'Why Does Link have to be Female?'

[Gamerpalooza]

What's the fixation with wanting a female Link to begin with anyway?

If you want female leads then support games that bring them to the forefront.

Yet when you have a game like Bayonetta what does the media do? Well it shuts down all the potential for that to happen.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I also find having a raised arm with a gun always in my face tiring and unrealistic.

Didn't you just have a thread where you wanted omnidirectional sprinting, regardless of how unrealistic it was?

 

[happyninja42]

What's the fixation with wanting a female Link to begin with anyway?

Because not everyone wants to play a male protagonist. Namely a large number of female gamers would like to have female protagonists that they could enjoy playing as, for the self-insert quality. It's why I personally prefer games with a male protagonist, because it's easier for me to insert myself into the role when I share the gender of the person I'm playing. Plenty of women and girls are the same way. My 3 god daughters all, if given a choice of characters to play as, (in games like Hyrule Warriors for example), pick a female character, because they enjoy them more.

If you want female leads then support games that bring them to the forefront.

Great idea! ....how many of those are they actually putting out? Not many, and that's part of the problem, especially with Nintendo. They're so petrified to try new IP's, they've been rehashing the same 3 IP's for 30 damn years. So fans of Nintendo (and LoZ in particular), are expressing a desire for them to show some variety. Basically "If you're never going to make a Hyrule game with a female protagonist, because you have decided that the Hero of Hyrule is always Link, then we want a female Link sometimes."

Yet when you have a game like Bayonetta what does the media do? Well it shuts down all the potential for that to happen.

....how did the media shut down the potential for that to happen? We have 2 Bayonetta games. That is the opposite of shutting down the potential for that to happen.

 

[DefunctTheory]

What's the fixation with wanting a female Link to begin with anyway?

It's the natural test ground for the gender flip/increased female representation argument, because Link lives is a very rare spot. Making Gordon Freeman, or Master Chef, or Mario change genders does have some... unfortunate implications. Namely, how do you explain that shit.

Link doesn't have that problem, because while Link has been fairly consistent in appearance over the years, the lore of the game is pretty clear that it doesn't have to be so. Link could be a girl, or technocolored, or a midget. The only limiter, it appears, is that he has to be Hylian.

Honestly, I don't think there's a huge population of people demanding this happen because the Zelda games are special or popular or whatnot. It's just a case of Link being the most easily, least jarring popular video game hero that could make the switch.

 

[happyninja42]

It's the natural test ground for the gender flip/increased female representation argument, because Link lives is a very rare spot. Making Gordon Freeman, or Master Chef, or Mario change genders does have some... unfortunate implications. Namely, how do you explain that shit.

Question. Are you stating this in the context of a character who in-universe has a gender flip? Or just the meta representation of the character? Because in-universe, it's super easy:

Gordon Freeman: Crazy genetic experimentation by the aliens (who already have biotechnology to turn people into crabhead zombies. No reason they couldn't bio-engineer a vagina where a penis is.

Master Chief: Never played these games, but he's already the subject of radical biochemical alteration with the Spartan program, again, no reason he couldn't get a plumbing change. Perhaps he get's royally fucked up like Shepherd does at the start of ME 2, and they have to totally rebuild him, and it's easier for them to rebuild him as female because reasons.

Mario: Super easy, he eats a mushroom/flower and turns into a woman. He's turned into racoons, fire breathing dude, a tanooki (whatever the fuck that is), and any number of bizarre creatures that we totally accept as valid. Why not have a plant that he chomps down on that changes his plumbing (haha! Plumber reference!)

If you mean in the meta-representation, as in a reboot of the franchise with a gender swap, then they don't have to explain it at all. In that scenario, Gordon, Master and Mario have always been female, case closed.

Honestly, I don't think there's a huge population of people demanding this happen because the Zelda games are special or popular or whatnot.

I dunno, the game franchise has been around long enough for several generations of kids to have grown up playing them, and have them be an integral part of their personal culture. The mother of my god daughters is a huge Zelda fan, and she'd love to have a female Link to play, and I know her girls would too. Or at the very least let Zelda actually have center stage in her own damn game line. So I think there is a significant population that want to see this, but I do think it's mostly because, they think like I do (and I could be wrong here), that they're never going to get a spinoff game, because Nintendo is too scared to try that as a business, so they HAVE to play as Link, if they want to enjoy the fun of the world of Hyrule. So if they are forced to play Link, they'd like a female Link at some point. Or at least the option for one at the start, to be able to pick a male/female link.


Though that does remind me, I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night. How much of this hesitation to make a femLink is possibly due to the gender social structures in Japanese culture? I know only vague bits of how it works, but is it possible that a lot of it is just simply due to their culture frowning on representations of women in power? In roles as anything other than a support role/love interest?

It's just a case of Link being the most easily, least jarring popular video game hero that could make the switch.

Given how much blowback they've been getting on this subject, I wouldn't agree that he's the least jarring. He seems to be equally jarring as any other male protagonist they are suggesting changing.

 

[DefunctTheory]

It's the natural test ground for the gender flip/increased female representation argument, because Link lives is a very rare spot. Making Gordon Freeman, or Master Chef, or Mario change genders does have some... unfortunate implications. Namely, how do you explain that shit.

Question. Are you stating this in the context of a character who in-universe has a gender flip? Or just the meta representation of the character?

In universe, and you know damn well all of those 'suggestions' are pants-on-head retarded. As opposed to Link getting flipped, which isn't even a 'proper' gender flip, it's just a gender role reversal with different characters.

Honestly, I don't think there's a huge population of people demanding this happen because the Zelda games are special or popular or whatnot.

I dunno, the game franchise has been around long enough for several generations of kids to have grown up playing them, and have them be an integral part of their personal culture. The mother of my god daughters is a huge Zelda fan, and she'd love to have a female Link to play, and I know her girls would too. Or at the very least let Zelda actually have center stage in her own damn game line. So I think there is a significant population that want to see this, but I do think it's mostly because, they think like I do (and I could be wrong here), that they're never going to get a spinoff game, because Nintendo is too scared to try that as a business, so they HAVE to play as Link, if they want to enjoy the fun of the world of Hyrule. So if they are forced to play Link, they'd like a female Link at some point. Or at least the option for one at the start, to be able to pick a male/female link.

If you say so, I guess.

Though that does remind me, I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night. How much of this hesitation to make a femLink is possibly due to the gender social structures in Japanese culture? I know only vague bits of how it works, but is it possible that a lot of it is just simply due to their culture frowning on representations of women in power? In roles as anything other than a support role/love interest?

Seeing as I get my throat kicked in every time I try to talk about an Asian culture, I'll leave the speculation to you. I'm already in a nasty fight at the moment and don't need seconds.

It's just a case of Link being the most easily, least jarring popular video game hero that could make the switch.

Given how much blowback they've been getting on this subject, I wouldn't agree that he's the least jarring. He seems to be equally jarring as any other male protagonist they are suggesting changing.

I was referring to the least jarring narrative, not to the best fan received possibility. All your examples are eye rollingly stupid, not because of the gender change, but just because those are all things people would rightfully call an ass pull if they were really put into place. Just really stupid. Where as you don't really need to change anything to make Link female - There's a dozen Links already, and there's no lore reason for all of them to be male. Particularly since most Links don't get it on with Zelda (Only the 'first' (NES) Link is implied to become King, as I recall), so there isn't even a 'must be descended from both Zelda and old Link' requirement.

Tl;dr - Most characters, if gender flipped, end up eliciting the question 'But why do it?' When it comes to Link, the question becomes 'Why not?' And as far as I can tell, no one's come up with a reason, besides 'Muh Links.'

Where as I think most people could very rightfully claim that 'Aliens dun gave'em a vajay jay' is a very dumb narrative answer.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yet when you have a game like Bayonetta what does the media do? Well it shuts down all the potential for that to happen.

Yeeeeeah...it wasn't the lack of sales, it was the lack of media approval that really "prevented" fetish fuel from happening.

Given how much blowback they've been getting on this subject, I wouldn't agree that he's the least jarring. He seems to be equally jarring as any other male protagonist they are suggesting changing.

Honestly, as "salty" as the reaction has been over a girl Link, it seems relatively civil by contemporary standards.

 

[Yoshi178]

I also find having a raised arm with a gun always in my face tiring and unrealistic.

so basically you don't like FPS games period.

The genre's overrated and severely overdone. But no, I don't dislike it entirely. There are some standouts.

make up your mind.

you either don't like having a raised arm with a gun always in your face or you do like it.

 

[Samechiel]

Isn't the reason Link is always a boy is because he's the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia's Chosen Hero?

 

[CritialGaming]

I don't think LINK should EVER be female. Ever! EVER EVER EVER! Link in a male character and shouldn't be gender-bended just for people's weird equality demands.

However....why not a Zelda game in which you, I dunno, play ZELDA! How about Link be the ***** in distress for a change? Let Princess Zelda get off her ass and go save the kingdom she is supposed to serve. Fucking lazy stooge, constantly placing the fate of Hyrule in the hands of a kid. We know Zelda can fight.

There is literally no reason to make Link a female, when there already is a perfectly badass female in the mythos we have yet to explore.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Isn't the reason Link is always a boy is because he's the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia's Chosen Hero?

Exactly how the hero mantle is passed on isn't nailed down in the games. Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

The real reason is, of course, that the Zelda timeline was thought up years after the SNES game, and that the entire thing is is looser then a mother in a mom joke. And even if it was accurate and without more holes then the Bismarck, neither the direct descendant theory, the reincarnation theory, or the 'Goddesses are just being tricksy' theory preclude Link from being female.

 

[CritialGaming]

Isn't the reason Link is always a boy is because he's the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia's Chosen Hero?

Exactly how the hero mantle is passed on isn't nailed down in the games. Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

The real reason is, of course, that the Zelda timeline was thought up years after the SNES game, and that the entire thing is is looser then a mother in a mom joke. And even if it was accurate and without more holes then the Bismarck, neither the direct descendant theory, the reincarnation theory, or the 'Goddesses are just being tricksy' theory preclude Link from being female.

Zelda's lore is a twisted mess anyway, I think arguments on Link's sexual organs based on Lore are a waste of time because that lore can be bent to do whatever you wanted and has more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

 

[Orga777]

What's the fixation with wanting a female Link to begin with anyway?

If you want female leads then support games that bring them to the forefront.

Yet when you have a game like Bayonetta what does the media do? Well it shuts down all the potential for that to happen.

Eh. It isn't that hard to explain why they want it... Because Link isn't a character with actual characterization. He is at best an avatar for the player. It would change effectively zero on the game. Link never talks or does anything. Characters react around him and that is all. Now that isn't the only thing in this case, either. Unlike other silent protagonists like say, Gordon Freeman or Chell etc., it is never the same Link in any of the games with the exception of direct sequels like Majora's Mask or what ever. So it REALLY doesn't matter in the long run of the series. It is just the easiest game series to change the gender without actually causing a fuss over anything. Just because of how convoluted the series works with its game world.

Personally, though, I think it is misguided to want a gender-swapped Link. Cause doing that doesn't really change the game in any way except to appear progressive. They have a completely good female character like Zelda who would easily be able to carry her own game in the series, and having Princess Zelda playable would change the entire scope of the game from gameplay to interactions. She doesn't fight like Link at all, so it would allow the game devs to get more creative with level design, game play style, and tone. All of which would be more interesting than just having a gender-bent Link. So it is very depressing to hear Miyamoto pretty much obliterate any hope that Zelda will ever carry the main player role in a main entry in the series.

 

[Lightknight]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay. The biggest problem is they don't understand that they can just say that. Instead they talk through PR speak which ends up being so much more offensive.

 

[Orga777]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay.

That is correct. However, it would be better if they just say that. Their laughable and inane excuses make them look incompetent and uncreative at best.

 

[Samechiel]

Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

Meeting a previous incarnation doesn't shoot down anything. In fact, it could be argued to reinforce the theory; how else is one Link going to learn moves from a previous Link? As for Wind Waker, I don't believe direct descendancy has ever been a prerequisite for reincarnation. A common trope, perhaps, but not required.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

Meeting a previous incarnation doesn't shoot down anything. In fact, it could be argued to reinforce the theory; how else is one Link going to learn moves from a previous Link? As for Wind Waker, I don't believe direct descendancy has ever been a prerequisite for reincarnation. A common trope, perhaps, but not required.

I was running through all the theories, one of which is being direct descendants.

And meeting the soul of a previous Link does kind of shoot down reincarnation, as it's explicitly a separate entity from the Link you're controlling, not some past memory.

 

[Lightknight]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay.

That is correct. However, it would be better if they just say that. Their laughable and inane excuses make them look incompetent and uncreative at best.

Hah, this is the ninja edit I made to my post while you must have been making this one: "The biggest problem is they don't understand that they can just say that. Instead they talk through PR speak which ends up being so much more offensive."

So I agree. PR speech to defend creative vision is needlessly obtuse.

"We made Link male. That's what he's always been and how we wish to keep him" is so much better than all the things they said instead.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

Because not everyone wants to play a male protagonist. Namely a large number of female gamers would like to have female protagonists that they could enjoy playing as, for the self-insert quality. It's why I personally prefer games with a male protagonist, because it's easier for me to insert myself into the role when I share the gender of the person I'm playing. Plenty of women and girls are the same way. My 3 god daughters all, if given a choice of characters to play as, (in games like Hyrule Warriors for example), pick a female character, because they enjoy them more.

I'm a male I've played many games that have female leads as well as games that give multiple character options that include both sexes. We already have a lot of diversity in this department.

The many male protag games I play I don't play them because of some self-insert fantasy either because having a male protag doesn't mean anything to me personally. Yet if that's what the franchise went with then it has to be respected.

I don't go whining "why isn't alice in wonderland a male" and demand the change. It's not productive in any way shape or form.

Great idea! ....how many of those are they actually putting out? Not many, and that's part of the problem, especially with Nintendo. They're so petrified to try new IP's, they've been rehashing the same 3 IP's for 30 damn years. So fans of Nintendo (and LoZ in particular), are expressing a desire for them to show some variety. Basically "If you're never going to make a Hyrule game with a female protagonist, because you have decided that the Hero of Hyrule is always Link, then we want a female Link sometimes."

Many. Bayonetta isn't the only IP if anything the only platform neglecting female leads is Microsoft yet that's mainly because their entire focus is sports, cars, fps. Even though they are getting their games to expand and allow for both sexes.

If we go with Female only leads sure it may not be massive but there's many games. Alice in wonderland, Beyond Good & Evil (?), Bloodrayne, Clock Tower, Fatal Frame, Cooking Mama, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Shantae, Super Princess Peach, Neptunia games‎, etc. Neglecting many games that I don't believe will interest either gender as gamers like barbie and bratz. As well as games that wont be productive to this discussion like DoA Beach volleyball. Since there's many more games to mention but...I can't remember them all.

There's also games I'd like to bring up such as Ar Tonelico and Valkyrie Profile.

If we go with both sexes then there's bigger options because that's been the case with many games for decades now. Many of the Mario games as well as the rpg counterparts allowed for, Pokemon games, Diablo, DMC, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, etc.

So no I don't believe there's a shortage and trying to strongarm many creative figures by demanding lead character be female will only make it worse not better.

....how did the media shut down the potential for that to happen? We have 2 Bayonetta games. That is the opposite of shutting down the potential for that to happen.

Because they nitpick and games like bayonetta that can lead to companies to be more open minded can't because companies realize that if they ever bother making a female protag game in this day and age they will have to deal with so much media blacklash. Since it isn't about having strong female leads it's about cherry picking a narrative to give legitimacy to something that doesn't exists.

Eh. It isn't that hard to explain why they want it... Because Link isn't a character with actual characterization. He is at best an avatar for the player. It would change effectively zero on the game. Link never talks or does anything. Characters react around him and that is all. Now that isn't the only thing in this case, either. Unlike other silent protagonists like say, Gordon Freeman or Chell etc., it is never the same Link in any of the games with the exception of direct sequels like Majora's Mask or what ever. So it REALLY doesn't matter in the long run of the series. It is just the easiest game series to change the gender without actually causing a fuss over anything. Just because of how convoluted the series works with its game world.

Sure link is a silent but those "reactions" to him especially when its story related makes sense a lot of the time for him to be male instead of female. So personally it does matter. Yes link is effeminate at a fault but that works well for its narrative.

Personally, though, I think it is misguided to want a gender-swapped Link. Cause doing that doesn't really change the game in any way except to appear progressive. They have a completely good female character like Zelda who would easily be able to carry her own game in the series, and having Princess Zelda playable would change the entire scope of the game from gameplay to interactions. She doesn't fight like Link at all, so it would allow the game devs to get more creative with level design, game play style, and tone. All of which would be more interesting than just having a gender-bent Link. So it is very depressing to hear Miyamoto pretty much obliterate any hope that Zelda will ever carry the main player role in a main entry in the series.

For the most part yes but he probably said that in retaliation. Since it isn't new in the industry the kind of pros and cons it brings to a company to "expand" that way. So he probably doesn't want to deal with such fixation since he looks to be more focused on the way he wants his creation to grow and expand. Especially when we see the 4 sword games. Personally I'm glad we even got to see a Hyrule Warriors franchise and get to play more than just two female characters such as Zelda and Shiek. Since I had that experience first with smash and the novelty wore off pretty quickly.

I say this because if he did make a female protagonist or create a Zelda game it would quickly escalate into a realm where people will never be satisfied because they would want their specific female in this franchise to get attention.

Since we have Zelda (And her many timeline forms), Tetra, Shiek, Lana, Cia, Great Fairy, Fi, Impa, Ruto, Agitha, Midna, True Form Midna, Marin, Medli, Sarah, the 3 Djinns, etc.

So I understand why he backed away. He already deals with a lot of conflicting reception with his own titles to bother dwelling into this kind of abyss.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

It's the natural test ground for the gender flip/increased female representation argument, because Link lives is a very rare spot. Making Gordon Freeman, or Master Chef, or Mario change genders does have some... unfortunate implications. Namely, how do you explain that shit.

Question. Are you stating this in the context of a character who in-universe has a gender flip? Or just the meta representation of the character?

In universe, and you know damn well all of those 'suggestions' are pants-on-head retarded. As opposed to Link getting flipped, which isn't even a 'proper' gender flip, it's just a gender role reversal with different characters.

Really? An italian plumber eats a flower, doubles his size, and is able to shoot fire out of his mouth, or turn into a racoon and fly are perfectly sound in universe things, but eating something and having a gender flip is "pants on head retarded"? And the other two have such levels of fanciful scifi in them that is perfectly fine (portals, alternate dimensions, biochemical hijacking of high-structure organisms), all that's fine, but again, gender swapping is a bridge too far?

Though that does remind me, I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night. How much of this hesitation to make a femLink is possibly due to the gender social structures in Japanese culture? I know only vague bits of how it works, but is it possible that a lot of it is just simply due to their culture frowning on representations of women in power? In roles as anything other than a support role/love interest?

Seeing as I get my throat kicked in every time I try to talk about an Asian culture, I'll leave the speculation to you. I'm already in a nasty fight at the moment and don't need seconds.

Apparently, given the level of open hostility that's bleeding through your responses to me so far, yeah you probably don't need anything further.

It's just a case of Link being the most easily, least jarring popular video game hero that could make the switch.

Given how much blowback they've been getting on this subject, I wouldn't agree that he's the least jarring. He seems to be equally jarring as any other male protagonist they are suggesting changing.

I was referring to the least jarring narrative, not to the best fan received possibility. All your examples are eye rollingly stupid, not because of the gender change, but just because those are all things people would rightfully call an ass pull if they were really put into place. Just really stupid. Where as you don't really need to change anything to make Link female - There's a dozen Links already, and there's no lore reason for all of them to be male. Particularly since most Links don't get it on with Zelda (Only the 'first' (NES) Link is implied to become King, as I recall), so there isn't even a 'must be descended from both Zelda and old Link' requirement.

Tl;dr - Most characters, if gender flipped, end up eliciting the question 'But why do it?' When it comes to Link, the question becomes 'Why not?' And as far as I can tell, no one's come up with a reason, besides 'Muh Links.'

Where as I think most people could very rightfully claim that 'Aliens dun gave'em a vajay jay' is a very dumb narrative answer.

Wow, I simply respond to your posts, and you toss that much aggression at me. Eye rollingly stupid. Yeah, fuck you pal. Point your apparent frustration at that other conversation where it should be. Don't spray it around for others to get hit by.

I honestly meant no offense.

Guess there's nothing left to do but for me to apologize and go on my way. So... I am sorry.