Why are people so dumb about veganism?

[Silvanus]

No, cupcake, you don't know everything there is to know, and I don't want to hear a word about harm elimination until you've seen for yourself what happens when Bambi or Thumper get caught in a combine harvester.

Wait, why wouldn't vegans care about that?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Wait, why wouldn't vegans care about that?

I'm sure most would. There's certainly room there for conversation about models of harm reduction versus harm elimination, the ethics of harm as direct consequence versus indirect, and preference versus utility and necessity.

That is, if most vegans were so equipped to have that conversation, had put real thought into their own positions and the implications thereof, and were aware they're neither omniscient nor the bearers of absolute truth on relevant topics. In my experience, most aren't by a long shot, and are dangerously under-informed on salient issues, in some cases to the point of supporting policy positions that are dramatically more harmful than even the status quo.

 

[Seanchaidh]

It's entirely up to you what you draw from that. I'm not presupposing any kind of outcome. But I really hate these pseudo-dominionist arguments about the natural order of humans and animals. We are not special, as animals go. We were not made in the image of God on the 6th day and granted special divine dispensation to eat everything made on the 4th and 5th day. We evolved from apes who ate whatever they could find and lived in fear of being eaten themselves. We don't have to stay apes forever if we don't want to.

What's the matter with being an ape?

Reading over that, I couldn't help but think, "Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit!"

This is very true. Ultimately, animal rights are a matter of arbitrary human sympathy. When it comes to human beings, the capacity for both solidarity and for fighting back is far more salient.

Sure I guess, but humans are also pretty objectively terrible at solidarity. Often, human rights also come down to a matter of arbitrary sympathy, which is why marginalised groups are constantly required to make themselves amenable to their oppressors in the hopes of eliciting sympathy.

If solidarity only comes with the explicit expectation that entering into solidarity will benefit you down the line, then it's pretty useless.

Well yes, humans have been pretty objectively terrible at organizing themselves in ways that do not shock the conscience.

 

[Silvanus]

That is, if most vegans were so equipped to have that conversation, had put real thought into their own positions and the implications thereof, and were aware they're neither omniscient nor the bearers of absolute truth on relevant topics. In my experience, most aren't by a long shot, and are dangerously under-informed on salient issues, in some cases to the point of supporting policy positions that are dramatically more harmful than even the status quo.

Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

My only problem with veganism is that it feels like an inadequate solution to complex problems. Like... everyone not eating meat isn't going to stop deforestation, since the land-owners will just sell it to someone else. Faux furs and leathers are just plastic, with all the environmental problems that entails through their production and consumption. Refusal to support ANY kind of animal product can negatively impact native groups who have been sustainably hunting for thousands of years and sell meat/leather/bone to survive. Crops, particularly imported ones, can be grown in unsanitary conditions or through slave labour, while 'ethical' sources can be hard to come by or too expensive. The rise in demand for a vegan alternative can cause serious damage to plants/animals dependent on that alternative through over-farming. Common misinformation can prevent people from supporting actual ethical products or alternatives, as seen with the - weirdly heated - debate among vegan groups around Honey.

And that's only a handful of the issues. Now, I have nothing against vegans - and indeed, strongly believe that everyone should be more conscious of what they consume and where it came from - but I myself just can't support it due to the flaws it has. As a dietary philosophy, it feels like it's too focused on addressing the symptoms rather than the cause, and all the talking up of it as being 'ethical' consumption just obfuscates the issue. As I've told my vegan friends, 'just because it's vegan, doesn't mean it's ethical'.

...I mean, look at Skittles. They're vegan, but I'm pretty sure the Mars company hasn't been classified as an 'ethical' corporation since the child slave labour and deforestation accusations.

 

[Silvanus]

My only problem with veganism is that it feels like an inadequate solution to complex problems. Like... everyone not eating meat isn't going to stop deforestation, since the land-owners will just sell it to someone else.

Who on earth believes it would stop deforestation? It would decrease demand, and thus lessen it. It's not a valid criticism to say this one approach wouldn't entirely 100% fix the problem, even though it would help.

Faux furs and leathers are just plastic, with all the environmental problems that entails through their production and consumption.

So buy from ethical manufacturers or ones with low impact. Such things exist. This is no reason whatsoever to default to leather & fur; it's just a reason to avoid environmentally-damaging industries.

Refusal to support ANY kind of animal product can negatively impact native groups who have been sustainably hunting for thousands of years and sell meat/leather/bone to survive.

Uhrm, these communities are not the main beneficiaries of the meat industry. The meat industry could reduce in size by 99% and these communities would be unaffected.

Crops, particularly imported ones, can be grown in unsanitary conditions or through slave labour, while 'ethical' sources can be hard to come by or too expensive. The rise in demand for a vegan alternative can cause serious damage to plants/animals dependent on that alternative through over-farming. Common misinformation can prevent people from supporting actual ethical products or alternatives, as seen with the - weirdly heated - debate among vegan groups around Honey.

So do your research and choose the alternatives better. This is just a reason to avoid unethical business/ industrial practices, and that reason applies whether or not you eat meat. This does not constitute a reason to eat meat.

And that's only a handful of the issues. Now, I have nothing against vegans - and indeed, strongly believe that everyone should be more conscious of what they consume and where it came from - but I myself just can't support it due to the flaws it has. As a dietary philosophy, it feels like it's too focused on addressing the symptoms rather than the cause, and all the talking up of it as being 'ethical' consumption just obfuscates the issue. As I've told my vegan friends, 'just because it's vegan, doesn't mean it's ethical'.

...I mean, look at Skittles. They're vegan, but I'm pretty sure the Mars company hasn't been classified as an 'ethical' corporation since the child slave labour and deforestation accusations.

I'm sorry, but this is a really poor rationale. Obviously something being vegan doesn't automatically mean its ethical in other respects-- why would it? We don't expect that of any other ethical position! Someone not being a murderer doesn't mean they're ethical, either, but that's no reason to give up on avoiding murder!

Nothing you've put forward is actually a flaw in veganism, or a reason to eat meat. These are merely reasons to approach other aspects of industry with ethical decision-making as well.

Why on earth would you let the existence of other ethical issues convince you not to address a specific one!? Hell, if a company doesn't take part in slave labour, that doesn't mean they're all-round ethical, either! Does that constitute a "flaw" in the position of avoiding slave-labour? Obviously not!

 

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

I might be misinformed, but I've read that of a few places which have introduced plant-based alternatives with tag lines like "impossible" meat, it's actually worse for you than the meat it's trying to replace due to the extra processing involved to get it there.

They tend to be quite high in salt. I wouldn't say that, for example, vegetarian sausages are going to be worse than meat sausages, because meat sausages are made up of the shit they scrape off the floor and need to disguise as food.

Unprocessed meat isn't necessarily unhealthy (AFAIK), but I don't think health reasons are really why most people who abstain from meat eating do so.

Some food for thought [https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-how-healthy-are-these-meatless-burgers-2019081517448] on it but yeah, basically it?s a matter of what?s more important basis to the individual: environmental health or their own. Also the plant based ?meat? isn?t just meant as a ?sausage? substitute; AFAIK it?s basically an alternative to any meat product which would include hamburger, steak, chicken, etc.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either. Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed. The awareness level of most vegans I engage, begins and ends with topical understanding of factory farming, animal testing, overfishing, poaching, pesticides, GMO's, practices like gavage, and other high-profile issues. Key terms, "topical" and "high profile".

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

i think vegans just get a bad rep because the hard core ones do stupid shit like call milk "cow lactations" then wonder why we dont suddenly jump on board.

Theres a vegan guy i tease in work, but only in fun. good on you if you have the will power

 

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either.

And the average vegan is? Or is it just the assholes.

Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed..

I have to disagree there. Since going vegetarian I've been lectured by a bunch of people on things like protein and iron, ironically from people who are overweight and inactive with terrible diets just trying to justify their 2-3 servings of meat a day. While I actually track my micro and macro nutrients and calories and am very active. I think most vegetarians or vegans I know have been lectured at least once. Usually just by someone who noticed them not eating meat. If you think meat eaters can't be smug you're very mistaken.

 

[Silvanus]

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either. Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed.

Right, so this boils down to stereotyping again, then.

I'd also comment on the lack of self-awareness required to boorishly lecture others about their dietary decisions in one post, and then excoriate others for boorishly lecturing people in the next post.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

@Silvanus - Quotes are borked for me, because the forums Just Plain Work.

Who on earth believes it would stop deforestation? It would decrease demand, and thus lessen it. It's not a valid criticism to say this one approach wouldn't entirely 100% fix the problem, even though it would help.

...Obviously not you, but hey, you're not all vegans? [sub]unless you are all vegans, in which case, tell Steven I still don't like Tofu and no matter how hard he tries I never will[/sub]

And who says it'd help?

So buy from ethical manufacturers or ones with low impact. Such things exist. This is no reason whatsoever to default to leather & fur; it's just a reason to avoid environmentally-damaging industries.

...I mean, if we're looking long-term, real fur/leather is the best choice, since it's highly durable, has low impact, doesn't release microplastics into the environment, is biodegradable so easily disposed of...

But, maybe it's just me. Never been a fan of trying to find alternatives to a proven method when even the best alternatives have problems. Just avoid leather/fur, real or faux if you need to. It's only fashion.

Uhrm, these communities are not the main beneficiaries of the meat industry. The meat industry could reduce in size by 99% and these communities would be unaffected.

Man, it's almost like I was being VERY SPECIFIC there or something, and wasn't talking about the meat industry as a whole!

So do your research and choose the alternatives better. This is just a reason to avoid unethical business/ industrial practices, and that reason applies whether or not you eat meat. This does not constitute a reason to eat meat.

...Why are you telling me this? Go tell that to all the vegans who DON'T DO THEIR RESEARCH! WHO ARE THE PEOPLE I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT!

C'mon man, you're better than this.

I'm sorry, but this is a really poor rationale. Obviously something being vegan doesn't automatically mean its ethical in other respects why would it? We don't expect that of any other ethical position! Someone not being a murderer doesn't mean they're ethical, either, but that's no reason to give up on avoiding murder!

...Yeah, but that also doesn't mean you're exempt from being criticized for your unethical behaviour despite your abstinence from murder.

Nothing you've put forward is actually a flaw in veganism, or a reason to eat meat. These are merely reasons to approach other aspects of industry with ethical decision-making as well.

Why on earth would you let the existence of other ethical issues convince you not to address a specific one!? Hell, if a company doesn't take part in slave labour, that doesn't mean they're all-round ethical, either! Does that constitute a "flaw" in the position of avoiding slave-labour? Obviously not!

I never said they were reasons to eat meat either (well, maybe the 'buy meat from native groups to support them' but that's a bit of a narrow market). Granted, I eat meat, but that's a personal choice I don't really force on others, since appropriately sourced meat can be expensive and hard to come by.

What I did say, was that my problem with veganism is that it doesn't address a specific one. It takes on the symptoms, not the greasy, corrupt heart of the root cause. 'Don't consume animal products' is a feel-good, personal endeavor, that does nothing to address the whole 'Consumption Culture is so corrupt, excessive and unchecked that rampant animal and human rights abuses are the norm' that ethical consumption should be focused on tackling.

...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Right, so this boils down to stereotyping again, then.

I call it personal experience after an adult lifetime of dealing with this shit, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I'd also comment on the lack of self-awareness required to boorishly lecture others about their dietary decisions in one post, and then excoriate others for boorishly lecturing people in the next post.

I'm not lecturing anyone about their dietary choices. I'm all for ethical consumption and harm reduction, and make no bones about the developed world being constructed upon unsustainable, unethical consumption, and that sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost. I'm criticizing ignorance, hubris, hypocrisy, and thought termination, and have from the beginning. It's rather interesting you would conflate the two, after I would like to believe I've made myself clear in each post, especially the parts of which you quoted.

 

[McElroy]

...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

What you wanna and don't wanna do fluctuates from day to day, even hour to hour. Somebody following a restrictive diet needs a real reason to do it. If one doesn't give a shit it will feel dumb to restrict oneself.

 

[Baffle]

...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

But it is an ethical decision (for me). I mean, I used to enjoy eating meat, and I miss certain foods (chicken overcooked until it's really dry on a Foreman Grill mostly). I never preach on eating meat, and unless someone asks I don't mention it. But it's still an ethical decision, because I, personally, don't want to be responsible for what the meat production requires, and I feel that by eating the meat, I would be. It's not like I think I'm making a dent in the industry's profits or sticking it to the man, I'm just doing what feels, to me, like the right thing to do.

Obviously by saying this I've been a bit preachy, because that's what we're talking about. I would prefer it if no one ate meat, yes; but I'm not quite at the point of getting PETA posters printed up as place mats (though, come on, that's a good idea).

Edit: To be clear, I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat meat.

 

[Silvanus]

I call it personal experience after an adult lifetime of dealing with this shit, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Statistically insignificant anecdotalism, then.

I'm not lecturing anyone about their dietary choices. I'm all for ethical consumption and harm reduction, and make no bones about the developed world being constructed upon unsustainable, unethical consumption, and that sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost. I'm criticizing ignorance, hubris, hypocrisy, and thought termination, and have from the beginning. It's rather interesting you would conflate the two, after I would like to believe I've made myself clear in each post, especially the parts of which you quoted.

Bollocks: you've spent several posts soapboxing about how stupid you think vegans are. The criticisms haven't focused on the dietary choice itself, sure, but its singled people out and grouped them together by their dietary choice.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Reading over that, I couldn't help but think, "Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit!"

Well, the planet is literally dying around us. Being squeamish about eating human flesh is a bit self-indulgent, at this point