Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter

[CriticalGaming]

Not much of a milestone with 14 hours of pain and misery, and too many forced walking sections.

I really don't understand people's complaint with the force walking section. Back in the day it was staring at the Codex screen while Solid Snake listened to a bunch of military jargon for 15 minutes. Or you had to sit there and read long dialog sequences as characters explains elaborate fantasy worlds to you.

The walking section is just another narrative device in which story and dialog is given without completely removing control from the player. Allows the developer to not have to animate an entire cut scene, nor remove complete control from the player. In most of this sections you can still look around, get a grasp of what's happening around the characters, or whatever.

If you don't want story in games don't play story-driven games. I don't really understand the complaint, even the most actiony of action games have cut scenes and downtime that break up the pace, it's not all shooty, punchy, bang bang 100% of the time.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Not much of a milestone with 14 hours of pain and misery, and too many forced walking sections.

When the game just shuts up and lets you play though it’s some of the best scavenger/stealth design in gaming. It’s just a big caveat having to deal with the other shit along the way.

 

[BrawlMan]

I really don't understand people's complaint with the force walking section. Back in the day it was staring at the Codex screen while Solid Snake listened to a bunch of military jargon for 15 minutes. Or you had to sit there and read long dialog sequences as characters explains elaborate fantasy worlds to you.

The problem is most walking sections aren't skippable and it's a huge annoyance when the gameplay factor is that good, or a players just wants to play the game without having the deal with that bullshit on their multiple run throughs. I can tolerate some walking section, but TLOUS II takes it to a new low, because the story and characters are so shitty and dark edge lord to begin with. Making these sections even more tedious and uninteresting. Forced Walking Sections are the Unskippable Cut-Scenes from 7th generation to now. Another example of how annoying this gets: The Calistol Protocol. Before the patch updates and shitty check points, it was annoying. After the patch updates where cut-scenes and most walking segments became skippable, it was not as annoying, but the gameplay and bad checkpoints didn't stop the problems plaguing the game.

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I don't know how else to explain to you. Even then, Codec Conversations became skippable around MGS2, and games with lots of text could usually be skipped. If you can't understand that, it's all on you.

If you don't want story in games don't play story-driven games. I don't really understand the complaint, even the most actiony of action games have cut scenes and downtime that break up the pace, it's not all shooty, punchy, bang bang 100% of the time.

Arguments like that are always full of shit and completely misses the point. Given it's you saying this, I am not surprised. You can have heavy and engaging story and characters, and have things be skippable. DMC 3-DMC5 got this right. Asura's Wrath got around this fine. RE2-RE4R did great with this. Evil Within 2 got it right. It had some forced walking sections, but those were really brief and unobtrusive. Gunstar Super Heroes, Guardian Heroes, Odin's Sphere, and Code of Princess are story heavy games, and yet you can skip a majority of things, if you want.

 

[BrawlMan]

When the game just shuts up and lets you play though it’s some of the best scavenger/stealth design in gaming. It’s just a big caveat having to deal with the other shit along the way.

Not worth this man's time. I'd sooner just play Shadows of the Damned three times over than deal with that. Or just play RE4R again.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Arguments like that are always full of shit and completely misses the point. Given it's you saying this, I am not surprised. You can have heavy and engaging story and characters, and have things be skippable. DMC 3-DMC5 got this right. Asura's Wrath got around this fine. RE2-RE4R did great with this. Evil Within 2 got it right. It had some forced walking sections, but those were really brief and unobtrusive. Gunstar Super Heroes, Guardian Heroes, Odin's Sphere, and Code of Princess are story heavy games, and yet you can skip a majority of things, if you want.

If they are skippable then they aren't forced walking sections are they?

A lot of these sections cover up loading screen which are becoming less and less required out of gaming now. And the forced walking section is not really been much of a thing this generation thusfar, minus holdouts of games that were cross gen. In the 7th generation the walking section allowed the devs to tell the story and have the game load up the next segment all at once so the player wasn't taken to full on loading screens, or taken out of the game entirely just to get the next segment ready.

I love a good chance to shit on TLOU2 but there were really only a few walking sections and the vast majority of story shit can be skipped in that game so it's not really a fair label for that game. The second playthrough I did cut the entire playthrough from 35 hours to less than 8 when I skipped everything. It's not bad at all in the amount of shit you can skip.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Being annoyed at walking sections seems the new map-with-icons, or whatever is the video game design thing that gets picked on as way to shit on popular games. And as with all such things, there is a measure of truth to the criticism but then it gets overblown.

I just think absolute declarations like that don't make sense.

But then I genuinely enjoyed The Last of Us 2- gameplay AND story including walking and talking and everything, I freaking loved that game *shrugs*

 

[BrawlMan]

If they are skippable then they aren't forced walking sections are they?

Exactly my point and which is why they're the better option. In the case of the 2D games, they have multiple cut-scenes that can be skipped. The same applies to most of the DMC franchise. DMC5 has only one walking section throughout the entire game that last for 15 seconds. DmC (2013) has about four of them, and one section last for 5 minutes during the beginning of the 12th mission. Not something you want in an action title. Especially when the story is really bad. Asura's Wrath has two walking sections that last about 30 seconds.

A lot of these sections cover up loading screen which are becoming less and less required out of gaming now. And the forced walking section is not really been much of a thing this generation thusfar, minus holdouts of games that were cross gen. In the 7th generation the walking section allowed the devs to tell the story and have the game load up the next segment all at once so the player wasn't taken to full on loading screens, or taken out of the game entirely just to get the next segment ready.

That's the problem: most of them are shitty loading screens that give a false sense of down time or "developing story". Some of them work, but most don't and are pointless. The fact developers are still doing this, and is not because of load times, shows how infectious and unnecessary they've become. Once again: thank Almighty Christ and Heavenly Buddha for Indies and AA games. Most of them know not to waste the player(s) time on repeat runs or allow things to be skippable.

I love a good chance to shit on TLOU2 but there were really only a few walking sections and the vast majority of story shit can be skipped in that game so it's not really a fair label for that game. The second playthrough I did cut the entire playthrough from 35 hours to less than 8 when I skipped everything. It's not bad at all in the amount of shit you can skip.

Still not worth the 14+ hours of misery either way. I don't care.

 

[BrawlMan]

Being annoyed at walking sections seems the new map-with-icons, or whatever is the video game design thing that gets picked on as way to shit on popular games. And as with all such things, there is a measure of truth to the criticism but then it gets overblown.

Not really; especially when it comes to action titles. Now that developers are still doing this and are not required load times, I rather just have these sections be skippable cut-scenes and move on. Wow, you made nice graphics! Got anything else to stand on?

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Not worth this man's time. I'd sooner just play Shadows of the Damned three times over than deal with that. Or just play RE4R again.

Back in the day it wasn’t as big a deal since almost everything was gameplay-centric. But starting even in 6th gen when story was slowly taking higher priority it created this odd juxtaposition where you really had to care about the story to not find it frustrating, especially on replay. Even MGS4 which relished cutscenes let you skip them to earn the emblems, but for fans there was also cool little extras like hammering X to view flashbacks or R1 to see things from Snake’s perspective.

It’s one or those milage may vary things. I do prefer having skippable cinematics vs walk n talk where you’re just pressing forward and listening with nothing else to do or see. At that point after hearing it once it’s not much different than being forced to watch an ad on a streaming service.

 

[CriticalGaming]

That's the problem: most of them are shitty loading screens that give a false sense of down time or "developing story".

So you'd rather have loading screens? I'm confused.

I'm beginning to think you just don't want story in your games which is fine. The old setup of "Your girl's been stolen, go fuck everyone up" works just as well as it ever did, so fine.

It just feels like an arbitrary complaint because it's not a problem in games you like because games you like don't focus on narrative like that. So you are just taking issue with something that doesn't affect you anyway.

I like walking segments and think they are a good way to break up the game and let the player know this is a story section they should be paying attention to for context. Nevermind the loading screen thing, because the fact is some players would miss important character details and story bits if they didn't slow the player down a little to hear what's what before cutting them loose again.

It’s one or those milage may vary things. I do prefer leaving story as cutscenes stuff that can be skipped vs walk n talk where you’re just pressing forward and listening with nothing else to do or see. At that point after hearing it once it’s not much different than being forced to watch an ad on a streaming service.

It's basically this, and I fully acknowledge there are some people who don't want a story, or don't want a break and just want to blow shit up and that's fine. Play games that allow you to do that, but when a game is going to have a strong narrative foundation you have to trade off some explosion time for some shut the fuck up and listen time. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[BrawlMan]

So you'd rather have loading screens? I'm confused.

My God you completely missed the point on everything I just said. Do you actually pay attention or just keep jumping to conclusions? I didn't say I want loading screens, nor long loading screens. I do not mind a short loading screen; that's fine. I just don't like forced walking sections; especially if they're no longer required in today's generation of gaming and they're just doing them for the sake of doing them or "art". It's only fun or tolerable on a first playthrough, and becomes less fun on repeat playthroughs and hurts replay value. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of life. If you like them that much that's fine, but that doesn't mean they're immune criticism nor are they a "non-issue".

I'm beginning to think you just don't want story in your games which is fine. The old setup of "Your girl's been stolen, go fuck everyone up" works just as well as it ever did, so fine.

It just feels like an arbitrary complaint because it's not a problem in games you like because games you like don't focus on narrative like that. So you are just taking issue with something that doesn't affect you anyway.

And you are putting words into my mouth. Don't ever speak for me nor assume and project what I like or don't like. I like story games, but I don't like games with forced walking sections. Did you not just look at the games I just listed? Most of the games I listed have heavy story, but they allow you to skip cutscenes or walking sections, if you want to either on a first playthrough or on your repeat playthroughs. It's not that hard to figure out.

I like walking segments and think they are a good way to break up the game and let the player know this is a story section they should be paying attention to for context. Nevermind the loading screen thing, because the fact is some players would miss important character details and story bits if they didn't slow the player down a little to hear what's what before cutting them loose again.

More power to you, but it doesn't apply to everybody else. Like I said before sometimes they work, but most of the time they don't. Especially if they're constantly jamming them in there every single chapter, or 80% of the time. I know I'm more so referring about games from the seventh and eight generation, but it's not excusable in today's generation either. Once again you're doing the whole: "I don't see the problem" defense while ignoring all the examples I brought up good and bad. Most of them bad, annoying, or mediocre. Either you get this or you don't, because I'm not doing this constant back and forth. If you don't get it say nothing more. I do not want to hear it. Zip it and move on, because I'm not doing this endless loop. I got two days off; I'm not wasting it on this entire argument we've already done before.

I will always have more respect for games, developers, and publishers that treat and respect the player's time accordingly. For the record, even some casual gamers are getting sick of walking sections now. Not all them, but even they are beginning to see the tricks behind the curtains and mirrors. So it goes to show how annoying this is getting.

 

[BrawlMan]

Gaming Brit called this out back in 2017 with Resident Evil 7, and it still applies now. I admit Capcom has gotten better with this in certain regards, but I do wish certain bonus features that were always unlocked after beating the game didn't become relegated to DLC (sometimes free and/or sometimes paid depending on the developer and publisher). Some AAA studios get this right, but most others do not. Once again, most Indie and AA games gets right by remembering to keep the old-school designs that work in terms of unlocking bonus content for more replay value.

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A more positive example, but I do wish to see more rail shooters again on regular screens and not just a second home at VR. We got the House of the Dead 1 Remake and Panzer Dragoon Remake, but more should and can be done. I am glad we got these remakes and that HotTD 2 and PD: Zwei are getting remakes too, though we should also be getting more original titles as well. Ex-Zodiac came out last year, and Whisker Squadron came out this year, though both are still in Early Access. It is mainly the Indie and smaller game developers dedicated to keeping this genre alive, and that is fine by me. There's Air Twister, a Space-Harrier type game coming out this November. Then there's a remaster of Rainbow Cotton coming out next year. Not my style of rail shooter, but I ain't complaining. Where's my remaster-port of Sin and Punishment Star Successor? Thank God, I kept the game and my Wii!

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[BrawlMan]

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[BrawlMan]

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[BrawlMan]

@hanselthecaretaker2, @Old_Hunter_77, and @CriticalGaming, when watching Max's stream on playing the Stellar Blade demo, he, his crew, and the chat talked about how it's crazy how there are many games or action games with stagger/stun bare or mechanic. Or more specifically, in the style of Souls, Sekiro, or Ni-Oh mainly. Now here's the thing, this mechanic has always been around, but it's now the "new old thing" getting more popular than usual. Before any of these gams came out, many games varied on stagger and stun, but most back then usually had it hidden or be invisible. It was mainly the RPGs that would show it. DMC1 has a hidden stun mechanic based on whether you parried an attack or hit hard enough with Ifrit. That usually reveals itself whenever fighting Nelo Angelo. The later games would vary on this and based on whatever demon or boss you're fighting. Though DmC and DMC5 made it so that nearly any attack can be parried and stun almost every single boss or enemy type.

Metal Gear Rising automatically stuns enemies when Raiden Perfect Parries. No More Heroes has a hidden stun meter in the first two games via Travis's punch and kick/non-swords attack. In the first game, the punch and kick combos did little damage, but built high stun, it was always best to build up Travis's strength to go for easier stuns, so enemies could grabbed for high damage or an insta-kill. No More Heroes III streamlined this by having either upping his power via upgrade points, hitting an enemy fast with a multi attacking combo, or using a heavy charge attack. Oneechanbara had a hidden stun mechanic since the third game (?), but makes it blatant with the remake, Origin. You have a regular attack, stun attack/heavy attack, or can stun zombies quick with perfect parry and finish them off with an context button combination ([SQR] & [X]). Killer Is Dead and Lollipop Chainsaw both almost have a similar style. God Hand has one based off of hard hitting attack, block/guard breaks, and counter attacking a mook or bosses offensive attack before it halfway lands. Even HiFi-Rush has a stun gauge, based off how hard you hit something, parry, or are on beat with the rhythm.

Sifu has a viewable stun gauge too, but Sloclap put it in their previous game, Absolver. The Norse GoWs got the obvious stun gauge as well, but they partially based theirs off of Dark Souls. Evil West hast got one, but works mainly just by beating the shit out of something or using electrical attacks to continue beating the shit of them further.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Id say that modern gaming tech has made the parry system potential far better than before. But the systems require care and consideration when being impemented. Namely you have to design your enemies with clear attacks and mechanics that making parrying clear to the player.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

@BrawlMan Norse GoW stun gauge may have been somewhat based off of Sekiro rather than Souls, as it’s the only one with a visible gauge. IIRC with GoW it was typically filled quicker with fists and possibly by exploiting elemental weaknesses, but it rarely seemed to be a viable strategy for me personally.

 

[BrawlMan]

@BrawlMan Norse GoW stun gauge may have been somewhat based off of Sekiro rather than Souls, as it’s the only one with a visible gauge.

There's a reason why I said Souls style and not Dark Souls specifically. Norse GoW still has Dark Souls as a heavy inspiration, because the default controls for light and heavy attack are R1 and R2 respectively. The Classic controls have the Greek GoW as the alternative for both games.

with GoW it was typically filled quicker with fists and possibly by exploiting elemental weaknesses, but it rarely seemed to be a viable strategy for me personally.

The fist can be useful, even in late game for at least GoW4. There were even items you could equip to make your fist stun enemies faster or just by upgrading your weapons and etc. I do know the fist are much less useful in Ragnarok compared to 4.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

@hanselthecaretaker2, @Old_Hunter_77, and @CriticalGaming, when watching Max's stream on playing the Stellar Blade demo, he, his crew, and the chat talked about how it's crazy how there are many games or action games with stagger/stun bare or mechanic. Or more specifically, in the style of Souls, Sekiro, or Ni-Oh mainly. Now here's the thing, this mechanic has always been around, but it's now the "new old thing" getting more popular than usual. Before any of these gams came out, many games varied on stagger and stun, but most back then usually had it hidden or be invisible. It was mainly the RPGs that would show it. DMC1 has a hidden stun mechanic based on whether you parried an attack or hit hard enough with Ifrit. That usually reveals itself whenever fighting Nelo Angelo. The later games would vary on this and based on whatever demon or boss you're fighting. Though DmC and DMC5 made it so that nearly any attack can be parried and stun almost every single boss or enemy type.

I think we have to remind ourselves that "new old thing" in gaming is sort of basically... "new thing." Because many gamers are young and don't follow everything and haven't played all these old games. So it can feel like oh my god look at all these games with parry and stagger all of the sudden- and it since it feels like it, it is, because not everybody played DMC1 you know?

It's like I was visiting family and my niece explained why Taylor Swift is so cool and included performing a career retrospective and I barely refrained from being old man uncle and lecturing on how it was common practice for established artists but it's new for HER, what does she care about Frank Sinatra or Steely Dan or even Jay-Z, it's not her responsibility to know all this stuff.
Video games is like that but like 1000x faster.

All that said, it is a bit overwhelming not just seeing trends like stagger but seeing them implemented so similarly- particularly with this example a stagger meter. Speaking for myself at least it just makes it the whole focus of the combat. All I want to do is make them stagger. But only Sekiro strikes the perfect balance where you also have to take into account health and the two balance each other (lowering health also makes stagger easier etc). Then in Final Fantasy 7: rewhatever and 16 health and stagger are like two separate things so it's looking up menus to see what makes the stagger meter go up and it's way less immersive and interesting (IMO natch). And even FF games are actually still fun, I can imagine a lesser game just being freaking lame at that point.

I am gonna check out the Stellar Blade demo when I'm done with FF7:re2 though, it is getting positive reviews.

 

[BrawlMan]

since it feels like it, it is, because not everybody played DMC1 you know?

Not everybody, but a lot of people did. Not to mention the sequels did have their own stagger or some mechanics, even though they were more invisible.

It's like I was visiting family and my niece explained why Taylor Swift is so cool and included performing a career retrospective and I barely refrained from being old man uncle and lecturing on how it was common practice for established artists but it's new for HER, what does she care about Frank Sinatra or Steely Dan or even Jay-Z, it's not her responsibility to know all this stuff.
Video games is like that but like 1000x faster.

Better she learns at some point then later. My parents gave me a similar lecture, but they made sure not to look down on my brother and i. They know we were young and still learning. They were just giving us the added benefit of knowing our history when it comes to music. You can do the same. I don't know how old she is, but you might want to tell her at some point by the time she reaches the age of 9 or 10. She'll learn either way, the better it be from you or her parents.