'Why Does Link have to be Female?'

[CritialGaming]

I don't think LINK should EVER be female. Ever! EVER EVER EVER! Link in a male character and shouldn't be gender-bended just for people's weird equality demands.

However....why not a Zelda game in which you, I dunno, play ZELDA! How about Link be the ***** in distress for a change? Let Princess Zelda get off her ass and go save the kingdom she is supposed to serve. Fucking lazy stooge, constantly placing the fate of Hyrule in the hands of a kid. We know Zelda can fight.

There is literally no reason to make Link a female, when there already is a perfectly badass female in the mythos we have yet to explore.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Isn't the reason Link is always a boy is because he's the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia's Chosen Hero?

Exactly how the hero mantle is passed on isn't nailed down in the games. Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

The real reason is, of course, that the Zelda timeline was thought up years after the SNES game, and that the entire thing is is looser then a mother in a mom joke. And even if it was accurate and without more holes then the Bismarck, neither the direct descendant theory, the reincarnation theory, or the 'Goddesses are just being tricksy' theory preclude Link from being female.

 

[CritialGaming]

Isn't the reason Link is always a boy is because he's the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia's Chosen Hero?

Exactly how the hero mantle is passed on isn't nailed down in the games. Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

The real reason is, of course, that the Zelda timeline was thought up years after the SNES game, and that the entire thing is is looser then a mother in a mom joke. And even if it was accurate and without more holes then the Bismarck, neither the direct descendant theory, the reincarnation theory, or the 'Goddesses are just being tricksy' theory preclude Link from being female.

Zelda's lore is a twisted mess anyway, I think arguments on Link's sexual organs based on Lore are a waste of time because that lore can be bent to do whatever you wanted and has more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

 

[Orga777]

What's the fixation with wanting a female Link to begin with anyway?

If you want female leads then support games that bring them to the forefront.

Yet when you have a game like Bayonetta what does the media do? Well it shuts down all the potential for that to happen.

Eh. It isn't that hard to explain why they want it... Because Link isn't a character with actual characterization. He is at best an avatar for the player. It would change effectively zero on the game. Link never talks or does anything. Characters react around him and that is all. Now that isn't the only thing in this case, either. Unlike other silent protagonists like say, Gordon Freeman or Chell etc., it is never the same Link in any of the games with the exception of direct sequels like Majora's Mask or what ever. So it REALLY doesn't matter in the long run of the series. It is just the easiest game series to change the gender without actually causing a fuss over anything. Just because of how convoluted the series works with its game world.

Personally, though, I think it is misguided to want a gender-swapped Link. Cause doing that doesn't really change the game in any way except to appear progressive. They have a completely good female character like Zelda who would easily be able to carry her own game in the series, and having Princess Zelda playable would change the entire scope of the game from gameplay to interactions. She doesn't fight like Link at all, so it would allow the game devs to get more creative with level design, game play style, and tone. All of which would be more interesting than just having a gender-bent Link. So it is very depressing to hear Miyamoto pretty much obliterate any hope that Zelda will ever carry the main player role in a main entry in the series.

 

[Lightknight]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay. The biggest problem is they don't understand that they can just say that. Instead they talk through PR speak which ends up being so much more offensive.

 

[Orga777]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay.

That is correct. However, it would be better if they just say that. Their laughable and inane excuses make them look incompetent and uncreative at best.

 

[Samechiel]

Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

Meeting a previous incarnation doesn't shoot down anything. In fact, it could be argued to reinforce the theory; how else is one Link going to learn moves from a previous Link? As for Wind Waker, I don't believe direct descendancy has ever been a prerequisite for reincarnation. A common trope, perhaps, but not required.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Twilight Princess kind of shoots down the reincarnation theory, as you meet a previous Link (The skeleton that teaches you moves), while the descendant theory is shot down by Wind Waker, where direct relation to the previous hero (The Hero of Time) is impossible.

Meeting a previous incarnation doesn't shoot down anything. In fact, it could be argued to reinforce the theory; how else is one Link going to learn moves from a previous Link? As for Wind Waker, I don't believe direct descendancy has ever been a prerequisite for reincarnation. A common trope, perhaps, but not required.

I was running through all the theories, one of which is being direct descendants.

And meeting the soul of a previous Link does kind of shoot down reincarnation, as it's explicitly a separate entity from the Link you're controlling, not some past memory.

 

[Lightknight]

Nothing has to be any gender. But Link was made male and the artists/creators view him as male.

They give washy explanations as to why (Like that they'd far rather make Zelda the playable character instead but they don't know what Link would be doing then instead...), but it ultimately comes down to that.

It's not unethical or wrong. It's just what they want and that's okay.

That is correct. However, it would be better if they just say that. Their laughable and inane excuses make them look incompetent and uncreative at best.

Hah, this is the ninja edit I made to my post while you must have been making this one: "The biggest problem is they don't understand that they can just say that. Instead they talk through PR speak which ends up being so much more offensive."

So I agree. PR speech to defend creative vision is needlessly obtuse.

"We made Link male. That's what he's always been and how we wish to keep him" is so much better than all the things they said instead.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

Because not everyone wants to play a male protagonist. Namely a large number of female gamers would like to have female protagonists that they could enjoy playing as, for the self-insert quality. It's why I personally prefer games with a male protagonist, because it's easier for me to insert myself into the role when I share the gender of the person I'm playing. Plenty of women and girls are the same way. My 3 god daughters all, if given a choice of characters to play as, (in games like Hyrule Warriors for example), pick a female character, because they enjoy them more.

I'm a male I've played many games that have female leads as well as games that give multiple character options that include both sexes. We already have a lot of diversity in this department.

The many male protag games I play I don't play them because of some self-insert fantasy either because having a male protag doesn't mean anything to me personally. Yet if that's what the franchise went with then it has to be respected.

I don't go whining "why isn't alice in wonderland a male" and demand the change. It's not productive in any way shape or form.

Great idea! ....how many of those are they actually putting out? Not many, and that's part of the problem, especially with Nintendo. They're so petrified to try new IP's, they've been rehashing the same 3 IP's for 30 damn years. So fans of Nintendo (and LoZ in particular), are expressing a desire for them to show some variety. Basically "If you're never going to make a Hyrule game with a female protagonist, because you have decided that the Hero of Hyrule is always Link, then we want a female Link sometimes."

Many. Bayonetta isn't the only IP if anything the only platform neglecting female leads is Microsoft yet that's mainly because their entire focus is sports, cars, fps. Even though they are getting their games to expand and allow for both sexes.

If we go with Female only leads sure it may not be massive but there's many games. Alice in wonderland, Beyond Good & Evil (?), Bloodrayne, Clock Tower, Fatal Frame, Cooking Mama, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Shantae, Super Princess Peach, Neptunia games‎, etc. Neglecting many games that I don't believe will interest either gender as gamers like barbie and bratz. As well as games that wont be productive to this discussion like DoA Beach volleyball. Since there's many more games to mention but...I can't remember them all.

There's also games I'd like to bring up such as Ar Tonelico and Valkyrie Profile.

If we go with both sexes then there's bigger options because that's been the case with many games for decades now. Many of the Mario games as well as the rpg counterparts allowed for, Pokemon games, Diablo, DMC, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, etc.

So no I don't believe there's a shortage and trying to strongarm many creative figures by demanding lead character be female will only make it worse not better.

....how did the media shut down the potential for that to happen? We have 2 Bayonetta games. That is the opposite of shutting down the potential for that to happen.

Because they nitpick and games like bayonetta that can lead to companies to be more open minded can't because companies realize that if they ever bother making a female protag game in this day and age they will have to deal with so much media blacklash. Since it isn't about having strong female leads it's about cherry picking a narrative to give legitimacy to something that doesn't exists.

Eh. It isn't that hard to explain why they want it... Because Link isn't a character with actual characterization. He is at best an avatar for the player. It would change effectively zero on the game. Link never talks or does anything. Characters react around him and that is all. Now that isn't the only thing in this case, either. Unlike other silent protagonists like say, Gordon Freeman or Chell etc., it is never the same Link in any of the games with the exception of direct sequels like Majora's Mask or what ever. So it REALLY doesn't matter in the long run of the series. It is just the easiest game series to change the gender without actually causing a fuss over anything. Just because of how convoluted the series works with its game world.

Sure link is a silent but those "reactions" to him especially when its story related makes sense a lot of the time for him to be male instead of female. So personally it does matter. Yes link is effeminate at a fault but that works well for its narrative.

Personally, though, I think it is misguided to want a gender-swapped Link. Cause doing that doesn't really change the game in any way except to appear progressive. They have a completely good female character like Zelda who would easily be able to carry her own game in the series, and having Princess Zelda playable would change the entire scope of the game from gameplay to interactions. She doesn't fight like Link at all, so it would allow the game devs to get more creative with level design, game play style, and tone. All of which would be more interesting than just having a gender-bent Link. So it is very depressing to hear Miyamoto pretty much obliterate any hope that Zelda will ever carry the main player role in a main entry in the series.

For the most part yes but he probably said that in retaliation. Since it isn't new in the industry the kind of pros and cons it brings to a company to "expand" that way. So he probably doesn't want to deal with such fixation since he looks to be more focused on the way he wants his creation to grow and expand. Especially when we see the 4 sword games. Personally I'm glad we even got to see a Hyrule Warriors franchise and get to play more than just two female characters such as Zelda and Shiek. Since I had that experience first with smash and the novelty wore off pretty quickly.

I say this because if he did make a female protagonist or create a Zelda game it would quickly escalate into a realm where people will never be satisfied because they would want their specific female in this franchise to get attention.

Since we have Zelda (And her many timeline forms), Tetra, Shiek, Lana, Cia, Great Fairy, Fi, Impa, Ruto, Agitha, Midna, True Form Midna, Marin, Medli, Sarah, the 3 Djinns, etc.

So I understand why he backed away. He already deals with a lot of conflicting reception with his own titles to bother dwelling into this kind of abyss.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

It's the natural test ground for the gender flip/increased female representation argument, because Link lives is a very rare spot. Making Gordon Freeman, or Master Chef, or Mario change genders does have some... unfortunate implications. Namely, how do you explain that shit.

Question. Are you stating this in the context of a character who in-universe has a gender flip? Or just the meta representation of the character?

In universe, and you know damn well all of those 'suggestions' are pants-on-head retarded. As opposed to Link getting flipped, which isn't even a 'proper' gender flip, it's just a gender role reversal with different characters.

Really? An italian plumber eats a flower, doubles his size, and is able to shoot fire out of his mouth, or turn into a racoon and fly are perfectly sound in universe things, but eating something and having a gender flip is "pants on head retarded"? And the other two have such levels of fanciful scifi in them that is perfectly fine (portals, alternate dimensions, biochemical hijacking of high-structure organisms), all that's fine, but again, gender swapping is a bridge too far?

Though that does remind me, I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night. How much of this hesitation to make a femLink is possibly due to the gender social structures in Japanese culture? I know only vague bits of how it works, but is it possible that a lot of it is just simply due to their culture frowning on representations of women in power? In roles as anything other than a support role/love interest?

Seeing as I get my throat kicked in every time I try to talk about an Asian culture, I'll leave the speculation to you. I'm already in a nasty fight at the moment and don't need seconds.

Apparently, given the level of open hostility that's bleeding through your responses to me so far, yeah you probably don't need anything further.

It's just a case of Link being the most easily, least jarring popular video game hero that could make the switch.

Given how much blowback they've been getting on this subject, I wouldn't agree that he's the least jarring. He seems to be equally jarring as any other male protagonist they are suggesting changing.

I was referring to the least jarring narrative, not to the best fan received possibility. All your examples are eye rollingly stupid, not because of the gender change, but just because those are all things people would rightfully call an ass pull if they were really put into place. Just really stupid. Where as you don't really need to change anything to make Link female - There's a dozen Links already, and there's no lore reason for all of them to be male. Particularly since most Links don't get it on with Zelda (Only the 'first' (NES) Link is implied to become King, as I recall), so there isn't even a 'must be descended from both Zelda and old Link' requirement.

Tl;dr - Most characters, if gender flipped, end up eliciting the question 'But why do it?' When it comes to Link, the question becomes 'Why not?' And as far as I can tell, no one's come up with a reason, besides 'Muh Links.'

Where as I think most people could very rightfully claim that 'Aliens dun gave'em a vajay jay' is a very dumb narrative answer.

Wow, I simply respond to your posts, and you toss that much aggression at me. Eye rollingly stupid. Yeah, fuck you pal. Point your apparent frustration at that other conversation where it should be. Don't spray it around for others to get hit by.

I honestly meant no offense.

Guess there's nothing left to do but for me to apologize and go on my way. So... I am sorry.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Though that does remind me, I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night. How much of this hesitation to make a femLink is possibly due to the gender social structures in Japanese culture? I know only vague bits of how it works, but is it possible that a lot of it is just simply due to their culture frowning on representations of women in power? In roles as anything other than a support role/love interest?

Personal take, they just have a way more laser focused approach to appealing to demographics. Like having manga that's Shounen and Shoujo, it's written for teenage boys and teenage girls respectively but it's not that weird for people to read/like manga that isn't 'for' them (like dudes rocking out to Sailor Moon and how many girls in Tokyo love Attack on Titan). There's also the fact Japanese games tend to have a greater number of female protagonists but also have a bad tendency to make them fan-servicey in a jaded attempt to plumb both markets.

OT: I'ma be honest, I do think Metroid feels like a Sci-Fi Zelda in a lot of ways with the exploration and weapon acquisition so I do think of her as a Female Link, but I'm pretty sure people want Fem!Link because its way popular and lots of Female gamers have it in a special place in their heart. SWEEPING generalisation, but that's just what I've encountered and kinda why I think its had such a notable push.

 

[Something Amyss]

And meeting the soul of a previous Link does kind of shoot down reincarnation, as it's explicitly a separate entity from the Link you're controlling, not some past memory.

But then, the Hero's Shade also says that these are skills that can only be passed down through the "Hero's Bloodline," which confirms the other theory, which would indicate that you can't necessarily count on either as gospel.

Further, unless this has been specified, we don't know how "souls" work in Hyrule, nor what process animates the Hero's Shade. He is mostly an animated skeleton, but what process animates him? I mean, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a vampire has all your memories but a demon kicked your soul out and is now living it up in your body. Is a shade the actual soul? Does it specify that? Could it be an echo? Magic imitating? Something not immediately coming to mind?

It doesn't shoot down reincarnation unless we know more.

But if we take Twilight Princess as gospel, then it's confirmed that anyone who learns those maneuvers is from the hero's bloodline.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

I see no problem with having a female protagonist in TLoZ. It just doesn't have to be done by gender swapping anyone. The story already follows what is basically a reincarnation kind of story with the three main characters. Any one of their descendants could be male or female. Or, simply rotate who is born with which triforce. Play a game where Zelda is born with Courage (or Power!) Maybe Link is a wise sage or a helpless prince? How much more damage could Ganon inflict with Wisdom? It's not hard to think outside of the box a little while still using your canon characters, without immediately heeding the SJW calls.

 

[Kajin]

Honestly the suggestion I made in one of the other threads about this is probably the best for everyone involved. Make it so that one of the games Link is born as a set of fraternal twins, the other one being... Linkle... (Ugh, I hate that name so damn much). He's the spirit of the hero reincarnated, as always, but because of the whole fraternal twin thing Linkle somehow ended up with the Triforce of Courage.

Bada bing bada boom, you got your female Link while simultaneously also having a male Link. Pick which one you want to play as from there. Maybe the other one is an NPC companion, or goes off to fight monsters while you do the dungeon spelunking. It doesn't matter. One half got what they asked for, the other half got what they asked for, everyone wins. Bonus, we also get a brand new character to exploit for awesome merchandise and potential sequels/spinoffs. Everyone wins even harder.

The only thing I ask is that you give Linkle a huge ass crossbow. Heroines love crossbows. Get that heroine a ballista.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

I see no problem with having a female protagonist in TLoZ. It just doesn't have to be done by gender swapping anyone. The story already follows what is basically a reincarnation kind of story with the three main characters. Any one of their descendants could be male or female. Or, simply rotate who is born with which triforce. Play a game where Zelda is born with Courage (or Power!) Maybe Link is a wise sage or a helpless prince? How much more damage could Ganon inflict with Wisdom? It's not hard to think outside of the box a little while still using your canon characters, without immediately heeding the SJW calls.

While we can speculate how it can work. The problem will eventually be that people will want the races to become an available option and other aspects the game includes. It will be a demand that wont be easy to achieve. The series will eventually stray drastically away from its roots this way.

 

[Orga777]

Because not everyone wants to play a male protagonist. Namely a large number of female gamers would like to have female protagonists that they could enjoy playing as, for the self-insert quality. It's why I personally prefer games with a male protagonist, because it's easier for me to insert myself into the role when I share the gender of the person I'm playing. Plenty of women and girls are the same way. My 3 god daughters all, if given a choice of characters to play as, (in games like Hyrule Warriors for example), pick a female character, because they enjoy them more.

For the most part yes but he probably said that in retaliation. Since it isn't new in the industry the kind of pros and cons it brings to a company to "expand" that way. So he probably doesn't want to deal with such fixation since he looks to be more focused on the way he wants his creation to grow and expand. Especially when we see the 4 sword games. Personally I'm glad we even got to see a Hyrule Warriors franchise and get to play more than just two female characters such as Zelda and Shiek. Since I had that experience first with smash and the novelty wore off pretty quickly.

I say this because if he did make a female protagonist or create a Zelda game it would quickly escalate into a realm where people will never be satisfied because they would want their specific female in this franchise to get attention.

Since we have Zelda (And her many timeline forms), Tetra, Shiek, Lana, Cia, Great Fairy, Fi, Impa, Ruto, Agitha, Midna, True Form Midna, Marin, Medli, Sarah, the 3 Djinns, etc.

So I understand why he backed away. He already deals with a lot of conflicting reception with his own titles to bother dwelling into this kind of abyss.

That is just silly a fear and quite nonsensical, IMO. Princess Zelda, unlike pretty much everyone else on that list, has been in more than one game. Her name is in the title of the series. Having her playable would not cause a fit because X character needs a game too for people to be happy. When Tingle gets two games, it is kinda dumb that Zelda hasn't been playable yet.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

That is just silly a fear and quite nonsensical, IMO. Princess Zelda, unlike pretty much everyone else on that list, has been in more than one game. Her name is in the title of the series. Having her playable would not cause a fit because X character needs a game too for people to be happy. When Tingle gets two games, it is kinda dumb that Zelda hasn't been playable yet.

Many of those games are created by other teams. It's the reason we've been able to see that Tingle game, Hyrule Warriors(supervisor), Oracles/Ages. How those go about I haven't bothered with the specifics.

People get Hyrule Warriors and still people aren't happy. So yeah the fear is justified.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

That is just silly a fear and quite nonsensical, IMO. Princess Zelda, unlike pretty much everyone else on that list, has been in more than one game. Her name is in the title of the series. Having her playable would not cause a fit because X character needs a game too for people to be happy. When Tingle gets two games, it is kinda dumb that Zelda hasn't been playable yet.

Many of those games are created by other teams. It's the reason we've been able to see that Tingle game, Hyrule Warriors(supervisor), Oracles/Ages. How those go about I haven't bothered with the specifics.

People get Hyrule Warriors and still people aren't happy. So yeah the fear is justified.

I always think how hilarious it would be if "they got one, why aren't they happy?" were reversed.

"Gee, wow, we got a third party game where the main character is still Link, everything is better forever."

 

[Gamerpalooza]

I always think how hilarious it would be if "they got one, why aren't they happy?" were reversed.

"Gee, wow, we got a third party game where the main character is still Link, everything is better forever."

It's funny ain't it?

I don't bag on people about this just because. Hell I would be demanding all sorts of things to be done to many franchises just like many others but I would rather they do it willingly. Especially when they ask for consumer feedback that's the best time to bring it up peacefully not in an authoritarian manner. Since there's many companies that feel pressured to give consumers what they want, franchise wise, and they don't even do it properly. Then use that chance to bag on consumers with nonsense like "something is better than nothing" or "stop being entitled". I don't see a point in falling for that kind of trap that creates division between creators and consumers.