What I've been trying to say is things like your claim that super-jump and super-punch are always instantaneous glosses over how that is only instantaneous within a discrete suit mode, the time it takes to switch to Max-Strength is slower or on par with holding respective melee or jump keys for 0.2 sec.
I'm gonna put this in bold abecause clearly it hasn't gotten across: double tapping a button makes the power happen instantly. Suit powers do not need to load or anything, the switch happens immediately and instantly affect you. And as I explained before, the switch happens after you already start swinging/jumping. It literally happens as quickly as pressing one button because the action starts when the button is hit once. Pressing the button a second time soon after effectively retcons the action so that your punch already in progress is now considered a super punch, and your jump is now a super jump. How did that not make sense the last time I explained it?
Treblaine said:
The only tangible limitation is slower sprint speed though it does take you much further. Whether this is an actual limitation or a practical tweak for how Crysis 1's speed-sprint was just too fast and over too soon.
If we only compare sprint speeds, then I don't consider Crysis 2's sprint limited in terms of the player's control of it when only compared to Crysis 1's speed sprint, it's simply different.
Treblaine said:
And the suit-shortcuts clearly don't work the same for everyone in consistently the same way.
They clearly don't work for you and only you. Nobody else has this problem. And no, don't bring up "all the friends you talked to" because you know that argument won't work for you any more than it would work for me.
Treblaine said:
-please provide proof that anything over than movement/sprint is faster in Speed mode.
You realize that even if I don't prove anything else that "movement/sprint" is still more than Crysis 2's speed mode, which is only sprint. Just movement/sprint objectively satisfies the requirements for the player's options Crysis 2 being limited compared to the Crysis 1. "Movement/sprint" is two things, "sprint" is one thing. One is less than two. In Crysis 2, you do not have the option to move at increased speeds when standing, crouching and prone (remember prone?), speeds that equal sprinting in other modes. You don't have that option in Crysis 2, do you? You lack a tactical option, you lack a function of the suit that was present in the first game and added an extra layer of depth to the action.
With less of these options available, you have less strain on one's "mental load" and a lower ceiling of skill. Those who have the Mensa-level mental capacity required to tap two buttons quickly are given the chance to excel beyond those who don't (and Koreans) because the options are available, no matter how difficult.
Though if you want more proof you can watch the video I posted on page 2 (seriously, go watch it) and see how maximum speed affects him. Also note how quickly and efficiently he uses the radial menu. That guy must be a savant, right? To take on such a mental load, it's insane!
Treblaine said:
http://crysis.wikia.com/wiki/CryNet_Nanosuit = no mention of speed mode increasing stance-change speed or reload speed. Only movement speed.
You really are just ignoring what I'm saying aren't you? I literally quoted that page a few posts above: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed."
You have no authority on this because you obviously haven't played the real game. You can't seriously type this stuff and think "yeah it's totally valid to make claims based on incorrect material" can you? You are citing a broken system unique to you. It's like a blind man trying to disprove color.
And your constant attempts to argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous. Saying it's hard to do does not change the facts. Do you argue that the number 1 isn't less than 2 because it's easier to count to 1?
EDIT: I just loaded up Crysis 2 because this thread gave me an urge to play it again. Super jump actually takes longer than I was imagining, it's even easy to use the radial menu to super jump faster in Crysis 1. And super punch is even worse, it takes a whole second to charge up.
I'm gonna put this in bold abecause clearly it hasn't gotten across: double tapping a button makes the power happen instantly. Suit powers do not need to load or anything, the switch happens immediately and instantly affect you. And as I explained before, the switch happens after you already start swinging/jumping. It literally happens as quickly as pressing one button because the action starts when the button is hit once. Pressing the button a second time soon after effectively retcons the action so that your punch already in progress is now considered a super punch, and your jump is now a super jump. How did that not make sense the last time I explained it?
Same with Crysis 2 only holding down the button instead of double-tapping. But it's not instantaneous and neither is it in Crysis 1. Instantaneous means precisely that. Except it has the advantage of no other suit mode being interrupted.
In most games there is a deliberate lag time between pressing the jump key and actually jumping, on the logic your character would have to bend their knees to then forcefully straighten then legs to jump. But after pressing the jump key and keeping it held down so by the time the knees are bent and jump key still held down the legs are extended with super-strength, for super jump. So in terms of actual speed-to-jump it's indistinguishably the same time.
Treblaine said:
And the suit-shortcuts clearly don't work the same for everyone in consistently the same way.
They clearly don't work for you and only you. Nobody else has this problem. And no, don't bring up "all the friends you talked to" because you know that argument won't work for you any more than it would work for me.
That's rather spurious logic, If my version doesn't work it's unlikely my very particular install has a very unique bug with no other errors in graphics rendering nor physics. Have you asked ANYONE else who has the Steam version? And what I say stands true, the use of suit controls do not work the same very everyone.
Treblaine said:
-please provide proof that anything over than movement/sprint is faster in Speed mode.
You realize that even if I don't prove anything else that "movement/sprint" is still more than Crysis 2's speed mode, which is only sprint. Just movement/sprint objectively satisfies the requirements for the player's options Crysis 2 being limited compared to the Crysis 1. "Movement/sprint" is two things, "sprint" is one thing. One is less than two. In Crysis 2, you do not have the option to move at increased speeds when standing, crouching and prone (remember prone?), speeds that equal sprinting in other modes. You don't have that option in Crysis 2, do you? You lack a tactical option, you lack a function of the suit that was present in the first game and added an extra layer of depth to the action.
With less of these options available, you have less strain on one's "mental load" and a lower ceiling of skill. Those who have the Mensa-level mental capacity required to tap two buttons quickly are given the chance to excel beyond those who don't (and Koreans) because the options are available, no matter how difficult.
Though if you want more proof you can watch the video I posted on page 2 (seriously, go watch it) and see how maximum speed affects him. Also note how quickly and efficiently he uses the radial menu. That guy must be a savant, right? To take on such a mental load, it's insane!
You're twisting my argument to say that removing anything makes it easier to follow. No! That's not my argument, that's a straw man argument! My argument has consistently been that all the suit ABILITIES are still there but the controls in Crysis 2 are better for how you can more Directly Access the abilities and in Combination without Contradiction.
Stop and THINK for a second, there are reasons other than dumbing down to not include Prone. CoD has prone and doesn't confound the console-kiddies, maybe the developers of Crysis 2 just didn't want their players doing "drop-shotting" as combined with armour mode they'd be way too overpowered. Anyway, Half Life 2, Left 4 Dead, Portal, Halo, FEAR and loads of other FPS games don't have any prone, there might be a reason for that other than wanting to dumb down. It's not any part of mental load whether there is or is not a prone function. It is a mental load having to perform a 12 step combo to perform a simple super jump. And how double-tap-jump while sprinting does NOT work for everyone.
And speed mode while crouched in Crysis 1 is hardly faster at all, it was still really slow. I rarely travelled anywhere in crouch as the game controls were so limited I'd have to hold down the crouch button and to sprint I'd have to contort my pinkie to hold down crouch and sprint at the same time! Thank god for the toggle-crouch function in crysis 2.
As for moving fast while unseen, Crysis 2 has that tactical option covered. You can super-sprint while your Cloak is engaged. That is a tactical option you DO NOT HAVE in Crysis 1.
You can excel just as well on Crysis 2 controls, you just have to stop getting freaking out about every little thing that is different.
Treblaine said:
http://crysis.wikia.com/wiki/CryNet_Nanosuit = no mention of speed mode increasing stance-change speed or reload speed. Only movement speed.
You really are just ignoring what I'm saying aren't you? I literally quoted that page a few posts above: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed."
You have no authority on this because you obviously haven't played the real game. You can't seriously type this stuff and think "yeah it's totally valid to make claims based on incorrect material" can you? You are citing a broken system unique to you. It's like a blind man trying to disprove color.
And your constant attempts to argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous. Saying it's hard to do does not change the facts. Do you argue that the number 1 isn't less than 2 because it's easier to count to 1?
That doesn't say ALL weapons reload faster in speed mode. Just some weapons and it doesn't say by how much. Should many really care about 20% faster reload speed considering I'd have to sacrifice the protection of Cloak or Armour mode?
"argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous."
So it's ridiculous that something can be easier without being limited? There is no case in any design interface where things are needlessly complicated and poorly designed? The fact IS that it is hard!
Same with Crysis 2 only holding down the button instead of double-tapping. But it's not instantaneous and neither is it in Crysis 1. Instantaneous means precisely that. Except it has the advantage of no other suit mode being interrupted.
...How are you not getting this? In Crysis 1, when I hit jump I can immediately super jump into the air without waiting, at the same speed it takes to press one button, in any suit mode. I've twice explained how this works. In Crysis 2 I have to wait, no matter what. Like I said in my edit, I loaded up Crysis 2 and it's even more blatant than I thought, especially with the strength punch.
Treblaine said:
That's rather spurious logic, If my version doesn't work it's unlikely my very particular install has a very unique bug with no other errors in graphics rendering nor physics. Have you asked ANYONE else who has the Steam version? And what I say stands true, the use of suit controls do not work the same very everyone.
Yes it would be unlikely that such a specifically incomplete game would affect only you, which is why such a huge issue would have been brought up by someone somewhere sometime. And yet that never seems to have happened. I can't find anyone in existence with similar issues. For all we know it's a simple ghosting issue.
And one of my roommate has Crysis 1 and Warhead on Steam, and of course the games work normally.
Treblaine said:
You're twisting my argument to say that removing anything makes it easier to follow. No! That's not my argument, that's a straw man argument! My argument has consistently been that all the suit ABILITIES are still there but the controls in Crysis 2 are better for how you can more Directly Access the abilities and in Combination without Contradiction.
I'm not twisting your argument if I only reference mine. In the following paragraph I make no mention of your argument: The player has less control over the suit. In Crysis 2 there is no option to increase movement speed across the board (hell I just found you can't even sprint in any direction but forward in the second game). In Crysis 1, players had these options and the player who used them effectively had an advantage over those who didn't. In Crysis 2 there is no such option, no chance for players who would've wanted the opportunity to perform better. There is nothing that makes up for this, the mechanics have been homogenized in a way that where there was once a tactical option that could be used effectively by skilled players to differ from other players, there is now simply nothing.
Treblaine said:
So it's ridiculous that something can be easier without being limited? There is no case in any design interface where things are needlessly complicated and poorly designed? The fact IS that it is hard!
No, is that seriously how you've been reading my argument the whole time, despite me constantly saying controls could be better. Wow. But no, what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited". The two concepts are not related in a way that just let's you do that. I'd be all for Crysis 1 having easier, one button inputs, but not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes. Those were what made Crysis unique and allowed a wider range of gameplay and skill.
And let's slow down and look at this quote again. "The fact IS that it is hard!" And that does it. You apparently do not know what a fact is. Either that or you possess enough arrogance to believe that something hard for you is hard for everyone. There are plenty of things I find difficult, Crysis 1 isn't one of them. I got over the controls, obviously other people got over the controls, in the time it's taken to write all this even you could've gotten over the controls.
Here's a real fact: you said Crysis 2 has "no limitations, no compromise". Yet you seem to have deviated from that. I've shown you in great detail how you're limited by the static time required to hold a button to use strength (as well as context sensitive actions), how the only function speed mode retains is a forced energy drain while sprinting, and how this lack of ability to more directly control how the suit operates in addition to the stripped functions results in less options available to the players. You've constantly compromised, claiming that other aspects somehow make up for missing or slower features by virtue of being easier to use. Not only that, but everything you seem to believe about Crysis 1 is literally incorrect, yet somehow you don't find anything wrong with continuing to spout the same inaccuracies simply because your game is broken.
...How are you not getting this? In Crysis 1, when I hit jump I can immediately super jump into the air without waiting, at the same speed it takes to press one button, in any suit mode. I've twice explained how this works. In Crysis 2 I have to wait, no matter what. Like I said in my edit, I loaded up Crysis 2 and it's even more blatant than I thought, especially with the strength punch.
I had to double-take on this one. You can only super-jump in Crysis 1 in Max Strength mode, not "when I hit jump" in any mode. I think you made some mistake when you were writing that or else you are very confused. You must Double-tapping jump to perform a super jump in any suit-mode other than max-strength.
By definition, double-tapping a key takes longer than a single tap. You have to wait. Same with super-punch, you have to double tap and wait for the game to register the second tap.
Let me propose this question to you:
If the strength abilities of Crysis 2 (super punch, super jump, etc) were executed not by a hold but a double-tap... would you accept this? Or would you still say that Crysis 2 is limited in this area? Isn't it trivial the difference between a double-tap and click+hold? Isn't Crysis 2 somewhat at an advantage here how you can do this in combination with other modes and abilities?
Look at it from a coding point of view, the game knows far sooner that it has to deliver a special-move when the input is held down. With a double tap it cannot begin any change until the second input is detected and then it has to interrupt the action that the first click initiated. Holding down the first action (normal punch) is never initiated, it releases the normal punch if input is for a short time, or if after a long time (anything more than a tap) it converts into the alternate input.
You used this control interface the VERY WAY that you typed the prose to reject click+hold.
Tap the space bar. Now hold it. Notice how seamlessly it can move from giving a single space to continuous "stream" of spaces. What we do NOT have is double-tap a key to enter a mode where every time you touch the same key you get a stream of that character rather than singular characters. See, there is a lot more depth and subtly to this than you might initially claim it to be, like that double-tapping is "instantaneous" and that click and hold is unreasonably long.
Yes it would be unlikely that such a specifically incomplete game would affect only you, which is why such a huge issue would have been brought up by someone somewhere sometime. And yet that never seems to have happened. I can't find anyone in existence with similar issues. For all we know it's a simple ghosting issue.
And one of my roommate has Crysis 1 and Warhead on Steam, and of course the games work normally.
Ghosting? I've only ever heard of that term for computer monitors, never for control inputs. My keyboard definitely doesn't have any other problem performing multiple simultaneous inputs.
"I can't find anyone in existence"
Earlier you said I couldn't use that argument. Don't consider this so unlikely considering how this is a particularly hard to describe aspect of the controls, and how such a fundamental component as double-tap jump to super-jump is not documented either. I only heard it from you and I accept it.
I'm not twisting your argument if I only reference mine. In the following paragraph I make no mention of your argument: The player has less control over the suit. In Crysis 2 there is no option to increase movement speed across the board (hell I just found you can't even sprint in any direction but forward in the second game). In Crysis 1, players had these options and the player who used them effectively had an advantage over those who didn't. In Crysis 2 there is no such option, no chance for players who would've wanted the opportunity to perform better. There is nothing that makes up for this, the mechanics have been homogenized in a way that where there was once a tactical option that could be used effectively by skilled players to differ from other players, there is now simply nothing.
Actually you did reference mine with your quote of "mental load" which I used in describing the needless complexity of performing the super-jump with radial menu. You're directly trying to make your claims of limited variety of abilities be part of my argument that easier controls = better game.
"There is nothing that makes up for this"
Really? There is nothing to make up for the inability to sprint backwards? How about:
-longer sprint distance
-speed-sprint while in Cloak (with slower use of suit energy)
-Speed-sprint while using max-armour (with slower use of suit energy)
-Easier and more practical super-jump
-Super-jump doesn't disable any other active mode
Really, when would you ever sprint in a direction you are not looking? You'll fly into anything and have to turn 180-degrees to see what is blocking you so you know which way to go around it. It's not like Serious-Sam where you are constantly back-peddling against hoards of minions. The absence of this is a trivial and insignificant change.
No, is that seriously how you've been reading my argument the whole time, despite me constantly saying controls could be better. Wow. But no, what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited". The two concepts are not related in a way that just let's you do that. I'd be all for Crysis 1 having easier, one button inputs, but not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes. Those were what made Crysis unique and allowed a wider range of gameplay and skill.
And let's slow down and look at this quote again. "The fact IS that it is hard!" And that does it. You apparently do not know what a fact is. Either that or you possess enough arrogance to believe that something hard for you is hard for everyone. There are plenty of things I find difficult, Crysis 1 isn't one of them. I got over the controls, obviously other people got over the controls, in the time it's taken to write all this even you could've gotten over the controls.
Here's a real fact: you said Crysis 2 has "no limitations, no compromise". Yet you seem to have deviated from that. I've shown you in great detail how you're limited by the static time required to hold a button to use strength (as well as context sensitive actions), how the only function speed mode retains is a forced energy drain while sprinting, and how this lack of ability to more directly control how the suit operates in addition to the stripped functions results in less options available to the players. You've constantly compromised, claiming that other aspects somehow make up for missing or slower features by virtue of being easier to use. Not only that, but everything you seem to believe about Crysis 1 is literally incorrect, yet somehow you don't find anything wrong with continuing to spout the same inaccuracies simply because your game is broken.
"what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited" "
Actually my arguments are:
It has easier controls, therefore it's better, that in itself
and
Crysis 2 relative to Crysis 1, controls (extending to gameplay) are not limited in any significant way
You have not convinced me that Crysis 2 is significantly limited in any abilities. The absence of discrete modes for each special ability is undeniably the largest change and surely that removes limitations?
"not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes."
OK. I can't account for your inexplicable preference to suit modes that seems to be in contradiction of your objection over limitations. Discrete modes are fundamentally limiting in how hard it if not impossible it is to combine abilities.
Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward. The speed-sprint in Crysis 1 was ridiculously fast. You can see how the developers may have changed that purely for practical reasons. Think how many glitches in Crysis 1 are caused by a 50mph sprint?
Strength mode too only changed a few actions: punching, throwing and jumping. All could be replaced by special variants of each action.
Please: You have yet to explain why it is better for abilities to be divided into discrete and contradictory suit modes rather than directly accessed.
It makes sense to have Cloak and Armour in separate modes both from the game-logic sense that both are a force-fields acting in different ways and how it's a contradiction in tactics, you are either evading or engaging and being near invisible AND bullet resistant is overpowered. And it's established for balance that Cloak is disrupted by gunfire so it's a contradiction trying to use with armour. But Strength and Speed complement each other.
I think we have all said what we have to say on this matter:
-I said no compromise/limitation from Crysis 1 -> 2
-You object saying hold-time for strength abilities takes time so compromised/more limited
-I clarify that changing suit modes also takes time (either radial menu or double-tap) so is equivalent time, no compromise.
After that, it's around in circles quibbling about how quick you can change modes but unless you have anything more to add I've already said all I need to say on this. I hope you understand my explanation.
Everything I've said is totally accurate about my copy of Crysis. I didn't make it the way it is. That's EA/Crytek's fault. I can't speak for other people's experiences. Neither of us can suppose on this specific aspect of the controls as it has not been thoroughly documented to support either side. And I can still discuss the relative merits of double-tapping vs click-and-hold for shortcuts to special attacks.
I hope I've made my case adequately, though it does remind me a lot of this:
I really have yet to see any evidence that ANYTHING is quicker in Crysis 1's speed mode other than running and sprint speed. Which leaves faster movement speed which might as well just be a single-button for super sprint. There is no Speed 'mode' in crysis 2, the single ability of speed mode now is a stand alone ability to use on demand.
I don't see the point obsessing over a speed mode but rather that the speed ability is there, though at a slower speed it takes you further.
Double tapping space while Max-Speed-sprinting to super-jump would be a pretty good way to work but:
-that doesn't actually work for me
-Even if it did, it's quicker to hold down space key than I can double-tap the jump-key
-even if I could double tap as quick as the hold time, it still disables any active mode like Max-Armour or Cloak that takes mental load to remember to switch back.
Super jump makes way more sense as a discrete ability than as a component of a discrete mode.
You can super punch instantly in Crysis 1 but not at any time in any mode, only in Strength Mode, which takes time to switch to and to switch back from. At ANY TIME you can super punch in Crysis 2 with minimum mental load or occupation of fingers/time. Mental load is a major issue in ergonomics, it says nothing of the individual's intellect as attention of other important factors (special awareness, forward thinking) must be Compromised to focus on something else like perform multi stage controls that interrupt aiming and use of multiple fingers in sequence.
This Crysis 1 super jump (assuming pressing forward):
activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu -> hold sprint -> activate Radial menu just at apex for jump -> Mouse gesture to strength mode -> release radial menu -> tap jump QUICK ENOUGH BEFORE MOMENTUM IS LOST -> (in mid air) activate radial menu -> gesture back to armour/cloak mode -> release radial menu -> release sprint
That is a 12 stage combo that needs absolutely perfect timing with EXTREMELY fast speed and not loosing mouse centring too much or being slightly off where you'd accidentally flip your perspective 90 degrees. There is a huge likelihood you will get it slightly wrong and go ploughing right into the minefield you were trying to jump over or fleeing over a cliff.
Or the Crysis 1 way with suit shortcuts to perform super jump while moving forward:
-double tap sprint
-hold sprint
-double tap jump at apex
-double tap S (default) for armour mode
-Release sprint
5 stages, 8 discrete inputs. Why is such a simple move like a fighting game finishing-move combo?
Compared to Crysis 2:
-tap sprint key to initiate sprint
-Hold jump key at apex to mega-jump
That's all you need to do to perform the super jump while retaining the mode you were in before, cloak or armour. Doesn't that seem more fitting for what should be such a simple move?
"I may as well claim that my Crysis 2 version doesn't work either."
Is that the actual case for you?
I am not making a false claim to support my argument, and I don't see how I can be mistaken. My friends (who also have the steam version) corroborate what I found but didn't particularly test it.
Can't you see this is a huge problem for Crysis 1 if apparently all the Steam versions are unreasonably hard to perform moves. I will be documenting this and investigating it further. But note, I still would prefer Crysis 2 controls to the controls of Crysis 1 even if the suit shortcuts worked properly
I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.
You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.
I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actualyl felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.
I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.
You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.
I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actually felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.
Really. What abilities do you have that aren't in Crysis 2? Be specific please.
I suppose in some ways the previous one you were slightly more powerful, but the power in Crysis 1 was just so hard to utilise. It was like a rocket engine on a motorbike, if that analogy makes any sense. I suppose it's most illustrative with the speed-sprint, so fast yet over so quick, you just seem to SHOOT forward accelerating constantly it's too hard to control in a thick forest I keep getting caught on geometry.
"You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more."
Uhh, you don't seem to have finished this sentence. You've made this claim but not given any actual examples :/
Crysis 2 offers loads that Crysis 1 doesn't have:
-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-analogue corner/ledge peeking
-longer cloak + sprint time
-Nanovision thermal view
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics
Crysis 2 controls were just so slick and well balanced it so made up for trivial changes like slower sprint speed.
I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.
You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.
I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actually felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.
Really. What abilities do you have that aren't in Crysis 2? Be specific please.
I suppose in some ways the previous one you were slightly more powerful, but the power in Crysis 1 was just so hard to utilise. It was like a rocket engine on a motorbike, if that analogy makes any sense. I suppose it's most illustrative with the speed-sprint, so fast yet over so quick, you just seem to SHOOT forward accelerating constantly it's too hard to control in a thick forest I keep getting caught on geometry.
"You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more."
Uhh, you don't seem to have finished this sentence. You've made this claim but not given any actual examples :/
Crysis 2 offers loads that Crysis 1 doesn't have:
-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-analogue corner/ledge peeking
-longer cloak + sprint time
-Nanovision thermal view
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics
Crysis 2 controls were just so slick and well balanced it so made up for trivial changes like slower sprint speed.
That rocket engine on a motorbike feel was what i loved though. It really set the game apart from others in the genre. I know this comparison is made a lot, but after playing C1, Crysis 2 feels derivative of other popular shooters in the genre. The suit powers are a nice gimmick, but the only one that really felt like a game changer was stealth. In C1 the powers actaully felt diverse and powerful, to me it felt like you had to really learn and use them them instead of just being able to press Q as an 'oh shit i have to regenerate' button or jump high because the game puts a tall ledge in your path. in C1 enemy AI can get understandably confused by constantly moving extremely fast in speed mode while blinkign around with stealth, but in C2 you can't be as crafty with your movements, you really only have stealth to mess with them.
I have read through this thread, and i generally agree with the other guy, but i don't know any official stats and i do see where you're coming from Treblaine. i do know that C2 FELT very lacking in comparison to me, whether measurably true or not idk. i just felt less powerful, less able to change the situation dynamically. Soem items of your list like hit markers seem very specific in order to make it seem longer, but maybe those were important to you so i'm not judging. These are some things I liked that C1 had that C2 didn't:
-actual health bar
-prone
-choosing between four different suit modes
-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump
-speed mode and all that came with it, i probably spend most of my tiem in this mode as i find it the most useful once you get good, shame it wasn't brought to C2 though it probably would have been awkward in the cramped city idk
-especially the faster sprint which really differenciated itself from the standard fps sprint
-being able to sprint in any direction, really helps strafing or going around corners, especially in speed mode
-higher high jump and longer long jump, i especially love long jumping with a speeding flying strength kick at the end
-leaning
-more physics, such as procedural destruction and forces affecting vegetation and smoke
-night vision
-FISTS
-large open environments and multiple objectives
-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts
-many vehicles on land, air, and sea
-vehicle sections that don't feel on rails
-32 player multiplayer with vehicles, capturable points that allow different strategies
-weapons and vehicles that launch nukes
-destroying car's tires to make them flip or hitting the gas tank to make them explode
-the tactical attatchment to fire sleep darts at enemies
-lighter movement, alcatraz moves much heavier and it feels clunkier and slightly harder to control accurately, this is really noticeable for some reason
i do know what you mean by C2 feeling slick, but to me it kinda feels bland cocmpared to C1. Once i got better i could do so much and feel like such a badass, but in C2 which i still play i don't feel like i could really get any better than i was back when i first started.
I had to double-take on this one. You can only super-jump in Crysis 1 in Max Strength mode, not "when I hit jump" in any mode. I think you made some mistake when you were writing that or else you are very confused. You must Double-tapping jump to perform a super jump in any suit-mode other than max-strength.
By definition, double-tapping a key takes longer than a single tap. You have to wait. Same with super-punch, you have to double tap and wait for the game to register the second tap.
You aren't reading my explanations at all... When you double tap jump or punch in any suit mode, the first tap starts the action (you start punching or jumping) and the second tap changes you into strength mode during the action, turning your punch into a super punch before it connects and turning your jump into a super jump before you reach the apex. It's done at the speed of one button, the second tap doesn't increase the time before the action any more because the action is already in progress.
Treblaine said:
Let me propose this question to you:
If the strength abilities of Crysis 2 (super punch, super jump, etc) were executed not by a hold but a double-tap... would you accept this? Or would you still say that Crysis 2 is limited in this area? Isn't it trivial the difference between a double-tap and click+hold? Isn't Crysis 2 somewhat at an advantage here how you can do this in combination with other modes and abilities?
If the strength abilities were activated by a double tap in Crysis 2 the same way they were in Crysis 1 then of course I wouldn't have an issue. They'd effectively be the same thing. And the difference absolutely isn't trivial. In Crysis 2 (which I'm playing right now), using strength punches, strength jumps, and strength throws in the middle of combat is ridiculously inefficient on the harder difficulties. While I'm charging up to punch, jump or throw something, the enemies are unloading in my face, that extra second of charging up like an idiot can often make all the difference.
Treblaine said:
Look at it from a coding point of view, the game knows far sooner that it has to deliver a special-move when the input is held down. With a double tap it cannot begin any change until the second input is detected and then it has to interrupt the action that the first click initiated. Holding down the first action (normal punch) is never initiated, it releases the normal punch if input is for a short time, or if after a long time (anything more than a tap) it converts into the alternate input.
That doesn't make any more or less sense, even from the pseudo-code way you explained it. What difference does it make to the game if you hold the button down for a certain amount of time or press it again in a certain time frame. Are you worried about the poor game getting frazzled or something?
This also brings up another point that supports my issue. In Crysis 1, actions like jumps, punches, and throws activate on key press, in Crysis 2 they activate on key release. This is noticeable during times when you want to be precise but the action only initiates when you release the key, forcing you to simultaneously be in the moment and a fraction of a second ahead. That can make for an awkward disjointedness between the shooting and the movement because some things work on immediate key press while others only work on key release.
Treblaine said:
Really? There is nothing to make up for the inability to sprint backwards? How about:
-longer sprint distance
-speed-sprint while in Cloak (with slower use of suit energy)
-Speed-sprint while using max-armour (with slower use of suit energy)
-Easier and more practical super-jump
-Super-jump doesn't disable any other active mode
...There's more to my argument than sprinting backwards, but if you think it takes all that just to make up for sprinting backwards then I'd love to hear how Crysis 2 makes up for all the other stuff it lost.
-Sprint distance is unlimited in Crysis because sprinting only drains energy when in speed mode and you can continue sprinting without energy.
-You can sprint while cloaked in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-You can sprint while using max armor in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-Your "easier and more practical super-jump" is subjective. I think Crysis 1 has an easier, more practical, more efficient, and more powerful method.
-So just re-enable the other mode you want, the ability to do so is on you, but nothing is lost.
Treblaine said:
Really, when would you ever sprint in a direction you are not looking? You'll fly into anything and have to turn 180-degrees to see what is blocking you so you know which way to go around it. It's not like Serious-Sam where you are constantly back-peddling against hoards of minions. The absence of this is a trivial and insignificant change.
All the time. You're basically just guessing. It's extremely useful for strafing quickly, backpedaling while keeping your target in sight, long jumping to the side to get out of harm's way quickly. "You'll fly into anything" is a guess on your part, the same could be said for just moving in any direction but forward.
Treblaine said:
Crysis 2 relative to Crysis 1, controls (extending to gameplay) are not limited in any significant way
You have not convinced me that Crysis 2 is significantly limited in any abilities. The absence of discrete modes for each special ability is undeniably the largest change and surely that removes limitations?
Because you refuse to be convinced no matter what I show you. Speed mode in all its glory is gone, in its place is a regular sprint that drains energy no matter what. Strength mode now forces the player to hold a button instead of being able to use it's powers immediately. The player's control over how, when, and for what purpose to use these functions has been limited.
Treblaine said:
Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward.
And there you have it, a prime quote by someone who never got the most out of Crysis. You see it as any old FPS and refuse to think beyond. You're considering the gameplay in such shallow terms, it pains me. If all it was used for is sprinting then yeah, of course it shouldn't have it's own mode. But when playing on the highest difficulties speed mode is often more useful than armor because of everything it does. Speed is its own mode because it allows such a different style of play.
Treblaine said:
Please: You have yet to explain why it is better for abilities to be divided into discrete and contradictory suit modes rather than directly accessed.
If every ability was able to be directly accessed without compromise then I'd be all for that. But that isn't the case. Speed mode has lost everything, strength mode has been gimped.
I'd be totally down to sticking maximum speed and maximum strength in a single mode, because I agree that they both affect movement and interaction with the environment in similar ways. But that's keeping in mind to not lose or cripple anything from either mode.
Treblaine said:
-I said no compromise/limitation from Crysis 1 -> 2
-You object saying hold-time for strength abilities takes time so compromised/more limited
-I clarify that changing suit modes also takes time (either radial menu or double-tap) so is equivalent time, no compromise.
"I can't believe you're still saying this, it's ridiculous and you know it."
Is a non-response. You can't just say it's ridiculous. I obviously don't think what I said was ridiculous otherwise I would not have said it. Please enlighten me, don't just dismiss. To clarify, you can't say I have the exceptionally broken version any more than I can say you have the exceptionally more capable one.
"Except that clarification makes false assumptions. I can super jump/punch/throw faster in Crysis 1, even using the radial menu."
I make reasonable assumptions on most players, not special exceptions for you. Is it not reasonable that it's easier to perform a 2 step process with little timing beyond the need for judging distance versus a 12 step process that requites a sequence of perfectly times key and button presses and mouse gestures.
"You're basically just guessing."
Nope. They are reasonable assumptions based on the gameplay type. So I cannot make assumptions even though you do? In Crysis 1+2 you are a hunter in an environment with a lot more complex geometry than in Serious Sam where you are against 100x or even 1000x as many enemies you have to be peddling back. In Crysis it's very much about darting from point to point, fleeing with full speed against a few relatively slow and high damage enemies.
"Because you refuse to be convinced no matter what I show you."
How about the humility to accept you're arguments are not good enough rather than arrogantly assuming I am simply denying you. I don't think I've explained myself well enough to you and I'm sure once I get through you'll see.
"And there you have it, a prime quote by someone who never got the most out of Crysis. You see it as any old FPS and refuse to think beyond. You're considering the gameplay in such shallow terms, it pains me."
This is just a personal attack founded on a baseless assumption of my tastes and thought processes, which you objected vehemently to me even suggesting about people who object to Crysis 2 in general (not you specifically). Saying such harsh things as accusing me of being shallow without an example of how that is relevant to the argument makes it nothing but an insult.
Let's leave the personal stuff behind us now, I didn't come here to be insulted, I came here for an argument
If every ability was able to be directly accessed without compromise then I'd be all for that. But that isn't the case. Speed mode has lost everything, strength mode has been gimped.
...
I'd be totally down to sticking maximum speed and maximum strength in a single mode, because I agree that they both affect movement and interaction with the environment in similar ways. But that's keeping in mind to not lose or cripple anything from either mode.
But isn't that what HAS been done in Crysis 2? It is the mode that is always on, the default mode where Armour Mode or Cloak can be put on top of it. I've moved this part of your quote to the front so I can move directly on from this to addressing your concerns that the abilities have been gimped, crippled or lost.
I also found that even though you can punch cars and dumpsters in Crysis 1, they are not sent flying like the they are in Crysis 2 where you hold for a special drop-kick type move. In Crysis 1 strength mode the best I can do is hit the car so it rolls on it's side. So in a way, the strength abilities have been buffed. And the jump height is just as high with the ability to grab ledges and pull yourself up.
I don't think we have even established that speed-mode improved anything other than movement speed.
Breadline said:
You aren't reading my explanations at all... When you double tap jump or punch in any suit mode, the first tap starts the action (you start punching or jumping) and the second tap changes you into strength mode during the action, turning your punch into a super punch before it connects and turning your jump into a super jump before you reach the apex. It's done at the speed of one button, the second tap doesn't increase the time before the action any more because the action is already in progress.
I see, so double tapping extremely quickly, I found that in experimentation but I found though I could double-tap melee extremely fast, so the double tap was over before the hit was thrown, the thing was I saw my suit-energy didn't depleted at all. That meant no super punch was delivered from a rapid double-tap. See this is the problem, you are again claiming an aspect of controls I do not see in my version of the game. The game manual only says that double-tapping melee switches to Max-strength modes, not that it also delivers a max-strength punch. This cannot be anything to do with my mouse or controls.
Is it possible you were mistaken? Or that the double-tap of melee only delivers a super-punch if done relatively slowly so one click for one punch then second rapid clicks is super punch.
If the strength abilities were activated by a double tap in Crysis 2 the same way they were in Crysis 1 then of course I wouldn't have an issue. They'd effectively be the same thing. And the difference absolutely isn't trivial. In Crysis 2 (which I'm playing right now), using strength punches, strength jumps, and strength throws in the middle of combat is ridiculously inefficient on the harder difficulties. While I'm charging up to punch, jump or throw something, the enemies are unloading in my face, that extra second of charging up like an idiot can often make all the difference.
Well now we are getting somewhere. You're essentially fine with Crysis 2's controls but have a personal problem with it being a click-and-hold rather than double-click execution.
Is this really so bad considering the hold time is no where near a whole second as you claim, I think you are holding it for way longer than necessary or are exagerating.
I will try to find a way to quantify these factors but at the moment they are really subjective and definitely in the same ball park to the point where I don't see how you can argue on such objective terms how limited Crysis 2 controls are. I think your perceptions are obviously true to yourself but that's just your personal preferences. I'm just laying it out and presenting a reasonable case that you may admit to something beyond your personal and particular tastes.
That doesn't make any more or less sense, even from the pseudo-code way you explained it. What difference does it make to the game if you hold the button down for a certain amount of time or press it again in a certain time frame. Are you worried about the poor game getting frazzled or something?
This also brings up another point that supports my issue. In Crysis 1, actions like jumps, punches, and throws activate on key press, in Crysis 2 they activate on key release. This is noticeable during times when you want to be precise but the action only initiates when you release the key, forcing you to simultaneously be in the moment and a fraction of a second ahead. That can make for an awkward disjointedness between the shooting and the movement because some things work on immediate key press while others only work on key release.
Of course I'm not saying the game would get frazzled, I'm saying in theory it can respond with less ambiguity to the alternate input.
First you say double click is instantaneous (which would involve key press, key RELEASE then another press), now you say having action initiated on key release is detected in noticeably slower and unacceptably so. Loads of games do this without you realising it.
Don't forget how almost every game has inherent lag of 3 frames at least (read up on input-lag at Digital Foundry) and many games have such variable latency on each action we all instinctively plan our actions milliseconds ahead. Jumping in most games has deliberate latency as jumping, of course, does not mean a small explosive charge is detonated under your ass to immediately thrust you upwards, your legs much bend then straighten before jumping. We deal with this any time we need to jump in real life, you have to start to jump before the exact microsecond you must jump.
Also compare this to how you found the 12-step key+gesture combo for the super-jump being elementary, to suddenly objecting vociferously to accounting for lead time in jumping.
I don't see how it is disjointed, it's entirely intuitive that more powerful moves take a small moment to prepare. A large punch means the fist has to be drawn back. A higher jump the legs have to be coiled even more.
...There's more to my argument than sprinting backwards, but if you think it takes all that just to make up for sprinting backwards then I'd love to hear how Crysis 2 makes up for all the other stuff it lost.
-Sprint distance is unlimited in Crysis because sprinting only drains energy when in speed mode and you can continue sprinting without energy.
-You can sprint while cloaked in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-You can sprint while using max armor in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-Your "easier and more practical super-jump" is subjective. I think Crysis 1 has an easier, more practical, more efficient, and more powerful method.
-So just re-enable the other mode you want, the ability to do so is on you, but nothing is lost.
...
Speed mode in all its glory is gone, in its place is a regular sprint that drains energy no matter what. Strength mode now forces the player to hold a button instead of being able to use it's powers immediately. The player's control over how, when, and for what purpose to use these functions has been limited.
But Crysis 2's sprint is way faster than the regular-sprint of Crysis 1 (that is, holding sprint-key in Strength, Cloak or Armour Mode). Be reasonable, The sprint in Crysis 2 is closer to sprinting in max speed mode in Crysis 1, just not quite as fast, still over 30 miles per hour, just not highway cruising speed.
Surely you can see how two different sprints could be seen my the developers as redundant and THAT is why it was removed. Crysis 2 default movement speed is faster, and since you are OK with making claims on relative speed I think it's safe to say the default movement speed in Crysis 2 is like when the sprint key is held down in Crysis 1 or the default-speed in speed-mode (blah, such a mouthful, but you follow right?).
Crysis 2 could easily have had the sprint-speed of crysis 1, the jump height is the same if you actually compare it, I just think the developers found it too fast for pacing, or how they knew sprint distance should be further yet retaining such a high speed as well would be so overpowered and huge parts of the game would be skipped by. More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion.
Treblaine said:
Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward.
If all it was used for is sprinting then yeah, of course it shouldn't have it's own mode. But when playing on the highest difficulties speed mode is often more useful than armor because of everything it does. Speed is its own mode because it allows such a different style of play.
But as far as I can tell all speed does is give a faster sprint. I don't see anything being tangibly quicker, nor rifle reload speed nor changing stance. That mode's default speed is so similar to just holding down the sprint key, and that speed is so similar to the default-speed in Crysis 2. It doesn't seem speed-mode had any effect on reload speed of rifles and such, or at least no noticeable effect.
So I think that covers everything, my argument the changes from Crysis 1 to 2 were not fundamental limitations but just rearrangements with changes in abilities that just might not gel with personal preferences.
Was that screenshot cherry picked? Like someone set the sensitivity to high and spun around faster than the graphics could load or something? Cause that looks awful by PS3 standards never mind Crysis standards.
That rocket engine on a motorbike feel was what i loved though. It really set the game apart from others in the genre. I know this comparison is made a lot, but after playing C1, Crysis 2 feels derivative of other popular shooters in the genre. The suit powers are a nice gimmick, but the only one that really felt like a game changer was stealth. In C1 the powers actaully felt diverse and powerful, to me it felt like you had to really learn and use them them instead of just being able to press Q as an 'oh shit i have to regenerate' button or jump high because the game puts a tall ledge in your path. in C1 enemy AI can get understandably confused by constantly moving extremely fast in speed mode while blinkign around with stealth, but in C2 you can't be as crafty with your movements, you really only have stealth to mess with them.
I have read through this thread, and i generally agree with the other guy, but i don't know any official stats and i do see where you're coming from Treblaine. i do know that C2 FELT very lacking in comparison to me, whether measurably true or not idk. i just felt less powerful, less able to change the situation dynamically. Soem items of your list like hit markers seem very specific in order to make it seem longer, but maybe those were important to you so i'm not judging. These are some things I liked that C1 had that C2 didn't:
i do know what you mean by C2 feeling slick, but to me it kinda feels bland cocmpared to C1. Once i got better i could do so much and feel like such a badass, but in C2 which i still play i don't feel like i could really get any better than i was back when i first started.
You have to admit, Crysis 1 did feel very much like a big crazy tech demo with a whole load of stuff thrown together. I just found this got boring very quickly.
The suit modes emphasised the different abilities but stepping back and looking at it objectively they aren't so unique,
My problem with Super-Sprint in Crysis 1 is to spite the enjoyment of the speed it just chewed through the power so quick and cuts off when down to 20%, that means I sprint into combat with no suit energy (armour-mode depleted energy) to do anything or if in combat and low on energy I cannot escape.
There aspects actually ARE in Crysis 2:
-higher high jump and longer long jump, i especially love long jumping with a speeding flying strength kick at the end = you can do that is crysis 2, and it is in fact easier to perform at any instance.
-leaning = you KNOW you still have this capability with the analogue-lean feature in Crysis 2
-speed mode and all that came with it = if you mean the claim that Speed modes speeds up other things like reload speed, I don't see any evidence for that. Like Crysis 1 and 2 it seems to be just movement speed.
-night vision = Nanovision. Night vision was useless for how rarely you were ever in a situation that it actually helped. Thermal vision is far more useful for locating enemies where they are hard to see in the environment.
-large open environments and multiple objectives = same in Crysis 2, just without large empty jungle surrounding and added element of increased verticality
-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts = you don't have to use markers. Your list is suppoed to be things C1 had that C2 didn't, not things C2 had and C1 didn't but that you think are redundant.
-many vehicles on land, air, and sea = also have many vehicles in Crysis 2. You don't get to pilot a helicopter in the campaign of either Crysis 1 or Crysis 2.
-vehicle sections that don't feel on rails = Vehicles in Crysis 1 were equally on-rails in how they limited lateral movement pushing you forward.
-more physics, such as procedural destruction and forces affecting vegetation and smoke = you can also shoot to destroy trees and some objects in Crysis 2, and like Crysis 1 you have some objects inexplicably indestructible. For example, they only "destructible" buildings in Crysis 1 you couldn't actually deform any polygons, it was an arrangement of boards. It was like a house of cards, you could only collapse it over, not blow hole for an alternate entrance.
-FISTS = When you lack any weapon you have fists, But melee is just as fast and powerful, do we really need to clutter up the inventory cycling with such a redundant "weapon"?
-the tactical attatchment to fire sleep darts at enemies = Also under barrel attachment in Crysis 2 including under-barrel shotguns
-lighter movement, alcatraz moves much heavier and it feels clunkier and slightly harder to control accurately, this is really noticeable for some reason = I don't get this, the default movement speed is faster or as fast as in Crysis 1
But some of them are undoubtedly gone but I'd like to say something about each:
-actual health bar = might have been useful if enemy attacks didn't do so much damage, The point of a health bar is you can push limits but if you don't know if the next enemy bullet will deal 15 damage or 25 damage, it doesn't matter as soon as your health goes below 25% (red screen) you need to act like the next-bullet is death.
A visible health counter is only useful if you can - with reasonable and practical accuracy - know how much damage the next enemy hit will be, otherwise you are as poorly able to push the limits of your health as if you just had a red-ring around the screen when it gets low.
-prone = why? I only ever used this in Crysis 1 along with strength mode in a futile attempt at steadying the sway on my rifle in long range shooting, it didn't help. There is no point in going prone for concealment as there are so few barriers that low, and being in a jet black (sometimes glowing) suit being prone won't make you harder to see like a ghillie suit works, concealment works by the optical camouflage that works in any stance. Loads of similar games don't have prone.
The games that do value prone I value for how much it steadies your aim, how much it aids concealment and how much harder it makes for you to be hit.
-choosing between four different suit modes = how is this good? There are two active modes, the abilities of the other two modes can always be accessed.
-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump = the charge time is very short, and think about how you'd use a super-punch, you'd see the enemy you want to super-punch and advance towards them with melee key/button held down.
-especially the faster sprint which really differentiated itself from the standard fps sprint = Yeah it did, but it wasn't much slower in Crysis 2 yet took you much further. This could have been nerfed for balance or other practical reasons.
-being able to sprint in any direction, really helps strafing or going around corners, especially in speed mode = I guess it's nice but even if you moved HALF that speed you'd want to know exactly which way you were going. You can sprint diagonal, which is 45-degrees off centre which is interestingly right at the edge of where a 90-degree wide field of view would be.
Sprint can't aid circle strafing in Crysis as firing breaks the sprint action.
-32 player multiplayer with vehicles, capturable points that allow different strategies = I can't speak for multiplayer, I didn't play either, this doesn't seem to be the main feature of either.
-weapons and vehicles that launch nukes = That was only in Crysis multiplayer and a single point in the single-player game right?
-destroying car's tires to make them flip or hitting the gas tank to make them explode = I think you can also do the same in crysis 2 but in neither Crysis 1 or 2 have I been able to catch a vehicles as it is driving and shoot out one of its tires. Crysis 1 it's unreasonably hard for how high the weapon-sway is and how hard it is to get a high frame rate to make such a shot easier.
Crysis I find just too flawed in its overreaching design. They lost any kind of objective approach to abilities being simplistically divided between discrete modes. The only real nerf going to Crysis 2 was the speed of the sprint, everything else has been refined or changed for practical reasons.
I admit I was harsh, but it's frustrating when the person you're arguing against declares to have proven you wrong, declares a lot of the stuff you said was nonsense, declares that your objections don't hold up to scrutiny, then you find out they had a faulty basis for those declarations the whole time and they refuse to even admit that using a broken system to prove something is a little silly. You haven't said anything about proving me wrong recently, so maybe you're past that point. Though for the record, I wasn't saying you're shallow, only that you were treating Crysis like it was a shallow FPS, only looking at the surface mechanics.
Treblaine said:
But isn't that what HAS been done in Crysis 2? It is the mode that is always on, the default mode where Armour Mode or Cloak can be put on top of it. I've moved this part of your quote to the front so I can move directly on from this to addressing your concerns that the abilities have been gimped, crippled or lost.
I don't think we have even established that speed-mode improved anything other than movement speed.
But have we at least established that the option to increase movement speed across the board is not something you can do in Crysis 2, right? It's disappointing that you can't check quick and simple things like going into speed and switching weapons or moving around while crouched, or even see these things in any videos such as what basically amounts to a speed/cloak mode advertisement video I posted on page 2.
Treblaine said:
I also found that even though you can punch cars and dumpsters in Crysis 1, they are not sent flying like the they are in Crysis 2 where you hold for a special drop-kick type move. In Crysis 1 strength mode the best I can do is hit the car so it rolls on it's side. So in a way, the strength abilities have been buffed. And the jump height is just as high with the ability to grab ledges and pull yourself up.
...
I see, so double tapping extremely quickly, I found that in experimentation but I found though I could double-tap melee extremely fast, so the double tap was over before the hit was thrown, the thing was I saw my suit-energy didn't depleted at all. That meant no super punch was delivered from a rapid double-tap. See this is the problem, you are again claiming an aspect of controls I do not see in my version of the game. The game manual only says that double-tapping melee switches to Max-strength modes, not that it also delivers a max-strength punch. This cannot be anything to do with my mouse or controls.
Is it possible you were mistaken? Or that the double-tap of melee only delivers a super-punch if done relatively slowly so one click for one punch then second rapid clicks is super punch.
I feel like both of these could be demonstrated with yet another video that displays basic mechanics that were inexplicably stricken from your game. Are you sure you're playing Crysis 1 or Warhead and not Halo? They're both sci-fi shooters so maybe you lumped them together for being redundant and consider them the same game.
(Sorry for the choppiness, I had to use my roommate's computer)
So it is a strength punch and the car actually goes much further than Crysis 2. Though for the record, I don't consider the raw distance the car travels after being kicked/punched as any sort of issue, they both functionally do the same thing. Variables like distance are relative to the game they're a part of.
And further down you say "More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion" which is great advice you seem to ignore multiple times. I've said things like strength jump goes higher, but those are minor quips. My main issue concerns the functionality of the nanosuit and how the player's control over how to use it and for what reasons has been limited or crippled.
Treblaine said:
Is this really so bad considering the hold time is no where near a whole second as you claim, I think you are holding it for way longer than necessary or are exagerating.
You can't hold the button for longer than necessary, you automatically punch once it's charged enough. Letting go anytime before that and you throw a normal punch. If I bind my record button to the same button as melee and check on Adobe Premiere at what point energy was drained to signify the start of the punch, I get .734 seconds. So yeah 1 second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's very noticeable in combat, especially on the harder difficulties.
Using a strength punch is basically useless on the hardest difficulty purely because it takes too long. In Crysis 1 it could be very useful and didn't force you to stand there like an idiot eating bullets while you charged up. And if someone was out of reach you could perform a quick sprint speed long jump flying max strength haymaker to the face without having to wait for the game to process your actions.
It's awkward for me to have to wait for the game to throw my punch when before it just did what I said when I said.
Treblaine said:
Also compare this to how you found the 12-step key+gesture combo for the super-jump being elementary, to suddenly objecting vociferously to accounting for lead time in jumping.
I don't see how it is disjointed, it's entirely intuitive that more powerful moves take a small moment to prepare. A large punch means the fist has to be drawn back. A higher jump the legs have to be coiled even more.
The ridiculous "12 step process" (which I still find to be a desperate attempt at making something incredibly simple sound complicated) is at least all based on the player, and I'll always take requiring more skill over having the game do it for me.
I can't think of a single game that jumps on key release instead of key press. It doesn't happen in any Valve games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Battlefield, platformers like Mario and Sonic. I'm obviously not gonna check all my games, but I definitely can't think of another game that does it that way. In Crysis 2 I hit jump and it feels like my character is simply slow to react. Having played games my whole life, and especially being a fan of shooters, it's a specifically awkward feeling.
And I feel like you're just using the word intuitive as a cop-out buzz word. A longer delay might feel more realistic (though you could simply say the point of the nanosuit is that the extra strength allows you to perform these actions at regular speed but with more power) because you have to pull your arm back, but I'm not talking about the delay between tensing your muscles and letting fly a punch, I'm talking about a delay between your brain sending the signal and your muscles even receiving them.
The jump and melee buttons are the only ones that activate on key release. Moving, shooting, crouching, using powers, etc, all happen immediately like in every other game, except jump and punch wait slightly before even starting. It's very noticeable to me, and I think is a big reason why Hobonicus mentioned Alcatraz feeling clunky. You can try to call it realistic, but I think that's grasping and avoiding the issue of this being a gameplay inconsistency. I think one thing that would have helped a little would be when you press the button down the animation starts, and finishes when released. That way there would have been at least some sort of indication that my character wasn't just a little slow in the head.
Treblaine said:
But Crysis 2's sprint is way faster than the regular-sprint of Crysis 1 (that is, holding sprint-key in Strength, Cloak or Armour Mode). Be reasonable, The sprint in Crysis 2 is closer to sprinting in max speed mode in Crysis 1, just not quite as fast, still over 30 miles per hour, just not highway cruising speed.
Surely you can see how two different sprints could be seen my the developers as redundant and THAT is why it was removed. Crysis 2 default movement speed is faster, and since you are OK with making claims on relative speed I think it's safe to say the default movement speed in Crysis 2 is like when the sprint key is held down in Crysis 1 or the default-speed in speed-mode (blah, such a mouthful, but you follow right?).
Crysis 2 could easily have had the sprint-speed of crysis 1, the jump height is the same if you actually compare it, I just think the developers found it too fast for pacing, or how they knew sprint distance should be further yet retaining such a high speed as well would be so overpowered and huge parts of the game would be skipped by. More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion.
Your use of the word redundant is a big reason why I said you were seeing Crysis as a shallow FPS. If two abilities did the exact same thing, then that'd of course be redundant, but you're lumping different aspects together into single concepts. Maybe their functions are close enough to you that removing those options doesn't matter, but it certainly makes a gameplay difference to me, and these aspects are simply not identical, that's a fact. By your line of thought, we may as well just have three weapons: assault rifle, shotgun, and pistol, because everything else is "redundant", right? Why clutter up the weapon list when it could be simplified.
I do see why they would lessen the sprint for the environments they made, but I still see it as a limitation, not necessarily for the raw speeds and distances. The sprint in Crysis 2 is functionally balanced to fulfill the standard FPS sprint role, which is not what speed sprint did in Crysis 1. Speed sprint was a very fast burst of speed that can be used to dart quickly in, out, and around danger, fundamentally different than the standard sprint used in all FPS games. And it's functionally different than how sprint is designed to be used in Crysis 2. So I agree that you can't really compare raw speeds between games because they've been balanced differently, but Crysis 2's sprint is functionally more comparable to Crysis 1's regular sprint because of how they are used relative to their respective games.
That said, the player's control over sprint has still been limited. Gone is the ability to quickly dart around. And no matter what, if I want to go at all faster my only option is to stand up, sprint forward, and use suit energy.
Treblaine said:
But as far as I can tell all speed does is give a faster sprint. I don't see anything being tangibly quicker, nor rifle reload speed nor changing stance. That mode's default speed is so similar to just holding down the sprint key, and that speed is so similar to the default-speed in Crysis 2. It doesn't seem speed-mode had any effect on reload speed of rifles and such, or at least no noticeable effect.
Firstly, not quite sure what you mean by "changing stance". If you mean switching between standing/crouching/prone, I never said that. I don't know if you change stance quicker but you do move faster while crouching and while prone. It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode. Make up your mind here.
And saying that movement speed in Crysis is akin to speed mode movement is not only wrong but defeats the point. (This bit is subjective) Turning something passive takes the fun out. The whole point of games is their interactivity, even if the default Crysis 2 speed was close to Crysis 1 in speed mode (it's not though), taking out the layer of control is my whole issue. It's no longer a decision, and when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness. You can't say Crysis 2 still has those features, because those features are the options that raise the skill ceiling and make me enjoy the game more. Anything that has become automatic or passive has lost the interactivity involved with it, lost the need for players to learn how best to control it, and thus lost the whole appeal of using it in a game.
You have to admit, Crysis 1 did feel very much like a big crazy tech demo with a whole load of stuff thrown together. I just found this got boring very quickly.
The suit modes emphasised the different abilities but stepping back and looking at it objectively they aren't so unique,
My problem with Super-Sprint in Crysis 1 is to spite the enjoyment of the speed it just chewed through the power so quick and cuts off when down to 20%, that means I sprint into combat with no suit energy (armour-mode depleted energy) to do anything or if in combat and low on energy I cannot escape.
There aspects actually ARE in Crysis 2:
-higher high jump and longer long jump, i especially love long jumping with a speeding flying strength kick at the end = you can do that is crysis 2, and it is in fact easier to perform at any instance.
-leaning = you KNOW you still have this capability with the analogue-lean feature in Crysis 2
-speed mode and all that came with it = if you mean the claim that Speed modes speeds up other things like reload speed, I don't see any evidence for that. Like Crysis 1 and 2 it seems to be just movement speed.
-night vision = Nanovision. Night vision was useless for how rarely you were ever in a situation that it actually helped. Thermal vision is far more useful for locating enemies where they are hard to see in the environment.
-large open environments and multiple objectives = same in Crysis 2, just without large empty jungle surrounding and added element of increased verticality
-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts = you don't have to use markers. Your list is suppoed to be things C1 had that C2 didn't, not things C2 had and C1 didn't but that you think are redundant.
-many vehicles on land, air, and sea = also have many vehicles in Crysis 2. You don't get to pilot a helicopter in the campaign of either Crysis 1 or Crysis 2.
-vehicle sections that don't feel on rails = Vehicles in Crysis 1 were equally on-rails in how they limited lateral movement pushing you forward.
-more physics, such as procedural destruction and forces affecting vegetation and smoke = you can also shoot to destroy trees and some objects in Crysis 2, and like Crysis 1 you have some objects inexplicably indestructible. For example, they only "destructible" buildings in Crysis 1 you couldn't actually deform any polygons, it was an arrangement of boards. It was like a house of cards, you could only collapse it over, not blow hole for an alternate entrance.
-FISTS = When you lack any weapon you have fists, But melee is just as fast and powerful, do we really need to clutter up the inventory cycling with such a redundant "weapon"?
-the tactical attatchment to fire sleep darts at enemies = Also under barrel attachment in Crysis 2 including under-barrel shotguns
-lighter movement, alcatraz moves much heavier and it feels clunkier and slightly harder to control accurately, this is really noticeable for some reason = I don't get this, the default movement speed is faster or as fast as in Crysis 1
But some of them are undoubtedly gone but I'd like to say something about each:
-actual health bar = might have been useful if enemy attacks didn't do so much damage, The point of a health bar is you can push limits but if you don't know if the next enemy bullet will deal 15 damage or 25 damage, it doesn't matter as soon as your health goes below 25% (red screen) you need to act like the next-bullet is death.
A visible health counter is only useful if you can - with reasonable and practical accuracy - know how much damage the next enemy hit will be, otherwise you are as poorly able to push the limits of your health as if you just had a red-ring around the screen when it gets low.
-prone = why? I only ever used this in Crysis 1 along with strength mode in a futile attempt at steadying the sway on my rifle in long range shooting, it didn't help. There is no point in going prone for concealment as there are so few barriers that low, and being in a jet black (sometimes glowing) suit being prone won't make you harder to see like a ghillie suit works, concealment works by the optical camouflage that works in any stance. Loads of similar games don't have prone.
The games that do value prone I value for how much it steadies your aim, how much it aids concealment and how much harder it makes for you to be hit.
-choosing between four different suit modes = how is this good? There are two active modes, the abilities of the other two modes can always be accessed.
-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump = the charge time is very short, and think about how you'd use a super-punch, you'd see the enemy you want to super-punch and advance towards them with melee key/button held down.
-especially the faster sprint which really differentiated itself from the standard fps sprint = Yeah it did, but it wasn't much slower in Crysis 2 yet took you much further. This could have been nerfed for balance or other practical reasons.
-being able to sprint in any direction, really helps strafing or going around corners, especially in speed mode = I guess it's nice but even if you moved HALF that speed you'd want to know exactly which way you were going. You can sprint diagonal, which is 45-degrees off centre which is interestingly right at the edge of where a 90-degree wide field of view would be.
Sprint can't aid circle strafing in Crysis as firing breaks the sprint action.
-32 player multiplayer with vehicles, capturable points that allow different strategies = I can't speak for multiplayer, I didn't play either, this doesn't seem to be the main feature of either.
-weapons and vehicles that launch nukes = That was only in Crysis multiplayer and a single point in the single-player game right?
-destroying car's tires to make them flip or hitting the gas tank to make them explode = I think you can also do the same in crysis 2 but in neither Crysis 1 or 2 have I been able to catch a vehicles as it is driving and shoot out one of its tires. Crysis 1 it's unreasonably hard for how high the weapon-sway is and how hard it is to get a high frame rate to make such a shot easier.
Crysis I find just too flawed in its overreaching design. They lost any kind of objective approach to abilities being simplistically divided between discrete modes. The only real nerf going to Crysis 2 was the speed of the sprint, everything else has been refined or changed for practical reasons.
I don't really see why i have to admit that C1 felt like a tech demo just because it offered more, and that seems an odd basis for boredom, but to each his own i guess.
Even though I didn't pick apart your list did you did so with mine, so i guess i'll try to return the favor:
-high/long jumps, you jump higher and further in C1, anyone can tell you that. and C2 doesn't even have a long jump like C1 does, it;s just kind of a regular jump that goes a wee bit further, and the punch at the end isn't more powerful like in C1 unless you charge it up.
-analogue leaning, it's awful. it's slow, doesn't work half the time, and isn't conducive to fast gunplay. i hate jumping behind cover and having to stop and reposition myself so that i'm sure it'll work. that auto lean thing is so goddamn clunky, it messes me up more than it helps and it's never consistent except on a few specific chest high barriers.
-i used night vision a lot, there were plenty of night levels. and nanovision is just annoying. why would i care how 'useful' it is when it isn't even fun to use. it's just a thermal vision that makes everything harder to see and breaks up the pacing.
-i'm sorry, but there is no way the (usually linear) verticality makes up for some of the big open levels like the harbor, where you have multiple objectives and can attack them from any angle using a whole range of tactics including vehicles. in C2 its all linear and head on, and C1 had verticality too with the towers and buildings.
-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts, ah the infamous 'don;t like it don't use it' argument. those markers tell you where everything is. even if i don't use them, i no longer have any reason to explore or anything because it's all been laid out for me. there's no discovery, no planning that the game hasn't already explained to me. it's boring. and defining how i use my list is a little petty, don't you think?
-vehicles, there weren't 'many' in C2, there were two... C1 had more land vehicles, water vehicles, and air vehicles. The only air vehicle you pilot in single player is the VTOL but they're all available in multiplayer. why would you even try to debate this... it's like you purposely just want to be conflicting even when you're wrong.
-you say vehicle sections are 'equally' on rails? as in, the same? really? have you actually played these games? that tank level in C1 was GINORMOUS. there were multiple objectives, different conflict areas, and most importantly, non-linear progression. it's impossible to complete that level by going in a straight line. in C2 you followed the road and even that was constrained by debris...
-more physics, it's a fallacy to disprove something by attacking another point. C1 doesn't have destruction like battlefield, but it does have more than C2. any tree that was a palm or skinnier could be procedurally broken, and all the vegetation reacted to things like a VTOL's engine or explosions.
-FISTS, fists are stronger than the normal melee attack with a weapon. it's not redundant because it's different. it's another choice i have at my disposal and i like that system, like how in tf2 you have to decide to pull out your melee weapon. allows for a little more skill, separates the men from the boys.
-tactical attachment, i'm not sure what you mean by 'Also under barrel attachment in Crysis 2', theres nothing in C2 even remotely like the tactical attachment.
-health bar, i think you've missed the point. you're only comparing a health bar to regenerating health on a moment by moment basis. you've ignored that using health bars offer a more consistent consequence, one that cannot simply be regained by hiding behind cover or the new max armor briefly.
-prone, i guess you didn't use it much, which is ok, but i used it tons. In multiplayer it's great for hiding in grass or bushes. in single player, the AI have a harder time noticing you when you're prone and you have less sway when aiming, cloak drains much slower. i used crouch more, but prone definitely had it's uses. It didn't hurt you or your experience right? why support its removal if other people enjoyed it?
-i prefer choosing between 4 modes because it's just more fun. C2 felt like a normal fps with a neat cloak mode, an overpowered oh shit now i'm invincible while i recharge my health mode, and gimmicky but ultimately pointless high jump and super punch. C1 doesn't feel like a normal fps and a big reason for that is the 4 different modes. i like having to switch between them it takes skill and offers a nice sense of risk vs reward for each situation. it's like how rpgs have classes or talent trees, they'd be boring if everything was just merged into one, and in C1 you switch between your modes like you would members of the party in an rpg. i just feel more involved, like i'm the one being badass, not just because the game tells me i am but because i'm good actually good at using the powers. I played C2 and it's multiplayer for a few months after release and though it was awesome, it never felt like much more than a standard fps.
-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump, the charge time is short yeah, but it's still there and it slows me down. why do you support slowing me down? and when i think of how i super punch, i don't advance towards the enemy with the button held down, that's weird and doesn't happen in any other game. when i think about super punching i super punch. period.
- sprinting when in speed mode is way faster in C1 than C2, and you can jump to launch yourself even faster. sprinting in speed mode was like one of the first big changes i noticed in C1 when i came from C2. I was like whooaaaaa.
-sprinting in any direction, i guess youre just gonna have to trust that I have decent spacial awareness and don't usually run into things like you do. And sorry, i didn't mean circle strafing like in a vehicle, that's my bad, bad terminology. I just meant quickly moving around someone while keeping them in view.
-i don't see how something not being a main feature gives it less value. why would you want to debate my point of enjoying the multiplayer more if it makes no difference to you? it's still just as fun regardless of how much hype it got. it's sad if you only judge the features of a game that were marketed most. fun is fun whether or not its a main feature, and that fun wasn't really carried over into C2.
-dude destroying the tires was really easy and can happen a lot... are you really complaining that it's hard to shoot tires because your frame rate is low? turn down the settings then... they even show you a good point to try shooting the tires in the opening nanosuit intro video.
I'd also like to add manual saves to my list because UGH the forced checkpoint system could get so annoying. i usually like to take the much slower, more stealthy approach and a lot of times there wouldn't be a single checkpoint for two or three different enemy encampments. so even though i meticulously dominate one section, a small mistake from the next one could set me way back. eventually i just stopped taking risks, losing a lot of the fun in the process, and played the generic fps way like the devs wanted.
But have we at least established that the option to increase movement speed across the board is not something you can do in Crysis 2, right? It's disappointing that you can't check quick and simple things like going into speed and switching weapons or moving around while crouched, or even see these things in any videos such as what basically amounts to a speed/cloak mode advertisement video I posted on page 2.
I can check simple things like switching weapons and the time is the same in Max-Speed mode.
Yes in Crysis 1 you move around faster in crouch in Max-speed mode relative to armour-mode. Also you do slow down in Crysis 2 when you activate Max-Armour in Crysis 2, so there you have your options for your "skill ceiling". It's a matter of where you set the baseline of movement speed, you move faster when NOT in armour mode in both Crysis 1 and Crysis 2!
I feel like both of these could be demonstrated with yet another video that displays basic mechanics that were inexplicably stricken from your game. Are you sure you're playing Crysis 1 or Warhead?
(Sorry for the choppiness, I had to use my roommate's computer)
I tried to re-create that exactly and it is NOTHING like that! I have strength mode on and left-click with fists weapon selected, the best I can ever do is get it to flip on it's side. NOT go flying and spinning through the air ploughing through trees and exploding!
My test looked more like this:
Actually, looking at your video it seems really odd. It was just a jab to the door-frame that sent it spinning and flying away, knocking over several trees and then exploding. It just looks ridiculous. You sure your roommate didn't change some of the strength-values in the game? Just look at this game that HAS been modified for increased strength values:
that's 10'000x normal strength, are you absolutely positively sure that the strength is not scaled? Obviously not to 10'000x strength, but maybe just 1000x strength?
You can't hold the button for longer than necessary, you automatically punch once it's charged enough. Letting go anytime before that and you throw a normal punch. If I bind my record button to the same button as melee and check on Adobe Premiere at what point energy was drained to signify the start of the punch, I get .734 seconds. So yeah 1 second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's very noticeable in combat, especially on the harder difficulties. Using a strength punch is basically useless on the hardest difficulty purely because it takes too long.
In Crysis 1 it could be very useful and didn't force you to stand there like an idiot eating bullets while you charged up. And if someone was out of reach you could perform a quick sprint speed long jump flying max strength haymaker to the face without having to wait for the game to process your actions. It's awkward for me to have to wait for the game to throw my punch when before it just did what I said when I said.
That does make an assumption that there is no lag with the energy meter? You couldn't have just hit an object and gone frame by frame till you saw it move? Anyway, assuming you are right on your timing estimate that's not unbearable, 0.73-sec swing time for a one hit kill, I am used to in Left 4 Dead 2, where all the melee weapon are similarly one-hit-kills they take around 0.6-0.8 second to hit.
What stops me using super punch against soldiers in Crysis 1 combat was how weak the armour mode was even on normal-difficulty you lost so much health and could easily lose all your energy so you could not do the super punch. Same with trying to use the Cloak or speed sprinting up to them. And how once you hit (or missed) the enemy you were left in strength mode and any other soldiers immediately chewed you to pieces. The Stealth and Armour mode in Crysis 2 were so much more substantial, it was actually possible to get close to the enemy to deliver these close kills without dying!
The ridiculous "12 step process" (which I still find to be a desperate attempt at making something incredibly simple sound complicated) is at least all based on the player, and I'll always take requiring more skill over having the game do it for me.
I can't think of a single game that jumps on key release instead of key press. It doesn't happen in any Valve games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Battlefield, platformers like Mario and Sonic. I'm obviously not gonna check all my games, but I definitely can't think of another game that does it that way. In Crysis 2 I hit jump and it feels like my character is simply slow to react. Having played games my whole life, and especially being a fan of shooters, it's a specifically awkward feeling.
And I feel like you're just using the word intuitive as a cop-out buzz word. A longer delay might feel more realistic (though you could simply say the point of the nanosuit is that the extra strength allows you to perform these actions at regular speed but with more power) because you have to pull your arm back, but I'm not talking about the delay between tensing your muscles and letting fly a punch, I'm talking about a delay between your brain sending the signal and your muscles even receiving them.
The jump and melee buttons are the only ones that activate on key release. Moving, shooting, crouching, using powers, etc, all happen immediately like in every other game, except jump and punch wait slightly before even starting. It's very noticeable to me, and I think is a big reason why Hobonicus mentioned Alcatraz feeling clunky. You can try to call it realistic, but I think that's grasping and avoiding the issue of this being a gameplay inconsistency. I think one thing that would have helped a little would be when you press the button down the animation starts, and finishes when released. That way there would have been at least some sort of indication that my character wasn't just a little slow in the head.
You keep calling it ridiculous, but you never dispute any single part of that 12 step process. Sorry, that's not refuting my argument, that is just denying it.
I didn't say it was just for "on key release" I said some kind of delay on jump. In digital foundry's investigation into input latency they used Halo 3 as an example where the jump has deliberate lag, hence why they test input lag with gunfire that should be instantaneous as it's so simple to pull a trigger and the firing sequence of a mechanism should microsecond not milliseconds. But character animations so often have deliberate lag that you can't be sure if it is the software that is causing input lag or the designed animation.
I don't think you realise how well established the tap/hold dichotomy is used in video games. The crouch in all the COD games, tap to crouch and hold to prone. There is no noticeable extra lag on crouching. It's the same dichotomy in the opposite direction with jump, tap for small vertical movement, hold for larger one.
Your use of the word redundant is a big reason why I said you were seeing Crysis as a shallow FPS. If two abilities did the exact same thing, then that'd of course be redundant, but you're lumping different aspects together into single concepts. Maybe their functions are close enough to you that removing those options doesn't matter, but it certainly makes a gameplay difference to me, and these aspects are simply not identical, that's a fact. By your line of thought, we may as well just have three weapons: assault rifle, shotgun, and pistol, because everything else is "redundant", right? Why clutter up the weapon list when it could be simplified.
I do see why they would lessen the sprint for the environments they made, but I still see it as a limitation, not necessarily for the raw speeds and distances. The sprint in Crysis 2 is functionally balanced to fulfill the standard FPS sprint role, which is not what speed sprint did in Crysis 1. Speed sprint was a very fast burst of speed that can be used to dart quickly in, out, and around danger, fundamentally different than the standard sprint used in all FPS games. And it's functionally different than how sprint is designed to be used in Crysis 2. So I agree that you can't really compare raw speeds between games because they've been balanced differently, but Crysis 2's sprint is functionally more comparable to Crysis 1's regular sprint because of how they are used relative to their respective games.
That said, the player's control over sprint has still been limited. Gone is the ability to quickly dart around. And no matter what, if I want to go at all faster my only option is to stand up, sprint forward, and use suit energy.
Sorry, you say Crysis 2's sprint is to "fulfill the standard FPS sprint role". Then your description of the sprint in Crysis 1 would also fit in that definition that is not fundamentally different! You saying it is, isn't enough. You can dart quickly in/out/around danger is Crysis 2 with its sprint. It's just a matter of proportion not fitting with your tastes. You cannot claim a fundamental difference.
I am really sure that the default-speed in crysis 2 is the movement speed with sprint-key held down, or in Max-speed mode. And in Crysis 2 you slow down in Max Armour mode, to about the speed in Crysis-1's max-strength/armour mode. The three speeds for the tactical variety are STILL THERE. Do you see what I mean by having redundancy?
If you are in armour mode in Crysis 2, you don't have to sprint to go faster, you could disengage armour mode. Do you see your obsession with the WAY CRYSIS 1 IS has blinded you to the reality of the way crysis 2 is?
Firstly, not quite sure what you mean by "changing stance". If you mean switching between standing/crouching/prone, I never said that. I don't know if you change stance quicker but you do move faster while crouching and while prone. It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode. Make up your mind here.
And saying that movement speed in Crysis is akin to speed mode movement is not only wrong but defeats the point. (This bit is subjective) Turning something passive takes the fun out. The whole point of games is their interactivity, even if the default Crysis 2 speed was close to Crysis 1 in speed mode (it's not though), taking out the layer of control is my whole issue. It's no longer a decision, and when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness. You can't say Crysis 2 still has those features, because those features are the options that raise the skill ceiling and make me enjoy the game more. Anything that has become automatic or passive has lost the interactivity involved with it, lost the need for players to learn how best to control it, and thus lost the whole appeal of using it in a game.
"It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode."
No, what you misunderstand is that the default movement velocity in speed-mode is the speed in the other-modes with sprint held down (fractionally different, effectively identical), the only practical change is you don't have to hold down the sprint key. In speed mode you don't have to hold the sprint key, holding the spritn key initiates what should be a proper sprint.
Now "sprint" semantically means more than "move faster". It is moving as fast as you can at a sacrifice of sustainability, you can only sprint for a few seconds. Not a marathon where you "run" for several hours. In every mode but Max-speed, holding the sprint key you don't move as fast as you can, you move at a sustainable speed and it's dumb that you cannot shoot in that mode.
"when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness."
Why should it be that it's "purpose" is to be a "separate thing"? This is ridiculous and I'll tell you why it is ridiculous, because you are expecting that a button has to be held down to do something mundane as moving forward at a steady and continuous pace, just to give it "uniqueness" and "balance". What we are talking about here is holding down shift to move at a constant high speed, which though labelled sprint isn't a sprint. A sprint by definition is your fastest run that you cannot sustain for long.
Just hold the W key. Going back to Crysis, it pisses me off hold I was constantly holding down the Shift-key in Crysis 1, and hold I couldn't fire while holding it.
Yeah, I went back to Crysis and weirdly enough I now CAN jump while holding down sprint. The change came after a loading screen to the next level after (where Prophet gets carried off) it suddenly works. Anyway, I tried the double-tap jump as you suggested and I noticed something I suspected in your video. Even though you sprint forward in Speed-mode and can double-click space to perform super jump, the vectors are NOT combined like in Crysis 2. That is to spite speeding forward at the speed of a car your point from jump is no higher than if you were just in strength mode pressing W and then Space key. It's really weird, I seem to change direction in air with forward velocity increasing and turning to vertical velocity. Very weird.
I also investigated the car tire shot and I realise now why I can't get those shots. The humvee-like cars need TWO BULLETS from the assault rifle to shoot out a tire!!! It's only 1/3 ounce of lead at 2300 feet per second, that's alone is somehow not enough to shoot out a tire!!! FFFUUUUUU-
I may try the 10'000 strength scale in Crysis 1 along with super-health as that actually does look like fun, unlike the games I've played. My recent memory is nothing but trying to advance on a KPA soldier in armour mode as they walk back unloading a mag into my face as I try to take a swing at them, and give up and just shoot them.
It's everything but generic. It does most things differently from other shooters. And in a good way, not in useless gimmick kind of way. Nanosuit and realistic physics are integral parts of the game that make all the difference. It also had switch for full auto, burst or single shot, as well as some different ammo mods. That made it even more awesome. Also, weapon modification on the fly? That was pure brilliance!
Too bad Crysis 2 was so dumbed down. Now that is a generic shooter with gimmicks.
I don't really see why i have to admit that C1 felt like a tech demo just because it offered more, and that seems an odd basis for boredom, but to each his own i guess.
Even though I didn't pick apart your list did you did so with mine, so i guess i'll try to return the favor:
1-high/long jumps, you jump higher and further in C1, anyone can tell you that. and C2 doesn't even have a long jump like C1 does, it;s just kind of a regular jump that goes a wee bit further, and the punch at the end isn't more powerful like in C1 unless you charge it up.
2-analogue leaning, it's awful. it's slow, doesn't work half the time, and isn't conducive to fast gunplay. i hate jumping behind cover and having to stop and reposition myself so that i'm sure it'll work. that auto lean thing is so goddamn clunky, it messes me up more than it helps and it's never consistent except on a few specific chest high barriers.
3-i used night vision a lot, there were plenty of night levels. and nanovision is just annoying. why would i care how 'useful' it is when it isn't even fun to use. it's just a thermal vision that makes everything harder to see and breaks up the pacing.
4-i'm sorry, but there is no way the (usually linear) verticality makes up for some of the big open levels like the harbor, where you have multiple objectives and can attack them from any angle using a whole range of tactics including vehicles. in C2 its all linear and head on, and C1 had verticality too with the towers and buildings.
5-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts, ah the infamous 'don;t like it don't use it' argument. those markers tell you where everything is. even if i don't use them, i no longer have any reason to explore or anything because it's all been laid out for me. there's no discovery, no planning that the game hasn't already explained to me. it's boring. and defining how i use my list is a little petty, don't you think?
6-vehicles, there weren't 'many' in C2, there were two... C1 had more land vehicles, water vehicles, and air vehicles. The only air vehicle you pilot in single player is the VTOL but they're all available in multiplayer. why would you even try to debate this... it's like you purposely just want to be conflicting even when you're wrong.
7-you say vehicle sections are 'equally' on rails? as in, the same? really? have you actually played these games? that tank level in C1 was GINORMOUS. there were multiple objectives, different conflict areas, and most importantly, non-linear progression. it's impossible to complete that level by going in a straight line. in C2 you followed the road and even that was constrained by debris...
8-more physics, it's a fallacy to disprove something by attacking another point. C1 doesn't have destruction like battlefield, but it does have more than C2. any tree that was a palm or skinnier could be procedurally broken, and all the vegetation reacted to things like a VTOL's engine or explosions.
9-FISTS, fists are stronger than the normal melee attack with a weapon. it's not redundant because it's different. it's another choice i have at my disposal and i like that system, like how in tf2 you have to decide to pull out your melee weapon. allows for a little more skill, separates the men from the boys.
10-tactical attachment, i'm not sure what you mean by 'Also under barrel attachment in Crysis 2', theres nothing in C2 even remotely like the tactical attachment.
11-health bar, i think you've missed the point. you're only comparing a health bar to regenerating health on a moment by moment basis. you've ignored that using health bars offer a more consistent consequence, one that cannot simply be regained by hiding behind cover or the new max armor briefly.
12-prone, i guess you didn't use it much, which is ok, but i used it tons. In multiplayer it's great for hiding in grass or bushes. in single player, the AI have a harder time noticing you when you're prone and you have less sway when aiming, cloak drains much slower. i used crouch more, but prone definitely had it's uses. It didn't hurt you or your experience right? why support its removal if other people enjoyed it?
13-i prefer choosing between 4 modes because it's just more fun. C2 felt like a normal fps with a neat cloak mode, an overpowered oh shit now i'm invincible while i recharge my health mode, and gimmicky but ultimately pointless high jump and super punch. C1 doesn't feel like a normal fps and a big reason for that is the 4 different modes. i like having to switch between them it takes skill and offers a nice sense of risk vs reward for each situation. it's like how rpgs have classes or talent trees, they'd be boring if everything was just merged into one, and in C1 you switch between your modes like you would members of the party in an rpg. i just feel more involved, like i'm the one being badass, not just because the game tells me i am but because i'm good actually good at using the powers. I played C2 and it's multiplayer for a few months after release and though it was awesome, it never felt like much more than a standard fps.
14-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump, the charge time is short yeah, but it's still there and it slows me down. why do you support slowing me down? and when i think of how i super punch, i don't advance towards the enemy with the button held down, that's weird and doesn't happen in any other game. when i think about super punching i super punch. period.
15- sprinting when in speed mode is way faster in C1 than C2, and you can jump to launch yourself even faster. sprinting in speed mode was like one of the first big changes i noticed in C1 when i came from C2. I was like whooaaaaa.
16-sprinting in any direction, i guess youre just gonna have to trust that I have decent spacial awareness and don't usually run into things like you do. And sorry, i didn't mean circle strafing like in a vehicle, that's my bad, bad terminology. I just meant quickly moving around someone while keeping them in view.
17-i don't see how something not being a main feature gives it less value. why would you want to debate my point of enjoying the multiplayer more if it makes no difference to you? it's still just as fun regardless of how much hype it got. it's sad if you only judge the features of a game that were marketed most. fun is fun whether or not its a main feature, and that fun wasn't really carried over into C2.
18-dude destroying the tires was really easy and can happen a lot... are you really complaining that it's hard to shoot tires because your frame rate is low? turn down the settings then... they even show you a good point to try shooting the tires in the opening nanosuit intro video.
19-I'd also like to add manual saves to my list because UGH the forced checkpoint system could get so annoying. i usually like to take the much slower, more stealthy approach and a lot of times there wouldn't be a single checkpoint for two or three different enemy encampments. so even though i meticulously dominate one section, a small mistake from the next one could set me way back. eventually i just stopped taking risks, losing a lot of the fun in the process, and played the generic fps way like the devs wanted.
1-have you actually compared high-jumps side by side in Crysis 1 and Crysis 2? They really are almost identical
2-Lean keys are equally awkward for how you have to hold them down and manipulate A and D keys to peek. The only possible way is to press lean in one direction then rech up with the thumb to press A and D. There is NO WAY to carefully inch by inch peek over the top of a horizontal ledge in crysis 1.
3-Not fun to use Nanovision? But that's Predator mode! You know, that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. And nanovision is as useful in daytime and night as well as when there is dust or fog in the air.
4-There was some verticality in Crysis 1 but no where near as much in Crysis 2 were so often you would enter an area from an elevated position, Crysis 1 it was really limited to shooting some guy at a machine gun post on top of a building or watch tower.
5-Your list WAS of things that Crysis 2 lacks compared to Crysis 1, yet you list the opposite with the markers! What is so infamous about "don't like it, don't use it" seriously? It's not fallacy, it makes perfect sense, to not use it. This is you complaining that you are NOT limited!
6- All right, so technically on occasion you get more vehicles, but the two key types: the armoured car and the tank were still there.
7- Sorry but I mainly remember the boat run in Crysis 1 was hugely "on rails", it was racing up a narrow river system as helicopters shot the shit out of you.
8-"it's a fallacy to disprove something by attacking another point."
... WHAT?!? How else am I supposed to challenge a point if I can't challenge it! You may spuriously call such a challenge an "attack" but you can't say your points are infallible and cannot be touched! If you mean "another point" as in a separate issue, I think you mean use a Straw Man fallacy (here, I'm listing the fallacies you could use against me) it is not because the BF3 example is relevant to the issue of the VALUE of destructible environment.
Destructible environment there just for the sake of it is an example of why Crysis 1 earns the tech-demo label, there were so few ways it could actually be applied to gameplay. But BF3 the destructible environments were key in how to go about objectives.
And there is also a plausible explanation why so little destructible environments in Crysis 2, because it's set in a city where almost all structures are made of concrete and cinder blocks, and Crysis 1 is on a tropical island where light shed-like structures are to be expected as they just have to keep off the rain not block out the cold of harsh winters.
9-Really? Who says fists are more powerful? It takes the same number of hits to kill pressing the melee button or selecting fists and attacking.
"Sort the men from the boys" and what is THIS faux-machismo crap? I am fed up with this double standard, when Crysis 2 has something that is in any way hard but DIFFERENT from crysis 1 they whine bitterly like old women, yet if something is harder in Crysis 1 compared to C2, it's suddenly a macho challenge to over come. Flip flopping from tough-guy to overwhelmed.
10-Yes there is something similar to tactical attachment, any of the weapons with a silencer. You can't quibble over one redundant feature going when there are still plenty of varied under-barrel attachments.
11-OK, so beyond the moment-by-moment basis... then they are even MORE the same as both Crysis 1 and 2 had rebounding health, you knew after a few seconds all your health would be restored. Consistent consequence applies just as much to if there is or is not a visible health bar/counter. You need a counter for suit energy as you know how much or what rate each ability/mode uses power and can push limits, but can't do the same with your health vs damage. You have missed or ignored MY point!
12-I don't support the removal of Prone, I just don't care. Most of the FPS games I have played and loved from Half Life series, FEAR, Bioshock, Left 4 Dead, System Shock, Team Fortress 2 and so on, Prone is not there and not missed. I can't have a double standard of hating Crysis 2 for not having prone but not also hating Half Life 2 a little bit for lacking it as well.
In my experience with Crysis 1, prone has such an insignificant effect on the enemy's ability to see you, the only way to not be noticed, if you are in line of sight, is to be in Cloak. It was similarly ineffectual in reducing weapon sway and recoil. But the real kicker was precisely how cluttered the environment is, neither Crysis 1 or 2 are barren games with long geometric flatness, there is almost always stuff on the ground so going prone you can't see your target.
13- I don't find it fun having to give up the abilities of one mode to use the abilities of another, that is a huge compromise. Crysis 1 IS all that Crysis 2 is, but with modes! You've been had by the gimmick of modes. Your assessment of Crysis 2:
"a neat cloak mode, an overpowered oh shit now i'm invincible while i recharge my health mode, and gimmicky but ultimately pointless high jump and super punch."
Yet if they are divided into 4 modes in Crysis 1, fundamentally limiting their use, it's somehow better. Something more than a standard FPS.
"in C1 you switch between your modes like you would members of the party in an rpg."
That's not the super-soldier I signed up to be, Micro-managing 4 characters in one, rather than a single super-soldier! If you like RPG elements, why not the Modules in Crysis 2? Anyway, this is not an RPG like Elder Scrolls or KOTOR, this is Strategy like Final Fantasy turn-based-battle games, that Final Fantasy games are RPGs, the group-management is not defining of RPGs but what defines Final Fantasy as an RPG-Strategy.
By the way, it's a reasonable limitation to not use Cloak AND Armour at the same time for their contradictory purpose, that they should be mutually exclusive, and clearly things that have to operate over an extended time period and not an instant. But a burst of speed, a great leap or a huge powerful punch should not be modes but abilities to trigger.
14- Well some consistency would be nice. You welcome the huge limitation of discrete suit modes that you cannot directly switch to as a challenge, yet the tiny fraction of a second delay for very-powerful moves is unbearable. Give me a break, I don't buy this. It doesn't slow you down having to think such a short time ahead. Leading attacks is a well established element of FPS games, even with melee attacks, in left 4 dead 2 the weak knock-back melee is instant but the melee weapons are one hit kill but have a long swing time, there is a fraction of a second delay from clicking to the swing hitting as you'd expect, you can pull a trigger quicker than swing an axe. Or in Crysis 2's case wind back a fist for a super-punch
15- The Fastest Sprint in Crysis 1 may be slightly faster in Crysis 2 but I've found you can actually perform those huge distance jumps in Crysis 2.
I managed to get my copy of Crysis working so I can super-jump while sprint in Max-Speed mode by double-tapping Space (jump) but I found that the forward velocity of my sprint was not added to my vertical velocity of super jump, the forward velocity got cancelled and just got the high jump. It's pointless.
I'll still like Crysis 2 more because the sprint take me WAY further and how you can easily and ACTUALLY combine it with the super-jump.
16-What is the point in strafing where you are not looking, I suppose to keep aiming at your enemy except as I think I pointed out you cannot shoot and "sprint" at the same time! I can sprint in any direction in Half Life 2 AND shoot as I do so, but not in Crysis! You want to sprint at that speed, even at Crysis 2's sprint, you'll surely want to look where you are going! Why do you need to look at the enemy?
You know why I never tried sprinting to the side or backwards is Crysis 1? Other than how it makes sense to look where you are going at that speed? It makes sense that you could travel your fastest possible speed going FORWARD. I think Usain Bolt couldn't ever sprint as fast running backwards or sidewys going as forwards, no matter how much he trained. Your arms can punch forwards and legs easily propelled forwards to take the next bound. Stepping to the side or back is reasonably the same speed as stepping forward, but sprinting is more than simply faster stepping.
17- No, it's just I don't want to discuss multiplayer because I have not played either, nor do I care to. I didn't care about Bioshock 2's multiplayer either, I don't see why the game would need it. Anyway, I have no experience with them so have nothing to say on them.
18- Realise it's not just the frame-rate, a whole load of factors like the generally weird hit detection and the huge sway on most weapons, I remember sniping the guards on that compound where the CIA-agent was held. My crosshairs were waving about so much and even when I was sure I had my crosshairs dead over their heart when I fired I'd just hit the dirt. I didn't have the same problem sniping in other games like TF2 or COD4.
And, this is all based on the assumption the same cannot be done in Crysis 2, says who? I saw ties being shot out in demos of Crysis 1 and that's it. I never got a chance to test it in EITHER crysis 1 or 2, every time I see a vehicle, even if driving, it has moved out of my line of sight or stopped before I can line up the sights with any of the tires. I realise I could only do it in a scenario like this, which is a custom map by the way and they knew what was coming:
And it's hardly that dramatic, it jumped a bit and they all safely piled out. If I'd shot the driver they'd be minus one occupant and it would probably have continued with forward speed and crashed more catastrophically.
I've also discovered this one-shot tire pop is ONLY possible with a weapon as powerful as the sniper rifle, the assault rifle needs TWO count em TWO shots to a tire to pop it. Wow. No wonder I never got this shot, I always though I missed, I probably did hit but I needed TWO HITS BRUAHAHAHAAAAAAH!!! *MAXIMUM RAGE*
19- I'll concede on no-quicksaving, that is the ONE FEATURE that crysis 2 is severely lacking in as quick-saving is such a great way to explore a game world, to try new things without fear of death forcing you to retrace so much. But on the other hand, I do often force myself to not use quicksave, if there is an auto-save in place otherwise I quicksave as a crutch. But I want that choice to NOT use quicksave, not to have the entire mechanism taken from me.
But to me, the risk taking is in NOT quicksaving, it's a different approach to take more chances and not break your rhythm or plan to die.
Also you didn't seem to have anything negative to say about these Crysis 2 improvements:
-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-longer cloak + sprint time
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades Modules with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics
It's everything but generic. It does most things differently from other shooters. And in a good way, not in useless gimmick kind of way. Nanosuit and realistic physics are integral parts of the game that make all the difference. It also had switch for full auto, burst or single shot, as well as some different ammo mods. That made it even more awesome. Also, weapon modification on the fly? That was pure brilliance!
Too bad Crysis 2 was so dumbed down. Now that is a generic shooter with gimmicks.
Crysis 2 has the same amount of cutscenes as crysis 1 and you can just as much cloak walk though both games.
I don't get the complaints about Crysis 2, people call it Gimmicky for having the same features as Crysis 1 yet lacking the gimmick of suit-modes. No consistency.
That's not true, and it's even noticeable enough with any weapon to be obvious. Another quick thing you can check, try setting up/reloading a missile launcher in speed mode. Very useful for when someone is barreling down on you in a vehicle. The skilled player might switched to speed mode, pull out their missile launcher and fire, the less skilled player might just get torn up while switching to the missile launcher while in armor mode.
Treblaine said:
Yes in Crysis 1 you move around faster in crouch in Max-speed mode relative to armour-mode. Also you do slow down in Crysis 2 when you activate Max-Armour in Crysis 2, so there you have your options for your "skill ceiling". It's a matter of where you set the baseline of movement speed, you move faster when NOT in armour mode in both Crysis 1 and Crysis 2!
In Crysis 2, armor is an activated mode like cloak that drains your energy. You do not move around for extended periods of time in it, the slowdown is a consequence and does not demonstrate what the game accepts and balances as default movement speed. In Crysis 1 it's a default suit mode (one of three) in which you move at the default movement speed and you spend much more time in it than Crysis 2. One cannot choose to be able to move faster in all areas, the only choice made is one of neglect.
Treblaine said:
WHAT THA FUUUUUUU-
I tried to re-create that exactly and it is NOTHING like that! I have strength mode on and left-click with fists weapon selected, the best I can ever do is get it to flip on it's side. NOT go flying and spinning through the air ploughing through trees and exploding!
It's a completely fresh install, no mods, no enhancements not even the keybindings are changed. The explosion came from a tree falling on it.
Treblaine said:
That does make an assumption that there is no lag with the energy meter? You couldn't have just hit an object and gone frame by frame till you saw it move? Anyway, assuming you are right on your timing estimate that's not unbearable, 0.73-sec swing time for a one hit kill, I am used to in Left 4 Dead 2, where all the melee weapon are similarly one-hit-kills they take around 0.6-0.8 second to hit.
The energy meter depletes before the swing animation even happens. If I waited until the object I hit moved it would certainly be more than a second. I don't understand your comparison to L4D2, which I play a lot. In L4D2 when you hit the attack button you swing your melee weapon instantly. There's no charge time, no delay before your character attacks, they swing right when you tell them to.
Treblaine said:
What stops me using super punch against soldiers in Crysis 1 combat was how weak the armour mode was even on normal-difficulty you lost so much health and could easily lose all your energy so you could not do the super punch. Same with trying to use the Cloak or speed sprinting up to them. And how once you hit (or missed) the enemy you were left in strength mode and any other soldiers immediately chewed you to pieces. The Stealth and Armour mode in Crysis 2 were so much more substantial, it was actually possible to get close to the enemy to deliver these close kills without dying!
I don't mean this as a personal insult to you, but this is an entirely skill related issue.
Treblaine said:
You keep calling it ridiculous, but you never dispute any single part of that 12 step process. Sorry, that's not refuting my argument, that is just denying it.
Because I keep expecting you to come to your senses and realize how ridiculous it really is. First of all, you stubbornly use the hardest method when an easier solution is available at no consequence. Secondly, you seem to assume the average user is some kind of inhuman idiot lacking any form of muscle memory and unable to perform the slightest action without consciously considering it first. "Select speed from radial menu" should be one action, not "activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu", what kind of idiot has to think about and get flustered by something so simple to make natural? When you take a step do you say "ok now I have to put one foot forward -> slow down to make sure the foot touches down in front of me -> place foot directly flat on the ground -> put weight onto placed foot -> etc"?
I said it's ridiculous and didn't add more because your whole 12-step-process speaks for itself. Anyone can see it as a silly attempt to overcomplicate.
Treblaine said:
I didn't say it was just for "on key release" I said some kind of delay on jump. In digital foundry's investigation into input latency they used Halo 3 as an example where the jump has deliberate lag, hence why they test input lag with gunfire that should be instantaneous as it's so simple to pull a trigger and the firing sequence of a mechanism should microsecond not milliseconds. But character animations so often have deliberate lag that you can't be sure if it is the software that is causing input lag or the designed animation.
This is so pointless. There is a longer delay between pressing the button and the game to even realize that a jump needs to be initiated than any other game I can think of. Done.
Treblaine said:
I don't think you realise how well established the tap/hold dichotomy is used in video games. The crouch in all the COD games, tap to crouch and hold to prone. There is no noticeable extra lag on crouching. It's the same dichotomy in the opposite direction with jump, tap for small vertical movement, hold for larger one.
It's been a while since I've played CoD, but I'm guessing it isn't a tap to crouch, hold to prone situation like you say. You probably crouch immediately when the crouch button is pressed and go into prone after it's held. That's different, and only comparable to a jump where pressing space immediately makes you jump, but holding it while in the air makes your jump continue higher. That is a common use of holding jump for a variable height seen in most platformers, that is entirely different than Crysis 2 where the type of jump can't even be considered until you've let go of the button.
If however in CoD the player does indeed not crouch/prone until the button is released, then that sounds like a clunky system.
Treblaine said:
Sorry, you say Crysis 2's sprint is to "fulfill the standard FPS sprint role". Then your description of the sprint in Crysis 1 would also fit in that definition that is not fundamentally different! You saying it is, isn't enough. You can dart quickly in/out/around danger is Crysis 2 with its sprint. It's just a matter of proportion not fitting with your tastes. You cannot claim a fundamental difference.
The features in both games are balanced to work certain ways in their respective games. In Crysis 2, the relationship of your sprint to the enemy/environment does not allow for the same strategies that the relationship between speed sprint and the enemy/environment does in Crysis 1. They are not used for the same purpose. The sprint in Crysis 2 is used for the same purpose that the regular sprint in Crysis 1 is used for.
Treblaine said:
I am really sure that the default-speed in crysis 2 is the movement speed with sprint-key held down, or in Max-speed mode. And in Crysis 2 you slow down in Max Armour mode, to about the speed in Crysis-1's max-strength/armour mode. The three speeds for the tactical variety are STILL THERE. Do you see what I mean by having redundancy?
If you are in armour mode in Crysis 2, you don't have to sprint to go faster, you could disengage armour mode. Do you see your obsession with the WAY CRYSIS 1 IS has blinded you to the reality of the way crysis 2 is?
That'd be a decent point if it didn't ignore that the Crysis 1 speed sprint is used for different reasons than your normal sprint, and that speed mode offers other speed related perks than just movement speed while standing, and that this speed is available in cloak thus negating the trade-off there, and that the slowdown is a consequence balanced to act as a slowdown relative to the rest of the game and not as reverting to default speed.
The games both have default speeds, relative to the game they exist in. You say that these things are proportional to their games then compared raw speeds without context. The Crysis 2 default speed isn't simply "Crysis 1 in speed mode", it's the default movement speed, built to exist as a default movement speed with certain enemies and environments in mind. And you just made up that bit about Crysis 2 default movement being equal to moving in speed mode.
Treblaine said:
Now "sprint" semantically means more than "move faster". It is moving as fast as you can at a sacrifice of sustainability, you can only sprint for a few seconds. Not a marathon where you "run" for several hours. In every mode but Max-speed, holding the sprint key you don't move as fast as you can, you move at a sustainable speed and it's dumb that you cannot shoot in that mode.
Now tell me where in that definition it says we're only allowed to go faster when our nanosuits have energy. If you're out of suit energy, it is impossible to go faster than the default movement speed. In Crysis 1 the suit is an auxiliary device meant to take the character beyond normal limits, I suppose being able to sprint indefinitely isn't as realistic, but where actual gameplay is concerned the options are more than Crysis 2 gives you.
Treblaine said:
"when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness."
Why should it be that it's "purpose" is to be a "separate thing"? This is ridiculous and I'll tell you why it is ridiculous, because you are expecting that a button has to be held down to do something mundane as moving forward at a steady and continuous pace, just to give it "uniqueness" and "balance". What we are talking about here is holding down shift to move at a constant high speed, which though labelled sprint isn't a sprint. A sprint by definition is your fastest run that you cannot sustain for long.
Just hold the W key. Going back to Crysis, it pisses me off hold I was constantly holding down the Shift-key in Crysis 1, and hold I couldn't fire while holding it.
Call it sprint, call it running fast, I don't care. What you call it doesn't change its function. If you want to fire while moving at the speed of a regular sprint (or regular fast run or whatever is important to you that it's called) then switch to speed mode. You lose the additional armor and gain the ability to fire while moving quickly, and if you're in danger then switch back and forth between them as needed.
You also can fire immediately while sprinting, it slows you down to the normal running speed but if you're still holding sprint when you let off the trigger you instantly continue sprinting as usual. Firing in small bursts makes the slowdown minimal. This is more than what Crysis 2 offers, in which trying to fire while sprinting forces you to completely slow before even pulling the gun up to a firing position and you have to release and redo the sprint after you finish firing. So firing in small bursts while sprinting is inefficient and ineffective in Crysis 2 whereas in Crysis 1 the sprint is barely affected.
The options are there for people to use them, and those who utilize those options fare better than those who don't. Giving the option increases the range of possible skill, making it automatic for everyone allows for no chance of getting better.
Treblaine said:
Yeah, I went back to Crysis and weirdly enough I now CAN jump while holding down sprint. The change came after a loading screen to the next level after (where Prophet gets carried off) it suddenly works. Anyway, I tried the double-tap jump as you suggested and I noticed something I suspected in your video. Even though you sprint forward in Speed-mode and can double-click space to perform super jump, the vectors are NOT combined like in Crysis 2. That is to spite speeding forward at the speed of a car your point from jump is no higher than if you were just in strength mode pressing W and then Space key. It's really weird, I seem to change direction in air with forward velocity increasing and turning to vertical velocity. Very weird.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Do you expect to go higher when combining sprint speed and a strength jump?
And I saw you mention to someone else that hitmarkers were new to the series in Crysis 2 and I'd like to point out that when you shoot someone in Crysis 1 your reticule turns red to indicate they were hit.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
