Why are we afraid of criticism?

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Hey, you know what...

This is a funny read to me. Who is afraid? I encounter the criticisms, and I'm unafraid. I point out the faults that I believe said criticism holds, and I'm met with a volley of off-point, distracting shaming language. Glass houses...

What's funny is that my views are actually fairly moderate. Have we considered that maybe the negative reaction to certain ideologically driven criticism is at least somewhat based on the quality of said criticism? Is that a possibility? There are certainly some who behave as though it's unassailable truth.

I'd be interested in talking earnestly with people about a given topic, providing they can refrain from insults and smugness. Nobody need take someones self-assigned-superiority seriously, and it's best kept to yourself.

Ah, fuck it. Let's continue with the amateur grade information warfare. Who wants to take the first crack at misrepresenting me? Oh, I actually think the OP did. That's good, there's no time to waste.

Your post utterly fails to account for the people screaming that those criticizing want censorship etc. They're the most obvious reason to say some are afraid of criticism. But of course if you acknowledged they exist you couldn't take personal offense and call ot a strawman of you...

"Screaming", are they? Yeh, I'm sure they are... It's fucking type, mate. If it's too loud for you, there's not much that can be done. Can you turn down the volume in your head, somehow? This looks an awful lot like a half-arsed attempt at misrepresentation, our word of the day!!!

Dammit!... I forgot to load the balloons and confetti into the trapdoor.

Are you sure that it's "fear" that's driving these people? Are you sure it's not annoyance? To me it feels a lot like I'm annoyed. I don't want to play amateur psychologist for everyone else... But I can't say I've seen much I'd describe as "fearful".

The "strawman" you refer to was ill-advised in type on my part. But, it's self-aware... #humour No offence taken.

Snip

Snip

Alright you two. According to the internet, there are about 1800 of you left in the entire world, and you two can't be assed to get along? Come on.

PS - You should probably be breeding.

I need more than survival imperative to get me in the mood.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I need more than survival imperative to get me in the mood.

I hear you. I've got you covered buddy.

Spoiler

 

[Panda Pandemic]

Hey, you know what...

This is a funny read to me. Who is afraid? I encounter the criticisms, and I'm unafraid. I point out the faults that I believe said criticism holds, and I'm met with a volley of off-point, distracting shaming language. Glass houses...

What's funny is that my views are actually fairly moderate. Have we considered that maybe the negative reaction to certain ideologically driven criticism is at least somewhat based on the quality of said criticism? Is that a possibility? There are certainly some who behave as though it's unassailable truth.

I'd be interested in talking earnestly with people about a given topic, providing they can refrain from insults and smugness. Nobody need take someones self-assigned-superiority seriously, and it's best kept to yourself.

Ah, fuck it. Let's continue with the amateur grade information warfare. Who wants to take the first crack at misrepresenting me? Oh, I actually think the OP did. That's good, there's no time to waste.

Your post utterly fails to account for the people screaming that those criticizing want censorship etc. They're the most obvious reason to say some are afraid of criticism. But of course if you acknowledged they exist you couldn't take personal offense and call ot a strawman of you...

"Screaming", are they? Yeh, I'm sure they are... It's fucking type, mate. If it's too loud for you, there's not much that can be done. Can you turn down the volume in your head, somehow? This looks an awful lot like a half-arsed attempt at misrepresentation, our word of the day!!!

Dammit!... I forgot to load the balloons and confetti into the trapdoor.

Considering it's typing I'd expect most people to infer it wasn't meant to be literal. It's about demeanor and the irrationality of leaping from criticism to a specific call for action that was never made.

Are you sure that it's "fear" that's driving these people? Are you sure it's not annoyance? To me it feels a lot like I'm annoyed. I don't want to play amateur psychologist for everyone else... But I can't say I've seen much I'd describe as "fearful".

Nothing rational is connecting the criticism received to a call for censorship. Pretty sure it isn't annoyance either.

And worrying about things never said sure seems to lean towards the fearful. When someone is worried people are gonna censor their games based off nothing that comes off as paranoid and a tad fearful

 

[Panda Pandemic]

Snip

Snip

Alright you two. According to the internet, there are about 1800 of you left in the entire world, and you two can't be assed to get along? Come on.

PS - You should probably be breeding.

*cough* If that's what they've been trying I think I see why our numbers are down. I do believe we're both male.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

*cough* If that's what they've been trying I think I see why our numbers are down. I do believe we're both male.

Now now. I'm quite certain that when animals are low in population some of them spontaneously change gender in order to procreate. I saw it on that episode of Jurassic Park. The one with the guy from The Omen in it.

 

[Netrigan]

Who is it that is afraid of criticism? You're talking about people whom, when they are challenged, respond by calling people misogynists and terrorists and lump them in with trolls, even when those people are clearly coming from an equalist perspective.

So you recommend that all races and genders get representative treatment in media. One in three games lead by white males, one in three by white females, one in six by a female of color, one in six by a man of color.


Well, can't say I agree but at least you want equality.

Dude. No. Equalist like, when you think that a person's race/gender/orientation/etc is irrelevant, and the gameplay/writing/game design of the person is what matters. So, like, the most free market that you can be.

So the kind of equality that has nothing really to do with equality. Gotcha.

The free market is not without its flaws. It can be stupidly short-sighted (see banks engaging in short-term profit taking by buying and selling defaulted debt... which crashed when no one actually paid off their bad debt). Its frequently blind to opportunties. It can be manipulated by monopolies. Its only as good and decent as the people within it. Its most ardent supporters call it the worst system ever created by man... except all the others.

The free market does not, nor has it ever, cared about equality in any form. It is not good nor evil. Just nor unjust. Its about the facilitation of commerce.

 

[Melaphont]

Who is it that is afraid of criticism? You're talking about people whom, when they are challenged, respond by calling people misogynists and terrorists and lump them in with trolls, even when those people are clearly coming from an equalist perspective.

So you recommend that all races and genders get representative treatment in media. One in three games lead by white males, one in three by white females, one in six by a female of color, one in six by a man of color.


Well, can't say I agree but at least you want equality.

Dude. No. Equalist like, when you think that a person's race/gender/orientation/etc is irrelevant, and the gameplay/writing/game design of the person is what matters. So, like, the most free market that you can be.

So the kind of equality that has nothing really to do with equality. Gotcha.

The free market is not without its flaws. It can be stupidly short-sighted (see banks engaging in short-term profit taking by buying and selling defaulted debt... which crashed when no one actually paid off their bad debt). Its frequently blind to opportunties. It can be manipulated by monopolies. Its only as good and decent as the people within it. Its most ardent supporters call it the worst system ever created by man... except all the others.

The free market does not, nor has it ever, cared about equality in any form. It is not good nor evil. Just nor unjust. Its about the facilitation of commerce.

The "free market" isn't that simple, dude. The market is capitalist and most of Europe and the America's are capitalist, but very few of them are straight up free markets. Also, no dictionary definition of a monopoly has existed without government help(or criminal activity) in some fashion. Microsoft was, according to a judge, having monopolistic powers, but it wasn't literally a monopoly, at least in the most rational sense. Economic markets are far from simple and putting the problem on the "free" market is a blind spot, I think.

 

[Netrigan]

Who is it that is afraid of criticism? You're talking about people whom, when they are challenged, respond by calling people misogynists and terrorists and lump them in with trolls, even when those people are clearly coming from an equalist perspective.

So you recommend that all races and genders get representative treatment in media. One in three games lead by white males, one in three by white females, one in six by a female of color, one in six by a man of color.


Well, can't say I agree but at least you want equality.

Dude. No. Equalist like, when you think that a person's race/gender/orientation/etc is irrelevant, and the gameplay/writing/game design of the person is what matters. So, like, the most free market that you can be.

So the kind of equality that has nothing really to do with equality. Gotcha.

The free market is not without its flaws. It can be stupidly short-sighted (see banks engaging in short-term profit taking by buying and selling defaulted debt... which crashed when no one actually paid off their bad debt). Its frequently blind to opportunties. It can be manipulated by monopolies. Its only as good and decent as the people within it. Its most ardent supporters call it the worst system ever created by man... except all the others.

The free market does not, nor has it ever, cared about equality in any form. It is not good nor evil. Just nor unjust. Its about the facilitation of commerce.

Uh. . . . okay. You must have just started taking intro to economics. Good job!

I was talking about how the SJW side is the side that is afraid of criticism. I'm not really interested in how the markets are affected by whatever it is you are talking about.

Twenty odd years ago and quite a bit of this comes from Rush Limbaugh, Ayn Rand, Richard Nixon. Back when the Conservatives were a much more on an intellectual tip, the idea that the free market was a perfect system was pretty much a laughable one. I think it was George Will who used to say if you can find one positive thing Adam Smith says about the Free Market system then you're not reading him right. And let's not forget Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican icon, who gave Big Business a big kick up the ass when it needed a good kicking. I don't believe in heavy regulation, but a heaping dose of vigilance isn't uncalled for. Plenty of people will happily sell you up the river if they thought there was a dollar in it for them. Plenty of people will happily sell out future generations because they "got mine". Stupid people can wreck an economy. It's the worst economic system ever... except for all the others.

But you tried to play the "they don't care about equality, we care about equality" card and you're support a clearly unequal system. This is not a compelling argument. Don't play the liberal game. Don't try to run to the left of them. You just look like a particularly awful liar. The best you can come up with is the Republican dodge, "equality of opportunity", which at least makes you look like a sexier and better educated liar

 

[Netrigan]

Who is it that is afraid of criticism? You're talking about people whom, when they are challenged, respond by calling people misogynists and terrorists and lump them in with trolls, even when those people are clearly coming from an equalist perspective.

So you recommend that all races and genders get representative treatment in media. One in three games lead by white males, one in three by white females, one in six by a female of color, one in six by a man of color.


Well, can't say I agree but at least you want equality.

Dude. No. Equalist like, when you think that a person's race/gender/orientation/etc is irrelevant, and the gameplay/writing/game design of the person is what matters. So, like, the most free market that you can be.

So the kind of equality that has nothing really to do with equality. Gotcha.

The free market is not without its flaws. It can be stupidly short-sighted (see banks engaging in short-term profit taking by buying and selling defaulted debt... which crashed when no one actually paid off their bad debt). Its frequently blind to opportunties. It can be manipulated by monopolies. Its only as good and decent as the people within it. Its most ardent supporters call it the worst system ever created by man... except all the others.

The free market does not, nor has it ever, cared about equality in any form. It is not good nor evil. Just nor unjust. Its about the facilitation of commerce.

The "free market" isn't that simple, dude. The market is capitalist and most of Europe and the America's are capitalist, but very few of them are straight up free markets. Also, no dictionary definition of a monopoly has existed without government help(or criminal activity) in some fashion. Microsoft was, according to a judge, having monopolistic powers, but it wasn't literally a monopoly, at least in the most rational sense. Economic markets are far from simple and putting the problem on the "free" market is a blind spot, I think.

Oh, it's insanely complicated. The financial side of things is half smoke and mirrors and I went cross-eyed when they tried to explain that shit to me in college.

But on a simple level, white male gamers were so highly valued for so long because they were, by far, the largest market for video games. This is changing. Not only are female gamers coming on (a demographic potentially as big), but the white percentage of the population is steadily falling (69% to 63% between Censuses), which means every year the traditional base is valued less and less, especially when we factor in the foreign markets.

And perhaps this isn't the best thread for this observation, but so much of the anger likely stems from people realizing this. Not sexism or racist (at least not directly), but because they're taken for granted, that everyone is scrambling to grab the growing markets, while their influence continues to fall. They are still highly valued, but no longer sought after. No one says, "this is for white gamer boyz", they're more likely to say "enough of these white gamer boyz"... and they express that frustration with the worst possible wording.

And I think there's a reality check in here. We white male gamers are still the most highly desired demographic on the planet. That influence may be waning, but it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. But with whites set to become a minority in the not too distant future, we're going to have to get used to sharing the lime-light with others. We can still justify our bigger cut of the pie through Free Market economies, but that cut is going to get smaller and smaller as other demographics get larger and larger... because Free Market economies.

 

[QuietlyListening]

The Free Market doesn't have a sense of morality. Only utility. Unless you're a hardcore utilitarian, where that is morality...


Also, I object to the idea that certain criticisms are invalid because they're based on an ideology or political viewpoint. It may very well be true that they are, but so are the things they are criticizing. It just so happens that the latter viewpoint is internalized to the degree that it is considered "normal."

A game which portrays men as grizzled handsome straight white males and women as sexually attractive potential partners most certainly represents a political viewpoint. It's a power fantasy that has been reinforced for generations that instructs the audience as to what the "normal" ideal is for each gender. For men, an idol. For women, an object.

 

[Melaphont]

The Free Market doesn't have a sense of morality. Only utility. Unless you're a hardcore utilitarian, where that is morality...


Also, I object to the idea that certain criticisms are invalid because they're based on an ideology or political viewpoint. It may very well be true that they are, but so are the things they are criticizing. It just so happens that the latter viewpoint is internalized to the degree that it is considered "normal."

A game which portrays men as grizzled handsome straight white males and women as sexually attractive potential partners most certainly represents a political viewpoint. It's a power fantasy that has been reinforced for generations that instructs the audience as to what the "normal" ideal is for each gender. For men, an idol. For women, an object.

Assuming this was true(I'd say there are tons of video games where you dont play as a "power fantasy" in the strictest gender role sense) there is nothing to show inherent damage from playing a fantasy of your persona. Pretending you are superman is not a bad thing(or a good thing, it is entertainment it doesn't need to be "clean"). Also, I dont think it is as simple as women are just objects. I mean just read Elle magazine, most of them fit the same fantasy that video games do, so it isnt as simple as women are not idealized based on perceptions of women by men, based on how other women depict women in pop culture.

Men in most games are as much an object a lot of the time as women are. The difference is range of games where women are the protag, but I'd say that is more a reflection of the content creators more then it is about a specific social moral issue with developers. That said, yes all of it is open to criticism, and with all forms of criticism comes debate and discourse.

 

[Melaphont]

And I think there's a reality check in here. We white male gamers are still the most highly desired demographic on the planet. That influence may be waning, but it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. But with whites set to become a minority in the not too distant future, we're going to have to get used to sharing the lime-light with others. We can still justify our bigger cut of the pie through Free Market economies, but that cut is going to get smaller and smaller as other demographics get larger and larger... because Free Market economies.

I dunno why you added white only in the mix, black and hispanic people have been in the mix for a very long time(and some reports seem to infer they play games more, per capita, then white people). I'd say the console/realistic AAA games wont make a concerted change until there is real money changing purchasing patterns. Until men stop spending the most amount of money on video games, they will be catered to, specially when the large majority of developers are male.

I'd say this idea that there is a huge(or even a relatively noticeable one) shift coming to be relatively baseless. I think most games will appeal to a mass audience, and how that happens will vary from game to game and genre to genre.

 

[Netrigan]

And I think there's a reality check in here. We white male gamers are still the most highly desired demographic on the planet. That influence may be waning, but it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. But with whites set to become a minority in the not too distant future, we're going to have to get used to sharing the lime-light with others. We can still justify our bigger cut of the pie through Free Market economies, but that cut is going to get smaller and smaller as other demographics get larger and larger... because Free Market economies.

I dunno why you added white only in the mix, black and hispanic people have been in the mix for a very long time(and some reports seem to infer they play games more, per capita, then white people). I'd say the console/realistic AAA games wont make a concerted change until there is real money changing purchasing patterns. Until men stop spending the most amount of money on video games, they will be catered to, specially when the large majority of developers are male.

I'd say this idea that there is a huge shift coming to be relatively baseless. I think most games will appeal to a mass audience, and how the happens will vary from game to game and genre to genre.

The white male demographic is the most over-represented (perhaps the only over-represented in America, but I'd need a lot more stats before I'll commit to that); this is why I focused on them.

And I'm sliding way off topic here, so we're getting more in the #GamerGate stuff instead of talking about criticism. The brown-haired straight white male hero is the only one that you can say "stop giving us that" without evoking cries of racism/sexism/homophobia... largely because, well, he is over-represented in terms of population. Not so much in the Free Market, where that's still your gaming bread and butter, but the days where you get an all-white cast in a non-historical is probably at an end. Diversity is simply too big of a money maker to be able to only play to one demographic.

Anyway, point being is the demographic is shrinking. I think everyone senses that it's shrinking. Whether it be emerging demographics which are seizing upon a new marketplace to increase their representation to tradition gamers sensing an erosion of their influence, some of whom resent it. Not so much that they look at the upcoming Borderlands game and say "only one male character out of four... this is bullshit", but they feel like they're being treated as disposable.

Now, obviously, some of these folks are on the Dark Side. They're straight up racists and sexists and homophobic. Hopefully, this is a tiny minority and I'll not throw any of those words at anyone without damn good cause. And a whole lot of people really need to examine the language they're using and NOT throw insults at one another. I cringe every time I hear Feminists tossing around misogyny or patriarchy and I cringe every time I hear the SJW tossed at someone who clearly isn't an extremist. While I'm a Progressive Republican, most of the time I feel like I'm to the right of #GamerGate and all sorts of SJW Capitalized Insults gets thrown at me and it takes a lot of self-control not to call the person a fucking idiot. Buzz words don't mean anything. They just piss people off.

I think there was more of a point here, but I'm kind of trailing off so some sort of a wrap-up fitting with this thread. This is way less of a Us Vs. Them as it is a bunch of people who could very easily be allies on one issue, but opponents on another. I'm a steadfast defender of Free Speech (even that Kane-looking idjit) so I'm going to support the right of any Social Critique to exist and join you against any censor who makes a serious play. I'll happily endorse a need for better Journalistic Ethics, but if you want #GamerGate voices to be heard, then get your best writers and thinkers to become the next generation of Game Journalists, don't expect MovieBob to include your point of view in his opinion pieces. Jim Sterling will continue to go shrieking at any target he thinks deserving of his ire, including many all of us agree with (just not the same ones). We're all criticizing one another and it's okay.

 

[Melaphont]

I dont think the demographic is really shrinking, personally, I think the other demographics have been here for quite a long time I just think you are seeing a over all increase to people playing games(across the board). I think it's all about the game developers still mainly being men, particularly white men, so the content is going to reflect this, on the whole. I think the assassins creeds already proved you dont have to be strictly white, to sell your game, so this infers it has less to do with anything other then the people behind the games fitting the proverbial mold.

Beyond that, there are a plethora of games where you dont have to be the "white guy", so it seems you might be referring to the very specific subset of realistic action games and more specifically in the AAA realm. And if that is your criteria for change, if we use the movie industry as a parallel as what needs to be used to draw money, I dont think the race/sex play a part in what actually sells.

 

[Netrigan]

In pure numbers, they're growing; but percentages matter.

If in a ten year period the white population drops from 69% to 63%, then that's going to have an affect. The Hispanic demographic has been rising in percentages, bypassing the black population as the largest minority group, so you see more focus there. China is an emerging market, so everyone is looking to bust in there and we'll probably be seeing more Asian leads in the near future. And female gamers are on the rise and they're absolutely dominating casual gaming.

And partly I'm trying to explain the anger I see on this board which doesn't fall back on racism or sexism. While I don't think any of us (regardless of race or gender) is free of it, I don't find most people explicitly think that way. We're blind to our bullshit... that's just human nature. We do have a lot of folks who have grown up with the gaming industry and I think they feel like they're being fobbed off... and trying to poke under the hood and figure out what's actually going on is far more constructive than just telling them to get over themselves... and I've not always been good at not saying something horribly similar to that.

If the original Doom was released today, you'd probably be able to pick your Doom Guy/Gal. I think we're going to be seeing a whole lot more of that. We'll be seeing more gay romance options in RPGs. I'd bet money the next time Assassin's Creed does the Co-Op thing, it won't be a Clone Army... although to be fair, they had originally planned for more diverse options, which is part of why people got pissed the promised diversity didn't happen. For more scripted fair, I think we'll see more Borderlands style multi-character options. Way more Create Your Hero options.

There's money in diversity and I think the pressure is on to provide it.

 

[Melaphont]

There's money in diversity and I think the pressure is on to provide it.

Sure, I'd say there is money in diversity, and I think minorities or women jumping into the industry to make games would be great addition to more breadth of games. However, until we see more true productive interests in other groups getting into game design the perceived money in diversity is going to sit there, I think.

 

[Fireaxe]

People don't want to talk about this sort of thing because the internet can't have a civil debate on this kind of issue, and in the end it's all pointless anyway (major companies are going to release games that make money).

It all inevitably ends in mud slinging between the "it's political correctness gone mad and I'm going to use this as my excuse to carry on being a c***" crowd and the "straight white able bodied guys with short brown hair being the majority of protagonists in games is " crowd. Usually with a side of people who think anonymous internet death threats are serious business.

 

[Netrigan]

But you tried to play the "they don't care about equality, we care about equality" card and you're support a clearly unequal system.

No I didn't. I just pointed out that anyone who criticizes SJWs or is on the side of Gamergate gets called misogynist or sexist, even when they aren't.

You're talking about people whom, when they are challenged, respond by calling people misogynists and terrorists and lump them in with trolls, even when those people are clearly coming from an equalist perspective.

Okay, maybe not you exactly. But the "equalist perspective" just struck me as pretty damn disingenuous, so I threw down a pointed dig.

Again, this is more #GamerGate stuff, but the piece of advice I'd give them. Totally sincere "I hope they follow it" advice. BTW, I'm using this post to talk past you, so this isn't necessarily directed at you.

Figure out exactly what you believe in. Not buzz words. Words like equality, journalistic ethics, etc. don't really mean anything unless you sit down and work out *exactly* what those words mean to you. I know the great bulk of #GamerGate aren't bad people. Many of them are smart and funny and probably devastating sexy. These guys need to step up and take a leadership role, blog like you've never blogged before. Don't be the Occupy Movement which never learned to focus its rage into a viable platform.

Don't define your movement by your opponents. Feminism is often a Reactionary philosophy and reacting against a reactionary agenda ends up increasingly useless, especially when there's misunderstanding. It becomes a game of telephone where they react to something, misunderstanding a portion of it, then you react to their reaction and misunderstand it even more, and the result ends up being more and more divorced from reality. My post right here is an example of that. I misunderstood something and went to fucking town... I think I spun it into some reasonably cool ideas, confronted my own worse nature, tried to build some sort of understanding with my would-be political opponents, who I probably agree with more than the Feminists I happily defend here (but oppose on Doctor Who sites where they're horribly wrong and misinformed, because REASONS!!!!).

Here's a blog idea (one I'm half-planning to try myself): "Why The Brown-Haired White Male Hero Matters". Without mentioning Feminists or SJW or any enemy, perceived or real, lay out why he's important. Find cool stories within your culture, explore the emotional realities, explore the concept of power fantasies. Create an entirely positive piece which includes as many of your core beliefs as you can work in. Glorify the fuck out of this maligned character trope. Try to convince people that this guy on the cover isn't a reason to roll your eyes and say "him again." We can make this guy cool again. This guy could be the fucking rock star of the video game world. Don't compare him to anyone else, just revel in this mad bastard who only wants to kick ass and look cool doing it.

And, you know, try to write well-reasoned, well-researched blog entries about more political issues as they present themselves. There's no reason for All-Anita-All-The-Time because most folks are bored fucking rigid by that, so establish your gamer cred, make publications like The Escapists say "Who is this delightfully funny and informative writer who has a unique and important opinion and why isn't he on our pay-roll?"

Make people forget the Feminists, not because you mindlessly hack away at their every argument, but because you present a much cooler and sexier reality.

 

[Netrigan]

I was channeling way too much Grant Morrison with that last post. How many times did I use the word "sexy"?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I was channeling way too much Grant Morrison with that last post. How many times did I use the word "sexy"?

You used the word sexy sixty-three times.

No I didn't. I just pointed out that anyone who criticizes SJWs or is on the side of Gamergate gets called misogynist or sexist, even when they aren't.

Just stop using "SJWs" as terminology. Stop throwing a blanket over a perceived group and labeling them. It's as productive as someone referring to a cross section of gamers as neckbeards (regardless of whether or not their neck sports a stunning beard).

And if the next words of your mouth are a permutation of THEY CALL US NAMES WHY CAN'T WE CALL THEM NAMES, I must remind you that A) they started it isn't an excuse past the age of five, and B) you can't control what other people do, you can only control yourself. Demonstrate that you want civil discourse by engaging in civil discourse. Actually listen and try to understand where the people across the aisle are coming from, and you might find you are listened to and understood in turn.

Because the second you start in with labeling and shit-talking, I can guarantee you that you are simply going to reap what you sow. Even your user name makes it apparent you're spoiling for a fight on this subject.