Why do you like Obama?

Uncompetative

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If you think the deregulation of the US financial system by the party most responsible for 'cutting red-tape' was a good idea and...

If you think the government's response to Hurricane Katrina was rapid despite it being in a region not known for voting Republican and...

If you think it was a prudent allocation of military resources to assign less troops to searching the caves of Afganistan and Pakistan and...

If you think the invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein has brought greater stability and democracy to the Middle East, then you should definitely vote for McCain and Palin of the Republican Party next month.

I expect you can guess where I'm going with this...
 

Godheval

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Aug 23, 2007
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Serge Drago post=18.73968.817411 said:
And let's not forget his seemingly best friend Raila Odinga.
Wow, Serge, I'm trying to remain civil here, but you're a douchebag.

How do you go from this connection...

Raila Odinga ---acquaintance---> Barack Obama, Sr. ---absentee father of---> Barack Obama, Jr.

to

Raila Odinga ---best friend of---> Barack Obama, Jr.

I guess friendship is hereditary, huh?

Are you seriously out of your mind, or are you just trying to butcher the facts? And while we're at it, what do you even know about Raila Odinga? Since when does anyone in the Republican party or the right-wing branch of our citizenry give a damn about anything that's going on in Africa? This country has done nothing in the face of ACTUAL genocides (in Sudan and Rwanda), but now suddenly politicians and biased pundits care about some vague (i.e. non-existent) connection between a presidential candidate and a Kenyan politician?

If you can't see this for the smear campaign it is, then frankly, you are a moron. And by the way, I've got this helicopter ejector seat I'd like to sell you...
 

GCM

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If I was gonna vote, it'd be Obama. Why? Plenty of reasons. I don't need to list it out again, but just one: the other choice is McCain.

I don't like what Republicans made of the lipstick on a pig issue, either. Sure, let's ignore the fact that no one with half a working brain would actually think about saying that on national television. And the sad part is, people are actually bought this crap. You cheeseburger-inhaling Yanks.

And of course, neither Hilary nor Ron Paul got in. Damn you, Hasbro!

EDIT: Oh yes, that's right. He has no experience. His plans are good, but he "has no experience". Yeah, so let's vote for McCain instead. Because being a POW DEFINITELY helps you in being president.
 

Bronzebow

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Aug 21, 2008
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I'm not going to be voting for Obama/Biden ticket for several reasons. Indeed, they are the lesser evil compared to McCain/Palin, but that in and of itself is not reason to vote for him, nor is it because he's "not Republican" for people voting like they're supporting a sports team, nor does it mean Obama/Biden are not themselves evil.

I will not vote for Obama/Biden mostly revolving around his support for PATRIOT, FISA + retroactive immunity. Sure, he hemmed and hawwed and vowed to make a better bill later in either case, but that means diddly squat to me in the political world, and I've yet to see him follow that promise. Biden himself tried to claim credit for PATRIOT and went so far as to say it *didn't go far enough*! For two people who taught constitutional law to support and go as far as want to ENHANCE such a breach of civil rights... I also remember Obama promising to filibuster any attempt on retroactive immunity, but that took a complete 180 when it actually hit the vote. That's not even going into Biden's RIAA-bought self, especially now that we have an IP tech czar.

At least with McCain/Palin, they state their position and stick to it. Obama/Biden play dirty word games. That sort of complicates things when you realize we'd have a democratically controlled legislative branch and a democrat president. That is just way too much leeway for democrats to get their power grabs.

I also strongly dislike the socialistic programs he suggests including health care. With so many government subsidies keeping bad auto makers, banks, insurance and oil companies propped up, is it really such a surprise that these areas are so out of whack? If you think health care is expensive now, wait till it's "free." The solution to these situations is to get the dirty grubby hands of the government out of these systems and let the market control them naturally. And for anyone trying to claim I don't support old people (or some such other ridiculous argument for not supporting government funded health care):

"We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain."
-Frederic Bastiat

Neither Obama nor McCain deserve this seat. Go third party.
 

Godheval

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Bronzebow post=18.73968.817528 said:
At least with McCain/Palin, they state their position and stick to it. Obama/Biden play dirty word games.
I have not investigated your claims about Obama or Biden's double-talk, and honestly, I'm not inclined to doubt it. I know that Obama shifts his public positions for political reasons, as he did with FISA and in supporting the 2nd Amendment ruling passed by the Supreme Court. However, I see this in the same light as I saw Bill Clinton taking money from special interests while running, only to laugh and give them many of those lobbyists the finger after he was in office. I think that's hilarious. Obama has been moving towards the center on some issues, at the same time McCain is accusing him of having the most liberal voting record. All politicians lie and manipulate the facts.

To say that McCain/Palin say something and stick to it is plainly false. McCain was once - as of 2000 - pro-choice, and now says he'd overturn RVW. He was once a political moderate in general - indeed a "maverick" - but that changed once he realized he wasn't left enough for the Democrats, or right enough for the Republican base. I'm sure there were other factors, too, but the point is that neither politician "sticks" to what they say in all cases.

I think Obama understands the system better than someone like Dennis Kucinich - who was my original choice in the primaries - and is willing to "play the game", even if it means making apparent compromises in his positions. I will vote for Obama for a number of reasons, some having to do with his positions, others more philosophical, and finally because no third party candidate has a chance and I don't want to waste my vote or encourage others to do the same.

I would be interested in a viable third party candidate, but before that can happen, we will have to see a ground-zero renovation of the entire party system. Perhaps something resembling anti-trust legislation against political parties? Who knows...

I can tell you that if/when Obama wins, I will be examining everything he does with a fine-toothed comb, and I will be ready to call him on anything I perceive to be bullshit. Not that he'll personally hear me, of course, but I hope that kind of scrutiny is something that all Americans will use on whoever the President ends up being...
 

Serge Drago

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On Odinga - I say he is Obama's best friend because during his, Obama's, August 2006 trip to Kenya the two were attached to the hip and shadowed each other where ever they went and vice versa when Odinga came state side during 2004,2005, and 2006. Odinga was involved in the violent coup of 1982. And Godheval, the Kenyan Genocide is the 2008 New Years Day Atrocity in Eldoret.
http://kenyanemergency.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/eyewitnesses-describe-situation-in-eldoret-and-kibera/
http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/oct/12/obamas-kenya-ghosts/
 

Joeshie

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If you don't vote for Obama because you disagree with him on issues, then that's perfectly fine and acceptable.

If you don't vote for Obama because you believe any of the long list of lies that have been spread out by the extreme right-wing party, then you are an idiot.

I'm voting for Obama because I feel that he actually is intelligent and I agree with him on several key issues. Also, McCain is a proven idiot. I'd rather vote for an unproven idiot than a proven idiot any day of the week.
 

Godheval

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I swear this is going to be the last post I make in this thread (I hope. Maybe.)

To anyone so afraid of "socialism" and "powerful government", there is something really simple that you have to keep in mind. Where the government looses the reigns, the corporations run wild.

Trading one form of control for another does not work, especially given that corporations are NOT accountable to the citizens whose lives they affect.

I'd be all for smaller government and free market if the PEOPLE had some say in what the corporations did. For example, make it mandatory that a Walmart setting up shop in a small neighborhood have a sizeable number of representatives from their neighborhood on their board of directors. Or provide all businesses projected to be impacted with a certain number of shares in Walmart to offset their losses and to give them a say.

Oh, but wait...who would make Walmart do that? Who would enforce it? Riiiight, the government (which again is ultimately accountable to the PEOPLE). Politicians and CEOs both tend to be scumbags, but at least we the people can fire a politician.
 

Alex_P

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Bronzebow post=18.73968.817528 said:
At least with McCain/Palin, they state their position and stick to it.
Palin changes positions mid-sentence.

"We need more regulation! (Yay!) We need free markets! (Yay!)"

Hilariously enough, her most stable claims are the ones that have already been relentlessly disproven.

-- Alex
 

Bronzebow

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Godheval post=18.73968.817604 said:
To anyone so afraid of "socialism" and "powerful government", there is something really simple that you have to keep in mind. Where the government looses the reigns, the corporations run wild.

.....

I'd be all for smaller government and free market if the PEOPLE had some say in what the corporations did. For example, make it mandatory that a Walmart setting up shop in a small neighborhood have a sizeable number of representatives from their neighborhood on their board of directors. Or provide all businesses projected to be impacted with a certain number of shares in Walmart to offset their losses and to give them a say.

Oh, but wait...who would make Walmart do that? Who would enforce it? Riiiight, the government (which again is ultimately accountable to the PEOPLE). Politicians and CEOs both tend to be scumbags, but at least we the people can fire a politician.
I disagree very strongly with this statement. Right now we are seeing the very effects of having a strong federal government. Lobbying from corporations is the very problem we're seeing. Having a weaker federal government is absolutely not a free reign for corporations to go willy nilly.

Case in point: If we had a weaker fed, the lawsuits against the telecoms that spied on us illegally would not have been pushed out.

People WOULD have a say in what corporations did through their checkbook. Company screws up? You don't go there anymore. They tank. Once again, we see the exact opposite of this with the federal reserve pumping fake credit into our system like a drunken frat dude and completely overturning the natural happenstance that some banks/auto makers/people not taking responsibility with their money (we're talking million dollar loans for people who can't afford it) would be washed.

In your situation, who would enforce this walmart-forced-local, which in and of itself really isn't all that free market? It would be the local community and state, who should by design have more power than the federal government. That way, such a law would only negatively affect the area where it is enforced, not the whole country.

Once again, case in point: No child left behind.


edit: I should have been more thorough when I said McCain/Pain stuck to their word. They didn't, I was incorrect in stating such. They're both pretty solidly entrenched in the wedge issues that should not be a matter of presidential debate to begin with, but McCain does tend to be more vote-as-you-say, where Obama doesn't really like to be...shall we say, pinned down by silly words? Neither one is trustworthy.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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1. He has Charisma
2. As a Canadian I can say that he seems to represent the best aspects of what America is "supposed to be" at least, what it's supposed to be according to all the Pop-Culture that you guys send up here.
3. He doesn't have Palin as his running mate, she scares me.
 

Godheval

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Serge Drago post=18.73968.817595 said:
On Odinga - I say he is Obama's best friend because during his, Obama's, August 2006 trip to Kenya the two were attached to the hip and shadowed each other where ever they went and vice versa when Odinga came state side during 2004,2005, and 2006.
Um...Odinga is a leading politician. Of course they'd meet and be in eachother's company. Obama also met with Kibaki.

Odinga was involved in the violent coup of 1982. And Godheval, the Kenyan Genocide is the 2008 New Years Day Atrocity in Eldoret.
http://kenyanemergency.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/eyewitnesses-describe-situation-in-eldoret-and-kibera/
http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/oct/12/obamas-kenya-ghosts/
The situation in Eldoret was not a genocide. It's the result of ongoing tribal warfare between Kikuyus and Luos. And both Raila Odinga (Luo) and President Mwai Kibaki (Kikuyu) have been at worst complicit and at best impotent in the violence.

And seriously, you're going to use some random wordpress blog and the Washington Times (!!!!!) as your sources? You do know that the Wash Times is owned by Reverend and total crackpot Sun Myung Moon, right? Have you ever been approached by a Moonie? You can pretty much BET that anything they say or publish has a secondary agenda. Why don't you cite Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter while you're at it, because you know, they're "fair and balanced".

You also might want to look into history if you're going to start talking about Kenya. The 1982 coup in which Raila Odinga was against a President who was well-documented and internationally-maligned as corrupt. The politics and tribal in-fighting of Kenya is immensely complex, more than either of us could represent here in a thread which is supposed to be about Barack Obama.

What's the 1982 coup - which you clearly know nothing about - have to do with him? Oh, nothing? Right.

Give it up. You have no case at all.
 

Godheval

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Bronzebow post=18.73968.817638 said:
I disagree very strongly with this statement. Right now we are seeing the very effects of having a strong federal government. Lobbying from corporations is the very problem we're seeing. Having a weaker federal government is absolutely not a free reign for corporations to go willy nilly.

Case in point: If we had a weaker fed, the lawsuits against the telecoms that spied on us illegally would not have been pushed out.



People WOULD have a say in what corporations did through their checkbook. Company screws up? You don't go there anymore. They tank.

In your situation, who would enforce this walmart-forced-local, which in and of itself really isn't all that free market? It would be the local community and state, who should by design have more power than the federal government. That way, such a law would only negatively affect the area where it is enforced, not the whole country.

Once again, case in point: No child left behind.
I think you and I agree on a lot of things. You don't trust the government. I don't trust corporations. You'd have government streamlined. I'd have corporations abolished altogether, heh. I do not know what a smaller fed would look like today, and you really can't say that you do, either.

While it is true that much of the government is operating at the behest of the corporations, that is something that can be fixed with legislation. There is nothing we can do without government to hold corporations in check. You say we can simply stop going there, but a boycott of a business - especially one as large as these multinational corporations - would have to occur on an incredible scale. Millions of people would have to all come out and act on it. When do millions of people come together to do anything in this country? Oh yeah, when they VOTE. But that's about it.

Most people are ignorant. As long as these corporations are providing them with the goods and services they need (and many they don't), they'll continue to ignore disgraceful practices.

A smoker can be convinced that anti-smoking campaigns are a scheme by "Big Pharma" to sell more gum. Some small business owners crippled by Wal-Mart probably even SHOP at Wal-Mart. A vein of pure consumerist idiocy runs through the American public.

Now while a massive national boycott is completely unlikely, voting a politician out of office is much more feasible - and does happen at least once every election cycle. When has a corporation EVER gone out of business due to the mass opposition of customers to its business practices? Probably never.

As for reducing the fed and giving more power to the state and local governments, I'm skeptical of that, because I feel that people in certain areas NEED the grounding of a more national moral compass. Even if I lived in a state where things were proceeding as I liked, I would not want to hear about injustice going on in the neighboring state.

Following your argument to its inevitable conclusion, we'll end up with 50 separate countries, some of which would be bastions for racism, social injustice, and religious zealotry. If I felt I could trust the average citizen in the Bible Belt or in degenerate pockets of the midwest to do the right thing, then I'd trust them to have more power on a local level. But as it stands now, there are just too many morons in this country, and they need a centralized hand to rule them, lest they choke themselves with their own stupidity.

Side Note: NCLB = bullshit

Edit: Oh, and please elaborate on your point about how a smaller Fed and the telecom companies. I'm not certain what you're referring to, or how the outcome would've been different.
 

Serge Drago

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Give it up. You have no case at all.
You're right this thread is about Obama. If you want to leave his connections with people that lock others into a church and set fire to it out of the equation than be my guest. The fact still remains that Obama has a few, less than commendable people surrounding him. But to say I have no case at all against this Marxist is idiotic. Obama wants to raise taxes on the very people that make jobs in this country. When the cost of business goes up the owners decide to cut their costs and the people in their employ are just another business expense on the balance sheet. Obama's policies, if accepted by a potentially liberal congress, will cost jobs across the board.
 

yzzlthtz

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Obama was a constitutional professor.
His economic policies work in favor of the majority of Americans.
He speaks with great intelligence and clarity and has the ability to take in all of the information about an issue, weigh the arguments, and come to a fair and logical conclusion that isn't just a regurgitation of party policy.
He wants to defend this country, and he wants to do it intelligently and without deception of the American people.
He has an energy policy that will not only reduce our demand for oil far more than any drilling will, but will create thousands of jobs and provide America with lucrative technology that we can sell to other industrialized countries - the other option is to sit back until other countries do the work then be indebted to them even more when we are forced to adopt said technologies in the coming decades.
He wants to cut taxes for 95% of Americans and fix the taxation loophole problem that the rich keep jumping through.
He is compassionate, intelligent, and he believes in America.
This is all fine, but more compelling to me is the horridness that is the Republican party.
Republicans win elections by saying that they'll ban abortion, kill terrorists, and keep the government "small". Killing terrorists seems to amount to sloppily rampaging a couple area of the middle east looking to secure oil prospects the majority of the time and then torturing all suspects, effectively pooping all over habeas corpus, whether the suspects are guilty or not.
The abortion issue is to win all of the Christian Right votes. They just stand against things - abortion, gay marriage. These are choices people will make, whether or not the government "allows" it. These Christian Righters really seem to want to live in a social totalitarianism, which the Republican party seems all to happy to provide them with.


But of course this is fine because of "Small Government", which amounts to deregulation of business and industry, which results in the raping of our planet, the outsourcing of American Jobs, poison in our air and water, and many tax loopholes.
McCain wants to solve the energy crisis and global warming by building 25 nuclear power plants. Which is like letting the smoke out of your kitchen so that you can properly assemble a neutron bomb in your refrigerator.

Nuclear technologies are dangerous, not just because a plant meltdown will make a tri-county area uninhabitable, but because nuclear waste is easily refined to make nuclear weapons. 1 nuclear plant = 1 more security threat. 25 nuclear plants....

And plus, who is going to want a nuclear plant in their state? Nobody, that's who. Not for years now. It's a failed policy already, and yet McCain touts it like it's the most ingenious idea since the bread cutter.

And the free market! Small government! Yes! No Health Care reform! Let the almighty dollar determine progress and our well-being and the quality of our food and industry! woo-hoo! We don't live in a socialist country, we're consumers, we do what we want! We didn't just spend $700 billion dollars of middle-class money to prevent absolute economic disaster!

It's a farce. The idea that Democracy is somehow essentially tied up in Capitalism. The idea that a free Market and more money for the upper class will somehow result in great prosperity for the poor and middle class. It is merely a way of keeping money concentrated at the top and maintaining money as the primary object of power.

money money money....let's see...someone said something about money....
who was it?
Hitler? no no....Rush Limbaugh? no no no....
oh yeah! it was Jesus!
Root of all evil? no couldn't be. That would mean that the United States has become...

So go ahead, vote Republican. Keep the Government small! Our morals and activities really need to be monitored! Yeah, social fascism and a free market!

I probably haven't changed your mind.

But, seriously, you vote McCain, that is one big vote for the turd sandwich.
I personally don't know how you could live with yourself afterward.
 

Fruhstuck

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America's market has always been free and it has worked and has always been a strong economy, i like it, i think it's an awesome concept and want to come over there and experience some of the fun lol, but now it's not doing so good (700bn bail outs and such) so maybe a little socialism would be a good thing, government taking to control to sort out the kinks kinda thing
 

Fruhstuck

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The only good thing about Obama that i have clocked, i don't pay much attention - i'm a brit lol
Is that he's always willing to admit his flaws, which is nice lol
 

yzzlthtz

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sneakypenguin post=18.73968.816675 said:
Imitation Saccharin post=18.73968.816645 said:
54r93 post=18.73968.816524 said:
also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.
As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.
Because we love freedom over equality.
What freedom? Capitalism has nothing to do with freedom. Not personal freedom, anyways. You are living in a caked glossy opium dream world if you really believe those words.
The equality you speak of has to do with survival and well being, not personal freedoms.
Republicans are happy to regulate our personal freedoms - anti abortion, anti gay marriage, incarceration without due evidence, the war on drugs (which is just another business and does nothing to address the actual problem). The market governs our health care. Our ability to buy homes. The Capitalist market allows for the outsourcing of thousands of jobs to foreign soil. The pollution of our air and our water. Now, all fish are poisonous to eat. You feed enough fish to your kid, and they'll develop led poisoning.

A free market with a social totalitarianism, that's what Capitalist freedom amounts to in the Republican party.

What the fuck kind of horrible freedom is that?
American Freedom, I guess.