Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter

BrawlMan

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Asking studios to stop chasing old, worn-out trends in the hopes of miraculously usurping the market leader? Might as well ask the ocean to stop making your feet wet.
On a semi-related note: Enough with the rouge-like/rouge-lites already! My enthusiasm for Double Dragon Gaiden deflated, because the main game is going to be a rouge-lite that is mandatory, and not an optional mode like Streets of Rage 4. Uuhhhhh....I'll try to give it a chance, but many a review I will be viewing.
 

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I know rouge-lites/likes are already popular, but appear to be showing up everywhere now. Brawlers now have three of them. First it was Streets of Rage 4's Mr. X's Nightmare, then Shedder's Revenge's Survival Mode, and Double Dragon Gaiden is a rouge-lite entirely in its design. This is definitely the new trend for brawlers now. Even Splatoon 3 is doing a rouge-lite survival mode now as a DLC. I have no complaints since they've been done well, but it is something to make note of.

On a semi-related note: Enough with the rouge-like/rouge-lites already! My enthusiasm for Double Dragon Gaiden deflated, because the main game is going to be a rouge-lite that is mandatory, and not an optional mode like Streets of Rage 4. Uuhhhhh....I'll try to give it a chance, but many a review I will be viewing.
Glad I was so wrong. I went ahead and tried the game for myself, and didn't waste time looking at any reviews until after two completions. I got 41 hours on this game, and it's more addicting than I thought it would be.
 

Dreiko

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Usually when a game is being panned for being derivative it's actually just being criticized for being a worse version of something that already exists. If it were to be superior nobody would mind.


Especially with the souls formula it doesn't make sense as a criticism cause From is now using aspects of the formula on things like Armored Core and so on too lol. Also a game that looks totally like its trying to be souls but may actually be fun and worth playing is this Lords of the Fallen thing, not sure how it will play but the aesthetic it has going is pretty great.
 

CriticalGaming

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Usually when a game is being panned for being derivative it's actually just being criticized for being a worse version of something that already exists. If it were to be superior nobody would mind.
Basically hit the nail on the head. Derivative is a negative in every sense I can think to use the word and it always applies as just a shitty version of some other game's mechanic. But it's use is typically not really warranted people just use it to add fuel to why they don't like a particular game.
 

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Really late to the party there Yahtzee. You're 10 years overdue on this subject.


 

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Another gaming trend I'm sick and tired of is adding new game plus after the fact, or way later after the game launched. Like 2 to 6 months later. It usually happens in Western AAA games. Either have New Game Plus at the start after beating the game or don't. Or better yet, don't rush the game out!
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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Another gaming trend I'm sick and tired of is adding new game plus after the fact, or way later after the game launched. Like 2 to 6 months later. It usually happens in Western AAA games. Either have New Game Plus at the start after beating the game or don't. Or better yet, don't rush the game out!
I disagree with this.

I wager the vast majority of players do not buy a game on release day and beat in like a week. And it is just standard practice now to release a game then release patches and updates and, yes, new features. I see no reason why NG+ can't be one of those features. By the time it comes out, day 1 players are ready for more if they want it, and the vast majority of players buying the game- i.e., not on release- will get NG+.

Granted my bias is that I almost never care about or play NG+. I only have done for Witcher 3 because of my obsession with that game (and they only added NG+ after internet fandom demand) and anyway I think it's not worth playing the game that way, and for platinum trophies in FromSoftware games because of my prideful goals with those games. So I understand someone more into this sort of thing disagreeing with me.
But I still don't think NG+ is some super important feature or anything wrong with it being one of many updates to a game post-release.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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I was gonna put this in the hot takes thread but maybe this fits better here: I think it's ok for a narrative video game to prioritize meta-video game practices over narrative themes. I think the fact that these games looks so real and have great acting and even motion capture is blurring the line between games and movie criticism.

Example Polygon or one of those sites complained that the MJ stealth/kill section in Spidey 2 is bad because journalists don't sneak around tazering people. And of course the answer is "well, you know... video game!" And increasingly it seems like this is not good enough for people.
Ultimately criticism of this end is that a video game mechanics "feels video-game-y." lol.. wut is happening even..

The most derivative video game design is...video game design. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes there was a time in my life where I wanted video games to exclusively prioritize narrative and then I tried to play Heavy Rain and Detroit Become Human and Quantum Break and you know what? I like video games, y'all, I dunno about you. Yes, it is not realistic that I have to do side missions to level up but if I like the game then it's fine, it's good. It's not realistic that I get shot and stabbed and then drink a "health potion" and kill the boss and go into a cut scene walking around normal, but lets me progress through the game and see and play new stuff.

It's kind of like when people think they're clever for observing that no one on TV goes to the bathroom. What, you wanna see folks pooping and peeing, really, that will make them happy? No, it won't.
 

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I wager the vast majority of players do not buy a game on release day and beat in like a week. And it is just standard practice now to release a game then release patches and updates and, yes, new features. I see no reason why NG+ can't be one of those features. By the time it comes out, day 1 players are ready for more if they want it, and the vast majority of players buying the game- i.e., not on release- will get NG+.
That's where you're wrong. It doesn't matter if a player does new game plus or not. I am not expecting everyone to beat a game within a week or two, but the option should be there regardless. We're in the 2020s, there is no excuse not to have a NG+ at launch or as soon the game is beaten. If all these old games from generations 5-7 can do NG+, then it shouldn't be a problem with modern games. It's especially crazy when indie games and plenty of AA games get it right. Evil West got NG+ at the start. Resident Evil VII, VIII, and RER2-4 got NG+ at the start. DMC5 and Bayonetta 3 got NG+ without any patch updates. Nearly every Dark Souls games and clones have NG+ when beating the game. Armored Core 6 has plenty of NG+'s. Even Oneechanbara Z2 & Origin has NG+ unlock as soon as the game is beaten. It's a standard practice where developers gotten lazy by putting in a fix it later mentality.

Granted my bias is that I almost never care about or play NG+.
Congratulations, but it doesn't apply to everyone else. I know you're no implying that.

So I understand someone more into this sort of thing disagreeing with me.
But I still don't think NG+ is some super important feature or anything wrong with it being one of many updates to a game post-release.
Like I said before, if all these other (Japanese) AAA games, AA games, and Indie games get it right, then it's no excuse for most of these Wester AAA games to do the same and have NG+ at the start. Especially when their previous title had it at the start. Not budging from this, and most people would see the problem with this.

Example Polygon or one of those sites complained that the MJ stealth/kill section in Spidey 2 is bad because journalists don't sneak around tazering people. And of course the answer is "well, you know... video game!" And increasingly it seems like this is not good enough for people.
Ultimately criticism of this end is that a video game mechanics "feels video-game-y." lol.. wut is happening even..
While better than the first game, I still don't care for these sections. Though not for the same silly reasons Polygon hates them. They always have garbage click-baiting takes. Ignore their usual dumb ass selves.

Yes there was a time in my life where I wanted video games to exclusively prioritize narrative and then I tried to play Heavy Rain and Detroit Become Human and Quantum Break and you know what?
And those are all shit, or don't have much gameplay going for them, because they're held back in scope by being more like TV and movies!
 
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CaitSeith

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Yes there was a time in my life where I wanted video games to exclusively prioritize narrative and then I tried to play Heavy Rain and Detroit Become Human and Quantum Break
Next time try playing visual novels like the Zero Escape or Danganronpa series. Heck! Even the Ace Attorney series are more fun and interesting in their narrative. There is a difference between prioritizing narrative and being built on a good narrative as their base.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Example Polygon or one of those sites complained that the MJ stealth/kill section in Spidey 2 is bad because journalists don't sneak around tazering people. And of course the answer is "well, you know... video game!" And increasingly it seems like this is not good enough for people.
Ultimately criticism of this end is that a video game mechanics "feels video-game-y." lol.. wut is happening even..
See this is why Narrative literacy and gaming history is important if your job is to talk about video games. Because Mary Jane specifically expressed a desire to help Spider-Man regardless of the risk she took to herself. Late in the 2018 Spider-Man game Peter makes a semi-ally out of Silver Saber who ends up giving MJ combat training, which is why MJ has a gun and some combat abilities in Spider-Man 2. It's all very explained and woven into the narrative which tells me that whomever wrote that on IGN either wasn't paying attention and rushing through the game to get an article written or was given Spider-Man 2 without having played the other games, thus the continuation parts of the plot would be lost on them.

That being said, no matter the narrative, video game still needs to be a video game. And this is why I think a lot of people have problems with the "Sony movie game" because you have these very plot driven games being made with fairly basic though highly polished game mechanics to call them games. The Last of Us for example doesn't have great gameplay, but all of its gameplay is functional and polished enough to be good for what it is, the stealthing, shooting, looting, would all be nothing to write home about in another game. However because the narrative is so important, that gameplay serves to be enough to give the player excitement while allowing the devs to focus on story rather than complex gameplay systems.

Next time try playing visual novels like the Zero Escape or Danganronpa series. Heck! Even the Ace Attorney series are more fun and interesting in their narrative. There is a difference between prioritizing narrative and being built on a good narrative as their base.
I mean most turn-based RPGS are like this to. Persona's gameplay is not that fucking deep, it's basically Pokemon and the rock paper scissors mechanics are not going keep players on their toes. However these stories are what get players invested. If you can hook players on the characters and the story around them, then your gameplay just has to be good enough to not break the players engagement.
 

hanselthecaretaker2

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I was gonna put this in the hot takes thread but maybe this fits better here: I think it's ok for a narrative video game to prioritize meta-video game practices over narrative themes. I think the fact that these games looks so real and have great acting and even motion capture is blurring the line between games and movie criticism.

Example Polygon or one of those sites complained that the MJ stealth/kill section in Spidey 2 is bad because journalists don't sneak around tazering people. And of course the answer is "well, you know... video game!" And increasingly it seems like this is not good enough for people.
Ultimately criticism of this end is that a video game mechanics "feels video-game-y." lol.. wut is happening even..

The most derivative video game design is...video game design. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes there was a time in my life where I wanted video games to exclusively prioritize narrative and then I tried to play Heavy Rain and Detroit Become Human and Quantum Break and you know what? I like video games, y'all, I dunno about you. Yes, it is not realistic that I have to do side missions to level up but if I like the game then it's fine, it's good. It's not realistic that I get shot and stabbed and then drink a "health potion" and kill the boss and go into a cut scene walking around normal, but lets me progress through the game and see and play new stuff.

It's kind of like when people think they're clever for observing that no one on TV goes to the bathroom. What, you wanna see folks pooping and peeing, really, that will make them happy? No, it won't.
Plus these are like, GAMES, meant to be played for FUN. To get that technical, wtf kind of psychopath would want to deal with digestive duties or field dressing a wound in real-time and hobbling along because they got stabbed in a fantasy-based battle. I know “realism” is a thing often strived for but there are limits of practicality to that.

I’m sure someone will attempt to make an action/shooter/etc. game someday that simulates everything but good luck with that shit actually being any fun.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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That being said, no matter the narrative, video game still needs to be a video game. And this is why I think a lot of people have problems with the "Sony movie game" because you have these very plot driven games being made with fairly basic though highly polished game mechanics to call them games. The Last of Us for example doesn't have great gameplay, but all of its gameplay is functional and polished enough to be good for what it is, the stealthing, shooting, looting, would all be nothing to write home about in another game. However because the narrative is so important, that gameplay serves to be enough to give the player excitement while allowing the devs to focus on story rather than complex gameplay systems.
But I think Last of Us gameplay is great. It's not complex, no- but so many good games are not complex, in fact some of the best games are Tetris.
But then I'm also the guy who thinks Witcher 3's combat is actually pretty good for its time and the very first Assassins Creed holds up strong as a game, mechanics and all, so I understand I'm on the margins with my gameplay opinions.
 

hanselthecaretaker2

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But I think Last of Us gameplay is great. It's not complex, no- but so many good games are not complex, in fact some of the best games are Tetris.
But then I'm also the guy who thinks Witcher 3's combat is actually pretty good for its time and the very first Assassins Creed holds up strong as a game, mechanics and all, so I understand I'm on the margins with my gameplay opinions.
Story: TLoU>>>TLoU2

Gameplay: TLoU2>>>TLoU