Because nobody really wants it and nobody wants to do the work for something as pointless and shitty as catering to social justice warriors.
Why aren't there more games with female/gay/... characters in indie games?
- Thread starter broca
- Start date
Well here's the thing. Homosexuality isn't something that a lot of games are suited to tackle - it's a thing to be discussed and explored, and doesn't involve killing things or blowing stuff up. Yeah you can do the Persona thing and have everything be symbolic and metaphorical, but that's about it.
It's also just not important to the story a lot of the time, and by that I mean what their sexual preference is period. Unless there's a romantic interest you just can't tell, except maybe if their backstory involves a wife or girlfriend. You don't KNOW for certain that Gordon Freeman isn't gay, Master Chief, or even any of the CoD characters.
It's also just not important to the story a lot of the time, and by that I mean what their sexual preference is period. Unless there's a romantic interest you just can't tell, except maybe if their backstory involves a wife or girlfriend. You don't KNOW for certain that Gordon Freeman isn't gay, Master Chief, or even any of the CoD characters.
Because it's mostly straight white males making them.
Maddox put it quite nicely when he said it's silly for anyone to expect games made by men to have a good perspective on women.
Talking about it isn't going to change it. If people want their minority represented, there is NO reason why they can't start making indie games as OP suggests.
Maddox put it quite nicely when he said it's silly for anyone to expect games made by men to have a good perspective on women.
Talking about it isn't going to change it. If people want their minority represented, there is NO reason why they can't start making indie games as OP suggests.
Because there is a lack of good characters in games, and sexuality, whichever preference you have, is often poorly represented and has a hard time really coming into play as anything other then * I boned Morrigan cause I gave her a book*.
Also, few games tend to touch on personal aspects of characters. There are exceptions, but not many. Some of my favorite homosexual characters in media tend to be ones where my reaction was more or less, also gay, rather then look at that gay character, if you get what I mean.
The Watchmen is a good example of handling it, with how it handles the dynamic of characters in and how of the closet, while also period setting it and just showing how their personalities had to do with said openness, as I view Silhouette's character as been voraciously open with her sexuality, lesbian or not.
Also, few games tend to touch on personal aspects of characters. There are exceptions, but not many. Some of my favorite homosexual characters in media tend to be ones where my reaction was more or less, also gay, rather then look at that gay character, if you get what I mean.
The Watchmen is a good example of handling it, with how it handles the dynamic of characters in and how of the closet, while also period setting it and just showing how their personalities had to do with said openness, as I view Silhouette's character as been voraciously open with her sexuality, lesbian or not.
I think the main issue is that, while talented writers can and do write from the point of view of people different from themselves, most developers consider their games story to be a secondary concern. They don't usually invest in the most talented writers, and so they just create a serviceable story about a grizzled white guy fighting aliens/terrorist/nazis/alienterroristnazis. As a prospective author I can say I enjoy writing people who are different from myself, but I also know that most developers come up with a concept first, then hire writers to build a story around it. This makes it difficult for even talented writers to tell good stories because they're limited in what they can do.
Games like the walking dead do a great job of representing minorities, specifically because the main character is a relatable normal guy who happens to be African-american. The same goes for homosexual characters in Mass Effect 3, who were mostly treated as normal people who happen to be gay. No one played to stereotypes, and the results were great.
Games like the walking dead do a great job of representing minorities, specifically because the main character is a relatable normal guy who happens to be African-american. The same goes for homosexual characters in Mass Effect 3, who were mostly treated as normal people who happen to be gay. No one played to stereotypes, and the results were great.
I disagree on this. It actually goes against the whole argument that "women are just like men" constantly being thrown out by the feminists. A sentiment that I half agree with and half don't. (Thus, don't overall as it isnt total agreement) By this train of thought anyone should be able to write a character that is either male or femalwe regardless of their own gender. With that, I agree. I don't think female aspirations and motivations are that different than men. J.K. Rowling or whatever did a pretty good job on Potter, Weasley, and all the other male characters despite being a woman. From the perspective of "what drives this character?", this is totally accpetable. To suggest the "I have no idea what that is like" may be true, in writing, this is bogus.80sboy said:
In theory, I could make a female that is just like me. I could write a story about me and and even add in a love interest, then at the end change all him's to her's and all names to the opposite sex completely switching the gender of every character in the story. I bet quite a few women would also then relate to my character because men and women aren't so different on internal things. Both men and women vary, for sure. This is why we have "girly" men and "manly" women. However, even that is subjective. My brother has openly told me that some of the women I find attractive, he finds "manly". However, his wife is like the most girly girl if I have ever seen one. I like women that exude independence or self reliance, he finds that trait manly. Others may as well, I don't know - nor care. His wife would make me have to get a divorce before I killed either her or myself due to insanity. A women who is so helpless she can't hook up AV jacks is my kryptonite. A preschooler can match red to red, yellow to yellow, and white to white.
However, I disagree with "women are just like men" biologically part of the argument. Women are not even close to men with vaginas and vice versa. As well, the culture around them is different but is often ignored in these discussions. You did mention it and I can agree to an extent with your point. Although, you can imagine what it would be like and you would probably be pretty damn close. That is the beauty of imagination. I could get paralyzed tomorrow and imagine what it would be like and be pretty damn close (especially with research). I could do the same with having a child. Now, these people that actually DO these things like to say "You can't imagine..." well, yeah you can. It sucks, or its wonderful. I could also go into great deal why it sucks or is wonderful. I bet I could do it so well that people who have been paralyzed would relate to a character. To claim someone can't is to claim they are a bad writer. This world is not only composed of bad writers.
In the end, it is totally possible for a man to write the most relatable female character ever just as it is entirely possible for a woman to write the most relatable male character. This is because men and women are the same on the inside, that is, human. It is that part of us which drives us and it is merely environment and circumstance that we base our decisions around. In that regard, all humans are the same on an individual level.
That's a good point actually. Although I suspect the lack of games about certain groups of people often has a lot to do with who is making the games. (Although not impossible, it is quite challenging trying to design something from the perspective of an identity you do not share. - This is all the more true if that identity involves prejudices or points of view that are quite far removed from anything you've ever experienced personally.)shadow_Fox81 said:
However, you bring up dis-empowerment... Which is actually a serious consideration; Disempowering the player of a game is very difficult to do well, because it takes away from the core of what a game is usually thought to be.
Yet... If approaching certain topics or groups as your subject, then that sense of disempowerment may well be very important to the narrative, if you want to do something other than make a character where their identity is basically a thin, nearly meaningless shell...
But how do you approach that in a useful way?
Tricky... Very, very tricky to get right.
As an example, I have at times contemplated trying to create a game about rape. Now, the controversy of that topic aside, it's difficult to even approach how to handle that.
To be clear, the goal of even trying to create something around that topic would be to try and create some empathy and understanding - To make it clear just what it's like to face a situation like that.
But... Leaving aside the controversial aspects, and even the very real risk that the entire thing would have completely the wrong effect, how do you build a game around something whose essential quality is to do with a lack of control over your own situation, and an inability to do anything meaningful to stop what is happening?
Because, in essence, you're working around how to represent a lack of control which is almost the opposite of what the vast majority of games are trying to do.
Now, that's a particularly extreme (and super-controversial) example, but the same general problem (albeit probably to a somewhat lesser degree) shows up with many topics, themes and character types...
And unsurprisingly, such themes seem quite rare in games. and if presented at all, are usually relegated to supporting non-playable roles...
Some things are just difficult to approach.
I would agree with you here. But I have some first-hand experience of the drastic effects that biology can have... Specifically, how much hormones can mess with your mind (and your body, but that's easier to measure objectively in general.)80sboy said:
Not that even these differences are as dramatic as some people would claim... But I certainly wouldn't suggest they're non-existent.
Researching things that are alien to you is certainly quite hard. - And again, first-hand experience of something can throw up a lot of surprises that no amount of research would make all that clear.
Research, if well done can accomplish a lot, but in the end it's difficult to truthfully reflect something you have never experienced. - Something that is well and truly brought to light if you end up experiencing something first-hand that you've previously researched extensively, and thought you understood quite well.
What research amounts to in the end, is borrowing the experience of others, in as much as you are able to. Good research then, would imply making sure your sources are actually a good reflection of the experience you are trying to understand indirectly...
But... I think I'm rambling on a bit here... So perhaps I should leave things there, before it all gets too silly... XD
To a certain extent, many indie games are also retro games, so that slice of indie gaming usually likes taking the plots from 20 years ago which of course is largely straight male dominated in terms of their story.
With LGBT protagonists in indie games, you have to remember that in AAA they don't exist unless it's defined by the player. There are at least a handful of indie games where you play a LGBT protagonist.
Examples
- Lesbian - Mighty Jill Off
- Gay - My Ex-Boyfriend the Space Tyrant
- Trans - Dys4ia
If indie games only have a handful of LGBT protagonists, it's certainly higher than 0 (or 1, maybe 2 if I'm forgetting game(s)).
As for female protagonists, I'd say there's one factor that may tip the scales and that's the Japanese indie (doujin) gaming scene. With doujin games, the vast majority of the games that aren't visual novels involve female protagonists.
With LGBT protagonists in indie games, you have to remember that in AAA they don't exist unless it's defined by the player. There are at least a handful of indie games where you play a LGBT protagonist.
Examples
- Lesbian - Mighty Jill Off
- Gay - My Ex-Boyfriend the Space Tyrant
- Trans - Dys4ia
If indie games only have a handful of LGBT protagonists, it's certainly higher than 0 (or 1, maybe 2 if I'm forgetting game(s)).
As for female protagonists, I'd say there's one factor that may tip the scales and that's the Japanese indie (doujin) gaming scene. With doujin games, the vast majority of the games that aren't visual novels involve female protagonists.
Well if it's any consolation.
My first major game idea uses character created protagonists.
My second uses both male and female protagonists.
My first major game idea uses character created protagonists.
My second uses both male and female protagonists.
I don't live in a cave, I am not a man, I have gay friends... and yet, I really don't fancy much gay in my movies or any gay in my games, thankyouverymuch. I've lived with several gay men and I've seen the pot of shit and spunk at the end of the rainbow, all over the walls. So, while I will defend any and all (well, most) societal equality of adults who want to live free, love differently and fuck outside of the box, I don't have to dig any attempts at glorifying or promoting the gay lifestyle. Come to think of it, yeah, female gaydom, trans cravings and what have you really do not have much in common with the wonderful world of male homosexuality. Anyone who wants to throw you in but one drawer is an idiot and a crook, no matter if it's some reactionary religious republican you despise or the next best leftard that claims to be your best friend forever. They all suck and are bound to let you down, again and again.GKDAIR said:
Certain, very specific pieces of art I totally dig, like, say, Cho Aniki. Would I want kids to play it? Hell no.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the cavemen of old were a lot more beastly and direct in their fucking, so I'd wager there was more gay action going on than actual talking, be it recreational and plain for pleasure or to establish and maintain some dick-heavy dominance of sorts.
I actually don't see the problem with disempowerment. Doesn't every shooter start with you being in a helpless situation (plane crash, lost squad, Black Mesa turned into a nightmare) where the challenge is to (re)gain whatever control over the situation you get? One memorable game scene is the beginning of HL2, where Gordon Freeman, saviour of the world, is being pushed around by bored, low life combine cops with tasers.CrystalShadow said:
How about you attend a gay pride rally that is brutally ended by police forces (hey, you can even recycle your russian textures) or rednecks, and first you have to flee wearing pink and glitter, find a disguise, and then you have to regroup, always worrying whom you can tell the truth (add some paranoia here), have some investigative gameplay before some kind of endgame?
What I don't understand is why so many people think having a gay character = making a game about homosexuality. State of Decay has a gay couple in it. I don't think the words 'gay' or 'homosexual' are ever even mentioned.
Okay, I almost took that seriously. Luckily, you put that last line in there. Geez man, don't do that to me. It's at the point where I'd be willing to believe there are people that would genuinely think that you were legit for a moment there. Seriously, everything is sexist to you guys lately.SpunkeyMonkey said:
Aaand there come the flashbacks to the movie Shock Treatment, complete with the father who looks like he should be singing 'Thank god I'm a man'.Sleekit said:it wasn't "the internet" or "gamers" that "blew their lid" at those things but these guys:GKDAIR said:
Side note: The modern-day idealization of an imaginary version of the 50's father-knows-best nuclear family wholesomeness is really fucking disconcerting.