Who are the bad guys in The Elder Scrolls?
- Thread starter zenoaugustus
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zenoaugustus said:
Well, it can probably be simplified that The Empire is more or less the good guys as they are bringing order, stability, rule of law, and a degree of peace to Tamriel. This is why the demise of the Emperor was a bad thing, as was his imprisonment in Arena. Their most ambigious role was in Daggerfall, but then again Daggerfall was also war torn and sort of shows exactly why all of these racial-nations being independant probably doesn't represent the greater good. Sure The Empire has flaws, there is no such thing as a Utopia, but I think overall it represents the good guys.
The Daedric Lords are evil for the most part, but it should be noted that most of them are like forces of nature, and if I remember from some of the things you find out in other games there is usually a reason for everything they do. A lot of those acts of evil wind up benefitting humanity in the long run. Even Sithis can be argued to be a good guy in some respects, The Dark Brotherhood being somewhat similar to the assasins in "Wanted" with most of the contracts being against bad people, or in some way influancing events to harm bad people even if the victim is innocent.
Truthfully in Skyrim Namira, Boenthia, and Mephala (with the Ebony Blade) seem to be the most evil, in general the rest of them have you ultimatly going after bad guys, or just leaping around like a monkey for their personal lulz at the worst.
As far as the elves being the bad guys, I get a definate Melnobenean vibe from the entire thing. If you ever read Michael Moorcock's writings the cycle starts with John Daker being summoned to fill the role of the Erekose and save a world from this race called the Eldren, he's pretty much handed the fantasy trappings of the super powerful magic sword, and the hand of a beautiful princess. In the course of doing this he decides humanity are the bad guys and decides to commit genocide on them instead. It turns out (as you find out later) that the forces that sent him there did so because of what The Eldren were going to become and this was a point where they could have been stopped. The rest of the cycle of stories (pretty much his entire works) is about John being reincarnated as a bunch of usually tortured heroes (or villains) who may or may not realize what they are (depending on the incarnation) acting as basically the multiversal policeman/dog catcher/garbage dude. As you find out in Corum the Eldren, Melniboneans, Vadgagh, and others are known in another world as "elves" not that it should be a surprise. It's been a while but as a point of discussion you can peace together that the Eldren wound up leaving through various dimensional portals and wound up founding some very nasty groups that wound up causing ripples via demon and chaos worship, and so on throughout the entire multiverse.
There is no direct connection, but I generally get a vibe of casual cruelty from the Thalmor and given the demeanor of the high elves in previous games I get the impression this is not new for them. Consider them being on an isle and similar things and it seems like it's turning into that kind of a theme.
I anticipate that if the series continues they are going to be the bad guys at least for a game. I also imagine that if Bethesda ever has the tech you might see a game where you have to travel from land-to-land convincing all of these people who rebelled and decided to stand alone to get back together as an empire to give it another shot to fight a common enemy.
The way the Daedra are presented also seems very Moorcock-like, not to mention the portrayal of "The Ebony Blade" especially in this last game (which is a bit differant) which seems to be screaming "Stormbringer" albiet Elric rarely soul-sucked his allies intentionally, his sword tended to do that on it's own.
That's my thoughts at any rate, no direct connection, but I do think there are some vague design connections and a lot of inspiration, and they are moving in that direction.
Heck, even the Elven armor looks similar to how the Eldren (albiet not the dragon-plate of the Melniboneans) armor was described.
Everyone can look like a dick, depending on what side YOU are, and it varies from game to game, but if I had to point a finger and say "These are the bad guys", I would say the wild animals (ESPECIALLY CLIFF RACERS). No, really, those are the only creatures that are hostile to EVERYONE.
What, not a valid answer? Well, then, for the intelligent races, a close toss-up between the Imperials (Who have kept an Empire prosperous to them but which most other races didn't ask to be part off since the Second Era) and the Altmer, specifically the Thalmor. Screw those guys. Everything the Empire did well, they did badly, and everything the Empire did badly, they WANT to do just as badly.
But, as other people have said, there's not one clear jerk race. Every single race has its share of very nice people and complete monsters. Hmm, were have I heard this before? I think it was that one game called "Real Life". And that is why TES is my favourite series.
What, not a valid answer? Well, then, for the intelligent races, a close toss-up between the Imperials (Who have kept an Empire prosperous to them but which most other races didn't ask to be part off since the Second Era) and the Altmer, specifically the Thalmor. Screw those guys. Everything the Empire did well, they did badly, and everything the Empire did badly, they WANT to do just as badly.
But, as other people have said, there's not one clear jerk race. Every single race has its share of very nice people and complete monsters. Hmm, were have I heard this before? I think it was that one game called "Real Life". And that is why TES is my favourite series.
I'm pretty sure it's the protagonist. Always jumping around naked, stealing everything in sight, a kill list longer than any other being on Tamriel, worshiper of Daedra, looter of priceless artifacts, defiler of holy shrines, disturber of graves, cause of conflict, and hired thug of various criminal organizations.
The Knights of the Nine would disagree with you.poiumty said:
edit:seriously there was no way to defeat Umaril without Talos' help.
Titus Mede IIFat_Hippo said:
I actually liked him, but the Night Mother wanted him dead... I wasn't about to end as the traitorous Listener.
OT: The Thalmor are bad business, so were the Dunmer in Morrowind... I hated those Ordinators so much, I'm glad they voluntarily attacked me due to me wearing the Indoril Helmet. The Imperials are idiots... I know I'm digging my own grave since I'm playing as one... but they're not exactly evil. The Daedra Princes have always been the Evil Brand du jour, so it's the proverbial beating of a dead horse!
The Imperials are #1 on my Evil Empire list. They invade, kill a bunch of locals, occupy the area, tax the population, begin armed settlements, force their oppressive laws on on the population to make sure the Haves keep having and the Have-Nots never get the opportunity to improve their lot in life. "The Empire is good for business, and business is good for Skyrim" - so says Skyrim's bourgeois. They're the neocons of Mundus.
I would have been sympathetic toward the Stormcloaks, except they started using nuclear weapons. When Ulfric used his Thu'um for an assassination, he placed himself on a rung below the dragons. The dragons knew enough to just lose the fight and continue living safely in whatever afterlife there is for dragons - if they wanted to they could have used their Voice on a massive scale for political gain and messed up all creation in the process. As an organization, the Stormcloaks lean toward the Good side of Neutral, but I won't support the current leadership.
The Thalmor are pretty bad too, in a crusading zealot kind of way, but they are less prolific and aggressive than the Imperials. Their SOP seems to be "follow our religion or we'll kill half of you and send the other half to Guantanamo". But they are not building giant fleets of warships to colonize the world and crush it under their jackboots like the Imperials are - they only seem interested in maintaining cultural influence throughout the lands close to their capitol and using Nordic lands as a buffer against Imperial aggression.
Any merchants who sell Glass armor or weapons, and the adventurers who use them, are part of a planet-destroying war machine. Glass comes from the sap of ancient, magical trees, and when those trees are cut down the surrounding area becomes a desert. The hero of the oblivion crisis wasn't a good person so much as they were eliminating the competition they would face in their afterlife as a Daedric Prince.
Once upon a time, Azura, Mehrunes Dagon, Clavicus Vile, Sheogorath, and the rest very well may have been mortal adventurers. If the setting's physics didn't allow for mortals to ascend to divinity, I'd wager the tools of kagrenac could not have been manufactured and the Dwemer would still be alive.
I would have been sympathetic toward the Stormcloaks, except they started using nuclear weapons. When Ulfric used his Thu'um for an assassination, he placed himself on a rung below the dragons. The dragons knew enough to just lose the fight and continue living safely in whatever afterlife there is for dragons - if they wanted to they could have used their Voice on a massive scale for political gain and messed up all creation in the process. As an organization, the Stormcloaks lean toward the Good side of Neutral, but I won't support the current leadership.
The Thalmor are pretty bad too, in a crusading zealot kind of way, but they are less prolific and aggressive than the Imperials. Their SOP seems to be "follow our religion or we'll kill half of you and send the other half to Guantanamo". But they are not building giant fleets of warships to colonize the world and crush it under their jackboots like the Imperials are - they only seem interested in maintaining cultural influence throughout the lands close to their capitol and using Nordic lands as a buffer against Imperial aggression.
Any merchants who sell Glass armor or weapons, and the adventurers who use them, are part of a planet-destroying war machine. Glass comes from the sap of ancient, magical trees, and when those trees are cut down the surrounding area becomes a desert. The hero of the oblivion crisis wasn't a good person so much as they were eliminating the competition they would face in their afterlife as a Daedric Prince.
After reading many books in and about Oblivion, I think that is precisely how it works. Mortals of sufficiently high level become Daedric Lords when they die.poiumty said:
Once upon a time, Azura, Mehrunes Dagon, Clavicus Vile, Sheogorath, and the rest very well may have been mortal adventurers. If the setting's physics didn't allow for mortals to ascend to divinity, I'd wager the tools of kagrenac could not have been manufactured and the Dwemer would still be alive.
Lets not forget that the Black Marsh (Argonians) invaded Morrowind, right after their country was crippled by a Volcanic eruption, and the Nords and the Orcs were attacking before that. Every race seems to have it's 'bad guys' stages.
Given that all of the Elder Scrolls antagonists wanted to destroy or take over the world, they are all pretty close on the evil scale. Dragons are starting to get annoying with their random attacks, so I'll say them.
