Why aren't there more games with female/gay/... characters in indie games?

[CBanana]

To a certain extent, many indie games are also retro games, so that slice of indie gaming usually likes taking the plots from 20 years ago which of course is largely straight male dominated in terms of their story.

With LGBT protagonists in indie games, you have to remember that in AAA they don't exist unless it's defined by the player. There are at least a handful of indie games where you play a LGBT protagonist.

Examples
- Lesbian - Mighty Jill Off
- Gay - My Ex-Boyfriend the Space Tyrant
- Trans - Dys4ia

If indie games only have a handful of LGBT protagonists, it's certainly higher than 0 (or 1, maybe 2 if I'm forgetting game(s)).

As for female protagonists, I'd say there's one factor that may tip the scales and that's the Japanese indie (doujin) gaming scene. With doujin games, the vast majority of the games that aren't visual novels involve female protagonists.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Well if it's any consolation.

My first major game idea uses character created protagonists.
My second uses both male and female protagonists.

 

[Fox12]

As there seems to be a significant interest in games with "different" perspectives, i really can't figure out why in capitalist system there aren't more independent games with female/gay/... protagonists (that big games with big money behind them are risk-averse i can understand). In a time where a video (!) about gender and games manages to collect 150k on kickstarter shouldn't there be indie developers flooding this niche where there is demand and no product? As i said, i don't know why it isn't happening and so i would like to hear your thoughts/opinions.

Dude, why in the hell would you put women and gay people on the same page? It's like saying "why aren't there more games about World War I/the Simpsons family?"

Uh, maybe because they're both unrepresented minorities in gaming?

I really have no idea how game developers came to the conclusion that male gamers wouldn't want a female protagonist. Really, I can't even understand the logic here. Maybe their focus groups consist of 10 year old boys, I don't know.
As for the gays, the answer is pretty obvious - the vast majority of players don't want to play as one or even see one on screen. Unless it's a lesbian. I would definitely play that shit.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have an answer. Developers attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Case in point.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

There was a cheerios commerical featuring a mixed race couple, and the internet blew its lid.

When it was revealed that Shepard could be gay, the internet blew its lid



Gamers have about the same standards as a caveman.

I don't live in a cave, I am not a man, I have gay friends... and yet, I really don't fancy much gay in my movies or any gay in my games, thankyouverymuch. I've lived with several gay men and I've seen the pot of shit and spunk at the end of the rainbow, all over the walls. So, while I will defend any and all (well, most) societal equality of adults who want to live free, love differently and fuck outside of the box, I don't have to dig any attempts at glorifying or promoting the gay lifestyle. Come to think of it, yeah, female gaydom, trans cravings and what have you really do not have much in common with the wonderful world of male homosexuality. Anyone who wants to throw you in but one drawer is an idiot and a crook, no matter if it's some reactionary religious republican you despise or the next best leftard that claims to be your best friend forever. They all suck and are bound to let you down, again and again.

Certain, very specific pieces of art I totally dig, like, say, Cho Aniki. Would I want kids to play it? Hell no.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the cavemen of old were a lot more beastly and direct in their fucking, so I'd wager there was more gay action going on than actual talking, be it recreational and plain for pleasure or to establish and maintain some dick-heavy dominance of sorts.

 

[flatten_the_skyline]

dis-empowerment as a mechanic is frightening for almost any developer (except Frictional)

That's a good point actually. Although I suspect the lack of games about certain groups of people often has a lot to do with who is making the games. (Although not impossible, it is quite challenging trying to design something from the perspective of an identity you do not share. - This is all the more true if that identity involves prejudices or points of view that are quite far removed from anything you've ever experienced personally.)

However, you bring up dis-empowerment... Which is actually a serious consideration; Disempowering the player of a game is very difficult to do well, because it takes away from the core of what a game is usually thought to be.
Yet... If approaching certain topics or groups as your subject, then that sense of disempowerment may well be very important to the narrative, if you want to do something other than make a character where their identity is basically a thin, nearly meaningless shell...
But how do you approach that in a useful way?
Tricky... Very, very tricky to get right.

I actually don't see the problem with disempowerment. Doesn't every shooter start with you being in a helpless situation (plane crash, lost squad, Black Mesa turned into a nightmare) where the challenge is to (re)gain whatever control over the situation you get? One memorable game scene is the beginning of HL2, where Gordon Freeman, saviour of the world, is being pushed around by bored, low life combine cops with tasers.

How about you attend a gay pride rally that is brutally ended by police forces (hey, you can even recycle your russian textures) or rednecks, and first you have to flee wearing pink and glitter, find a disguise, and then you have to regroup, always worrying whom you can tell the truth (add some paranoia here), have some investigative gameplay before some kind of endgame?

 

[JayElleBee]

What I don't understand is why so many people think having a gay character = making a game about homosexuality. State of Decay has a gay couple in it. I don't think the words 'gay' or 'homosexual' are ever even mentioned.

 

[VanQ]

Pong only had 2 characters in the entire game - bat one, and bat two - and they were all straight and white.

I'm afraid sexism and racism have been engrained into the very core of gaming since the beginning, and will never leave, ever. We may as well just all kill ourselves.

Okay, I almost took that seriously. Luckily, you put that last line in there. Geez man, don't do that to me. It's at the point where I'd be willing to believe there are people that would genuinely think that you were legit for a moment there. Seriously, everything is sexist to you guys lately.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

There was a cheerios commerical featuring a mixed race couple, and the internet blew its lid.

When it was revealed that Shepard could be gay, the internet blew its lid



Gamers have about the same standards as a caveman.

it wasn't "the internet" or "gamers" that "blew their lid" at those things but these guys:

Aaand there come the flashbacks to the movie Shock Treatment, complete with the father who looks like he should be singing 'Thank god I'm a man'.
Side note: The modern-day idealization of an imaginary version of the 50's father-knows-best nuclear family wholesomeness is really fucking disconcerting.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Because nobody really wants it and nobody wants to do the work for something as pointless and shitty as catering to social justice warriors.

Oh honey, tell that to $560 billion. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_money]

Oh yeah, I forgot they spent all of that on making video games. My post meant that no normal person, straight or gay, needs a video game where the sexuality of the characters is an important aspect. Other than romances, sexuality is unimportant and everyone with half a brain realizes that.

But please, keep saying honey patronizingly as if you have a point.

 

[CrystalShadow]

dis-empowerment as a mechanic is frightening for almost any developer (except Frictional)

That's a good point actually. Although I suspect the lack of games about certain groups of people often has a lot to do with who is making the games. (Although not impossible, it is quite challenging trying to design something from the perspective of an identity you do not share. - This is all the more true if that identity involves prejudices or points of view that are quite far removed from anything you've ever experienced personally.)

However, you bring up dis-empowerment... Which is actually a serious consideration; Disempowering the player of a game is very difficult to do well, because it takes away from the core of what a game is usually thought to be.
Yet... If approaching certain topics or groups as your subject, then that sense of disempowerment may well be very important to the narrative, if you want to do something other than make a character where their identity is basically a thin, nearly meaningless shell...
But how do you approach that in a useful way?
Tricky... Very, very tricky to get right.

I actually don't see the problem with disempowerment. Doesn't every shooter start with you being in a helpless situation (plane crash, lost squad, Black Mesa turned into a nightmare) where the challenge is to (re)gain whatever control over the situation you get? One memorable game scene is the beginning of HL2, where Gordon Freeman, saviour of the world, is being pushed around by bored, low life combine cops with tasers.

How about you attend a gay pride rally that is brutally ended by police forces (hey, you can even recycle your russian textures) or rednecks, and first you have to flee wearing pink and glitter, find a disguise, and then you have to regroup, always worrying whom you can tell the truth (add some paranoia here), have some investigative gameplay before some kind of endgame?

I certainly wasn't implying it can't be done. But it's difficult to get right. You make a good point about for instance, half-life 2, but when you look closely, while you can see that there are moments when the player can't really do much about what's going on in quite a few games, (although, the risk of this degenerating into little more than a cutscene is pretty high), you still have to contend with the overall game structure.

You may be relatively helpless at the beginning of half-life 2, but the game as a whole certainly isn't about having a lack of control, or power. If anything, it ultimately reflects a situation in which an individual for some reason has influence over a situation that is well out of proportion to who they actually are, or what would make sense under the circumstances.
While moments of near helplesness can happen, they are not a core part of what that experience is about.

That kind of hints at what I'm getting at... Because as soon as you shift away from that sense of helplessness, you completely shift the tone of the story. - Depending on what the story is ultimately about, that may not be a problem, but it still has the potential to make things very complicated.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

You think people like this:


can make gay characters? The best written gay characters don't flaunt their sexuality and are just regular characters. While I haven't played New Vegas, apperently Arcade Gannon matches that definition. Just a regular dude who happens to like dudes.

Good lord. That physically hurt me to watch, so much secondhanded embarrasment...

 

[flatten_the_skyline]

That kind of hints at what I'm getting at... Because as soon as you shift away from that sense of helplessness, you completely shift the tone of the story. - Depending on what the story is ultimately about, that may not be a problem, but it still has the potential to make things very complicated.

Well, I think playing with the shift of power is quite intriguing. I mean the shift between redneck county and New York city for example can make a huge difference in the life of your character, starting in some rural village with all the hardships of being a social outcast to make it to new york or San Francisco to have a lot more possibilities... Or to take the Shooter approach of linear empowerment (Crowbar->pistol->shotgun->Assault Rifle->Rocket Launcher->BFG9000) you could center a game about a homosexual adolescent who gains respect by his/her deeds, climbing the social ladder... And if you think in sci fi terms, there is no need for disempowerment at all. There have been times where homosexuality has been accepted, why shouldn't it be in some new civilization? Homophobia is neither natural nor necessary for a civilizations survival, even if 50% were homosexuals the rest could still procreate, so why not have some game where relationships are free, or where gender simply doesn't exist, where maybe even sexes don't exist?

 

[Something Amyss]

More than what? There's already more than AAA gaming. More than that? More than what they have? More than 9000?

The thing is, I doubt there is much demand for it as OP suggests. While I'm fine with GLBT in general, I don't want it shoved down my throat, and playing a game with such a protagonist would do just that (unless there's a way to avoid such relationship, and then why bother making that kind of character to begin with?).

You heard it here first, queers, stop existing. You only serve to shove your existence down people's throats.

Man, could you imagine if the same was applied to heterosexuals in games? The RAAAAAAAEG

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

The thing is, I doubt there is much demand for it as OP suggests. While I'm fine with GLBT in general, I don't want it shoved down my throat, and playing a game with such a protagonist would do just that (unless there's a way to avoid such relationship, and then why bother making that kind of character to begin with?).

You heard it here first, queers, stop existing. You only serve to shove your existence down people's throats.

Man, could you imagine if the same was applied to heterosexuals in games? The RAAAAAAAEG

By that I meant I don't want to be reminded every two seconds that yes, your character (or even a person in real life) is gay or whatever. Establish it once, then move on. And, seriously, how many games even have an option for having a sexual preference?

 

[Something Amyss]

By that I meant I don't want to be reminded every two seconds that yes, your character (or even a person in real life) is gay or whatever. Establish it once, then move on.

And I'm sure you've expressed this about heterosexuality in gaming, too. I mean, otherwise, it would seem downright hypocritical and even (dare I say) bigoted.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

By that I meant I don't want to be reminded every two seconds that yes, your character (or even a person in real life) is gay or whatever. Establish it once, then move on.

And I'm sure you've expressed this about heterosexuality in gaming, too. I mean, otherwise, it would seem downright hypocritical and even (dare I say) bigoted.

Never had the opportunity before, but, yes, I'd say the same.

 

[krazykidd]

Because no one cares . What my video game protagonist decides to do in the comfort of their own home is none of my business . If they are gay , or a lesbians or trans or Asexual or hetero sexual doesn't matter , as long as i don't need to see it . When did this become an issue ? Why do we a) want to see people boning in a game and b) care who they bone ? This is silly and trivial . Games are for playing , not for making sexual fantasies , we have porn and rule 34 for that .

 

[CBanana]

Because no one cares . What my video game protagonist decides to do in the comfort of their own home is none of my business . If they are gay , or a lesbians or trans or Asexual or hetero sexual doesn't matter , as long as i don't need to see it . When did this become an issue ? Why do we a) want to see people boning in a game and b) care who they bone ? This is silly and trivial . Games are for playing , not for making sexual fantasies , we have porn and rule 34 for that .

Yeah, let's ban heterosexuality and any romance from games! Just look at the filth!


Damn you 1983 and your penchant for thinking we needed to change video games by inserting this stuff in! You heard the last poster. Video games are for playing and need to go back to the way they were before 1983.

 

[krazykidd]

Because no one cares . What my video game protagonist decides to do in the comfort of their own home is none of my business . If they are gay , or a lesbians or trans or Asexual or hetero sexual doesn't matter , as long as i don't need to see it . When did this become an issue ? Why do we a) want to see people boning in a game and b) care who they bone ? This is silly and trivial . Games are for playing , not for making sexual fantasies , we have porn and rule 34 for that .

Yeah, let's ban heterosexuality and any romance from games! Just look at the filth!


Damn you 1983 and your penchant for thinking we needed to change video games by inserting this stuff in! You heard the last poster. Video games are for playing and need to go back to the way they were before 1983.

I ..
Uhh...
Okay...

I never said ban romance . I was just wondering why we care about sexual orientation of the main characters . Does it really matter ? Would nathan drake ( uncharted )be cooler if he had a boyfriend? Would lighting( final fantasy 13 ) be more appealing if she had a penis ? Would morrigan ( Dragon age origins ) be a better character if she was a lesbian ?) .

It changes nothing . At all .

Now that i think about it . The 3 main chacters of the xbox360 lauch title enchsnted arms were an idiot , a transexual and a bi-curious genius.

 

[CBanana]

I ..
Uhh...
Okay...

I never said ban romance . I was just wondering why we care about sexual orientation of the main characters . Does it really matter ? Would nathan drake ( uncharted )be cooler if he had a boyfriend? Would lighting( final fantasy 13 ) be more appealing if she had a penis ? Would morrigan ( Dragon age origins ) be a better character if she was a lesbian ?) .

It changes nothing . At all .

Well you were talking about getting rid of heterosexuality in games, I just took it to its logical conclusion because I thought it was funny.

Also,

a) You can portray LGBT characters without showing explicit acts.

b) If main characters' identity doesn't matter, why do video games almost always default it to straight white male. Can't we mix it up more for variety or the sake of being inclusive? Why do people complain when it is suggested to move from this paradigm?