Why are we afraid of criticism?

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Erttheking

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Bolo The Great said:
erttheking said:
Bolo The Great said:
erttheking said:
To be perfectly honest I don't put much stock in video game journalism. It's kind of a mess and a joke. I don't really care what they think because their opinions aren't worth my time. If your point was just to say that journalists in this field are unprofessional and too up front and pushy about their political views, then I agree with you 100%. We will all benefit from that bullshit going away. But that wasn't what I thought you were talking about and what I was talking about. I'm talking more about the everyman, the people you talk with on the forums. Does it happen to you then?
Sometimes. You get one or two people who like to repeat the lines of the Gawkeratzi but honestly on the whole the community is much better than the press. Gamers don't say that nearly as much or nearly as loudly. So i guess if i had to answer yes or no i would say no, it does not happen from the community by and large. It is not overwhelming from ordinary gamers. The gaming public is pretty swell. Again it's a tiny vocal minority within the community i see do this, like any trolls or agenda group.

Well I'm glad we agree on the journalism point. Generally that's what I'm posting about though: community criticism comes in all forms. It's unprofessional by nature and so you get ALL the opinions. Most of what i would consider criticism comes from... critics and pundits with a soap-box. Community opinion is a different beast.
Well, I'm glad that we can agree on this matter. Heh, pretty nice when both sides can listen to reason isn't it?
Like I've said before i don't really consider this a 'sides' issue, that was part of the problem with the rhetoric coming out of the press. I'm just an individual gamer who has his own opinion, just like you. If people would stop being so adversarial and have a rigorous but respectful debate i think most would concede that there are points that need to be sorted in many areas and move on.

But instead people just want to fucking scream at each other and those who consider themselves professionals want the right to sling as much shit as possible. But as a community I'm very hopeful about gaming enthusiasts, that's why it irks me to see them get shit on so much by the people who are supposed to speak for them and that many look up to. As a community we have very diverse voices and I've spoken to people from every background you can think of. As a community we really don't have a problem because from what I've seen we are just a bunch of decent people, with a few awful people. You know, like the rest of society.

You are probably right to simply disregard the gaming press though. Seems like the safe choice. Write the fuckers off entirely.

[sub]Captcha: "Streams of Oceanus". That would be a wonderful name for a prog rock band :p[/sub]
Well when I say sides, I don't mean two sides in a war. I mean people who disagree with each other. I guess I don't put much stock in loading my words. And yeah, pretty much. We just let our emotions get the better of us sometimes...fairly often...we all need to just take a chill pill.

EDIT: I have to agree with Guppy. I misspoke earlier. I don't care what THOSE games journalists think. I put my trust in those who have earned it though. Thank God for Jim.
 

Melaphont

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erttheking said:
Fair point. But I think it's safe to say that it's hardly speculation that media does affect our outlook on life. Maybe not for people who go out of their way to make sure they have their facts, but for people who don't bother to double check facts. Something I think most people are guilty of, even if it's only sometimes. I gotta admit, I do it too.

Well yeah. Any media can do that. I'm pretty sure I said that myself. It's not a "Games made Misogyny 50% more acceptable thing" it's small little factors. Little things here and there that enforce unhealthy mindsets. They can even pop up in really good games, or be so small that 90% of the people who play the game don't even notice them. Like in Skyrim how there is a mission to slut sham a woman. Skyrim itself has a pretty positive portrayal of women, but that little tid bit is still a no-no. It doesn't help that things aren't divided into completely sexist or completely feminist. You can think that women should be on the front lines in the armed forces, should have equal representation in government, have reproductive rights, should not have to do deal with harassment, cat calls or jeering, but you can still call a woman who has sex a slut. It's not black and white. It's complicated. As for finding evidence, I'd have to do some looking around and I have work soon. I'll see if I can get something after that. Sorry about that.

I'm not saying that all offensive arts need to be curtailed, I'm saying that when media in mass portrays a certain group negatively and they're in the mast majority (See how Russians and Chinese are so commonly bad guys in modern military shooters) I definitely think we need to get away from that and do something else.

Fair enough, I'll have to do some research for that. Like I said before, it'll sadly take some time.

I wasn't even really thinking about Anita. Just people who get defensive whenever games are criticized about anything.

Well I have to disagree that there is a systematic issue, mainly in the sense that we're struggling to write good female characters (Characters in general really, so arguably it's part of a bigger whole) and arguably the whole "Dude bro" mindset that goes with mass appeal (Read, appealing to COD fans) that we can hopefully shake off.
Video games have a systemic issue with crappy narrative, we cant fix anything until we fix this, imo, because this is the key issue in some games, where you see these sexist issues(and it isnt limited to women by any means) or just terrible plot points in general. And yes, I agree the media effects us, but ALL of media effects us, not just the parts we disagree with. Which was my point. If you are an unhealthy environment and you adhere to more unhealthy things, then ya you will obtain an unhealthy mindset. However, nothing in video games, I think, actually create the unhealthy environment on the whole. And again though, I dont think there is any proof that shows that video games add more of X(insert your choice of morals or beliefs) into the pop culture pool.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Bolo The Great said:
That's my point. If you don't want to weed out the PR, the bullshit and the agendas just disengage from it entirely. People have that right. It's not the best reaction but it certainly would keep you sane.
I don't think it would do gamers any harm to learn to think about the things they read and expose themselves to contradictory points of view. It's intellectually healthy. Any time you find yourself retreating into or living in an echo chamber where the only things you are exposed to are the soothing voices of people who confirm the things you already believe, you're on the fast track to becoming a Very Stupid Human Being.

However, there are far better information streams people can dip into to challenge their preconceptions of the world than the fucking "gaming media", so if people want to stop reading it, it's probably a no harm no foul situation.
 

Melaphont

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Like in Skyrim how there is a mission to slut sham a woman. Skyrim itself has a pretty positive portrayal of women, but that little tid bit is still a no-no.
I JUST saw this, not sure why. I very much have a problem with this mindset if you are infering it shouldnt be in teh game. Do I think slut shaming is bad? Yes. Do I think these controversial issues should be off limits or put into "perfect" context in art or storytelling? No, absolutely not. Stuff like that shouldn't be off limits. If people play skyrim and then think slut shaming is ok... Well, I want to meet this person.
 

Guerilla

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erttheking said:
And for the hundredth time, Anita is NOT the main voice of feminism. I'd be willing to bet hard money that you don't follow feminism at all. You don't follow feminist blogs on Tumblr, feminist journals, youtube series. I'd be willing to bet your only exposure to feminism is Anita and what gaming journals print. I follow a friend's Tumblr. She is a massive feminist, constantly sharing posts from other feminist blogs. She rarely, if ever, comments on Anita. And when she does once in a blue moon, it's more about her being frustrated with all the harassment she is getting. Anita is BORING. She makes lousy argument, takes things out of context, this same feminist friend got mad at her when I talked to her about it. I am a feminist and I don't care about Anita. I desperately want her series to fade into obscurity and people to forget that she ever existed. But that won't happen. And I'll admit it, yes there is a lot of bullshit going on that comes from feminist origin. I'm not clear what's going on with Zoey Quinn, but the evidence that she's been up to questionable stuff is a long stronger than the evidence towards Anita. I can't get behind the people who defend her and there are plenty of feminists out there than are just plain sexist towards men. It hardly defines the movement though. And if I was just to take a wild guess, I think people are pretty frustrated with the argument about the extremists in the group because more often than not people assume those extremists are what they're all about, which is why they don't want to talk about them. It happens on both sides and is why I think this argument is so hostile.

You know, calling dissenting opinions whining and nagging, REALLY reflects badly on you. Also, 1. why can only women develop games with good female characters? Why can't men do it? 2. There are more than a few women in the industry already 3. more women would play games if gaming was more inclusive

And yeah, that was pretty fucking tasteless.
Anita is the main voice of feminism in gaming. Kotaku and RPS come second and they're just as terrible and greedy. As for feminism in general the top afaik are Jezebel and then there's tumblr which is a whole different can of worms [http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction].

Like I asked in the previous thread if you guys have any examples of gaming related feminists with more visibility than the ones I mentioned please share them (still waiting from the previous thread). Until then don't be surprised if the gaming community is frustrated at and rejects feminism given the kind of assholes that represent it and the way they treat both gamers and game creators. But that's the hypocrisy I'm talking about; feminists will never organize to publicly denounce these people but they're more than glad to use the typical by now No True Scotsman fallacy every time the movement is accused of extremism or irrationality.
 

x EvilErmine x

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Jumping straight in.

Because most criticism isn't constructive? Most of it is just whining and opinion. So one can only deal with so much of that thing before it gets old hat. I mean if more of it was constructive criticism then yeah it'd be fine because it'd be helpful rather than just whine whine whine.
 

Redd the Sock

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Criticism by its nature carries some level of judgmentalness within it. That can't really be helped as by criticizing, you are saying that something is lessor than you think it could be. The key words in that sentence are "you think" which open up a lot of problems. If people truly took criticism to heart, we'd all be in good health, have gotten top grades in school, and never watch reality TV. We're just a culture with a nature for individualism and not liking being told what to do, no matter what that is. Defensiveness becomes natural no matter if someone's mocking your favorite show, or extolling the endless harm your fast food diet is doing.

Online criticism exacerbates this because most criticism is made without any thought to who or what you're criticizing. People criticize something like rescuing a princess solely in the mindset of "I don't like it." It isn't just that something exists that doesn't appeal to me as a matter of taste. No, instead the story is somehow objectively worse because "I" don't like that part of it. It treats the medium as if it's personally yours, and things not to your liking are somehow making is worse for everyone, not just you. In that criticism, you treat others like they're there for you and your pleasure, not people free to make their own choices. This is usually not intentional, but language can get overly negative or overly broad. You've come down on something in such a way that comes off as hostile to it's existence, and disdainful of those that make and enjoy it. As I said in a recent thread with the same topic, there's a difference in saying you don't like Man of Steel because you don't like dark and emo, and disliking that they made a dark and emo Superman movie: the first accepting others' right to enjoy it for what it was, and the second acting like such a thing had less right to exist than what you wanted.

And that's the best case: online people are idiots arguing with incomplete and anecdotal information leading to wrong conclusions. Gaming isn't immune as criticism of the medium is based greatly on the AAA's actions without looking elsewhere. Few criticisms are unflawed, and people aren't afraid of being criticized if they point out a flaw in your argument. Now, as others have said, the critic becomes the one afraid of criticism. I mean, it's hardly limited to video games (just look at any political message board), but we all too often mistake high minder critique with armchair quarterbacking. This, more than anything holds back critique because the critique doesn't improve or adjust to new information. I can't envision getting away with crying misogyny or sexism just because someone rebutted your points in debate class.

It's also why people are tired of the topic. Too many people not wanting to talk about it so much as have everyone validate their thesis. Some, I think enjoy having something they can look down their nose at like superior beings, other just don't want any opinion that doesn't fit the "evil boys club" narrative. And if that's all the topic becomes, why have the same conversations again and again?
 

Ihateregistering1

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QuietlyListening said:
Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?
There's a big reason I'd say why general criticism about a game (ie. 'the graphics are bad', 'the writing stinks', 'the mechanics are poor', etc.) is very different from criticizing a game under the guise of "social issues".

If you say "I don't like the mechanics of Assassin's Creed" (I just pulled AC out of a hat here), and I say "well I like the mechanics", that's pretty much the end of it, we have differing opinions on the mechanics.

On the other hand, if you say "I don't like Assassin's Creed because it's racist", what is the response? "Well I like Assassin's Creed because it's racist."? And if you don't think it's racist, now you're forced to defend why it isn't. And the reason you need to defend why it isn't is because, basically, the person claiming the game is racist is saying 1 of 2 things about those who like the game:
A: The game IS racist, those who like it are just too dumb/ignorant/'privileged' to see it. For pretty obvious reasons, people don't like that.
B: You know the game is racist but you play it anyway, which means that (at best) you're tolerant of racism, and (at worst) you're a racist yourself. People don't like that.

Criticizing through the lens of it being a social issue is, ultimately, an argument that you can't lose. Disagree that something is sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, etc? Well you just don't understand. Agree that something is _______ist, but play it and enjoy it anyway? You're tolerant of whatever ________ism we're talking about.
 

Robert B. Marks

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Okay, somebody's got to take the long view, and since I've been around for a while, I guess it's going to be me.

Back around 1996 or so, Jessica Mulligan started writing a column titled Biting the Hand, which was an industry insider column. Jessica was a rather interesting fellow, and I mean that in the most literal sense possible - she had started as a he and undergone a sex change. So, she had seen the boy's club from the inside, and then from the outside.

A lot of what she wrote about involved gender issues, and she did it at a time when game developers saw nothing wrong with a group trip to a strip club to talk business after a day at GDC. And, the outrage at what she was saying was...well...pretty much non-existent, from what I recall.

Flash forward to about 2000-2002, and I'm writing Garwulf's Corner, which was a computer games issues column. I didn't touch on feminist issues often, but I did touch on them, and once again, the outrage was...non-existent. And I can vouch for that personally. Over the course of the entire run of the column and thousands of letters received (both agreeing and disagreeing with me), I can count on one hand the number of people who became abusive or threatening - and none of them were about anything I had said about sexism.

(And Bolo, if you're talking about the case I THINK you're talking about, I remember and took part in that fight - that was a good one.)

Today, we have internet mobs. Something has changed. The discourse has definitely become more polarized and toxic.

Let me provide an example - we had a bunch of articles about gamers as an identity. Most of them made it clear that they weren't talking about the community as a whole, but instead about a group who were setting themselves above the rest, making value judgements about who or what a "real gamer" was, launching attacks on people who say things they don't like, etc., and pointing out that yes, that is probably on its way out. This was taken as an attack against the entire community, when most of the articles clearly were not and were specific on that count. I've seen this before - it happened in the video game violence debate a few years back (just before and around the time Jack Thompson was disbarred), where any moderate opinion got relegated to one extreme or the other (I got accused at least twice of trying to say that video games cause school shootings, when I was actually specifically debunking the idea).

I'd almost think this is a generational thing. If you haven't guessed, I'm a late Gen-Xer, born in the mid-1970s. We gamers did have a sense of isolation back then (well, in the 1990s - I was too young in 1978 to be a gamer) since everybody had yet to join us, as they would throughout the first decade of the 21st century. But our outlook was very inclusive - we didn't care who you were, how you played, what you played, or why you played - we only cared THAT you played (with exceptions made for fans of Custer's Revenge). When everybody else started playing electronic games, that isolation disappeared, and with it the gamer identity that I had became obsolete (because it was based in part on the isolation). I became just another player (if you ask me, that's actually better, and new gamer identities emerged like the professional gamers, etc.).

So, what's changed? How did we go from "I respectfully disagree" to "ONLINE LYNCH MOB!"?

Well, for one thing, it could be both an attempt to adapt the legacy of the identity that we had while reacting against us at the same time. The "real gamer" today is in many ways the polar opposite of the gamer from the 1990s. The "real gamer" today cares a great deal about who you are, what you play, why you play, etc., and has a very defensive "us vs. them" mentality (and, it does seem a bit weird to me that in the absence of an "us vs. them" in the greater community, they basically created one of their own). So, a criticism of the game gets taken as a criticism of the gamer, even when it is carefully worded not to be.

I also wonder if there's a cultural thing involving high school at play. In Canada, we did have cliques in high school, but there wasn't really any competition involved. Nobody cared what clique you were in, and none of the cliques cared about what any of the others were doing. So, it's easy for somebody like me to take a "live and let live" approach, since that's what I've known all my life. From what I've heard about the United States (particularly after the Columbine shootings), cliques in the U.S. are so important and competition between them is so fierce that if you're in an unpopular clique, you go through HELL. If people are recently out of that, it's easy to hold onto that when you should instead be letting go and enjoying the bigger world.

But, there's also something else. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but back when I went through university in the late '90s, we were proud of the fact that we were very hostile to misogyny, and were chipping away at sexism. If somebody had said around us back then some of the things that were said about Sarkeesian and Quinn now, they would have gotten their ass kicked by everybody in the room. Sometime in the last 15 years, a rape culture emerged with a lot of misogyny (and yes, I know the difference between sexism and misogyny), and I don't have a clue of where it came from. What I do know is that the primary "SJW" targets were the ones dealing with sexism in games and calling it out.

Frankly, the way things have changed disturb the hell out of me. Back when I was writing, it was a civil conversation, regardless of the topic. You could speak and write freely. Hell, I could safely put my email address at the bottom of every single column, so that my readers could write to me directly. Even back during the Jack Thompson violence in video games thing, people flying off the handle seemed to be the exception, rather than the rule. Today there are online lynch mobs. Where the hell did that come from?

I REALLY hope that this particular phase doesn't last very long. I want the freedom of speech without fear, and any topic open for discussion, back. How did it come to pass that this seems unreachable right now?
 

QuietlyListening

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Some interesting responses, and mostly on-topic! Thank you!

Some of my own thoughts.

1. To those complaining that they're tired of the discussion: The discussion is pretty easy to avoid. No one is yelling at you while you're playing the game, and even if you're the type to interact with the community, that participation is pretty much at your discretion. Don't want to talk about social issues? Don't go into social issue threads.

2. There seems to be this strange dichotomy set up between fun vs. issues. Like most media, I play games for a variety of reasons. Sometimes I want to think. Sometimes I want to laugh. Sometimes I just want to blow something up with an Ion Cannon. But while the discussion of social issues isn't necessarily "fun" how these issues are implemented (or not implemented) in games doesn't have to compromise anything of the design. Not every game has to address every issue. In fact, if done properly, you probably won't outright notice unless you're approaching the game with a critical eye. For instance, I didn't really notice that Lee was black in the Walking Dead Games. Well, I understood that he was black, but it wasn't a "this is the story of race in America" sort of understanding. It was subtle; some dialogue here, an interaction there. It didn't get me depressed about the game (there were plenty of other mechanics at work doing a fine job of that already), but it did send off a ping in my brain. Now I can't speak for others, but I greatly enjoyed this aspect of the game; it made the characters feel richer, their relationships deeper, and the game had a greater sense of verisimilitude.

Conversely, by approaching design with a mind towards social issues games can avoid certain pratfalls that might impede an enjoyable experience. Look at Dead or Alive. I'm pretty certain that the amount of work that was put into boob physics could have been productively spent elsewhere to make these games better. Or in Dishonored, the whole Callista bathing interaction was intensely awkward and actively detracted from my enjoyment of the game.

It's for these reasons why I actually like social criticism of games. It compels artists to put greater care into their work, not just through visuals and mechanics, the crunchy bits, but the fluff, the narrative, the less defined pieces of games that make them special, and make them worth playing.
 

Trunkage

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QuietlyListening said:
Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?
People usually make a connection with what they do and who they are. If you criticise what they do, they take it as a criticism of who they are. Sometimes you need to realise they are just criticising the action not you, the person
 

runequester

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People usually make a connection with what they do and who they are. If you criticise what they do, they take it as a criticism of who they are. Sometimes you need to realise they are just criticising the action not you, the person
I think people also tend to get caught up in the idea that if you "support" something, you must defend it 100% without any failure or question.
 

Robert B. Marks

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Ihateregistering1 said:
There's a big reason I'd say why general criticism about a game (ie. 'the graphics are bad', 'the writing stinks', 'the mechanics are poor', etc.) is very different from criticizing a game under the guise of "social issues".

If you say "I don't like the mechanics of Assassin's Creed" (I just pulled AC out of a hat here), and I say "well I like the mechanics", that's pretty much the end of it, we have differing opinions on the mechanics.

On the other hand, if you say "I don't like Assassin's Creed because it's racist", what is the response? "Well I like Assassin's Creed because it's racist."? And if you don't think it's racist, now you're forced to defend why it isn't. And the reason you need to defend why it isn't is because, basically, the person claiming the game is racist is saying 1 of 2 things about those who like the game:
A: The game IS racist, those who like it are just too dumb/ignorant/'privileged' to see it. For pretty obvious reasons, people don't like that.
B: You know the game is racist but you play it anyway, which means that (at best) you're tolerant of racism, and (at worst) you're a racist yourself. People don't like that.

Criticizing through the lens of it being a social issue is, ultimately, an argument that you can't lose. Disagree that something is sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, etc? Well you just don't understand. Agree that something is _______ist, but play it and enjoy it anyway? You're tolerant of whatever ________ism we're talking about.
Okay, seriously, I think you're adding value judgements where there are none.

Look, I'm a fan of Robert E. Howard, and I've read every single one of the original Conan stories. Most of the time, they're an easy read, but every now and then you get one that has what I call the "wall o'racism," and you run into a jarring line like "We can't let those black savages hurt a white woman like you." Yes, it's racist. Yes, the author was racist - everybody in the 1930s was. That doesn't mean that by enjoying the rest of the stories that I'm condoning the racism that sometimes appears (and there are some of his stories set in the real world where the racism and "white man's burden" is bad enough that I can't stomach it). But, still a fan - the man knew how to write!

I'm also a fan of Richard Wagner, who was antisemitic in ways that defy, well, basic sanity (and I really mean that - the man was nuts...you could make the argument that he was viciously antisemitic at the same time you could make the argument that he wasn't). But he wrote great music. And, for the record, I'm Jewish.

It is possible to separate the work from the artist. And, any work is made of several parts, and it is possible to separate one part from the others. It is your beliefs and actions that determine if you're a sexist or racist, not whether you enjoyed something with some questionable content.

And, to use your example of "I didn't like Assassin's Creed because it was racist," there is a third answer: "I see where you're coming from, and I can see how it could be taken that way, but it didn't bother me that much - the characters are well drawn, the gameplay was solid, and the story drew me in. It's disappointing that some stereotypes were a bit questionable, but hopefully they'll do better next time." That is not an answer that suggests you're a racist. It is possible to enjoy something without condoning its more troubling aspects.

If, on the other hand, you go with answer #4: "Yeah, but those brown people are sub-human and deserve that crap," then YES, you are a racist, and you should be very ashamed of yourself.

I would also point out that whether something is racist is not an absolute claim, but something that is up for discussion. There are cases where the racism is clear, but there are cases where it is not. I've defended Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness from people who called it racist by pointing out that not only were things really that bad in the Congo at the time, but Conrad was pulling his punches - drawing attention to how badly people have been laid low is not racist unless you suggest that something about their race drew them naturally there, which Conrad didn't.

So, if you think something isn't racist, you can disagree and provide an argument, and that doesn't make you a racist. That just makes you a critical thinker (which is a GOOD thing).
 

DementedSheep

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What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
 

wulf3n

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MarsAtlas said:
Reason 2: They feel that criticism of the game is criticism of them as a person.
To be fair, it's not uncommon for a "criticism" to attack the developer/player. I can link several if you would like.

OT: It's because "criticism" especially around political or social issues nigh on always devolves into insults from both sides.

There's also this rather humerus phenomena in which a person who criticises a game will be met with accusations of censorship, which the person will legitimately refute. However criticise the criticism and that very same person will accuse you of trying to censor them, even though they just finished pointing out how critiscm != censorship.
 

Melaphont

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Robert B. Marks said:
I dunno. I think simplifying the articles that were written, around the same time as all this stuff went down, was not written in the same style as back before all this. The stuff being talked about adds generalities to groups, where there need not be. This idea that there was a subset of gamers that were pandered to, prior to all this, and that their "days are coming to an end" is just a ridiculous notion, unless supported by facts. There is nothing that I see, where a certain subgroup was ever the "target" of the industry or any industry.

While I agree with you that those articles were not calling EVERYONE X, they were, imo for the most part fairly badly written and seemed to just be trying to circle the wagon's on a scarecrow to beat up the subculture that is gaming. There was inference that they were more epidemic then reality, and also seemed to infer they have the loudest voice, when it was the media giving them the loudest voice.

Also, the biggest problem, to me, is that those who initiate the claims or criticisms do not want their words criticized, which just riles up those who disagree with the talking points even more.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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theres criticism and theres compleinign for the sake of complaining

if your "criticism" isnt something that is going to make the game better, the game simply isnt meant for you

just because a game is not some sort of political comentary doesnt mean its worse as a game, same with painting, books, film, etc
 

Ihateregistering1

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Robert B. Marks said:
You bring up several good points (though for arguments sake I'm going to leave out the "well it was written in the 1930's" type stuff, since that's a whole different ball of wax).

The problem with "answer #3" is you're acknowledging that you think there are racist or offensive elements in the game, but if you don't think those are in the game, then we go right back to "well you don't understand". Now, maybe you truly don't, but people don't like to be told "well you're ignorant/dumb".

"I would also point out that whether something is racist is not an absolute claim, but something that is up for discussion."
I wholeheartedly agree, but let's be blunt: for a lot of people, there isn't much grey area here.

Likewise, if we're talking about living, breathing authors, directors, game developers, etc. then you get into the even more sticky situation of "well by buying their game/book/movie, you're giving them money, and thus not helping to show that their beliefs are wrong". For an example, look no further than the petitions to tell people not to see "Ender's Game", since it was written by Orson Scott Card, a die-hard anti-gay marriage advocate.

Anyway, gotta run, but my overall point was simply that the criticism of "this game is sexist" isn't the same thing as "this game has bad graphics".
 

Robert B. Marks

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Melaphont said:
Robert B. Marks said:
I dunno. I think simplifying the articles that were written, around the same time as all this stuff went down, was not written in the same style as back before all this. The stuff being talked about adds generalities to groups, where there need not be. This idea that there was a subset of gamers that were pandered to, prior to all this, and that their "days are coming to an end" is just a ridiculous notion, unless supported by facts. There is nothing that I see, where a certain subgroup was ever the "target" of the industry or any industry.

While I agree with you that those articles were not calling EVERYONE X, they were, imo for the most part fairly badly written and seemed to just be trying to circle the wagon's on a scarecrow to beat up the subculture that is gaming. There was inference that they were more epidemic then reality, and also seemed to infer they have the loudest voice, when it was the media giving them the loudest voice.

Also, the biggest problem, to me, is that those who initiate the claims or criticisms do not want their words criticized, which just riles up those who disagree with the talking points even more.
I'm not sure I agree...

First, when it comes to writing these things, #GamerGate moved quickly as a situation, and we do have people trying to fit into a 24-hour news cycle. So imagine for a moment seeing a vigorous attack by people identifying as gamers and claiming to be gamers against Zoe Quinn, and you have two or three hours to come to grips with how you're going to react and file the story. That's not going to lead to the best possible commentary. It just can't - there's not enough time. Just speaking for myself, after the chat logs came out it took three days for what they meant to sink in, and another two days for the shock to wear off and the reaction to sort itself out. So, that means that if I had written an article on Tuesday vs. if I had written an article today, they would be dramatically different from each other in tone and approach.

I'll agree - we saw some idiotic stuff. I can't say I was impressed with the Slate article that declared that game journalism was the thing that was dying, but didn't have so much as a single metric or statistic to illustrate or prove it. But, we also saw some very raw stuff, and once people have had a chance to calm down and get some perspective, I think a lot of the coverage will come across as being much better and less combative than it initially appeared.

As far as beating up the subculture that is gaming, though...sorry, but how were you expecting people to react in that situation? If a bunch of people start abusing and harassing female writers and developers in the name of journalism ethics - particularly those who aren't associated with the big studios or scandals of the past - the story is going to be the harassment, not the supposed justification. They reported on the action, which was what anybody would do.

As for your last point, I agree completely. The thing that bothered me the most about #GamerGate was the concerted effort to silence and literally drive out of the industry the "SJW"s - it was attempted censorship via internet mob. If somebody disagrees with Anita Sarkeesian, Bob Chipman or Jim Stirling, that's fine - there's nothing wrong with that. You want to make a counterpoint, do so - write it on a forum, a blog, or in an article. Add to the discussion! But don't try to silence them - that actually sounds like fascism, and it's definitely tyranny. Freedom of speech is there for everybody, even the people you disagree with...ESPECIALLY the people you disagree with.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
play a different game?