Why I don't agree with calculators replacing long-hand

[uchytjes]

Unless they are working with decimal places beyond the hundredths and it is bigger than 1000, then a calculator shouldn't be necessary. I'm all for using computers to expedite the math process (and, in fact, believe that kids should be taught to use computers in tandem with problems), but if you don't know simple arithmetic you probably shouldn't be working with money.

BUT. In defense of the cashiers, I must say that any coupon, unless it has a scannable barcode, will always add on at least another minute to the process. Its not because they can't do math, its because the coupon interrupts the thinking process and forces the person's mind to change tracks from "okay, this is the total" to "I need to do this and this and then this and finally this is the total before tax, add on the tax and this is the real total."

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

the problem is at least partially to do with the stupid attitude so many people parrot "ugh I hate math I'll never have to use it out of school" I've heard it from kids, I've heard it from parents, I even once heard it from a math teacher. when are you gonna have to use math, every frickin day for so many important things, even if you work at mcdonalds you'll have to use basic math to give change, any parent who ever says "don't worry about math you'll never use it out of school" should be slapped, people need to stop pretending math is some abstract thing only scientists use, and start teaching it to kids properly

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use anything more complicated than division outside of college. The majority of people will never need to know calculus, or any math higher than 5th grade algebra. So yes, while you do use math for tons of important things every day, it's not very high level math, and for the vast majority of the population, they'll never need to remember any of the math they learned in middle school, high school, or college.

Now, do you know which math people are usually talking about when they say they hate math? You guessed it, the math they learned in middle school, high school, and college. The complicated, abstract math that they'll never need in their day to day lives. I'd say it's pretty fair for them to resent having to waste their time learning it when it's utterly useless to them.

It really would be better if instead of forcing everyone to learn geometry, schools taught compulsory accounting instead, and geometry was an elective.

 

[Yopaz]

What schools allow the use of calculators? Admittedly, I've been out of school for a while, but the only time we were allowed to use them was when we were doing tangents and that other stuff. And the week where we were taught to use calculators in middle school.

I haven't gone to a single school that doesn't allow it. We still have to show our work and we still need to be able to calculate things, but it is considered pointless if we can subtract, divide, multiply or add when we can't use formulas.

I think this is good actually. It's useless to learn maths if we put too much of a focus on the mechanical things that any calculator can do faster and more accurate than any human. What's important is to actually be able to prove the maths, to use it. If you pick 4 cards, what is the probability of getting two queens? A calculator won't give you the answer, but it will ease the mechanical process of doing the calculations. A calculator can make the best looking graphs, a calculator can solve for X, but a calculator can never help you understand. It might be useful as a help, but if you're learning maths in a way that makes a calculator the source of all answers then you're learning it incorrectly.

OT: Sure, we can blame schools for letting kids use calculators, but as I have said, maths is more than just the mechanics anymore. I took my final exam in high school maths a few years ago and that exam was divided into two parts. For the first two hours you weren't allowed to use any kind of appliances that wasn't use to write with. Pen and compass (in case of geometry). Then for the next 3 hours we were allowed to use calculator, computer (no internet) and the text book. You know what part was hardest of those two? Part two by far.

Part 1 was general algebra, geometry, exponentials, derivations and a whole lot of do this, find X find Y. Part 2 was explain X, device a proof for Y, make a graph that shows Z. Harder maths by far. That's how maths should be. In your case of the cashiers not knowing their percentages or their subtractions I find it silly that your technology hasn't come far enough to actually do that at the cash register automatically. Now I grew up in the age of calculators and I don't have any problems doing that kind of things for the most part, but I have practised doing quick calculations in my head and I can do pretty much any of that stuff if you give me pen and paper and some time. Now as we all know, anecdotes don't prove anything so I won't go any deeper into this..

The thing is, people have always had problems with maths, their grades suffer because they are having problems understanding it. Lots of people fail maths and decides to give up on higher education. Guess what kind of jobs they end up in...

 

[lacktheknack]

Its pretty simple. There are times I've gone to a store or restaurant and the cashier has an issue ringing up something or taking off a coupon. They spend 20 minutes or more trying to figure out how to subtract the coupon amount from the non-taxed total because:

A. They don't have a calculator handy
B. They don't know how to do subtraction or percentages

This is just stupid and I blame schools for allowing kids to use calculators in place of learning math on their own. Its not a guarantee you will have a calculator when you really need one and knowing simple math is extremely handy. Sure there are folk who just aren't good at numbers, and need calculators but still I don't think they should be working in a position where they potentially need to use math without assistance.

Do you agree or disagree and why

Its pretty simple. There are times I've gone to a store or restaurant and the cashier has an issue ringing up something or taking off a coupon. They spend 20 minutes or more trying to figure out how to subtract the coupon amount from the non-taxed total because:

They spend 20 minutes or more trying to figure out how to subtract the coupon amount from the non-taxed total because:

20 minutes

wat

OT: At my level of math, I don't have the time to derive this and subtract that so I can multiply the other thing's logarithm. In elementary, though, I was made to do an entire math unit on "How To Do Simple Math Faster Than A Calculator".

You're telling me this isn't a standard?

Whelp. One more reason to homeschool my kids.

 

[lacktheknack]

the problem is at least partially to do with the stupid attitude so many people parrot "ugh I hate math I'll never have to use it out of school" I've heard it from kids, I've heard it from parents, I even once heard it from a math teacher. when are you gonna have to use math, every frickin day for so many important things, even if you work at mcdonalds you'll have to use basic math to give change, any parent who ever says "don't worry about math you'll never use it out of school" should be slapped, people need to stop pretending math is some abstract thing only scientists use, and start teaching it to kids properly

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use anything more complicated than division outside of college. The majority of people will never need to know calculus, or any math higher than 5th grade algebra. So yes, while you do use math for tons of important things every day, it's not very high level math, and for the vast majority of the population, they'll never need to remember any of the math they learned in middle school, high school, or college.

Now, do you know which math people are usually talking about when they say they hate math? You guessed it, the math they learned in middle school, high school, and college. The complicated, abstract math that they'll never need in their day to day lives. I'd say it's pretty fair for them to resent having to waste their time learning it when it's utterly useless to them.

It really would be better if instead of forcing everyone to learn geometry, schools taught compulsory accounting instead, and geometry was an elective.

This is funny, because accounting is RIDDLED with logarithms, which are complex and somewhat abstract and are based on a lot of middle-school (and some high school) concepts.

 

[Xdeser2]

I half agree with you: there always needs to be people who know how to do it the old fashioned way. this goes for every profession by the way.

However for Math that will NEVER be me. Hell, ask me to do high school algebra and my brain scurries away like it just saw Cthulhu.

 

[AngloDoom]

I do maths tests in my free time, because I'm the type of person who constantly feels shit unless I'm better at everything than everyone I know. Even as I feel myself becoming better at maths (though I certainly wouldn't say I'm 'good' at it yet) I still use a calculator.

Why? Because it's often faster, and often more likely to be correct. Not using a calculator is like trying to remember all the numbers on your phone - pretty handy is very particular situations, but a massive pain in the arse that's bound to have the occasional silly slip up otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I live in awe of people who can do things in their head I can't even write on a calculator, but when it comes to totalling the bill after a night out, and I've had a few drinks, I like to have Mr. Calculator on hand to prove to everyone that, no, that wasn't a mistake and, yes, you do owe me £15.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

the problem is at least partially to do with the stupid attitude so many people parrot "ugh I hate math I'll never have to use it out of school" I've heard it from kids, I've heard it from parents, I even once heard it from a math teacher. when are you gonna have to use math, every frickin day for so many important things, even if you work at mcdonalds you'll have to use basic math to give change, any parent who ever says "don't worry about math you'll never use it out of school" should be slapped, people need to stop pretending math is some abstract thing only scientists use, and start teaching it to kids properly

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use anything more complicated than division outside of college. The majority of people will never need to know calculus, or any math higher than 5th grade algebra. So yes, while you do use math for tons of important things every day, it's not very high level math, and for the vast majority of the population, they'll never need to remember any of the math they learned in middle school, high school, or college.

Now, do you know which math people are usually talking about when they say they hate math? You guessed it, the math they learned in middle school, high school, and college. The complicated, abstract math that they'll never need in their day to day lives. I'd say it's pretty fair for them to resent having to waste their time learning it when it's utterly useless to them.

It really would be better if instead of forcing everyone to learn geometry, schools taught compulsory accounting instead, and geometry was an elective.

This is funny, because accounting is RIDDLED with logarithms, which are complex and somewhat abstract and are based on a lot of middle-school (and some high school) concepts.

Really? I learned logs as a part of basic algebra in 6th grade. Never realized it was supposed to be high level stuff.

 

[teisjm]

Seeing as calculators are everywhere in phones, even old non-smart phones (are they dumb-phones?) i wouldn't find it neccecery to learn to to math without it, save the kind i'd be able to pull off i my head.

If i'd need to find pen and paper to do it without a calculator, it's not really worth it.
That beeing said, if it's something i can pull off in my head, i prefer to do it that way.
Also, i find lots of stuff are easier on paper, than on a calculator, as i mainly need to write down numbers for later use, so i don't have to float several different numbers in my head while calculating other numbers. That can break my concentration as well as someone speaking out numbers while i do math in my head.

When i was in school, I prefered not to use the calculator for stuff that could be done without it, because i knew i wouldn't learn anything from learning a path to make the calculator do my math, instead of learning what it was i made the calculator do.

Today i don't really do a lot of complicaed math, so the calculator really only comes in, when i can't be bothered to multiply/divide larger numbers in my head.

I guess calculators should be used in school for stuff thats undoable without them, and for saving time while doing calculations that the students are already comfortable doing without a calculator.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

A retort:


Long hand may be good, but a small error in a large calculation can completely fuck up the answer, whereas with calculators, the calculation can be repeated quicker to check for errors.

Less time spent is the only real advantage in using a calculator in simple calculations(non-quadratic), but less time spent allows for a more sound answer, as it can be checked quicker and prevents confirmation bias(as in, you already did the calculation, when doing it again, you can't help but think of the original one, and you will think that it's already correct as it is, so it's harder to proof-check, whereas w/ calculators, mechanical error means that you don't have any attachment to the method of calculation itself, so you are less prone to confirmation bias).

Basically, because calculators can fuck up, we are more suspicious of the given answer, and we can repeat the calculation without bias, and be less trusting of a given answer.

 

[Vegosiux]

Doing the numbers in my head is much more fun than doing them with a calculator. And often it takes me less time than getting the numbers into my phone would.

Also, first thing when I take over the world is sneak into people's houses and replace all their calculators with wrongulators (yes, that's a thing).

 

[Evilpigeon]

The way tech is going, there's less and less need to actually know specific things. All you need is enough knowledge to have a good idea of what you're looking for as well as the ability to digest that information quickly. Being able to do numbers in your head is unnecessary rote learning. As others have said, given how ubitquitous smartphones are, most people have a calculator to hand most of the time.

I quite like doing maths by hand but it's effectively a useless skill.

 

[Fractral]

I personally avoid using calculators except for things like trigonometry, where it's unavoidable, and very long sums like matrix multiplications, where doing it longhand is pointless and boring. I'm currently in my last year of sixth form, taking double maths and the further we go the less useful calculators become- they can't do symbolic calculus, they can't do matrix transformations (easily) and they can't do plane mappings- and it pains me to see the other people in my class reach for the calculator at the first sign of something as scary as a 2 digit multiplication. These are people who have aced the first year, yet get stumped by simple arithmetic.
That said, for somebody who is never going to use maths again, I don't see the point of making them do it longhand. It's slow, they may get it wrong and it's unlikely that anybody is going to be without a calculator very often, now that phones can do arithmetic for you.

For the past six years a series of calculators available can perform all those tasks you have just listed, and the old TI-92 model from 1995 can perform some of the functions you?ve just described.

The TI-Nspire CAS (2007) can also play gameboy and gameboy colour games in sixteen shades of grey.

Mmm, really? We're not allowed to use anything like that in exams or school. I stand corrected, though. Can calculators prove things yet, e.g by induction?

 

[Plinglebob]

Personally, while I've nothing against calculators and will use them when necessary, I'd much rather do maths in my head and find it slightly odd that people seem perfectly happy (some even seem proud at times) with the idea they're bad at it. I've always seen calculators (at least in "Low level" maths) as the equivalent of dictionaries. Useful for checking you've got something right, but not to be dragged out for every little thing. Also, unless you have a calculator that keeps a display of what you put in, you still make errors.

 

[Syzygy23]

Its pretty simple. There are times I've gone to a store or restaurant and the cashier has an issue ringing up something or taking off a coupon. They spend 20 minutes or more trying to figure out how to subtract the coupon amount from the non-taxed total because:

A. They don't have a calculator handy
B. They don't know how to do subtraction or percentages

This is just stupid and I blame schools for allowing kids to use calculators in place of learning math on their own. Its not a guarantee you will have a calculator when you really need one and knowing simple math is extremely handy. Sure there are folk who just aren't good at numbers, and need calculators but still I don't think they should be working in a position where they potentially need to use math without assistance.

Do you agree or disagree and why

Disagree, I've never had too many problems with math. In junior high I was even taken out of math class to work on algebra while everyone else was doing pre-algebra.

Yet I have incredible trouble doing any sort of mental calculation that involve double or triple digit numbers. My short term memory is just too shitty to keep track of the steps involved in doing those calculations. It's not that I can't do it without a slip of paper or a calculator, it just helps keep track of my information.

 

[DSK-]

I'll be perfectly honest: I am (still) of the opinion that calculators, unless specifically told to use one, are "cheating". This is the mindset I had 10 years ago when I was still at school.

I'm a person who has the innate mathematical ability of a cornflake, and perhaps even suffer from dyscalculia (I can't prove it, long history of trying though).


Random rambling, sorry but this pisses me off.

Spoiler

About 5 months back I decided that because I couldn't get a job anywhere I would apply to the Royal Air Force. I did my Airman Selection Test (AST) and did poorly, particularly on the maths part where I answered a staggering two questions out of 21 in 4 minutes. I just completely blanked out and there was nothing I could do about it. The other sections such as Mechanical Comprehension were things I hadn't been taught in school etc etc.

So I can't complain, though it pissed me off that my degrees had no bearing on matter of joining in an ICT Technician role, but fair enough, right?

No. Why? Because during your pre-joining phase you have to partake in something akin to "Key Skills" English and Mathematics called "Functional Skills". The mathematics test is Functional Skills Level 2, you are allowed to use a calculator and you get 2 hours and 30 minutes for it. Honestly I was gob smacked. If you can do well in the 4 minute test then the FS test will be piss-fucking-easy.


Anywho, last month, because I was so disgusted with my AST score/ability I signed up for a Functional Skills Mathematics part-time course while I try and find a job. When I was being tested to see what my level was, I refused to use a calculator unless the question told me to do so and when the examiner looked at my test she was gobsmacked and seemed downright annoyed that I hadn't, particularly when I stated I thought it was "cheating" myself. So far the lessons have been pretty easy, but that's probably because for my AST I was studying from a GCSE maths book for 2 and a half months.

But what is the kicker out of all of this? This level 1 Functional Skills Maths test is only 1 hour and 30 mins. Even the level 2 at my college is 1 hour and 30 mins. It just annoys me, quite frankly.

In short, I completely agree that using calculators all the time, willy-nilly can have a negative effect on learning. However, with the likes of myself being unable to get calculations right consistently and making silly, stupid and downright retarded mistakes, using calculators to off-load the work of actually doing the sum whilst fully understanding what operators and so on to use is a boon. Do I personally agree with it? Absolutely not. But I don't particularly have a choice when I have to re-teach myself how to divide every few weeks.

This is just my opinion/experience.

 

[lacktheknack]

the problem is at least partially to do with the stupid attitude so many people parrot "ugh I hate math I'll never have to use it out of school" I've heard it from kids, I've heard it from parents, I even once heard it from a math teacher. when are you gonna have to use math, every frickin day for so many important things, even if you work at mcdonalds you'll have to use basic math to give change, any parent who ever says "don't worry about math you'll never use it out of school" should be slapped, people need to stop pretending math is some abstract thing only scientists use, and start teaching it to kids properly

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use anything more complicated than division outside of college. The majority of people will never need to know calculus, or any math higher than 5th grade algebra. So yes, while you do use math for tons of important things every day, it's not very high level math, and for the vast majority of the population, they'll never need to remember any of the math they learned in middle school, high school, or college.

Now, do you know which math people are usually talking about when they say they hate math? You guessed it, the math they learned in middle school, high school, and college. The complicated, abstract math that they'll never need in their day to day lives. I'd say it's pretty fair for them to resent having to waste their time learning it when it's utterly useless to them.

It really would be better if instead of forcing everyone to learn geometry, schools taught compulsory accounting instead, and geometry was an elective.

This is funny, because accounting is RIDDLED with logarithms, which are complex and somewhat abstract and are based on a lot of middle-school (and some high school) concepts.

Really? I learned logs as a part of basic algebra in 6th grade. Never realized it was supposed to be high level stuff.

It took us until 11th grade to even touch them.

Of course, we then immediately started multiplying/dividing them and using them in exponents, so maybe that's the difference.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I haven't had the need to do anything beyond basic arithmetic in years, aside from one complicated math issue related to modeling a machine with a rotating piston for a video game properly animatable. I never got past algebra in high school, barely remember any of it, and didn't really understand it at the time. My math teachers were mostly miserable assholes, and I don't even like thinking about it. I see no problem with breaking out a calculator for problems that would take more than 30 seconds or so to solve, as it saves time.

However, I do write everything freehand in cursive, in the hopes of someday trolling some kid who never learned it. Apparently they don't teach that anymore.

 

[DugMachine]

I can do simple math in my head like basic division, multiplication etc but if you need percentages and stuff you best believe I'm busting out my calculator. I left math a long time ago as I hate the subject and just can't wrap my head around it. Sorry if it inconveniences you but I'm using my calculator.