Why I don't agree with calculators replacing long-hand

[JayRPG]

I'm quite good at math, I took advanced math in school and got the highest tier of marks (band 5 in Australia) but as soon as anyone asks anything math-y the first thing I do is reach for my phone.

and that is the age we live in, just about everybody is walking around all day with a calculator in their pocket (cell phones).

 

[Grach]

Well, I'm studying Biology in the University now, so we kind of have to use calculators to solve shit that would take just way too long. Because fuck solving Nerst's or Goldman's equation by hand. To save you the trip to Wikipedia, they involve solving natural logarithms. Try doing that by hand.

But for substraction and addition they're not that critical. Unless you're solving something very very large.

 

[Nouw]

I think trust also plays a big part into it. At my parent's cafe they always do the calculations on a calculator and show the customer. Sure they could use pen and paper to show the same thing but people find technology more reliable especially if they aren't good at math themselves. Plus it's just faster to use a calculator.

I share the sentiment to an extent OP but in retail, nah. And 20 minutes? Really? I know you're exaggerating but can't you help them out? I know it's their job but surely it's better than doing nothing and making an awkward situation worse.

 

[captainballsack]

Its pretty simple. There are times I've gone to a store or restaurant and the cashier has an issue ringing up something or taking off a coupon. They spend 20 minutes or more trying to figure out how to subtract the coupon amount from the non-taxed total because:

A. They don't have a calculator handy
B. They don't know how to do subtraction or percentages

This is just stupid and I blame schools for allowing kids to use calculators in place of learning math on their own. Its not a guarantee you will have a calculator when you really need one and knowing simple math is extremely handy. Sure there are folk who just aren't good at numbers, and need calculators but still I don't think they should be working in a position where they potentially need to use math without assistance.

Do you agree or disagree and why

You have to remember that not everyone has an aptitude in mathematics. There is some seriously shitty pressure on kids who aren't that great at maths, pressure I faced first hand.

I was labelled dumb from a young age because I had trouble figuring out calculations in my head. I was able to creatively solve maths problems, mind you, but the cold, hard calculations I have always had trouble with.

Point is, if I was able to use a calculator in school for the simple stuff, I could have accomplished way more in mathematics. I'm a naturally logical person, and my intelligence, which is now being applied to my philosophy studies, could have been applied and could have contributed something to the mathematical world.

Being called unintelligent from a young age has caused me some seriously shitty insecurity issues. I had to remove myself from the Catholic school system to find out that I wasn't stupid, they were just closed minded when it came to education (sorry to sound rude but, a little in the way you are). I could accomplish more with the use of a calculator while some people were better off practicing the long hand methods, but everyone is different and some kids need different procedures in order to accomplish goals in the academic world.

Some kids crumble under the pressure you wish to give them, some kids thrive; what we want is an education system that caters towards the psychological differences between children in order for every kid to reach their full potential.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

This confuses me slightly. I was taught long hand maths in primary school and the first year of highschool. After that I would use a calculator, that being the only sensible thing to do. I can still subtract and add and whatnot, although long division never got its hooks in. But in the US do students not learn maths long hand first? Because while I think not having calculators is ridiculous, it is equally ridiculous to have calculators in place of basic skills.

 

[timethyfx]

While we are at it, we should get rid of cars. I feel peoples legs aren't being tested enough, we should go back to walking. Let us also remove all written records, memory isn't what it used to be. Also, please immediately remove your computer, it is making you weak.
Soon you can discard all technology and rely solely on your 'superior' natural instincts.

This post was going to be written, but the user had an epiphany after reading the quoted post; they hurled their PC from their second story dormitory window.

This user in question went on to live in the darkest swampy parts of Louisiana as a roaming nomad-master of the wilderness. He clothes himself in nutria rat skins; wields the sharpened beak of a pelican tied to a cypress branch, and carries a shield made from a magnolia tree trunk; and he travels the swamps atop the back of his alligator mount named T-Charles.

The locals have given a name to this legend of a man, but nobody can understand it through their thick Cajun accents.

To Clive Howlitzer he sends a fresh bounty of illegally harvested alligator meat and skins; to everyone else in this thread he sends his ever-lasting thanks for showing him the light.

This automated message was possible via a message written in blood on the back of a beaver skin, that was found at the edge of the swamp.

Yet the user in question still uses too much technology, 'a sharpened beak of a pelican', 'nutria rat skins'? They really should only use their bare hands to avoid weakening themselves with technology.

 

[FoolKiller]

For all those advocating calculators, you're just wrong. A calculator is the dumbest thing in the room when it comes to math. It can only do what its told. Math is a language and should be mandatory just as much as English or any other official language in your homeland.

Not knowing what you're doing means that you have no knowledge if the calculator is giving you the right answer. The point of the calculator is to calculate quicker than you could. It doesn't replace knowing what is the correct answer.

 

[Gottesstrafe]

I hate it when people use the "I forgot my watch was n minutes slow" excuse when they show up late for an appointment and end up wasting MY valuable time. We should get rid of all clocks and watches so that people go back to using the position of the sun and moon to tell time and we're all held to the same time schedule, like back in the day when people could instinctively tell the beginning/end of the hour. I also hate it when people forget their history and other important facts and waste more of my time looking it up in books or online before they remember what they were going to say to me. We should ban books and all of the world's collective written knowledge and go back to having oral traditions, in which all information and your family genealogy was passed down orally and memorized completely lest it be forgotten. Back in the day you used to be able to instantly recite your family history whenever a knave challenged you and your family name and you threw down the gauntlet, up to and including your great-great-grand parents' names, sexual history, offspring, and distant relatives thrice removed. I find it stupid that schools let kids read books instead of making them remember everything orally, weakening their ability to instantly recall important information.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Do you agree or disagree and why

By allowing the absolute lowest common denominator to temporarily inconvenience you by having to occasionally resort to using a calculator, the wider economy can then make better use of whomever would have been required to do the job.

 

[Weaver]

As someone who did their University degree in the math department, I'd hold blood vendetta against any prof that didn't let us bring a calculator to an exam

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

As someone who did their University degree in the math department, I'd hold blood vendetta against any prof that didn't let us bring a calculator to an exam

I've taken quite a few high level math classes and, personally, I'd agree with you. While I understand denying graphing calculators, saying no calculators at all is silly when you're in a class like advanced linear algebra. The skill they are trying to impart is not basic arithmetic but rather application of substantially more advanced concepts. Why risk getting something wrong because of a minor arithmetic error?

 

[idon'tknowaboutthat]

For all those advocating calculators, you're just wrong. A calculator is the dumbest thing in the room when it comes to math. It can only do what its told. Math is a language and should be mandatory just as much as English or any other official language in your homeland.

Not knowing what you're doing means that you have no knowledge if the calculator is giving you the right answer. The point of the calculator is to calculate quicker than you could. It doesn't replace knowing what is the correct answer.

This. Oh my god, this. Anybody here who's saying that calculators are for making life easier and that making people learn how to do simple math without a calculator is akin to going back to the Stone Age is completely missing the point. It's not about restricting anybody's ability to do a job or homework or whatever, it's about making sure people have basic literacy in the language that is mathematics. It's exactly the same issue as people forgetting how to write in proper sentences because they only ever text anymore. Like most issues when it comes to public knowledge, it comes down to public schooling (in North America at least) being absolute garbage. Honestly, what of any use do kids learn in their first 7 years of school? In places like Russia or the Middle East, you can be doing advanced calculus before you're out of high school. Here, you're playing with construction paper and glue sticks.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

As someone who did their University degree in the math department, I'd hold blood vendetta against any prof that didn't let us bring a calculator to an exam

I've taken quite a few high level math classes and, personally, I'd agree with you. While I understand denying graphing calculators, saying no calculators at all is silly when you're in a class like advanced linear algebra. The skill they are trying to impart is not basic arithmetic but rather application of substantially more advanced concepts. Why risk getting something wrong because of a minor arithmetic error?

But what if you spell out BOOBS on your calculator causing you to laugh yourself into a stupor, thereby distracting the rest of the class long enough that they are unable to finish the exam? The professors just can't take that chance.

 

[Raggedstar]

I use calculators quite frequently. I can add, subtract, and multiply just fine in long-hand (except division, because fuck long division). But I usually use a calculator and in college we usually used them to the point where it was practically a requirement and needs to be within your grasp whenever you're on duty.

Why?

I'm a veterinary technician, though a similar parallel in this situation would be a veterinarian, doctor, nurse, or anyone who works in medicine. Imagine yourself in a situation where you need to give a patient a drug. Drug calculations are done with multiplication and division and nothing too complicated. You CAN do it long-hand, but there is A LOT of weight on your calculations. One misplaced decimal could mean death (0.1 mL of hydromorphone is ok for a small dog. 1 mL is for BIG dogs, like really big). While most emergency drugs have a dosing chart near them, what if something happens and you need to get a patient dosed NOW? When you're writing long-hand, you'll need to find a pencil (maybe an eraser) and paper and then quickly scribble stuff down and you might make a critical mistake. Calculators are machines and can process everything faster and more precise. Of course you can press the wrong button or do the wrong formula, but it's also faster to check your work and find your mistakes than writing out the formula again.

Here's an example of a dosing equation:
51.4kg x 2 mg/kg / 340 mg/mL
=0.3 mL to the patient
It took me longer to pull the numbers out of my ass and type them out than to do that calculation and recheck it.

And then you get to the more complicated multi-formula stuff (as in maybe 3 times the length of the one I showed, which would be something like CRI calculations) and things just get more bogged down to the point where it would just be plain inefficient.

 

[TheUsername0131]

I personally avoid using calculators except for things like trigonometry, where it's unavoidable, and very long sums like matrix multiplications, where doing it longhand is pointless and boring. I'm currently in my last year of sixth form, taking double maths and the further we go the less useful calculators become- they can't do symbolic calculus, they can't do matrix transformations (easily) and they can't do plane mappings- and it pains me to see the other people in my class reach for the calculator at the first sign of something as scary as a 2 digit multiplication. These are people who have aced the first year, yet get stumped by simple arithmetic.
That said, for somebody who is never going to use maths again, I don't see the point of making them do it longhand. It's slow, they may get it wrong and it's unlikely that anybody is going to be without a calculator very often, now that phones can do arithmetic for you.

For the past six years a series of calculators available can perform all those tasks you have just listed, and the old TI-92 model from 1995 can perform some of the functions you?ve just described.

The TI-Nspire CAS (2007) can also play gameboy and gameboy colour games in sixteen shades of grey.

 

[lunavixen]

I'm fairly good at mental maths so it's not too much trouble for me, I think what really diminishes peoples maths skills is that it's not compulsory through to year 12 (well, in Australia it's not) and the only maths options in year 11 and 12 are not simple maths, what they need to do is to put in a maths course (compulsory) and only put in everyday maths like addition, subtraction, percentages etc. and by the end of the course, the students should be proficient in that type of maths both with and without a calculator.

I'd also change the standard English curriculum to include proficiency in spelling, grammar etc. and remove a lot of the crap that's in there now, make that for the advanced English classes.

Oh, before I forget, to those people saying use the calculators on your phones etc. If you're at work you're generally not allowed to use your mobile phone unless your job entails it.

 

[Voulan]

With that logic, I also want to ban texting, IM and any form of text-based software, because it's making children less competent in grammar and spelling. When computers automatically point out spelling errors, people are less inclined to find and see them themselves.

Except that's not true. The only thing that's happening here is that it's cutting out what most people can already do for the sake of speed and convenience. If people are struggling with English (or maths, to stay on topic) then it's usually due to their just not being very good at it. And hence the use of these technologies, to keep people on the same playing field. I mean, Word is actually not great at finding mistakes every time, and calculators can only solve what they're told to. Trust me, I've always been merely average at maths, and a calculator did nothing much to help me solve calculus problems. There's no point in making people suffer because they're not that good at something.

 

[joshuaayt]

I believe this is just another example of the brain adapting to technology, not weakening due to lack of use- just as constant access to advanced search engines has had a negative affect on our memory, but improved our ability to quickly search a list for pertinent data.

We might (as a group) be less proficient when it comes to calculating numbers, but I'm willing to bet we're getting better at applying the results. You don't just get stupid because you aren't doing something unnecessary- you're still thinking, the focus is just skewed.

 

[Adventurer2626]

I share that frustration. While I understand a lot of people have difficulty making numbers do the tango in their head, it's becoming an increasingly important skill in civilization. Management. Numbers, organization, researching, data mining, communication. We used to be all about procuring resources, protecting them, and turning them into an end product. You built civilization with your hands. Your blood, sweat and tears. Managers used to be (and still are depending whom you ask) fat, spoiled pricks that had everything physical done for them and neglected their only job, which was to lead and get people to cooperate. Hence all the monarchies that took a dirt nap when people finally got fed up. It's because of this stigma and the general lack of appreciation that no one wants to do it. No one wants the thankless job of book keeping and coercing concerted effort of people that don't want to even share the same air with one another because each thinks the other dresses funny or worships a different sports team. Everyone wants the glory of making the product themselves. It's gratifying and you get to see progress. However, because of the sheer amount of people alive we need better infrastructure. We need people holding it together. We need those "evil dictators" of managers and those "greedy" accountants. Don't like how something is run? Do it better. Step up. Or at least give them helpful feedback. The tools and skills to keeping a successful, healthy society have changed. This is all the prelude and the growing pains of our transition to a global civilization.

One little caveat. While it's good to know information and have skills like mental mathematics, it's just not possible for any one person to know all there is to running things anymore. We can't hold all of the medical, scientific, technological and cultural advances in one brain anymore. Not if you expect the person to function and not go insane. It's going to be more important soon if it isn't already to know how to find information or manipulate it than to have it memorized. That's why we have specialized professions. That's why we have technologies to aid us. They can't do everything for you and even if they did, what purpose would you have in life with nothing to do or work for? They are tools in our toolbox for building a bigger and better world. It's not cheating or weak to use them if they get you to where you want and save you time and energy to do other things. Just don't expect them to hammer, saw or calculate by themselves. Every tool must have a hand to wield it.

 

[salfiert]

the problem is at least partially to do with the stupid attitude so many people parrot "ugh I hate math I'll never have to use it out of school" I've heard it from kids, I've heard it from parents, I even once heard it from a math teacher. when are you gonna have to use math, every frickin day for so many important things, even if you work at mcdonalds you'll have to use basic math to give change, any parent who ever says "don't worry about math you'll never use it out of school" should be slapped, people need to stop pretending math is some abstract thing only scientists use, and start teaching it to kids properly