Whore of the Orient Title Deemed Racist by City Councilor

[Shamanic Rhythm]

As a huge fan of Edward Said, I can kind of see the problem. I knew the term oriental was a bit of a slur, but the problem it's presented always seemed to me to be more in the way of generalisation than targeted insult. After all, it wasn't just used for the Chinese. At times, it's been used for pretty much everywhere east of Europe. The most damaging aspect of it historically has been in this perception that all of Asia is the same.

Of course, anyone should be allowed to use whatever words they want for a creative project. Just so long as they're using it to deliberate effect with understanding of the word's history and connotations. The same should go for everyday conversation as well, mind you.

The difference is that Said was pointing out that there is a history in Western literature of casual stereotyping involving the Middle and Far East as the 'other'. 'Orientalism' was simply the title he chose for the project, drawing on terms traditionally used to oppose East and West (Orient vs Occident). What this guy is basically trying to argue is that the word 'Orient' is being used pejoratively, like the N word. It's a fairly massive leap to go from one to the other.

 

[senobit]

Wow, being half Chinese I had no idea I was suppose to be offended by the term oriental

 

[saintdane05]

But guys! Don't you know?
<youtube=RovF1zsDoeM>

 

[Glass Joe]

I hate these pseudo-intellectual white teenagers who think that just because they say a word isn't offensive that just makes it so. Hey you dumb jerks, referring to "the orient" is a way to otherize Asia and is totally ethnocentric. It glorifies a time period when Asia was under the boot of imperialism by trying to normalize their racist, imperialist vernacular. If you casually use the words orient or oriental, guess what, you act ignorant and are definitely racist. To Asians who don't get offended: don't apologize for these racist assholes, they don't need your permission to act like morons.

Why does my country just kinda suck right now? Like, we have a shit Prime Minister, an over sensitive game classification board, terrible internet, and now we have someone saying that the word Orient is now on par with "******". FUCK, next I guess Slav will be an offensive term, or Anglo, or Middle Eastern.

You know this whole "certain words cannot be used" shit is starting to get a little pedantic.

He didn't say it was on par with the N-word, he said it was similar, which is true because it is a fucking racist vernacular. Also nobody says you can't say racist things, they just don't want to publicly finance shit that is inconsiderate of Asians.

 

[Seydaman]

If they changed it, I would offended by how they are trying to be inoffensive, and would file to have the newly offensive name changed.

More OT: That's dumb. Since when was oriental or the orient at all insulting? I've never heard that anywhere.

EDIT: And treating the oriental/orient as a word that is offensive will only cause it to become offensive. It's counter-productive and only makes a word more hurtful.

It's why I laughed when I heard "Monday" (Yes, really) used as a racial slur. It's just too funny.

 

[drschplatt]

The woman needs to educate herself a little more. Orient is not insulting or offensive. It's simply a modernization of Dioecesis Orientis. This is the name of the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire. Over the years it eventually became a blanket term for the East as used by western cultures. To even pretend that it has the same connotation as the word "******" is ridiculous. *****, gook, Charlie, Chinaman, lemon, Bodie, nip, nipper, yolkie, etc. But Orient? Grow up.

I've never heard of anyone getting their panties in a wad over the use of the term.

~signed, some random person living in Taiwan

Perhaps you ought to educate yourself a little. The N word is itself is an anglicisation(sic)of the latin(sic) word for black via Spanish and Portuguese. I wouldn't suggest calling a black person that and then trying to say its OK because its latin(sic). The origin of the word is somewhat unimportant to the current pejorative, or otherwise, use of the word.

And the word, which indeed comes from the Latin "niger" was very much originally used to describe a physical trait and from the beginning, was meant to be discriminatory in it's very nature. Orientis is the name of the guy who ruled over the Dioecesis. It's a locational noun only and does not describe a people group. It was never intended to be discriminatory and is not to this day. I'm not Asian and I live in what's considered the Orient. My wife is Asian and she's in the Orient. So, why on earth would it be derogatory towards Asians when both Asians and non-Asians are part of the same reference group?

That's why some people consider "African-america" less offensive than "darkie" because one is a locational noun dependent on origins and placement and the other is drawing attention to a physical trait as the differing point. That's a major difference and why my point is valid. Trying to compare words that were used originally to be a disparaging declaration of the differences in physical traits, with those that were used in the same way the word America is taken from the name Amerigo Vespucci, just doesn't hold water.

 

[bug_of_war]

He didn't say it was on par with the N-word, he said it was similar, which is true because it is a fucking racist vernacular. Also nobody says you can't say racist things, they just don't want to publicly finance shit that is inconsiderate of Asians.

How is Oriental a racial slur? This is literally the first time I've ever heard ANYONE say that it is, and considering that there are restaurants in my state that use "orient" in some form or another in their name it makes literally no sense as to why it's now all of a sudden a bad word.

Also, the game is called "Whore of the Orient" not "The Oriental Whore", what if the main character or antagonist really is a prostitute from an Oriental country?

I hate these pseudo-intellectual white teenagers who think that just because they say a word isn't offensive that just makes it so. Hey you dumb jerks, referring to "the orient" is a way to otherize Asia and is totally ethnocentric. It glorifies a time period when Asia was under the boot of imperialism by trying to normalize their racist, imperialist vernacular. If you casually use the words orient or oriental, guess what, you act ignorant and are definitely racist. To Asians who don't get offended: don't apologize for these racist assholes, they don't need your permission to act like morons.

How do you know I'm white? Or a Teenager? And how do you know others are? That in itself is racist and ignorant on your half assuming that anyone whom argues against the term being a racial slur is automatically a white teenager. "otherize Asia and is totally ethnocentric" This sentence makes no sense.

 

[Caffiene]

Jieh-Yung Lo, a councilor for the Australian city of Monash

Minor correction/clarification: The councilor works for a council named "City of Monash", but its just the historic name for a local council for one of the suburbs of Melbourne. There is no actual Australian city named Monash afaik.

As far as the actual content of the news... Yes. The term is archaic and is a reminder of what for some could be seen as a painful time. Considering that that is presumably the whole point (ie, the game is set in the past in a time and place with a lot going, not all of it good) I dont see how it is relevant to say that "people don't want or need to have that dragged up."

Some people who lived through World War 2 probably dont want to be reminded of that either, but that doesnt make it offensive to mention the war. If there is any associated racism, he has done a very poor job at actually describing why the name is offensive.

 

[Abomination]

Just had a conversation with some of my Asian co-workers, one from Taiwan, one from Hong Kong, one from India, one from Indonesia, one from South Korea, and one from Singapore and all agreed that Orient and Oriental are in no way, shape, or form racist. The only one of them who would not find the term "Oriental" suitable as a descriptor for themselves was the Indian individual stating that it's clear he is not from the "Orient" so to call him that would not be so much offensive as just grossly incorrect.

Take note that all of these people questioned were under the age of 40 - perhaps that has something to do with it? Only old people can remember when "Oriental" was supposedly used as a racial slur?

If so, good, now the word is no longer offensive because it's not being used in an offensive manner. It is not considered a bad thing for an individual to be from the Orient. It's just a geographical descriptor. No more or no less offensive than calling someone Scandanavian or Eastern European.

 

[mduncan50]

I'm tempted to go down the street to the Chinese food restaurant and tell all of those Asian folk how slurrious they are. Name of the place? Oriental Kitchen.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Huh.
I know "orient" and "oriental" are old terms, no longer used and probably not considered correct, but I didn't know they were considered racist or offensive or whatnot. I always thought it was just an old word for Asia.
Is this a widely held view, or is this chap just being a prat?

Well, using the "O-Word" to describe someone is pretty much like using the N-Word.

However, I've always been a bit fuzzy on other uses of the word - like the Orient Express, or as a term for certain types of food. While Japanese, Chinese, and Korean food all have their differences, they do share certain common elements that make a word that lumps that particular part of Asia together useful when discussing dinner.

So... since the video game is talking about a person, it is technically racist. Assuming that the prostitute in question is of some sort of Asian decent - Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or some other nation/culture in that area that I have failed to list.

On the other hand, if it is about a Caucasian prostitute who works at an establishment called the Orient but located someone in America or Europe, then... I'm unsure.

....

I still want to play this game. I can't wait for its release, whatever its name ends up being.

 

[Vivid Kazumi]

If memory serve's right, the city in which this game take's place was commonly refered to as the "whore of the oreint".
I'm guessing this is just another politician that slept through world history?

 

[drschplatt]

Well, using the "O-Word" to describe someone is pretty much like using the N-Word.

According to the dozens of Asian people I have asked, it is not the same. Also, according to both the history and definition of the word, it is not the same. Orient is a locational identifier that when used in the contexts of individuals, can include any race, nationality and belief system. I am not Asian and I live in the Orient. Oriental simply references some object that comes from the East.

So... since the video game is talking about a person, it is technically racist. Assuming that the prostitute in question is of some sort of Asian decent - Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or some other nation/culture in that area that I have failed to list.

If you want to use the word "technically" then the exact opposite is true. Used "technically" it is anything but racist as it in no way identifies with race. A white person wearing culturally eastern clothing can be accurately described as being Oriental in appearance. A whore of the orient is simply a whore operating somewhere in the East. They could be black, white, pink, purple, or a dog for all we know or care.

I live in Asia and I keep asking Asian people if it's offensive and they all keep saying, "no, why would it be?" The only people that seem offended by it are people who aren't even referenced by the term. I suppose their might be a small number of people who are offended by it in the same way some people who live in the northern part of the USA might be offended by being called a "Yank" in the south. It is in no way on the same level as calling someone a "******." I doubt you will find many black people who are not offended by that unlike the term "oriental."

 

[EvilRoy]

Huh.
I know "orient" and "oriental" are old terms, no longer used and probably not considered correct, but I didn't know they were considered racist or offensive or whatnot. I always thought it was just an old word for Asia.
Is this a widely held view, or is this chap just being a prat?

On the other hand, if it is about a Caucasian prostitute who works at an establishment called the Orient but located someone in America or Europe, then... I'm unsure.

It was really irritating to properly research thanks to this news story, but Shanghai was colloquially referred to as "The Whore of the Orient" and "Paris of the East" in the 20's and 30's. Shanghai used to be an extremely decadent place, its affluence due to acting as the focal point for the opium trade. Thanks to this there was a massive amount of organized crime and all the whorehouses and liquor dens one might expect to accompany it.

Unfortunately I can't find the original source, but the quote "If God allows Shanghai to endure, he will owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology" explains pretty clearly what kind of place it was.

Edit:

Found it, sort of. Apparently that quote comes from the missionaries dispatched to that part of the world. The more I read into it the more it sounds like a worse version of 40's and 50's New York. Looks really rich on top, crushing poverty and substance abuse on the bottom.

 

[Gentleman Adventurer]

Now I have to make my counter game the "Trollop of Cathay" to jump on the ye olde time words train.

But really, people need to just drop the idea that "offending" them is some kind of huge crime and that not being offended is some kind of human right.

 

[Darks63]

Called it.

Whore of the Orient?

Well that title seems certain to get changed before release. Leaving aside the obvious, 'Orient' is a somewhat archaic term, and regarded as mildly offensive by some these days.

If I knew it two years ago then sure as shit so did the developer, and if he didn't... well, he should have and he does now. Let's not mount our hobby horses for another round of the Free Speech Crusade. He knew this was going to cause offense.

It's not considered a racist term though, heck we have oriental noodles on the store shelves. It sounds more like this guy is stirring crap for some kind of personal gain, probably his position.
I hope he gers fined for wasting the international humans rights time.

I agree sounds like a case of a politician who is trying to draw attention away from local issues they cant or won't solve or to draw attention away from themselves on to something else.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

The woman needs to educate herself a little more. Orient is not insulting or offensive. It's simply a modernization of Dioecesis Orientis. This is the name of the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire. Over the years it eventually became a blanket term for the East as used by western cultures. To even pretend that it has the same connotation as the word "******" is ridiculous. *****, gook, Charlie, Chinaman, lemon, Bodie, nip, nipper, yolkie, etc. But Orient? Grow up.

I've never heard of anyone getting their panties in a wad over the use of the term.

~signed, some random person living in Taiwan

Is chinaman really that offensive? Old and a bit baffling perhaps, but it seems like a description more than anything.