Why doesn't the iPod touch get recognition as a handheld gaming console?

[Tom Phoenix]

I personally do not have an iPad, iPod Touch, iPhone or any other Apple product (infact, other than regular iPods, you do not see Apple products frequently in Europe), nor have I played games on any of them. So while I am going to express my view on the matter, I want to make it clear that I have no personal experience with the platform and that you should take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I think the iPod Touch does qualify as a gaming platform. Why wouldn't it? There have been games on handheld devices for many years now. Take cellphones for example. They have had games for years now. I have a really old phone, a Nokia 6070. Yet, I can play many games on it. Infact, if I go onto Vodafone Live (my local mobile provider is part of Vodafone), I can find many famous IP's among the titles. Assassin's Creed, Age of Empires III Mobile, Tetris Revolution, God of War Betrayal, Pro Evolution Soccer 2010 etc. So if mobile phones can be a gaming platform , I don't see why the iPod Touch cannot be considered one, especially with the large library of games it has.

However, there is another reason why I mention mobile phones specifically and that is beacuse, as a gaming platform, I would sooner compare the iPod Touch to that rather than platforms like the DS and PSP. While all of them qualify as "handheld gaming devices" in a sense, I don't think the iPod Touch or mobile phones serve the same function in gaming as something like Sony's and Nintendo's handhelds. Portable gaming systems like the PSP and the DS are unique in the fact that they are used both as a portable system as well as a dedicated system. People not only use them to play on the go, they also use them to play certain games on hours on end.

In comparison, that is not something people look for in mobile phone and iPod games. While I am sure there are people that do lose hours to playing any specific game on their iPod or mobile phone, that is not the reason the majority of people play these games. More often than not, they play them just to pass the time during a short break while at work/school, while stuck in a traffic jam or when they don't have a newspaper/magazine to read while on the toilette. Adam Sessler, the editor-in-chief on G4TV, actually talked about this topic recently in one of his Sessler's Soapboxes and he referred to iPhone games as "every-so-often games", which I think is a fitting description. Overall, while there certainly are exceptions, the consenquence of such an attitude is that there is a primary emphasis on short, cheap and somewhat simple games.

Ultimately, I think the answer to the question "why do so many people not consider the iPod Touch a serious gaming platform?" can be seen if one looks at how much money are people willing to give for a game on the iPod. While a more expensive game isn't necessarilly a better one, it can serve as an indicator as to how much people are willing to invest into playing on a specific system. Generally, the greater the price of a game, the more people will expect to gain from the title. But if all they are looking for is something to pass the time during a short break, they will not be willing to drop 40$, 50$ or even 60$ merely for such a purpose (especially since there are free games to be found on the App Store).

That, I think, is the crux of the problem. If nothing else, this thread has proven that the iPod Touch is a technically very proficient system, even moreso than the DS and PSP in some aspects. But as long as people are only in the market for cheap "timewasters", that is what developers are going to be primarily creating. Even if there are titles that try to tap into the platforms potential, it's all for naught if developers cannot afford to put a bigger price tag on it in order to compensate for a more expensive development process. As long as that remains the case, iPod games will never be able to achieve the same quality, length and production value as titles on the PSP/DS, let alone as those on the PC/consoles. Developers have to make money in order to ensure their existance and they won't achieve that by creating games of the same quality as those on the PSP/DS, while selling them at one-tenth of the price.

Waw, this post took longer than expected, especially since I would hardly consider myself knowledgable on the matter. >_< As I said, I do not have personal experience with iPod games. Nevertheless, here is my opinion, so...take it as you will.

On a completely unrelated note, I recently bought a Game Boy Micro and, I must say, I love it. Very practical and ergonomic, while quite stylish at the same time. Yokoi-san, may your soul rest in peace. This little gadget truly was your chef-d'oeuvre.

 

[migo]

Mind linking to Ireland's most popular ISP? I just don't see how that could be the case that even using WiFi is expensive. I've had my share of crappy and nonexistant WiFi access, but never to the point where downloading iOS games would be unviable.

http://www.eircom.net/broadband/products/bundles/17013105/13/

Here's the connection we're supposed to have; a 7Mbps connection that gets closer to 4Mbps - on a good day. Note the cost per month, and add the cost of a lot of the better iOS games onto that - it soon adds up.
[/quote]

I cant get the link for the 1Mb connection to load, but at $25 thats not too bad, and unless it has a really low transfer cap that would be fine. Certainly 60 euros looks pretty bad, but you dont need a constant connection, so even dialup would do the trick.

Then again, I don't like digital distribution anyway, because it requires you to have a credit card. For several reasons, I do not have a credit card, which rather limits me when it comes to the era of paid DLC and digitally-distributed games. All of my games on Steam have been bought by conventional means, and I haven't bought any sort of game through digital distribution since the late 1990s.

You can buy iTunes cards at the store with cash. Same with PSN and XBLA actually.

In terms of hardware, the 3DS is not going to have any obvious graphical advantages, but developers will be more willing to squeeze all of the potential that they can out of the hardware than the iOS devices, and won't have the memory overhead of an OS running in the background. Some developers may well forego the 3D potential of the 3DS in order to generate even more impressive graphics.

Developers are quite willing to squeeze whatever they can out of iOS devices. I dont agree with you at all here.

Maybe because it was released two years after the PlayStation, where one would logically expect a difference in power. The 3DS and iPhone 4 will have a nine-month gap between release dates, and the hardware specifications of the 3DS have already been finalised.

And shortly after the 3DS is released another iPhone will come out, followed a few months later by an iPod touch. And as I said, some of the iPod touch 3G specifications already exceed those of the 3DS. Apple doesnt have anything to worry about there.

Phones with superior telephonic capabilities and messaging abilities respectively outsell mobile computers with mediocre abilities at both. Who would have thunk it?

Nokia S40 devices have better messaging capabilities than their S60 devices, which have a clunky implementation of Conversations. Youve got better calling capabilities and better camera features, messaging is weaker on S60 than pretty much everything out there, dumbphones included.

Apple is ahead - in that small segment of the smartphone market which it occupies. Considering that Q1 2010 sales figures put Apple at 15.4% of the market and Android at 9.8% of the market, I don't think you could quite consider that in the same league as the "90% Windows, 9% OS X, 1% Linux" state of the desktop market.

Microsoft didnt have 90% marketshare in the DOS days. Were more around the equivalent of the Apple II, Commodore 64 era.

Also, MeeGo isn't out, but Maemo is - and Maemo is just MeeGo with a different name. Of course, it makes up a miniscule amount of the market, but the Nokia N900 was unashamedly made as a mobile computer with telephonic capabilities as a secondary concern, and targeted at techno-geeks with at least tolerance for Linux.

N900 wont get official MeeGo support, and Maemo support took a major blow with the announcement of MeeGo. The UI demos Ive seen of it are sweet, the LG GW990 looks like an incredibly solid device, and Im quite eager to see how Moorestown does in a smartphone, but still everything about MeeGo is in the remains to be seen category.

My computer is powerful enough, but based on that, Dragon Age: Origins is still disappointing graphically with that extra power in mind. The games which really look good, e.g. Crysis, ARMA 2, have a reputation for making lesser computers melt.

Those games are really more tech demos than anything else. The games people are actually going to play are StarCraft II, Diablo III, Civilization 5, Guild Wars 2, etc. Those arent going to bring the average system with a PCIe graphics card to its knees.

Which of course makes it even more amusing that Nokia have allowed Symbian to become open-source and are going for another mobile operating system with more readily available hackability than nearly any other mobile OS.

Yeah, even though theyre quite sluggish as a company, if the Maemo/MeeGo team is any indication Nokia is at least still quite open minded.

I think, though, if I'm going to go for a device where concessions have been made in the firmware for gaming, perhaps it would be more sensible to go for the one where concessions have been made entirely for gaming, like the Nintendo DS.

The DS still has a number of drawbacks that the iPod touch doesnt. Namely that the face buttons are too damn small, and since theyre physical theres nothing that can be done about it. And again, thats like saying you should go for a console instead of a gaming PC.

It wouldn't be hard to get them going on the simple games like Tap Tap Revenge, but then, I'm not necessarily of the viewpoint that casual gaming automatically improves the breed of computer games as a whole, and I'm not inclined to encourage them.

I think hardcore gaming and the traditional distribution model has worsened it. If you look at the NES and Atari 2600, some of the games are just a single gameplay element and theyre a lot of fun. iOS has a lot of games like that, which are easy to get into, have no learning curve, but get quite difficult and make it hard to get certain high scores.

The platform games I typically play are 3D Mario games, which do have quite involved level design. Considering this, that's not a great selling point for iOS for me specifically, and while I can't speak for all gamers, that would be about the complexity that you'd probably be aiming for overall.

I havent found any 3D platformer yet thats as good as 2D ones Ive played. It strikes me as a genre that doesnt do well in 3D. Obviously opinions will differ, but 3D games are actually going to be easier to do on iOS than a 2D platformer.

The Nintendo DS Lite and DSi aren't all that large, I feel. The iPod Touch is a lot lighter, but I don't think there's much about the later DS designs that makes them child-unfriendly.

Using the touch screen on the DS is quite awkward for those with small hands.

 

[Sparten0515]

Im pretty sure its not counted as a console because it was not made for that purpose, it was made for music. I will admit though, it dose have some pretty good games, kind of like the I-pad, which is just a bigger version of the I-pod touch.

 

[migo]

In comparison, that is not something people look for in mobile phone and iPod games. While I am sure there are people that do lose hours to playing any specific game on their iPod or mobile phone, that is not the reason the majority of people play these games. More often than not, they play them just to pass the time during a short break while at work/school, while stuck in a traffic jam or when they don't have a newspaper/magazine to read while on the toilette. Adam Sessler, the editor-in-chief on G4TV, actually talked about this topic recently in one of his Sessler's Soapboxes and he referred to iPhone games as "every-so-often games", which I think is a fitting description. Overall, while there certainly are exceptions, the consenquence of such an attitude is that there is a primary emphasis on short, cheap and somewhat simple games.

Youre quite right about this, although its something I consider a strength, and one of the reasons gaming on iOS has become as successful as it is. If youre waiting at the bus stop, busting out marble maze, on which you can finish a level in 10-20 seconds, is quite easy. With a PSP you might not get past the loading screen before you have to put it away. As a portable gaming system, being able to play something really quickly is a strong advantage. While iOS games can be just as long and involved as PSP and DS games, the potential to put those quick games on a PSP is much lower, and as is the DS isnt well suited to it either without an R4. It was one of the considerations I had when deciding which system to buy - the iPod touch covers the whole spectrum of gaming, from the really short and simple games to the long and involved ones that take hours. If Ive got 20 minutes to wait at the doctors office theres a game for that. If theres 2 minutes between train stations theres a game for that. Depending on how much time I have Ill go for an entirely different game, as some of them just arent suitable if theres only a short amount of time to play them, and others get tedious if played for too long.

Ultimately, I think the answer to the question "why do so many people not consider the iPod Touch a serious gaming platform?" can be seen if one looks at how much money are people willing to give for a game on the iPod. While a more expensive game isn't necessarilly a better one, it can serve as an indicator as to how much people are willing to invest into playing on a specific system. Generally, the greater the price of a game, the more people will expect to gain from the title. But if all they are looking for is something to pass the time during a short break, they will not be willing to drop 40$, 50$ or even 60$ merely for such a purpose (especially since there are free games to be found on the App Store).

Absolutely, and even the most expensive games just hit $10 - the same types of games that cost $40 otherwise. If youre willing to pay $40 for a game, no reason not to pay $10 for it and have $30 left over for 3 more. What skews this as well is piracy - some big budget titles like Disgea get a massive amount of pirated downloads, so people want to play it obviously, but not pay for it.

Even if there are titles that try to tap into the platforms potential, it's all for naught if developers cannot afford to put a bigger price tag on it in order to compensate for a more expensive development process.

Thats turning out alright though. Assassins Creed hit 8.5 million purchases already, at a price of $10. The best selling PSP game is only at 3.5 million purchases. At $40 that would bring in $140 million, but $85 million for Assassins Creed is a really solid return. With cheaper games come more purchases, so in the end the costs are still recouped.

As long as that remains the case, iPod games will never be able to achieve the same quality, length and production value as titles on the PSP/DS, let alone as those on the PC/consoles. Developers have to make money in order to ensure their existance and they won't achieve that by creating games of the same quality as those on the PSP/DS, while selling them at one-tenth of the price.

Yeah, but that state of affairs ended over a year ago.

On a completely unrelated note, I recently bought a Game Boy Micro and, I must say, I love it. Very practical and ergonomic, while quite stylish at the same time. Yokoi-san, may your soul rest in peace. This little gadget truly was your chef-d'oeuvre.

Yokoi left Nintendo and died before the GBM was even conceived.

 

[Tom Phoenix]

Youre quite right about this, although its something I consider a strength, and one of the reasons gaming on iOS has become as successful as it is. If youre waiting at the bus stop, busting out marble maze, on which you can finish a level in 10-20 seconds, is quite easy. With a PSP you might not get past the loading screen before you have to put it away. As a portable gaming system, being able to play something really quickly is a strong advantage. While iOS games can be just as long and involved as PSP and DS games, the potential to put those quick games on a PSP is much lower, and as is the DS isnt well suited to it either without an R4. It was one of the considerations I had when deciding which system to buy - the iPod touch covers the whole spectrum of gaming, from the really short and simple games to the long and involved ones that take hours. If Ive got 20 minutes to wait at the doctors office theres a game for that. If theres 2 minutes between train stations theres a game for that. Depending on how much time I have Ill go for an entirely different game, as some of them just arent suitable if theres only a short amount of time to play them, and others get tedious if played for too long.

Of course it's a strength, noone can deny that. However, the problem becomes when people seek only those type of games on a specific platform. In such a market, there is no place for RPGs, RTSes or any other games that are complicated and/or require hours to complete. Nobody is going to buy such games if they only use the platform for playing in brief, ocassional 5-20 minute sessions.

So while an iPod is completely sufficient for a layman, a dedicated gamer is still better off with a PSP/DS (arguably, the DS moreso than the PSP).

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, a 20 minute session is just fine for a single game in an RTS. But the rest of my point still stands.

Absolutely, and even the most expensive games just hit $10 - the same types of games that cost $40 otherwise. If youre willing to pay $40 for a game, no reason not to pay $10 for it and have $30 left over for 3 more. What skews this as well is piracy - some big budget titles like Disgea get a massive amount of pirated downloads, so people want to play it obviously, but not pay for it.

This is true, assuming that $10 game is just as good as the $40 one. However, the point I was trying to make is that more often than not, you are able to squeeze a lot more hours of entertainment from a $40 title then a $10 title since people expect more from a $40 title.

Of course, not every $40 game manages to live up to that expectation. In the case it does, however, that single game might be worth more than the four $10 games combined, especially since cheaper games have to sacrifice certain aspects in order to remain profitable (such a length, visuals, sound etc.).

Thats turning out alright though. Assassins Creed hit 8.5 million purchases already, at a price of $10. The best selling PSP game is only at 3.5 million purchases. At $40 that would bring in $140 million, but $85 million for Assassins Creed is a really solid return. With cheaper games come more purchases, so in the end the costs are still recouped.

Perhaps, but that isn't always bound to work. Especially if a title isn't a standard "timewaster", there is no guaruantee it will be able to recouperate all the costs with such a low price.

Actually, now that I think about it, it might not do so even if it is a "timewaster", given that such platforms contain so many. Infact, Sessler even speculated that the "goldrush" of game apps might result in consumers ending up not buying anything out of frustration and confusion, which would result in a market crash akin to that of the US video game industry in 1983.

Yeah, but that state of affairs ended over a year ago.

Ok, this statement has me confused. You said yourself that games on the iPod cost $10 at maximum. If that is the case, then the state of affairs hasn't changed. Consumers are still unwilling to fork over a larger amount of money for an iPod game, which means that developers are still financially restricted as to what they can do.

Or are you somehow implying that iPod games can reach the same quality, length and production value as PSP/DS games at a fraction of a cost?

Yokoi left Nintendo and died before the GBM was even conceived.

Yes, unfortunately, I got my facts mixed up. I thought the Micro was the last handheld he worked on, but it was actually the Virtual Boy (the failure of which was the reason he left).

Oh well, I still think the GBM is one fine piece of hardware. Kudos to the Nintendo design team who made it.

 

[Akalistos]

Great, could you do my shirt. I have a meeting on Monday. Thank You!(Since I don't know if your are either British, American, Canadian or Australian... i won't bash you since English isn't my first language.)

It's a meme. Evidently hasn't caught on over here.

Yeah, right... I soooo believe you. It's a mistake, and that's why there a eraser on every pencil.

No he didn't. And even if he did, show him proof.

I don't need to show him proof, he knows he made it up, and anyone who reads this thread in chronological order in its entirety knows that too.[/quote]

Did you asked him if he tried it? No? How do you know that he never played it then?

Because he didn't know they existed. Clearly if he had played them he wouldn't have made the patently false claim that there aren't any big name games for iOS.

And the fact that you can prove him wrong, as in, beyond any shadow of a doubt and then call him on it isn't good. Laziness maybe? Beside, once you prove your point there no comeback possible, leaving you with the final word on it. No, let all be lazy and don't give a damn. Or maybe your the one that pull all the fact form your ass like a little fanboy trying to pimp his stuff on the internet in a way people wouldn't laugh at him for buying one?

Me speaking too fast... must slow down for Migo. You should look it up. Many of the first games release fade into obscurity. Just look up on Gamespot and look the score of all the first... let say 5 month, game of any console. You would be surprise. (by the way, when some show proof and you don't look it up, you become the one that pull stuff out of your ass.)

While that's all very interesting, it's not very relevant to that particular thread.

What? Your the one that said:

I'm not going to fire back like that, since that doesn't make any sense.

Then what didn't make sense? The fact that GTA - Chinatown Wars was a old Assassin Creed 2 [http://www.gamespot.com/psp/action/grandtheftautochinatownwars/index.html] for the DS? (BTW: read the bolded line, you get a laugh!)

...Because you either don't have proof or your the one pulling stuff out of your ass. That the only conclusion that you leave me with.

I don't need to repeat stuff I've already said once in the thread, if people didn't read it through the first time, what guarantee do I have that they will when I show proof as they demand it? You're a perfect example of not reading it through.

No. I read it all. I read the very first post, the response for Danpascooch, your reply.... ect. So don't pull thing out of your ass. All you said are opinions that YOU want people to believe as facts. If you can't back it up, it doesn't mean much to me.

No, your the one making stuff up. I says when I... [HEADING=2]I[/HEADING]
say:
That meant it was a example. You clearly call him a liar and here's proof:

You're moving goal posts, but I didn't take you seriously from your first post so it's not like this has really damaged your credibility.

That said, I didn't call him names, I said he pulled it out of his ass, which he did.

There's no point in arguing with people who make shit up to prove their point. As in totally make shit up.

Which mean you attack him and not his arguments.
It's a good thing that nobody can delete his old posts.

You don't understand what an attack is. he eats babies. I did not.

Would you look at that? Wow, he eat babies.

Seriously, when you can't back up you claim and call the other one full of shit, you are ALSO full of shit. I could say that the Ipad isn't a gaming device but a portable computer and therefore shouldn't be recognize as a gaming device and i wouldn't be wrong. That's how it was design. So what Now? i have to prove it: http://www.apple.com/ipad/
And if you look, gaming is very very very far from the thing Apple promote. Also, everyone knows that the Ipad is just an oversize Iphone. The interface, the applications and system are all the same. Is Iphone considered a gaming platform? No.

Now tell me Why i'm wrong and prove it.

 

[Miles Tormani]

You just don't give up, do you?

I know they are, that's why I asked which games people had experience with first before continuing further.

Please enlighten me as to how most of the games being shovelware is not a good reason to dismiss something as not a gaming console then. The Wii at least has decent first party titles, as well as decent third party titles that aren't lazy ports from other systems.

I live in Vancouver. We have a lot of bad drivers. It's a wonder they're even licensed. They don't swerve.

Just like how someone with an arcade stick never fucks up a Shoryuken. I'm going to take your own argument again: You pulled that out of your ass.

That wasn't just a bad way of saying it, it wasn't saying it at all.

Which is exactly why I brought attention to the fact that I fucked it up, and yet you continue to jump on it anyway. The fact that you have to prove yourself right here is just further evidence that you are a fanboy.

Frankly, though. I'm not sure exactly how you're trying to prove my original statement wrong. Every time you jump on my ass for every single thing I say against your precious device, you're just adding more fuel to that theory. I would say I don't even know why I'm bothering attempting to make you see otherwise, but I realized already that I'm not. I just want to see how you fling poo next. Speaking of which...

If you have issues with spatial relations, that might be a problem. There's always getting a joystick though which gives the same type of feedback, but more control options. Dual Analog isn't even second.

Another insult at myself as a person, and ignorance what dual analog is. Wouldn't you know it? It's two joysticks. Following basic math, two joysticks inherently creates more control options than one. Fancy that, huh?

Up the sensitivity. Trackball. It's even better than a mouse irrespective of the desk space issue.

The sensitivity is quite high, which happens to kill accuracy in FPS games. I also find trackballs to be a pain in the ass to use.

Besides which, why should I go buy more peripherals for my computer when I have a perfectly good dual analog Xbox 360 controller? One that I can perform perfectly fine with no less? But oh wait, my opinion is wrong and I have to like trackballs as opposed to using a universal controller that works with everything and I don't have to worry about sitting up straight at my desk to use!

I've had my share of desk space shortages, it doesn't get in my way of using a mouse.

I've had my share of room space shortages; it doesn't get in my way of using a controller.

Seriously. If you're going to make arguments against my opinions, at least use ones that can't be instantly turned around by cutting and replacing a few words.

I wasn't talking about TF2. I was talking about Halo, to make it even viable for a console they had to put aim assist in, and they set up the ports to not allow a mouse and keyboard to keep it fair for people who just had controllers.

And I only made a passing reference to Halo. Once again, a minor error with my argument, but you ignore the minor nature of it and try to make it look like that was my entire argument. Besides, what of all the times I've played PC FPSes with a controller? As in, actually on the PC? I figured I'd bring up Team Fortress since it was a PC game lazily ported to Xbox and PS3, and I don't remember any damn aim assist in that, but apparently you have a problem with that as well.

If an opinion is wrong, it's wrong. Something being an opinion doesn't suddenly make it not wrong.

Okay, let's try a different approach. I'm going to discuss your favored device, in a stripped down method that's similar to what you're saying to me.

Your love of the iPod Touch as a gaming system is wrong. Constantly moving greasy thumbs on the screen turns it into a smudgy piece of shit. It is impossible to accurately do anything when your fingers are directly in the way of what you need to look at. I don't care about your "I have small fingers" excuse. If it's not viable for everyone, then it's clearly not good enough. Especially with your black and white view of the word, where a near-victory is still as much a failure as getting completely pwned.

They are.

Again with the blanket statement that I'm just wrong. I suppose then that everyone else who thinks the iPhone sucks is also automatically wrong? I think I'll enlist some help here, and further the quote train.

First of all, the E70 has a full keyboard, not some shitty stripped down, tap-and-pray smudgy piece of shit. Nokia uses a technology that's even more advanced than the iPhone's tap screen, allowing you to actually feel the keys you press as you're pressing them! The technology is called "tactile response," and it allows you to do things like dial a phone number without staring at your screen like a shit-chucking ape. In fact, every other cellphone ever made has this technology, sometimes called "buttons."

Source [http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone]

You want to argue with Maddox? Be my fucking guest.

Not the case at all. That's new age BS.

New age BS. Like telling me that Wii Wheel controls in Mario Kart Wii are nothing like tilting the phone to control a racer in a typical iPhone game.

But since that's your opinion, and apparently your opinion is the only one that can't be wrong, I suppose I can't argue it. We can't have someone damaging your precious ego, can we?

Oh, wait. I hear the quote train coming again.

Your motion sensor could have full 1:1 control... but that won't change the fact that without physical feedback, motion controls are unimmersive!

Source [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/844-Wii-Sports-Resort]

Well there's an actually reasonable argument, and several people have already pointed that out on the first two pages, and I acknowledged it as a good point.

Yet despite it being the single most important reason why people dismiss the iPhone as a gaming device, and the fact that you supposedly acknowledged it, you are still trying to argue in the iPhone's favor, in some ridiculous attempt to "convert" everyone who hasn't made an argument that's to your liking.

(And yes, I know I kept saying iPhone while you keep discussing the iPod Touch. As far as this discussion is concerned, they're the same damn thing.)

EDIT: This whole iPhone as a gaming system debate is starting to remind me of the Power Glove. I have the same response as a man considered by some to be the domination of the Internet.

 

[Miles Tormani]

Constantly moving greasy thumbs on the screen turns it into a smudgy piece of shit.

While the grease issue isn't demonstratably as big as it seems from first glance, it's still a major problem for me, regardless of oleophobic coatings or whatever else they're trying to do to negate the situation. I have a pathological hatred of greasy fingerprints or marks on screens; as I wear glasses, and such marks impede my vision, my issues with greasy marks can be extrapolated from that, even if they aren't such major issues on screens as on the pieces of glass right in front of my eyes.

I'd like to point out here that I mostly brought that up, along with everything else in the paragraph the quote was extracted from, to demonstrate exactly how much of a douche migo sounds like with his arguments toward me.

 

[migo]

It's a meme. Evidently hasn't caught on over here.

Yeah, right... I soooo believe you. It's a mistake, and that's why there a eraser on every pencil.[/quote]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ironing

You fail.

And the fact that you can prove him wrong, as in, beyond any shadow of a doubt and then call him on it isn't good. Laziness maybe? Beside, once you prove your point there no comeback possible, leaving you with the final word on it. No, let all be lazy and don't give a damn.

Once again, you're a hypocrite. You're accusing me of being lazy when you're too lazy to read the thread properly and see that what I said is the case.

Then what didn't make sense?

Your simulated response that you think I should have made.

No. I read it all. I read the very first post, the response for Danpascooch, your reply.... ect. So don't pull thing out of your ass. All you said are opinions that YOU want people to believe as facts. If you can't back it up, it doesn't mean much to me.

Clearly you didn't read everything.

Which mean you attack him and not his arguments.

Because of his arguments. Everything I said is directly related to his arguments. An ad hominem attack is an unrelated attack. If I call someone stupid for sayins something stupid that's not an ad hominem attack, you can easily infer that if I say what he said is stupid, that he is stupid too.

Now tell me Why i'm wrong and prove it.

The iPad wasn't the topic of discussion, and I already did tell you why you're wrong - last time around. Nothing has changed.

 

[migo]

Of course it's a strength, noone can deny that. However, the problem becomes when people seek only those type of games on a specific platform. In such a market, there is no place for RPGs, RTSes or any other games that are complicated and/or require hours to complete. Nobody is going to buy such games if they only use the platform for playing in brief, ocassional 5-20 minute sessions.

If that were the case, you would be right, but it isn't. Plenty of people play both the quick play games and the long and involved ones.

So while an iPod is completely sufficient for a layman, a dedicated gamer is still better off with a PSP/DS (arguably, the DS moreso than the PSP).

Not at all. Of course this may be the perception in some circles, such as this one, but I've already explained why it's the opposite.

This is true, assuming that $10 game is just as good as the $40 one.

When it's the exact same game, yes it is. (Or bad if you want to make the argument that the game in question sucks...)

However, the point I was trying to make is that more often than not, you are able to squeeze a lot more hours of entertainment from a $40 title then a $10 title since people expect more from a $40 title.

The quality of $40 titles on the DS and PSP is no better than that of $10 titles for iOS. iOS is about selling a higher volume at a lower price for the same net profit for the developers (or higher in some cases).

Perhaps, but that isn't always bound to work. Especially if a title isn't a standard "timewaster", there is no guaruantee it will be able to recouperate all the costs with such a low price.

Considering development cost is $100/year for the app store license and the time spent coding it, it's pretty easy to recoup the cost on a $1 game. After 100 purchases you've broken even on your expenses for the year, and after that it's return on time invested. Obviously the entertaining games will sell better and the unentertaining ones won't, which is as it should be.

Ok, this statement has me confused. You said yourself that games on the iPod cost $10 at maximum. If that is the case, then the state of affairs hasn't changed. Consumers are still unwilling to fork over a larger amount of money for an iPod game, which means that developers are still financially restricted as to what they can do.

It's not that they're unwilling to fork over more, it's just that that's what the prices are at. It's cheaper to release a game for iOS because there isn't the expense of getting it rated by PEGI and the ESRB. There's also no cost in producing the physical media, nor is there the cost in shipping it out to distributors who then send it out to retailers who have their own markup to pay for wages and operating costs.

Or are you somehow implying that iPod games can reach the same quality, length and production value as PSP/DS games at a fraction of a cost?

Yes, well it's dead easy with the PSP since it's a hard platform to develop for while iOS is very easy to develop for. With the DS, it's just an issue of the factors I just mentioned.

 

[migo]

Yes, I remember that now. That would make my claim not to have bought a game through digital distribution since the late 1990s incorrect also, as I've bought a few games over Virtual Console on the Wii. This doesn't change my general dislike of digital distribution, though: I prefer the presence of a hard copy of games that I've just purchased.

Sure, that's a matter of personal preference. I prefer to save physical copies for the very few things I consider to be incredibly good, some people don't even like doing that. Digital distribution is a very popular model for all media - that's undeniable. Currently there's options for both, if you prefer digital distribution for the time being iOS is a better option, if you prefer physical media the PSP or DS is the better option.

If you're constantly running even an ARM processor at 600MHz (soon to be 1GHz), along with the extra battery draw of a GPU, I wouldn't expect the battery life to live up to Apple's estimates. It's probably going to drop to closer to four hours - which brings it right up against the PSP, that of the maligned battery life earlier in the article.

I haven't seen it hit even close to 4 hours, and games have started being made with iPod touch 3G/iPhone 3GS in mind for over a year already. If battery life starts dropping to 4 hours it's because the battery is wearing out.

Which is why I said "respectively". The RIM phones were the ones that I was outlining for their superior messaging capabilities, and at a time when texting and social networking have become the favourite methods of communication, the QWERTY keyboards of such devices actually do give them more attractive qualities to some teenagers and young adults than Apple's expensive mobile devices with a far less comfortable interface for texting, and conversely, a much slower texting rate.

People are hitting 60-70wpm on iOS. I haven't landed it myself, but it's certainly adequate. I know a ton of people who prefer physical keyboards, and I'm among them, but there are also a sizeable portion of them who prefer touch input - particularly when it comes to inputing in different languages and with the use of alternate input methods like Swype (Android only for the time being).

Microsoft's software made it onto a surprisingly high amount of computers in the home computer era; their development of BASIC on the Altair computers meant that a lot of companies purchased the rights to use Microsoft's code on their own computers. If I'm not mistaken, this includes the Commodore 64 itself.

Could be, I wasn't terribly aware of what was going on at the time, but at least in Switzerland there was a more equal distribution of computers rather than the massive dominance of Microsoft that was seen since Windows 95 and the Pentium.

Also, if we take this metaphor literally, the Commodore 64-type machine (the iPhone) will be displaced by a phone system which was previously used for business, but expanded to become a very multi-purpose machine. So, BlackBerry for top slot in 20 years?

Maybe? It's top right now. It had the advantage of data compression server side so was the only viable device for affordable data (not counting the Hiptop) back when GPRS data was horrendously expensive, so it got a very entrenched userbase already, and has expanded from being a primary business tool to also useful for social media. I think Apple and Google will have a hard time taking RIM from the #1 spot.

Considering that the United States Armed Forces uses a derivative of the Real Virtuality engine for its military training, I'd hardly call ARMA 2 just a tech demo.

Far Cry's a full fledged game too, but it's not known for anything other than its graphics capabilities. The games that get discussed the most in terms of actually playing are around the level of Source engine games.

The DS's face buttons could do with a slight size increase, but I've never had any major problems with them, because they're raised and therefore give tactile feedback which helps me identify where my thumb is at any one point in time. Also, for a lot of people, a console is superior to a gaming PC; it's cheaper, with less overhead due to the OS, less chance of hardware incompatibility, et cetera. Due to the genres of games that I play, this will never be a primary option for me, but a lot of people would get a lot more out of a console than a gaming PC, despite the greater flexibility of the PC.

That all depends on what year you're talking about. At this point a gaming PC is far cheaper than a 360 with an Xbox Live Gold membership over a number of years, although the PS3 is starting to edge in at being cheaper. You can land a solid gaming PC off craigslist for $100.

First of all, I'm going to remind you again that my time-wasting game is far from casual. Secondly, I think there's a reason why games don't just rely on a single gameplay element any more; it's because gamers demanded more complex games because eventually, you're going to run out of replay value in most games which rely on single elements. If I'm playing a simple game these days, it's usually either one from the NES era, or else, it's a mini-game inside a more complex game.

You may have noticed that there hasn't been much new blood in video gaming lately aside from the Wii, and of course iOS. It's rather perfect to get people into gaming with simple games and slowly have them work towards more advanced and involved ones. In any case, having the option for either is better than having to choose only one, and the PSP is really weak in the simple games, the DS has a few more, and iOS has a ton of both.

Personally, I've had more fun out of Super Mario 64 DS and Super Mario Galaxy than any 2D platformer I've played so far. The genre is very difficult to get right, as a lot of PlayStation/Nintendo 64-era experiments proved, but Nintendo seem to have made an art of it. Perspective changes, however, can be a problem, and this isn't something that I see iOS doing any better than a console controller.

I can't speak for SM64, but I've tried SMG2, and I find it rather tiresome to play - it's really not the same as Super Mario Land or Super Mario Bros 3. Personal preference and all. Either way, control wise it's only the 2D platformers that iOS has a hard time with.

I wouldn't be able to confirm that; I've been using the older, heavier DS since its launch, and I've never had any real problems with the touch screen. While my fingers are not long, my hand size seems able to cope with the touch screen just fine, but then, I'm an adult and it shouldn't be expected that I'd have problems with it.

I prefer the buttons on the original DS to the DS Lite, the screen on the Lite hasn't improved things all that much though. It's possible that the increased size of the DSi might do it. I guess I'll find out when the 3DS comes out and I start playing around with games on it more frequently.

Conversely, nobody is going to buy such games for the platform if the hardware itself is made for brief sessions. Considering the battery life of the iPod Touch versus the DS, the DS is the more apt platform for longer gaming sessions as are often required in RPGs, particularly the older ones that have save points (more a problem if you're emulating rather than developing it straight for the device in question, but still an issue).

Except those games have a tendency of being made for the PSP more than the DS. I certainly look forward to some turn based RPGs on the 3DS though. As is, Chaos Rings has shown that mechanically iOS is perfectly fine for the game type, and now it's just up to Squenix to take the story design more seriously, as they're doing with FFT WotL.

Just like how someone with an arcade stick never fucks up a Shoryuken. I'm going to take your own argument again: You pulled that out of your ass.

I never said that.

Miles is correct. It's not just drunk drivers that swerve; you've got people distracted by mobile phones, by children, people correcting their path on the motorway.

That's independent of the method of steering, and we also have laws against driving while on the cell phone.

Hell, sometimes I have to swerve when I've been knocked slightly off my path by a gust of wind when travelling above 60mph on the motorway.

That's a separate issue with outside influences.

First of all, irrespective is not a word.

Yes it is. I can't believe people are too dense to look it up in a dictionary before saying something like that. It's irregardless you're thinking of, and even that's become accepted as a nonstandard usage.

Secondly, trackballs are a niche product, and I've never liked them myself. OK, you get rid of the desk-space troubles, but I find it decidedly difficult to be precise with them.

That's clearly your problem, as trackballs are used in CAD specifically because it's impossible to be precise with a mouse while it is with a trackball.

While the grease issue isn't demonstratably as big as it seems from first glance, it's still a major problem for me, regardless of oleophobic coatings or whatever else they're trying to do to negate the situation. I have a pathological hatred of greasy fingerprints or marks on screens; as I wear glasses, and such marks impede my vision, my issues with greasy marks can be extrapolated from that, even if they aren't such major issues on screens as on the pieces of glass right in front of my eyes.

Keep clean hands and it's not a big deal. I always carry purell with me since I'm on transit and I used to teach kids who were quite liberal with sneezing. It's an issue that hardly ever comes up.

 

[migo]

Please enlighten me as to how most of the games being shovelware is not a good reason to dismiss something as not a gaming console then. The Wii at least has decent first party titles, as well as decent third party titles that aren't lazy ports from other systems.

iOS does too, you just don't know about them. If you bother to read the first page you'd know where to go to find out about them.

Which is exactly why I brought attention to the fact that I fucked it up, and yet you continue to jump on it anyway. The fact that you have to prove yourself right here is just further evidence that you are a fanboy.

It's one thing to admit you fucked up, it's another to admit you fucked up and think that it applies retroactively in time. That's not how it works.

Another insult at myself as a person, and ignorance what dual analog is. Wouldn't you know it? It's two joysticks. Following basic math, two joysticks inherently creates more control options than one. Fancy that, huh?

The analog sticks on a control pad are not joysticks. Joysticks are gripped with your hand, not manipulated with the pad of your thumb.

I've had my share of room space shortages; it doesn't get in my way of using a controller.

That's just a retarded comeback.

Seriously. If you're going to make arguments against my opinions, at least use ones that can't be instantly turned around by cutting and replacing a few words.

You're pretty stupid if you think that was turning it around.

And I only made a passing reference to Halo.

I was making the reference to Halo in response to FPS controls with a pad, not in response to anything you said about it.

Your love of the iPod Touch as a gaming system is wrong.

It's not love.

Constantly moving greasy thumbs on the screen turns it into a smudgy piece of shit.

I'm not a slob, so that's not a problem. Maybe you should look at your own hygine issues rather than criticisng the product.

It is impossible to accurately do anything when your fingers are directly in the way of what you need to look at.

They're not, unless your hands are incredibly fat.

I don't care about your "I have small fingers" excuse. If it's not viable for everyone, then it's clearly not good enough.

That's with regards to the DS being inadequate, not with iOS being adequate.

Especially with your black and white view of the word, where a near-victory is still as much a failure as getting completely pwned.

It's funny how people make shit like this up in an argument. It's like getting accused of being liberal and conservative on the same page by different people. You're amplifying our difference in PoV to a ridiculous degree.

Again with the blanket statement that I'm just wrong. I suppose then that everyone else who thinks the iPhone sucks is also automatically wrong? I think I'll enlist some help here, and further the quote train.

I think the iPhone sucks as a smartphone, but again that depends on whether you're using the core OS functionality or the apps. We're talking about games here, which means apps, not core OS.

You want to argue with Maddox? Be my fucking guest.

He's got enough to deal with having you hanging off his balls, I don't need to bother with him.

New age BS. Like telling me that Wii Wheel controls in Mario Kart Wii are nothing like tilting the phone to control a racer in a typical iPhone game.

I said the Wii Wheel isn't the same as a steering wheel peripheral.

But since that's your opinion, and apparently your opinion is the only one that can't be wrong, I suppose I can't argue it. We can't have someone damaging your precious ego, can we?

More like you don't have a very good memory, and it's silly to argue about what you think you remember rather than what was actually said.

Your motion sensor could have full 1:1 control... but that won't change the fact that without physical feedback, motion controls are unimmersive!

Pressing a button and feeling it click doesn't do anything for immersion.

Yet despite it being the single most important reason why people dismiss the iPhone as a gaming device, and the fact that you supposedly acknowledged it, you are still trying to argue in the iPhone's favor, in some ridiculous attempt to "convert" everyone who hasn't made an argument that's to your liking.

There's two different arguments here though. Argument 1) People are ignorant and dismiss it based on their ignorance 2) People like you thinking their ignorance is actually fact and arguing that as the actual reason for the situation.

(And yes, I know I kept saying iPhone while you keep discussing the iPod Touch. As far as this discussion is concerned, they're the same damn thing.)

No, they're not. Battery life. Huge difference between the two.

EDIT: This whole iPhone as a gaming system debate is starting to remind me of the Power Glove. I have the same response as a man considered by some to be the domination of the Internet.

Man, nerd worship is sad.

 

[thenoblitt]

because its not it was made to be a music device with gaming as a feature of the music device, that being said unlike some other people around here i think some games work very well with touch screen like fruit ninja, it may be very childish but moving your finger across the screen to cut a fruit is alot more fun then using a joystick or analog stick, but also it doesnt work well with other things such as first person shooters, the on screen sticks are not made for fast paced running and gunning the controls are not precise enough they might be someday but today they are not

 

[Miles Tormani]

And here we are. You have finally resorted to outright flaming. I hope you feel proud of yourself.

iOS does too, you just don't know about them. If you bother to read the first page you'd know where to go to find out about them.

I'm sorry. What part of Street Fighter IV being an Xbox/PS3 game do you not understand?

It's one thing to admit you fucked up, it's another to admit you fucked up and think that it applies retroactively in time. That's not how it works.

Well, excuse me for correcting myself.

The analog sticks on a control pad are not joysticks. Joysticks are gripped with your hand, not manipulated with the pad of your thumb.

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Arguing semantics is so lame.

That's just a retarded comeback.

Because the one you said here is so much better.

You're pretty stupid if you think that was turning it around.

Weren't you the one who originally said that I was simply "turning your argument around and making it look like the other side of it"? That's what I just did. Again. After all, I did originally say that your arguments can be easily turned around, in my very first post for this topic.

I was making the reference to Halo in response to FPS controls with a pad, not in response to anything you said about it.

I'm sorry, what part of PC gaming with a controller didn't you understand?

Note to everyone else reading: The following quotes were all said in response to something that was meant to be sarcastic. A sort of showing of what the person I am debating with sounds like. Therefore, the following responses will be simple contradictions. Because it makes me laugh, still.

It's not love.

"You pulled that out of your ass."

I'm not a slob, so that's not a problem. Maybe you should look at your own hygine issues rather than criticisng the product.

The fanboy resorts to flaming.

They're not, unless your hands are incredibly fat.

And more flaming.

That's with regards to the DS being inadequate, not with iOS being adequate.

Turning my words around to say the same thing, except in a way that implies I'm wrong. Isn't that what you kept complaining I was doing? Ironic.

It's funny how people make shit like this up in an argument. It's like getting accused of being liberal and conservative on the same page by different people. You're amplifying our difference in PoV to a ridiculous degree.

I will respond to this quote with another quote from you.

Nearly beaten means you still lost, and it still isn't good enough.

That sounds pretty black and white to me. It's like you're ignoring previous things you said because it's somehow irrelevant that I can take these statements and throw them back at your face.

End responses to the sarcastic paragraph taken seriously.

I think the iPhone sucks as a smartphone, but again that depends on whether you're using the core OS functionality or the apps. We're talking about games here, which means apps, not core OS.

I think the iPhone's games suck. And yes, I have played them. That said, you'll claim I pulled that out of my ass anyway.

He's got enough to deal with having you hanging off his balls, I don't need to bother with him.

Flaming. Followed up by an insinuation that I'm gay. You're really not helping your own cause here.

I said the Wii Wheel isn't the same as a steering wheel peripheral.

Neither is the iPhone's tilt functionality. Isn't that what you were talking up in the first place in lieu of analog sticks?

More like you don't have a very good memory, and it's silly to argue about what you think you remember rather than what was actually said.

Kind of like how you don't seem to remember saying that "almost winning" is still losing.

Pressing a button and feeling it click doesn't do anything for immersion.

How doesn't it? If I press a button, and feel the button being pressed at the same time an on screen action is performed by my avatar, it feels more like I'm actually doing so, rather than, say, swinging my arms in the air and the avatar following the actions as a sort of vague suggestion. See also: Twilight Princess.

There's two different arguments here though. Argument 1) People are ignorant and dismiss it based on their ignorance 2) People like you thinking their ignorance is actually fact and arguing that as the actual reason for the situation.

Argument 3) People have messed with the thing, find it to not be worth their time, and dismiss it as a result. Also, nice. More flaming. It's getting quite hot in here.

No, they're not. Battery life. Huge difference between the two.

Would you kindly point out the sentence in this argument where I ever talked about the battery life?

Man, nerd worship is sad.

So is a failure to understand the very reason I linked the video in the first place. Here. I'll point it out.

"What's wrong with this? Huh? I don't know, I thought this was okay, playing with the controller."
"What's the most important aspect to any game? Well, I don't know, being able to fucking play it."

Also, more flaming. Damn, did someone pull the sun closer to the earth or something?

 

[guardian001]

I don't refer to it as a handheld gaming system because it isn't one. It has the capabilities to be one, and developers have taken advantage of this, however that isn't the primary function of the thing. If I gave you a car with a blender in it, would you call it your blender or would you call it your car?

Just because it can do something doesn't mean that you should refer to it by that function alone. If somebody asked you what the iPod Touch/iPhone was, I doubt you'd say "Oh, that's a handheld gaming system. It can even play music and make phone calls."

 

[MrJohnson]

Just to jump on the bandwagon of analogies: Just because I can hammer in a nail with my nunchucks, doesn't make them a hammer.