Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter

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BrawlMan

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Oh, I'm sure.

It's just I don't recall D'Artagnan dashing into the fray and every time someone fired a musket or pistol at him, swooshing his rapier around and deflecting the shot. Or WWI troopers going over the top and surviving the hail of machine gun fire by whirling their rifles and knocking the bullets out of the way.
Welp, welcome to the world of video games. Where realism is overrated, and usually unneeded. Especially in my over the top, demon killing, FPS.

WWI troopers going over the top and surviving the hail of machine gun fire by whirling their rifles and knocking the bullets out of the way.
I would pay money to that type of game! You're speaking my language!

Zombie Army 4 has magic, occult, WW2 Nazi zombies that can float, fly, and cast magic and summon lightning, so anything goes as always.
 
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NerfedFalcon

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Too bad. It's happening with this game. You can parry bullets in No More Heroes, Killer Is Dead, Oneechanbara Origin, Devil May Cry 4 when fighting Dante (he can do the same to you) and Bayonetta (so long as you have Moon of Khala equipped). Though these are all third person action games.
Have you played Ultrakill? That game lets you parry so many projectiles, you can even parry your own bullets as you fire them to make them come out of the gun faster and deal more damage. It is exactly as awesome as it sounds (and earns you a style bonus).

ETA (Side note: That only works on weapons with bullets that have travel time; hitscan attacks can't be parried, but for the most part only you have those.)
 
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BrawlMan

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Have you played Ultrakill? That game lets you parry so many projectiles, you can even parry your own bullets as you fire them to make them come out of the gun faster and deal more damage. It is exactly as awesome as it sounds (and earns you a style bonus).
No, but I should get on that.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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> Welp, welcome to the world of video games. Where realism is overrated, and usually unneeded. Especially in my over the top, demon killing, FPS.

I love you.

Your video game addled brain results in some hilarious nonsense, but it also results in absolute mothaf'n truth bombs like this that I couldn't have said better if I spent a goddaman Macarthur's grant worth of time and money trying to write. God bless my brother.
 

NerfedFalcon

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Oh, I'm sure.

It's just I don't recall D'Artagnan dashing into the fray and every time someone fired a musket or pistol at him, swooshing his rapier around and deflecting the shot. Or WWI troopers going over the top and surviving the hail of machine gun fire by whirling their rifles and knocking the bullets out of the way.
If your game bills itself on being a hyper-realistic simulation of a specific activity, such as warfare, then yes, being as realistic as possible is important. On the other hand, if your game is essentially high fantasy with guns (e.g. 'Doom: The Dark Ages'), then realism should only be included where it makes the game more fun, and discarded where it makes the game less fun. After all, the game you are talking about doesn't to my knowledge involve 18th-century French musketeers or WWI troopers and trenches.

And if a theoretical game was about 18th-century French musketeers and focusing more on the romantic aspects (e.g. 'The Three Musketeers') than the realistic ones, then being able to deflect musket shots with a swish of a rapier would probably make the game more fun, IMHO.
 
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BrawlMan

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I love you.
Love you back.

results in some hilarious nonsense,
Which ones?


Your video game addled brain results in some hilarious nonsense, but it also results in absolute mothaf'n truth bombs like this that I couldn't have said better if I spent a goddaman Macarthur's grant worth of time and money trying to write. God bless my brother.
In addition, Simmons and I are on the same wavelength right now. Realism sucks indeed.

 

BrawlMan

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When you stop and think about it, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories was the first survival horror walking simulator. It pretty much started the standard for indie horror games with no combat during the early 2010s.

  • Heavy emphasis on storytelling and puzzles. Though this has always been a Silent Hill staple.
  • Walking sections. Audio diaries.
  • Combat not being an option, and running/hiding are the only viable choices.
  • Going over the shoulder instead of fixed camera.
 
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NerfedFalcon

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Final Fantasy 7 Remake managed to create an entirely unique combat system from synthesizing elements of, from what I can tell, at least four different games:
-The original FF7's Materia system, letting you change your characters' spells and abilities to adapt to upcoming battles, as well as Limit Breaks.
-FF13's Stagger system and its execution of ATB, making finding an enemy's weakness and the right time to exploit it critical to success.
-FF15's basic action mechanics, including giving each character their own unique skills so that they don't all feel like paper dolls with interchangeable clothes.
-Kingdom Hearts's battle menu, making it possible to pull out lots of options in battle, combined with 15's Tactical Mode so that diving into the menu doesn't get you hit.

It's more than possible to make something new out of old elements, and make it far more than the mere sum of its parts.
 

CriticalGaming

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Final Fantasy 7 Remake managed to create an entirely unique combat system from synthesizing elements of, from what I can tell, at least four different games:
-The original FF7's Materia system, letting you change your characters' spells and abilities to adapt to upcoming battles, as well as Limit Breaks.
-FF13's Stagger system and its execution of ATB, making finding an enemy's weakness and the right time to exploit it critical to success.
-FF15's basic action mechanics, including giving each character their own unique skills so that they don't all feel like paper dolls with interchangeable clothes.
-Kingdom Hearts's battle menu, making it possible to pull out lots of options in battle, combined with 15's Tactical Mode so that diving into the menu doesn't get you hit.

It's more than possible to make something new out of old elements, and make it far more than the mere sum of its parts.
I've played a LOT of RPGs in my day, and the FF7 Remake project easily has the best hybrid action system of any combat system in any other RPG I've ever played. The sheer amount of things you can combine and do between skills and materia setups is just crazy.

I really wish RPG's would stop trying to reinvent the wheel and instead take the things about RPG combat that work and stick with it. There is a reason why turn based fans love the fairly simple basics of Final Fantasy X, or the Persona games. You don't need the actual combat itself to be crazy, what you need is the SETUP to be crazy.

Persona for example is great because your can juggle abilities between persona's you have equiped. FFX is great because you can use various characters to manipulate the turn order to maximize your turns strategically to break the combat system.

I suppose that's the key to a great combat system. Can the player's break it? If yes, you have a good system. If not, then it's just a convoluted system that people aren't interested enough in breaking, I'm looking at the Trails games in this regard.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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@Old_Hunter_77,

......Parries......

Yeah it's basically my whole thing- parrying is fine, I get why people like it, but no one thing is ever so good that it has to be everywhere, and now it's kind of everywhere and it's a little annoying.

For me personally the reason I keep going on about it is that I think it's SO common that it's not even fun anymore, not just because it's overdone but because I just don't think it's done well.
 
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BrawlMan

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Before I watch the video I think the simplest answer to the question is that we have the technology to have tight enough button control inputs to make parrying feel good.
Yeah it's basically my whole thing- parrying is fine, I get why people like it, but no one thing is ever so good that it has to be everywhere, and now it's kind of everywhere and it's a little annoying.

For me personally the reason I keep going on about it is that I think it's SO common that it's not even fun anymore, not just because it's overdone but because I just don't think it's done well.
Yahtzee has middle ground to what you've both said. He doesn't find parries to be as problematic as the gaming sphere makes them, but does state that not every game needs one, if the developers don't know how to do them right, or just throw them in their for the sake of it, or because Arkham, Rising, Souls, and Sekiro did it.
 

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As always, there's a line. If you make the game too easy, people will get bored and walk away- but if you make it so arcane and inscrutable that only one person in the world can figure it out, well... that one person will be thrilled, but nobody else is going to play. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that going toward the latter means that the game is good.
 
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As always, there's a line. If you make the game too easy, people will get bored and walk away- but if you make it so arcane and inscrutable that only one person in the world can figure it out, well... that one person will be thrilled, but nobody else is going to play. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that going toward the latter means that the game is good.
Needs to strike a balance. Like a bell curve, where the bulk fall square between the two extremes of playing themselves and being impossible.
 
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PsychedelicDiamond

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I think it's a good thing for games to have a high skill ceiling and a learning curve. Emphasis is on curve. There is a very limited audience for games with millions of complicated interacting mechanics that just throw you in at the deep end and expect you to figure it out. I mean, there are people who are into that sort of thing but most will throw up their hands and then just put the game on their backlog, probably never returning to it. My experience with E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy, by the way. And I'm sure it's far from the worst offender there.

I think friction is something that should gradually increase throughout your playtime. There are plenty of ways to get this wrong, that is actually something I might point out in regards to Kojima's newer games, they give you plenty of new tools over the course of the game but they rarely ever put you in situations where the basic equipment you get close to the beginning isn't all you ever need.

I think friction is about gradually increasing the demands to the understanding and mastery of a games mechanics as the time spent with them increases. I guess with competetive multiplayer games that's particularly important when it comes to balancing and retaining a playerbase. Having enough complexity that they aren't practically "solved" a couple weeks after release.
 

CriticalGaming

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Friction is required in any game even if the game itself is easy, there needs to be some element of earning something. It could be a collectible system that has some tricky things to find, or a crafting system that requires a bit of grind to get the best stuff. Whatever it is.

However I think the best forms of friction in games are ones that allow the player to master it and remove that friction. For example a difficult combat system that the player masters and suddenly the game is a joke. Or learning an item system that allows the players to overcome challenges via clever item or magic combinations. For example learning the materia system in ff7 rebirth to the point where you dont need to be good at the combat, you can just cast a specific order of spells to destroy everything g without having to move.
 
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