Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout

[Korten12]

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This, plus isn't California like really civilized now? Like they actually have cities there and such?

 

[Terminal Blue]

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To be fair, I'm not claiming they're disappointing as video game antagonists. I mean, this is the only medium where it would be acceptable to unironically use evil space-nazis with comedy British accents.

But I'm disappointed because I really don't think they live up to any of the previous Fallout villains, all of whom had at least one or two big ideas to back them up.. or at least something cool going for them.

Like I said, they all had a purpose which made sense. The master wanted to eliminate the physical, intellectual and moral weaknesses of humanity and create a new race who could survive and rebuild in the hardship of the post-apocalyptic world. The Enclave wanted to eliminate all mutated humans so that they could emerge from their bunkers and rebuild their own distorted image of the American dream. In both cases, you can see clearly why they're doing it and how most of their actions feed into that ultimate goal.

Ceasar's legion have very little reasoning behind anything they do beyond "Ceasar is a dick". Why are they so hostile to women? I dunno, apparently Ceasar had mummy issues. Why do they punish homosexuality with the death penalty? I dunno, it kind of makes sense in that they're obviously an extremely homosocial society, but they have no religious or practical reason. Why Rome? Never really explained, particularly since the resemblance is entirely superficial.

I mean, now I think about it, everything "deep" or thoughtful about Ceasar's character is kind of a crib of James Earl Jones' character in Conan the Barbarian, and when you're managing to be more shallow than that movie it's probably time to quit.

 

[ProtoChimp]

House? Mummy.

?? I dont get it.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

this is what i love about this game, everyone can choose and people choose things for tons of things, i never really saw the NCR as the good guys however i did not like the legions woman hateing slave ways.. did not stop me from sideing with them more then a few times due to wanting to feel like a badass and wanting to watch NV burn >:3

 

[KingHodor]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

That is also anecdotal (as we don't witness them turning on their friends in game). What I'm saying is that the anecdotes aren't as effective as actually showing them treating their friends/allies/own people in such a deplorable way. There's a difference between knowing and witnessing. I know that if I jump into traffic I will get hurt, but seeing someone do it will have a huge impact on me. That's why I feel there is leeway in forgiving people for siding with the Legion. Because unless you take specific side quests/talking to the right people (the Khan side quest to change leadership/side with the NCR, where your example comes from, or talking to Jimmy), you just don't know that's how the Legion works. If all people know is that people don't like them and that they're slavers (by taking the NCRs side or going into in depth discussions/side quests with followers), it's hard to just know that the Legion isn't just like the Slaver group from the first or second game (who weren't great people, but they did nothing close to the atrocities of the Legion).
Go talk to Caesar. He's a flawed guy with his head in a pretty strange head space. I'm not saying he'll change your opinion of the Legion (it didn't change mine), but I think it gives some insight into why there are people who side with the Legion.
And let's face it. There are sane people when it comes to the Fallout world who feel slavery/dictatorship is a necessary evil (considering limited resources, sheer need to keep masses under control).
I'm not saying the Legion isn't horrible, in fact, I agree with your point on them being a non-option for me (I might complete their quest line for the achievements at some point). But you can't discount an opinion as insane when there are lots of reasons a sane person might side with the Legion (they appear to be the most solid society in the game, whether true or not; they know how to effectively defend their allies as Cass says; without following certain sidequests they simply don't seem as controlling/overpowering as they are; there's even an instant of confusion when a gay soldier in the NCR tells the player if the PC has the Confirmed Bachelor perk that the Legion is okay with gay relationships and without talking to Jimmy the player wouldn't know otherwise).

When all the options are flawed, its easier to make justifications for one side. I applaud Obsidian for doing that.

I think I may be muddling my point. Sorry for that.
All I'm saying is that all the evidence for how truly psychopathic the Legion is is anecdotal (meaning the evidence has less impact on the player) and requires the player finding it. That makes saying that all the people who choose the Legion aren't sane unrealistic as there are people who are just ignorant of the reality of the Legion and people who find justifications for the Legion's actions according to the Fallout world.

If we were to be personally shown every bad thing the legion does (implying that the Legion commits atrocities so frequently that anyone can just witness their whole repertoire of evil deeds by walking around the Mojave for a few weeks), it would make them almost comically villainous, sort of like the Drow in Baldur's Gate 2.

So instead we get to witness the massacre of Nipton, we see the aftermath of the destruction of camp searchlight, we see a bunch of slaves (who are most likely being mistreated atleast occasionally, being slaves and all) and we hear more or less credible accounts of the atrocities the legion has supposedly commited.

However, the most damning evidence for the legion being not "gray", but true "black" (or atleast very dark "anthracite") comes from your encounter with Vulpes Inculta, who flat out tells you that yes, they killed everyone in Nipton with methodical sadism and are damn proud of it, and that they want you to tell everyone about it, because that is exactly how the Legion rolls (and why you should consequently fear them); this also helps give credibility to all the other horror stories you've heard about the Legion so far.

 

[lovest harding]

If we were to be personally shown every bad thing the legion does (implying that the Legion commits atrocities so frequently that anyone can just witness their whole repertoire of evil deeds by walking around the Mojave for a few weeks), it would make them almost comically villainous, sort of like the Drow in Baldur's Gate 2.

So instead we get to witness the massacre of Nipton, we see the aftermath of the destruction of camp searchlight, we see a bunch of slaves (who are most likely being mistreated atleast occasionally, being slaves and all) and we hear more or less credible accounts of the atrocities the legion has supposedly commited.

However, the most damning evidence for the legion being not "gray", but true "black" (or atleast very dark "anthracite") comes from your encounter with Vulpes Inculta, who flat out tells you that yes, they killed everyone in Nipton with methodical sadism and are damn proud of it, and that they want you to tell everyone about it, because that is exactly how the Legion rolls (and why you should consequently fear them); this also helps give credibility to all the other horror stories you've heard about the Legion so far.

I wasn't saying we should see it. Just that it was incredibly easy to miss the anecdotes and that they don't stick in the players mind as well as they could because we don't see it (unlike Nipton where the player witnesses the aftermath of what happened).

But when Vulpes tells the player that the Legion sadistically murdered everyone and that they're proud of that fact, he still gives a reason as to why (and the reason given isn't all that different from the NCR's reasoning to do anything, the Legion feels they have a right to punish those it feels are morally corrupt). Which leads me back to the point I was originally making that there are reasons sane people can find to justify why they would go with Legion other than the NCR and that the choice to pick the Legion (no matter how 'black' they are) can be made with a justifiable reasoning and not just "I want to side with the evil guys."

 

[BodomBeachChild]

While I was not exactly thrilled with what the NCR have become I did my best to aide them. I didn't care for the Legion too much, but I also did my ebst to avoid putting bullets in their heads without cause. My first play through I sided with Yes Man, and didn't enjoy the whole "now everything is in chaos" deal. So, serval mods and play throughs later I just got to a certain point in the plot and said "ENOUGH" and just kept playing because, at least in my best playthrough I have now, neither the NCR or Legion hate me and they can continue shooting each other all day long while I build my own town.

captcha: folsom prison
I do have a lot of Johnny Cash on my Pipboy...

 

[Fasckira]

I was put off the Legion the minute I came across that place where they had crucified everyone and said, "What are you going to do about it?".

Fucking blew the buggers up with dynamite is what I did about it.

If they had been less dickish to me I would have been inclined to listen to them but they were hostile to me from the get-go so stuff 'em. I sided with House because, well, he seemed to know what he was doing. Plus I got a comfy bedroom in his tower.

 

[doomspore98]

While the NCR and the Legion both have their downsides. I believe that the legion is the greater of two evils, sure it keeps it's people safe, but it also crucifies anyone who defies them. I sided with house, because he seemed like the least corrupt, but whenever I was given the option to not kill anyone for house, I didn't (as in: I didn't kill the person). I kept good relationships with the NCR, but when I got to a high enough level, I wiped the legion out, and killed caesar, I still go back to the fort from time to time to snipe everyone again. Also, whenever someone asked me to join the legion, I killed those people too.

 

[Eddie the head]

Yes yes, very convincing, grey and grey and bad governing on both sides.

But this is what it comes down to, do I support a bloated but well meaning retarded government?

Or do I support a bunch of sociopathic, misogynistic, homophobic hypocritical dickwads?

That choice was VERY easy.

Are you referring to Fallout or the upcoming US federal election?

I, I like this guy. Anyway NCR for me, I could see House. But I mean they could just let Freeside rot like House, but they at least legitimately tried to help. It didn't work out but there heart was in the right place.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Here's why I don't support them: They're a bunch of bastards. Their armies are composed of assholes and murders and they have no morals, only a desire to make the world good in their own eyes and a willingness to sink to the lowest possible levels if it means getting there. They're never going to achieve anything because the majority of their forces are mad dogs that would descend into anarchy if the leadership ever slacks. There basically raiders with an iron-fisted dictator keeping them in check. There world would be a civilized abomination. The NCR might be full of bureaucracy, idiots, bad leadership and general garbage but at least there goals would make everything a hellhole. (it might wind up a hellhole but at least you planed something better)

 

[dvd_72]

Even if the NCR are spread too thinly to be an effective governing force I don't really see the problem in that. It makes more sense in a world where communication has become relatively rudimentary again would limit the region any governing body can exert its influence, meaning that settlements or groups of settlements will have to become self governing. As long as they don't turn to banditry and slavery, a whole bunch of independent settlements is the better option than Caesar Legion forcing you to send your young men and children into their military, or to become slaves.

In short, even an ineffective NCR is a better option than Caesar legion with a strong grip on its territories. Perhaps even better than an effective NCR presence within its territories.

Capcha: Great Unwashed. Well now, it's not their fault its difficult to get enough water to spare for a bath!

 

[Radoh]

I find it very silly that I should have to compromise what I want for a side that is 'good enough'.
My choice is almost always the Wild Card, and lucky me, there are plenty of ways to do it.

Do I kill Caesar and leave that legate in charge, knowing he will slowly run them into the dirt Or do I kill them both to remove an unknown?
Do I let the NCR sustain heavy casualties to leave me time to consolidate my power, or do I try to make them an ally?
When is it best to dispatch House, and do I want to kill him or not?

Then there's the DLC, oh boy the DLC.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I spy with my two eyes, a ninja expressing my thoughts!

i gather you dont play a female character when you side with a bunch of women hating rapists then

Yeah, the one time I played Caesar's side was one of the few times I played as a guy. I hated every second of siding with that fucker. Ex-Follower of the Apocalypse who embraces all the worst aspects of Rome, absolutely eschews civility in favor of unified barbarism, and has no use for technology, human rights, or society?

FUCK. THAT.

The NCR might not be as efficient, but they remember that the soil they're fighting over was once a nation that was founded on law and the rights of humanity, not a dictatorship led by a misogynistic, culture-destroying, society-reducing sociopath. Caesar might be stable, but when Caesar dies (from whatever I was using to kill him), his legion will soon start to fracture, to say nothing of how his stability is derived from killing any who would question his law. Easy to have peace when all your criminals are given badges.

Yeah, it's not a clear cut decision. Turns out, that's more realistic. I'd favor Mr House more if he was open to suggestions, rather than assume his is the only way. The tribes and groups of the Mojave could be valuable allies, if shaped right, but he assumes he knows what to do about them. A benevolent dictatorship, yes, but a dictatorship none the less, and Mr. House's agenda is known only to him. Losing his cold, calculating brilliance as a guiding hand is the downside to the Yes Man side (in addition to having both the NCR and Legion at your throat for then after, which also applies to Mr House's side).

So no, despite there being grey areas, I do not support siding with the slavers who make habit of cultural destruction, rape, murder, arson, crucifixion, torture, and technological regression.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

In my cannon game, I ended up siding with Mr. House.

Really nothing about him I could complain about.

 

[Savryc]

When stuck between NCR's "Join us or else" and the Legion's "Join us or else" I'll side with the guy with all the caps and laser/rocket/grenade/machine gun robots.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

I loved the shit out of the 5 or 6 hours I got to play of NV. Unfortunately, both it and Fallout 3 give me terrible vertigo and nausea T_T

Turn up yo FOV. It's a common thing. Try 85 to 90.

 

[Easton Dark]

You support a society thats only morals are being male and being strong. They contribute nothing, only consume what they take from others. Their military model will not work in the long run, armies can only get so large without an infrastructure. Honor and tradition on the battlefield, especially in the Fallout universe, is a silly notion.

They haven't learned from history, and are dooming themselves to repeat it, only in a world that is much less hospitable for an empire to be crumbling in. I guess if you like them, whatever, but I'll never support those morons.

 

[ww666]

I for one didn't like both side in the fight for the Mojave. You can see that the NCR are a bunch of thugs trying to force themselves into everything that has two legs and can hold a gun straight, and the Legion, well you maybe right about their methods being straigth-forward and all, but they are cruel and their attitude towards you even after you help them, is not friendly unless you join their side. So I choose my own path in the end, i'd rather be on my own side then having to back up either of them.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I was put off the Legion the minute I came across that place where they had crucified everyone and said, "What are you going to do about it?".

Fucking blew the buggers up with dynamite is what I did about it.

If they had been less dickish to me I would have been inclined to listen to them but they were hostile to me from the get-go so stuff 'em. I sided with House because, well, he seemed to know what he was doing. Plus I got a comfy bedroom in his tower.

Heh. Off-topic, but funny thing is, that's how I reacted to both the Legion and House. The Legion I of course blasted to hell after discovering Nipton (then got in their good graces long enough to talk to Caesar, then carpet-bombed his tent).

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of getting the poker chip before talking to House. When you do that, his immediate reaction is to demand you hand it over...and if you say you want your questions answered, he refuses to talk and threatens you. The man may be smart, but he's got the social graces of a rabid chipmunk, and really didn't know how to handle someone who's been strung out all over the Mojave and nearly killed half a dozen times, and isn't in the mood to take crap from anyone. Then the bastard demanded to know why I was killing him, and seemed shocked when I pointed out that I didn't like him. On the plus side, I discovered that comfy bedroom for myself!

I'll probably play a little differently next time, with a mellower character, and listen to what he has to say.