Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter
- Thread starter CriticalGaming
- Start date
It's funny how much back Ninja Gaiden is now. During the NES era, the franchise was Castlevania clone, but did more than enough to separate itself from that franchise. The original arcade game is just a Double Dragon clone. Then the series went quiet until the early 2000s and brought back as DMC style action game. The difference being, NG Is usually more about being precise, tactical, and efficient over being stylish. Though in the hands of an expert player, they can make all of that look stylish. NG wasn't the first 3d action game to do this, but it, along with God of War, popularized the light attack & heavy attack on X/[SQR] and Y/[TRI] buttons respectively.
Ironically in later entries, staring with NGII, these games would take some elements from GoW. Mainly the brutal in cinematic finishers when a boss or mini boss is in a stunning state. The series took it too far with NG3 (Razor's Edge dialed this back a lot when it released) and Yaiba. The latter which is a full on GoW clone with zombies. Ninja Blade (by From Software back in 2009), one of the few NG clones, was this weird three way mix between GoW, NG, and DMC that did not work. We all know how Metal Gear Rising turned out and surpassed all of the Ninja Gaiden games. Now Platinum is working with Team Ninja on Ninja Gaiden 4.
@Old_Hunter_77 and @CriticalGaming, I know we've talked about spiritual successors beforehand. It's just crazy that NG had two different spiritual successors from former NG developers, and both ended up being shit. Devil's Third from Itagaki is trash, and Wanted: Dead is only barely better than that. WD Plays like a worse version of No More Heroes and Ninja Gaiden II. Why do I have to upgrade to delimb enemies (arms and legs are separate upgrades, by the way)? That was part of the fun in NGII. There was no upgrade for that and you automatically got it from the start.
My point being we go on full circle now, and those two successors will be forgotten about. Correcttion: Devil's Third has already forgotten about. Wanted Dead doesn't look that far off either. While Ninja Gaiden thrives again.
Ironically in later entries, staring with NGII, these games would take some elements from GoW. Mainly the brutal in cinematic finishers when a boss or mini boss is in a stunning state. The series took it too far with NG3 (Razor's Edge dialed this back a lot when it released) and Yaiba. The latter which is a full on GoW clone with zombies. Ninja Blade (by From Software back in 2009), one of the few NG clones, was this weird three way mix between GoW, NG, and DMC that did not work. We all know how Metal Gear Rising turned out and surpassed all of the Ninja Gaiden games. Now Platinum is working with Team Ninja on Ninja Gaiden 4.
@Old_Hunter_77 and @CriticalGaming, I know we've talked about spiritual successors beforehand. It's just crazy that NG had two different spiritual successors from former NG developers, and both ended up being shit. Devil's Third from Itagaki is trash, and Wanted: Dead is only barely better than that. WD Plays like a worse version of No More Heroes and Ninja Gaiden II. Why do I have to upgrade to delimb enemies (arms and legs are separate upgrades, by the way)? That was part of the fun in NGII. There was no upgrade for that and you automatically got it from the start.
My point being we go on full circle now, and those two successors will be forgotten about. Correcttion: Devil's Third has already forgotten about. Wanted Dead doesn't look that far off either. While Ninja Gaiden thrives again.
Rogue liet brawlers are starting to become a more common thing now. It has lead to some pretty interesting results.
Not yet, and I'm holding off on that. I hear it's a good game, I just don't like the overpriced DLC costumes for old or classic outfits. I'll wait for a price drop when they do it for the special editions.
@CriticalGaming and @Old_Hunter_77, I decided to give Warriors Abyss at try. So far, it's not bad and pretty fun. Gets difficult in the later stages. The end bosses can kill you fast.
I've noticed a theme going on with action games that followed after Devil May Cry 1 or 3.
Action games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Viewtiful Joe, God Hand, and Transformers Devastation are all about being as stylish and looking good as possible. Though Metal Gear Rising is this weird in-between where you can be stylish and precision like Ninja Gaiden. Though the hardest difficulty, unless you're really good, most player will stick with the basics that work.
Ninja Gaiden is anti-style. You can be stylish if you're really good and played the games in and out. But the enemies are trying to legit kill you and won't give you much breathing space. Especially in games like Ninja Gaiden II and 3: Razor's Edge.
God of War, and most of its many clones from either era, are about rule of cruel and brutal than cool. Usually, and the Norse era tones down the brutality slightly or emphasizes in a different direction. Mad World is about being as brutal as possible, because you're in a Running Man style death match show. So the more over-the-top the single kill is or multiple kills, the bigger your score and the higher your multipliers stack up. No More Heroes has this weird in-between of rule of cool, deconstructing it, and then playing it straight and a joke depending on the game.
DmC (2013) starts off as being brutal is stylish, but as Dante gets more weapons, he gets more creative and flexible with them. It's especially noticeable when he gets his Angel weapons compared to how he uses his Demon weapons.
I've noticed a theme going on with action games that followed after Devil May Cry 1 or 3.
Action games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Viewtiful Joe, God Hand, and Transformers Devastation are all about being as stylish and looking good as possible. Though Metal Gear Rising is this weird in-between where you can be stylish and precision like Ninja Gaiden. Though the hardest difficulty, unless you're really good, most player will stick with the basics that work.
Ninja Gaiden is anti-style. You can be stylish if you're really good and played the games in and out. But the enemies are trying to legit kill you and won't give you much breathing space. Especially in games like Ninja Gaiden II and 3: Razor's Edge.
God of War, and most of its many clones from either era, are about rule of cruel and brutal than cool. Usually, and the Norse era tones down the brutality slightly or emphasizes in a different direction. Mad World is about being as brutal as possible, because you're in a Running Man style death match show. So the more over-the-top the single kill is or multiple kills, the bigger your score and the higher your multipliers stack up. No More Heroes has this weird in-between of rule of cool, deconstructing it, and then playing it straight and a joke depending on the game.
DmC (2013) starts off as being brutal is stylish, but as Dante gets more weapons, he gets more creative and flexible with them. It's especially noticeable when he gets his Angel weapons compared to how he uses his Demon weapons.
That all sounds about right, though for sure I didn't play these as much as you. But it's a good reminder of why people praising or criticizing combat in a game as "good" or "bad" is so freaking pointless.
And why I'm at the point where I kind of don't care, in a sense? Meaning like... telling me about the combat alone isn't enough any more. I think about a game like Nioh which I tried and fell off of but then I read the praise for the combat and it's all true- the stances, the way the different weapons can work, the way you can work the space to fend off multiple enemies- like I get why people love it. But when I play it I'm just annoyed by the ganks and how "light" everything feels and how uninteresting the levels and story are. So the combat to me was "bad" because it's not fulfilling the sense of progress I crave for games.
So like.. I'm kind done with "action" games. I'm in it for the world, the levels, the story.
I got bored with DMC5 (it was available with PS+ or some kind of subscription or something) because, yeah, it was very stylish but I just couldn't care about any of it. And that's on me- it's the 5th game in a series, it offers a high skill ceiling with the combos and whatnot, and it has the over-the-top story that can be fun. But I was just sleep-button-mashing without the personal connection to the characters. But I also didn't ***** about it on the internet because I recognized the game was doing a good job of what it was going for.
If you are interested in unique world or lore building, I do recommend Evil West. It has a pretty unique take on the vampires you are fighting.
I appreciate Grasshopper Studios combat when it comes to games like No More Heroes, Killer is Dead, and Shadows of the Damned. While each game is over the top in certain aspects, they have a semi-grounded feel to their combat I do enjoy. Not everything has to be exactly like Devil May Cry.
Yeah I played Evil West, it was pretty good. Not a big fan of that camera riding the shoulder style of combat for long sessions, especially as it was right on the heels of God War, but it was overall a good time.
The camera ain't even that bad. If you really want an over the shoulder camera that messes with you on a first attempt, try popping in God Hand. Anyone can get used to it, but it was one of the first of its kind. It has a steep learning curve.
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There are a good amount of action games that do benefit a lot by only having one or two melee weapons. Granted, with action games like Killer Is Dead, No More Heroes III, and/or Oneechanbara Z2: Chaos, each game does something unique or different to compensate. Though usually, your character or characters better have a good sized or large move set that is useful and effective. Having good to great level or even straightforward level design helps too of course.
Killer Is Dead's main character, Mondo, he only has a katana and a cybernetic right arm called Muscle Back used for melee. Both his melee weapons can be upgraded to be more powerful in damage and to gain new attacks. In addition, his cyber arm can transform into a gun and he has three other forms of the gun he can unlock. Though really, only the first gun and the laser gun are most viable and practical. The ice is pointless and the drill you will use to breakdown barricades for hidden items/collectibles. Once you upgrade the charge punch, the drill becomes useless in combat. Also, Mondo has counter where if you dodge at the last minute, a gun wielding enemies bullets, you can perform a counter shot that will instantly kill them. It is an upgrade you do have to buy. Good news is that you can go to the upgrade menu anytime.
Travis does have a nice size move set in NMHIII, but it is stripped down compared to Desperate Struggle. His beam katana can now morph based on your button inputs, though he can no long dual wield Rose Nasty. He is move upgrades are overly expensive and there is not many compared to what came before. Something I do disagree with. To make up for it, he has the Death Glove that allows 4 different special attacks (you only start with 1 and get more as you progress through the game) that work on a cool down. You can upgrade chips the make the cool down be shorter. He's get fuck everything screen clear, if he let's on the special bar roulette, and later unlocks a super form that has a similar screen clear, if the player decides to use it.
Oneechanbara Z2 allows you to switch between 4 characters (Kagura, Saaya, Aya, and Saki) on the fly, and lets you do it mid-combo if you're good enough to time the attack strings right. There is a rythym to it, similar to the Cool Combos system and you can ever carry over the hard to do Cool Combos when switching characters. Each character has two melee weapons and one sub-weapon. The only exeception is Saya, who has her own dedicated charged parry button where the sub-weapon would be. So it's like having 8 weapons total when combing all the characters together. Each lady gets their own berserk mode and later super mode too. Each one also same magic blue meter with three different styles of attacks. Aya and Saki have a slowdown time dodge only they can do, while Kagura and Saaya can heal faster because they're dhampir.
Oneechanbara Origin is similar to Z2, execpt you can only switch between two characters again, and move set is smaller compared the last game. In place, universal parrying exists by having a dedicated parry button. It's really useful and powerful.
Killer Is Dead's main character, Mondo, he only has a katana and a cybernetic right arm called Muscle Back used for melee. Both his melee weapons can be upgraded to be more powerful in damage and to gain new attacks. In addition, his cyber arm can transform into a gun and he has three other forms of the gun he can unlock. Though really, only the first gun and the laser gun are most viable and practical. The ice is pointless and the drill you will use to breakdown barricades for hidden items/collectibles. Once you upgrade the charge punch, the drill becomes useless in combat. Also, Mondo has counter where if you dodge at the last minute, a gun wielding enemies bullets, you can perform a counter shot that will instantly kill them. It is an upgrade you do have to buy. Good news is that you can go to the upgrade menu anytime.
Travis does have a nice size move set in NMHIII, but it is stripped down compared to Desperate Struggle. His beam katana can now morph based on your button inputs, though he can no long dual wield Rose Nasty. He is move upgrades are overly expensive and there is not many compared to what came before. Something I do disagree with. To make up for it, he has the Death Glove that allows 4 different special attacks (you only start with 1 and get more as you progress through the game) that work on a cool down. You can upgrade chips the make the cool down be shorter. He's get fuck everything screen clear, if he let's on the special bar roulette, and later unlocks a super form that has a similar screen clear, if the player decides to use it.
Oneechanbara Z2 allows you to switch between 4 characters (Kagura, Saaya, Aya, and Saki) on the fly, and lets you do it mid-combo if you're good enough to time the attack strings right. There is a rythym to it, similar to the Cool Combos system and you can ever carry over the hard to do Cool Combos when switching characters. Each character has two melee weapons and one sub-weapon. The only exeception is Saya, who has her own dedicated charged parry button where the sub-weapon would be. So it's like having 8 weapons total when combing all the characters together. Each lady gets their own berserk mode and later super mode too. Each one also same magic blue meter with three different styles of attacks. Aya and Saki have a slowdown time dodge only they can do, while Kagura and Saaya can heal faster because they're dhampir.
Oneechanbara Origin is similar to Z2, execpt you can only switch between two characters again, and move set is smaller compared the last game. In place, universal parrying exists by having a dedicated parry button. It's really useful and powerful.
There are lot more PS1 and PS2 throwback games coming from the indie scene. I am not complaining as most of these have come out good. This has been going since 2019-2020 in its infancy. We're even getting a Parasite Eve style of game called .45 Parabellum Bloodhound. This game, Slave Zero X (an action game), and Signalis not only go for PS1 style graphics, but also use 90s Cyberpunk anime aesthetics. With SZX mixing in BioPunk.
I've been playing Slave Zero X, and it's the Stylish Action sequel to Strider 2, even though the game itself is a sequel prequel to Slave Zero. The game uses 2D sprites, and 3D backgrounds. All of your moves are unlocked from the start, unlike a majority of action games similar to Devil May Cry. The game expects you to experiment and figure out the moves yourself. After the very brief tutorial. Or just go into training mode and experiment. The other option is to look up the move list on Google and YouTube. The only thing upgrades provide, are your stats, and they upgrades are crazy expensive.
I've been playing Slave Zero X, and it's the Stylish Action sequel to Strider 2, even though the game itself is a sequel prequel to Slave Zero. The game uses 2D sprites, and 3D backgrounds. All of your moves are unlocked from the start, unlike a majority of action games similar to Devil May Cry. The game expects you to experiment and figure out the moves yourself. After the very brief tutorial. Or just go into training mode and experiment. The other option is to look up the move list on Google and YouTube. The only thing upgrades provide, are your stats, and they upgrades are crazy expensive.