Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout

[IamLEAM1983]

Yeeeaaah...

I just can't agree with you, OP. Yes, civilization has to start from the bottom up, but does that justify Caesar's copying of a civilization that's known as much for its legal system as for its barbarism and overall decadence? I don't really adhere to the idea that slavery is "necessary" in any shape or form, not when paid labour can do the exact same thing. If you can't pay with currency, then pay with food or lodging or decent living conditions - but offer at least *some* kind of recompense.

And honestly, you're okay with a group of misogynists and glorified marauders who rape, pillage, crucify and decapitate opposition in their wake?

That's why I have some respect for the NCR. It might be corrupt, it might be two-faced, but it's a system that's conceived from the ground up in order to be democratic. With some work, it might even be possible for it to actually *be* democratic.

I never could side with House, largely because while I respect the person he's a send-off of (Howard Hughes), he really is past his prime. I was worried that working through Securitrons and the other Families in the Strip would disconnect him from the actual fragility of his position. If he makes a mistake, in any shape or form, it's all on him and he won't be able to face the consequences. He likes to project an air of control and almost machine-like infallibility, but he's still pretty damned fallible.

Plus, if you consider what physical state he's in - he's past his prime, and that's an understatement. Unplugging him felt more like a mercy killing to me. It also felt justified, seeing as the initially fearsome Benny proved to be just some suit-wearing toady House directed around like he directs everyone he meets. I wasn't a fan of being considered like a tool to be used.

As for Yes Man, that's basically the route any self-serving characters could take. It doesn't seem to be an altogether negative option, but it doesn't promise a lot of growth or change in the Mojave. All it really does is end with you in power.

 

[AnarchistFish]

Funny reading people's justifications for joining certain factions. I joined Caesar's Legion cos I was sick of playing the good guy like in other games and wanted to fuck things up psycho style. Ended up going with Yes Man in the end anyway, though.

 

[Muspelheim]

The NCR presented themselves to me by just minding their own business, and at least having good intentions towards an isolated community in trouble. They did help them out once I buttered up the deal for them. They're reasonable.

The Caesar's Legion presented themselves to me by burning an entire town down and crucifying people just 'cuz they thought they were "degenerate". And then telling me to spread the word, like a paperboy or something.

Yeah, I honestly prefer the NCR, they're not exactly good guys, but they're not cruel brutes for the sake of it. And honestly, the NCR tries to be something better. It doesn't succeed in everything, but at least it tries to be a functional, democratic nation, rebuilding and redeveloping the world. It might not be very fun for Pete McDusteater when they take over his community without asking and make him pay taxes, but on the other hand, they are the ones who can produce things, like power and water.

And above all, what is the Legion going to do once they've run out of neighbouring factions to destroy? Build an armada and sail to china? Their society seems unlikely to progress any further than beating people weaker than them up, once they're out of things to take by force, they'll have nothing left.

The Legion -is- a very interesting faction, but I pretty much file them together with the Fiends and other Wasteland trash in my mind. Usually ending up in the sight of my hunting rifle. Aligning myself with the Legion would be a bit like aligning myself with the Cazadores or something.

EDIT: When I think of it, Sneering Imperialist is probably the best way to describe how I usually play in games like this. Anything that seems reasonably orderly and developing got my support. Like a rather mild fascist.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

i sided with the legion because i wanted to experience that side of the story. and i really dont see how you can see the legion as good guys just because their territory is "safer", it may be safer than the mojave is during NV because they, and the ncr are FIGHTING over it.

also you really think that the bittersprings massacre is really enough justification to side with the legion? do boone's side missions and you'll learn all about who was responsible for bittersprings.

and even if the ncr did decide to completely eradicate this one tribe WHO ARE NOTORIOUS RAIDERS BTW, thats not enough for me to side with the legion, no matter how "safe" their territory is.

to quote good ol' Ben Franklin, "those who would sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither."

 

[Legion]

Rapists, murderers and slavers. They may have other decent methods, but those three facts mean that I could never side with them without role-playing a very bad character.

NCR is the best for the wasteland if you go by the endings (and make the right choices). It's the only one where you can have all of the factions except Caesar's Legion and House all united and living in peace. The only sacrifice made really is the freedom you'd get from the 'Independent' option.

 

[Xanex]

I'll go with what the supermutant Marcus has to say when asked about the Legion.

"The Legion follows Caesar, not Caesar's Ideals. When Caesar dies the Legion will fall apart. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it."- Marcus

 

[loc978]

There are no cut-and-dried "good guys" in the Fallout universe. Never have been... but there are cut-and-dried "bad guys", and Caesar's Legion are exactly that. The OP's whole argument seems to be that the greatest of all available evils is preferable to inefficiency.

Have fun with being pro-fascist, OP (not that I think you are in real life... but that's exactly what the arguments you made here are).

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Rapists, murderers and slavers. They may have other decent methods, but those three facts mean that I could never side with them without role-playing a very bad character.

This, pretty much. Being a woman it always bothers me how many are ready to overlook the extreme cruelty of Caesar's Legion towards a majority of its' subjects in favor of entitling a few. The fact that women are treated as commodities (as is any man and child not being a part of the legions fighting force) should in and of itself be enough to deter any sane person from ever thinking that the Legion has enough redeeming qualities to make them people you'd want to side with.

 

[Bloodtrozorx]

I ended up doing each ending with different characters and I can see the OP's points but I used my Legion character as an excuse to be a murdering bloodthirsty bastard. I would have rather sided with the Brotherhood overall. The Brotherhood is the only faction I even liked and I hated killing them in my Legion playthrough but Caesar demanded it.

 

[lovest harding]

What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people.

That's not entirely true. The Khan thing was a mess, but they don't wipe out every city/group that doesn't agree with them. Take a look at Primm. Not to say that that's a sign of how great there are (seeing as how they didn't even seem to have the balls the save it from Powder Gangers even thought the Powder Gangers are their fault) just that 'mark you as hostile and wipe you out' is an unfair characterization. Or look at what happened in Freeside. Even when they assumed the Kings had severely beaten their liaison sent to discuss helping the people of Freeside, they didn't immediately claim Freeside and the Kings their enemy. They just ended their plans to help Freeside and instead handed out food to NCR citizens.
They do absorb every society they can, though, but from what I can see they don't change it as much as the Legion does (Legion absorbs a society and forces it to follow its beliefs and making free people slaves).
And of course a society with one leader is going to run more efficiently and effectively than the bureaucratic mess the NCR is (instead of improving on American politics, they just brought them back which is hardly the smartest move).

I love me some Followers of the Apocalypse myself. They have their problems (similar to NCR they tend to stretch themselves thin, but that's just because they don't have the greatest stockpile of resources). That's why I almost always join them. Plus it doesn't hurt that their original leader/founder had a green mohawk. She wants to help people and she's kickass? Sign me up.
I wish they'd be a bit more proactive about new technology though. Simply harvesting old tech isn't going to last forever.
I also think the Brotherhood of Steel has substantial potential (if they follow Veronica's ideals, I mean). Seeing as how they were founded to prevent another great war. They go about it wrong, but there's potential in that ideal.

 

[Genocidicles]

House is the best of the lot IMO. He's probably the smartest man alive, so if anyone can pull humanity out of their new dark age, it's him.

It'd probably be best if he worked with the NCR, but as that isn't an option (it was originally, but was cut for some reason) he's probably the best to side with.

Although my favourite playthroughs have been when I sided with the Legion. I generally play evil assholes when I get the chance, so it was great to get a main questline where I did just that, instead of rubbish like Fallout 3 where you're practically a saint right until the last mintute when you can choose to go evil for the lulz.

 

[lovest harding]

Rapists, murderers and slavers. They may have other decent methods, but those three facts mean that I could never side with them without role-playing a very bad character.

This, pretty much. Being a woman it always bothers me how many are ready to overlook the extreme cruelty of Caesar's Legion towards a majority of its' subjects in favor of entitling a few. The fact that women are treated as commodities (as is any man and child not being a part of the legions fighting force) should in and of itself be enough to deter any sane person from ever thinking that the Legion has enough redeeming qualities to make them people you'd want to side with.

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.
That's why I think a lot of people can overlook it.
You also have to look at it as a game world. Slavery is a different beast in Fallout because of how the world works (not to say that I agree with it even in the game world, just that there are more justifications, whether right or wrong, to be had for slavery in Fallout than in real life).

 

[Terminal Blue]

snip

I totally agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say they're a missed story opportunity because they're not even terribly interesting. There's no depth, there's no big ideals. They really are exactly what they appear to be, straight up fascists building a militarized society based on a 20th century re-imagining of a social system which noone involved in the Legion is smart enough to understand (no, not even Ceasar, the guy is a tinpot dictator on a power trip).

And you know what, the Enclave did that better. The super mutant army of the master did it so much better. Those groups had a plan, they had big ideas and they had genuine reasons for what they were doing, that's what made them effective villains. The legion had none of these things, just a bunch of tribals trying to build an authoritarian dictatorship without the technology or infrastructure to support it. Guess how well that's going to end?

I was really disappointed with Ceasars legion. There are so many things about the faction which have the potential to be interesting, particularly the way it was founded.. I mean think about it, missionary heads out into the untamed wilderness to spread civilization and ends up going native. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Spoiler

..and yet in the end it's all so completely shallow that it's actually a bit depressing.

 

[felbot]

funny thing is i actually made a female character and joined the legion to see if it where a quest for it, there wasnt and you where actually not capable of going in the arena, i was disappointed.

anyway, me personally? absolutely hate the legion, i kill them whenever i can, even got some centurion armor early on thanks to it, unfortunately the assassin squads do get annoying sometimes, and even hard when you're just out in the field.

i really enjoy the fact that we have so many fallout threads.

 

[KingHodor]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

 

[Jinjer]

I'll never side with the Legion since I'm a woman and I always roleplay as a female when given the option. Siding with the guys who see women as slaves only? Yeah, no.

I never actually finished NV, I just got bored and stormed Legion HQ for kicks. After that, didn't feel like having much of a point. I may get back to it sometime.

 

[Saviordd1]

Yes yes, very convincing, grey and grey and bad governing on both sides.

But this is what it comes down to, do I support a bloated but well meaning retarded government?

Or do I support a bunch of sociopathic, misogynistic, homophobic hypocritical dickwads?

That choice was VERY easy.

Are you referring to Fallout or the upcoming US federal election?

Well played

 

[lovest harding]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

That is also anecdotal (as we don't witness them turning on their friends in game). What I'm saying is that the anecdotes aren't as effective as actually showing them treating their friends/allies/own people in such a deplorable way. There's a difference between knowing and witnessing. I know that if I jump into traffic I will get hurt, but seeing someone do it will have a huge impact on me. That's why I feel there is leeway in forgiving people for siding with the Legion. Because unless you take specific side quests/talking to the right people (the Khan side quest to change leadership/side with the NCR, where your example comes from, or talking to Jimmy), you just don't know that's how the Legion works. If all people know is that people don't like them and that they're slavers (by taking the NCRs side or going into in depth discussions/side quests with followers), it's hard to just know that the Legion isn't just like the Slaver group from the first or second game (who weren't great people, but they did nothing close to the atrocities of the Legion).
Go talk to Caesar. He's a flawed guy with his head in a pretty strange head space. I'm not saying he'll change your opinion of the Legion (it didn't change mine), but I think it gives some insight into why there are people who side with the Legion.
And let's face it. There are sane people when it comes to the Fallout world who feel slavery/dictatorship is a necessary evil (considering limited resources, sheer need to keep masses under control).
I'm not saying the Legion isn't horrible, in fact, I agree with your point on them being a non-option for me (I might complete their quest line for the achievements at some point). But you can't discount an opinion as insane when there are lots of reasons a sane person might side with the Legion (they appear to be the most solid society in the game, whether true or not; they know how to effectively defend their allies as Cass says; without following certain sidequests they simply don't seem as controlling/overpowering as they are; there's even an instant of confusion when a gay soldier in the NCR tells the player if the PC has the Confirmed Bachelor perk that the Legion is okay with gay relationships and without talking to Jimmy the player wouldn't know otherwise).

When all the options are flawed, its easier to make justifications for one side. I applaud Obsidian for doing that.

I think I may be muddling my point. Sorry for that.
All I'm saying is that all the evidence for how truly psychopathic the Legion is is anecdotal (meaning the evidence has less impact on the player) and requires the player finding it. That makes saying that all the people who choose the Legion aren't sane unrealistic as there are people who are just ignorant of the reality of the Legion and people who find justifications for the Legion's actions according to the Fallout world.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

snip

I totally agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say they're a missed story opportunity because they're not even terribly interesting. There's no depth, there's no big ideals. They really are exactly what they appear to be, straight up fascists building a militarized society based on a 20th century re-imagining of a social system which noone involved in the Legion is smart enough to understand (no, not even Ceasar, the guy is a tinpot dictator on a power trip).

And you know what, the Enclave did that better. The super mutant army of the master did it so much better. Those groups had a plan, they had big ideas and they had genuine reasons for what they were doing, that's what made them effective villains. The legion had none of these things, just a bunch of tribals trying to build an authoritarian dictatorship without the technology or infrastructure to support it. Guess how well that's going to end?

I was really disappointed with Ceasars legion. There are so many things about the faction which have the potential to be interesting, particularly the way it was founded.. I mean think about it, missionary heads out into the untamed wilderness to spread civilization and ends up going native. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Spoiler

..and yet in the end it's all so completely shallow that it's actually a bit depressing.

To be fair, I think part of the deal with the legion from a meta perspective is that they could potentially (if you can get past all the atrocities they commit) be the most stable faction in the short term but would be atrocious in the long term. Just think about Caesar's own monologue about how he inspires distrust towards science and technology in the Legion, as a means of preserving his own power.

The game itself even acknowledges that the Legion only follows Caesar because of his personal charisma and that it likely won't last for after his demise. It also acknowledges that just about ever legionnaire apart from Caesar has no clue about the social or political ramifications of the Legion, but are mostly various forms of raiders, tribals and opportunists that have taken the chance to go on the largest pillaging spree since the Great War. The game even implies that Caesar himself doesn't really care about what Rome was like or what the wider consequences of his actions are in the long term as long as he gets his power and his legacy.

When compared to the NCR however, the Legion really gets a lot of faux-depth though. Despite all the negative things the game tells you about the Legion, it still tries to find a few good things to say about it. That all the good things basically amount to "repressive, militarized police state" should be pretty obvious to just about anyone who spends some time talking to NPCs about the various factions.

I wasn't disappointed with the Legion per se, but they definitely aren't as "gray" as some people like to pretend. They are squarely in the black corner and no amount of corruption, excessive bureaucracy and lack of political ambition from the NCR can ever put them on the same level as the faction that rapes, pillages and plunders for kicks (and because it runs a very real risk of dissolving into bitter civil war if it doesn't constantly face an external enemy).

I think this turned out a little longer then I expected...

 

[Icehearted]

Slavery is one of those things that nearly always flips my switch, in games or movies, or real life, I'm actually outraged by it pretty much right away. Big government is one thing, but getting things right and micromanagement can make even something as bloated as the NCR work, despite it's corruption. I generally side with altruism (go ahead, hate) so obviously slavers and rapists aren't going to win me over, not to mention the man himself coming off as a pompous wad of dick from the start, it didn't command respect, it compelled me to treachery (oddly treason is one of those other things that instantly piss me off).

I would have loved more ambiguity when it came to moral conflicts when deciding between the two, but the Legion really seemed designed to be disliked, so dislike them i shall.

Yes yes, very convincing, grey and grey and bad governing on both sides.

But this is what it comes down to, do I support a bloated but well meaning retarded government?

Or do I support a bunch of sociopathic, misogynistic, homophobic hypocritical dickwads?

That choice was VERY easy.

Oh how I chuckled.