Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout

[Terminal Blue]

snip

I totally agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say they're a missed story opportunity because they're not even terribly interesting. There's no depth, there's no big ideals. They really are exactly what they appear to be, straight up fascists building a militarized society based on a 20th century re-imagining of a social system which noone involved in the Legion is smart enough to understand (no, not even Ceasar, the guy is a tinpot dictator on a power trip).

And you know what, the Enclave did that better. The super mutant army of the master did it so much better. Those groups had a plan, they had big ideas and they had genuine reasons for what they were doing, that's what made them effective villains. The legion had none of these things, just a bunch of tribals trying to build an authoritarian dictatorship without the technology or infrastructure to support it. Guess how well that's going to end?

I was really disappointed with Ceasars legion. There are so many things about the faction which have the potential to be interesting, particularly the way it was founded.. I mean think about it, missionary heads out into the untamed wilderness to spread civilization and ends up going native. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Spoiler

..and yet in the end it's all so completely shallow that it's actually a bit depressing.

 

[felbot]

funny thing is i actually made a female character and joined the legion to see if it where a quest for it, there wasnt and you where actually not capable of going in the arena, i was disappointed.

anyway, me personally? absolutely hate the legion, i kill them whenever i can, even got some centurion armor early on thanks to it, unfortunately the assassin squads do get annoying sometimes, and even hard when you're just out in the field.

i really enjoy the fact that we have so many fallout threads.

 

[KingHodor]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

 

[Jinjer]

I'll never side with the Legion since I'm a woman and I always roleplay as a female when given the option. Siding with the guys who see women as slaves only? Yeah, no.

I never actually finished NV, I just got bored and stormed Legion HQ for kicks. After that, didn't feel like having much of a point. I may get back to it sometime.

 

[Saviordd1]

Yes yes, very convincing, grey and grey and bad governing on both sides.

But this is what it comes down to, do I support a bloated but well meaning retarded government?

Or do I support a bunch of sociopathic, misogynistic, homophobic hypocritical dickwads?

That choice was VERY easy.

Are you referring to Fallout or the upcoming US federal election?

Well played

 

[lovest harding]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

That is also anecdotal (as we don't witness them turning on their friends in game). What I'm saying is that the anecdotes aren't as effective as actually showing them treating their friends/allies/own people in such a deplorable way. There's a difference between knowing and witnessing. I know that if I jump into traffic I will get hurt, but seeing someone do it will have a huge impact on me. That's why I feel there is leeway in forgiving people for siding with the Legion. Because unless you take specific side quests/talking to the right people (the Khan side quest to change leadership/side with the NCR, where your example comes from, or talking to Jimmy), you just don't know that's how the Legion works. If all people know is that people don't like them and that they're slavers (by taking the NCRs side or going into in depth discussions/side quests with followers), it's hard to just know that the Legion isn't just like the Slaver group from the first or second game (who weren't great people, but they did nothing close to the atrocities of the Legion).
Go talk to Caesar. He's a flawed guy with his head in a pretty strange head space. I'm not saying he'll change your opinion of the Legion (it didn't change mine), but I think it gives some insight into why there are people who side with the Legion.
And let's face it. There are sane people when it comes to the Fallout world who feel slavery/dictatorship is a necessary evil (considering limited resources, sheer need to keep masses under control).
I'm not saying the Legion isn't horrible, in fact, I agree with your point on them being a non-option for me (I might complete their quest line for the achievements at some point). But you can't discount an opinion as insane when there are lots of reasons a sane person might side with the Legion (they appear to be the most solid society in the game, whether true or not; they know how to effectively defend their allies as Cass says; without following certain sidequests they simply don't seem as controlling/overpowering as they are; there's even an instant of confusion when a gay soldier in the NCR tells the player if the PC has the Confirmed Bachelor perk that the Legion is okay with gay relationships and without talking to Jimmy the player wouldn't know otherwise).

When all the options are flawed, its easier to make justifications for one side. I applaud Obsidian for doing that.

I think I may be muddling my point. Sorry for that.
All I'm saying is that all the evidence for how truly psychopathic the Legion is is anecdotal (meaning the evidence has less impact on the player) and requires the player finding it. That makes saying that all the people who choose the Legion aren't sane unrealistic as there are people who are just ignorant of the reality of the Legion and people who find justifications for the Legion's actions according to the Fallout world.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

snip

I totally agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say they're a missed story opportunity because they're not even terribly interesting. There's no depth, there's no big ideals. They really are exactly what they appear to be, straight up fascists building a militarized society based on a 20th century re-imagining of a social system which noone involved in the Legion is smart enough to understand (no, not even Ceasar, the guy is a tinpot dictator on a power trip).

And you know what, the Enclave did that better. The super mutant army of the master did it so much better. Those groups had a plan, they had big ideas and they had genuine reasons for what they were doing, that's what made them effective villains. The legion had none of these things, just a bunch of tribals trying to build an authoritarian dictatorship without the technology or infrastructure to support it. Guess how well that's going to end?

I was really disappointed with Ceasars legion. There are so many things about the faction which have the potential to be interesting, particularly the way it was founded.. I mean think about it, missionary heads out into the untamed wilderness to spread civilization and ends up going native. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Spoiler

..and yet in the end it's all so completely shallow that it's actually a bit depressing.

To be fair, I think part of the deal with the legion from a meta perspective is that they could potentially (if you can get past all the atrocities they commit) be the most stable faction in the short term but would be atrocious in the long term. Just think about Caesar's own monologue about how he inspires distrust towards science and technology in the Legion, as a means of preserving his own power.

The game itself even acknowledges that the Legion only follows Caesar because of his personal charisma and that it likely won't last for after his demise. It also acknowledges that just about ever legionnaire apart from Caesar has no clue about the social or political ramifications of the Legion, but are mostly various forms of raiders, tribals and opportunists that have taken the chance to go on the largest pillaging spree since the Great War. The game even implies that Caesar himself doesn't really care about what Rome was like or what the wider consequences of his actions are in the long term as long as he gets his power and his legacy.

When compared to the NCR however, the Legion really gets a lot of faux-depth though. Despite all the negative things the game tells you about the Legion, it still tries to find a few good things to say about it. That all the good things basically amount to "repressive, militarized police state" should be pretty obvious to just about anyone who spends some time talking to NPCs about the various factions.

I wasn't disappointed with the Legion per se, but they definitely aren't as "gray" as some people like to pretend. They are squarely in the black corner and no amount of corruption, excessive bureaucracy and lack of political ambition from the NCR can ever put them on the same level as the faction that rapes, pillages and plunders for kicks (and because it runs a very real risk of dissolving into bitter civil war if it doesn't constantly face an external enemy).

I think this turned out a little longer then I expected...

 

[Icehearted]

Slavery is one of those things that nearly always flips my switch, in games or movies, or real life, I'm actually outraged by it pretty much right away. Big government is one thing, but getting things right and micromanagement can make even something as bloated as the NCR work, despite it's corruption. I generally side with altruism (go ahead, hate) so obviously slavers and rapists aren't going to win me over, not to mention the man himself coming off as a pompous wad of dick from the start, it didn't command respect, it compelled me to treachery (oddly treason is one of those other things that instantly piss me off).

I would have loved more ambiguity when it came to moral conflicts when deciding between the two, but the Legion really seemed designed to be disliked, so dislike them i shall.

Yes yes, very convincing, grey and grey and bad governing on both sides.

But this is what it comes down to, do I support a bloated but well meaning retarded government?

Or do I support a bunch of sociopathic, misogynistic, homophobic hypocritical dickwads?

That choice was VERY easy.

Oh how I chuckled.

 

[Korten12]

snip

This, plus isn't California like really civilized now? Like they actually have cities there and such?

 

[Terminal Blue]

snip

To be fair, I'm not claiming they're disappointing as video game antagonists. I mean, this is the only medium where it would be acceptable to unironically use evil space-nazis with comedy British accents.

But I'm disappointed because I really don't think they live up to any of the previous Fallout villains, all of whom had at least one or two big ideas to back them up.. or at least something cool going for them.

Like I said, they all had a purpose which made sense. The master wanted to eliminate the physical, intellectual and moral weaknesses of humanity and create a new race who could survive and rebuild in the hardship of the post-apocalyptic world. The Enclave wanted to eliminate all mutated humans so that they could emerge from their bunkers and rebuild their own distorted image of the American dream. In both cases, you can see clearly why they're doing it and how most of their actions feed into that ultimate goal.

Ceasar's legion have very little reasoning behind anything they do beyond "Ceasar is a dick". Why are they so hostile to women? I dunno, apparently Ceasar had mummy issues. Why do they punish homosexuality with the death penalty? I dunno, it kind of makes sense in that they're obviously an extremely homosocial society, but they have no religious or practical reason. Why Rome? Never really explained, particularly since the resemblance is entirely superficial.

I mean, now I think about it, everything "deep" or thoughtful about Ceasar's character is kind of a crib of James Earl Jones' character in Conan the Barbarian, and when you're managing to be more shallow than that movie it's probably time to quit.

 

[ProtoChimp]

House? Mummy.

?? I dont get it.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

this is what i love about this game, everyone can choose and people choose things for tons of things, i never really saw the NCR as the good guys however i did not like the legions woman hateing slave ways.. did not stop me from sideing with them more then a few times due to wanting to feel like a badass and wanting to watch NV burn >:3

 

[KingHodor]

The hard part about that is most of what is there in terms of cruelty to their own people are anecdotes. There are tangible examples of the slaves in the camp, but there's only a few of those.

We know that the Legion plans to completely wipe out the Khan's way of life once they join their ranks (killing off the elderly, selling the women into slavery, and crucifying anyone opposed to this altering of their deal with Caesar), so yeah, we do know how they treat their "friends".

Women are mostly considered household slaves and breeding livestock that can be sold like cattle. Children of slaves are taken away from their parents and brainwashed into becoming child soldiers.
And even if you're a male legionary who managed to live to become an officer, you're still expected to perform your breeding duties, and love nothing but Caesar and the Legion itself - as we hear from Jimmy (a gay prostitute in Outer Vegas who used to be a servant in the Legion), homosexuality is punished by death, so his master and lover, a centurion, had to send him away when his comrades became suspicious of their relationship.

That is also anecdotal (as we don't witness them turning on their friends in game). What I'm saying is that the anecdotes aren't as effective as actually showing them treating their friends/allies/own people in such a deplorable way. There's a difference between knowing and witnessing. I know that if I jump into traffic I will get hurt, but seeing someone do it will have a huge impact on me. That's why I feel there is leeway in forgiving people for siding with the Legion. Because unless you take specific side quests/talking to the right people (the Khan side quest to change leadership/side with the NCR, where your example comes from, or talking to Jimmy), you just don't know that's how the Legion works. If all people know is that people don't like them and that they're slavers (by taking the NCRs side or going into in depth discussions/side quests with followers), it's hard to just know that the Legion isn't just like the Slaver group from the first or second game (who weren't great people, but they did nothing close to the atrocities of the Legion).
Go talk to Caesar. He's a flawed guy with his head in a pretty strange head space. I'm not saying he'll change your opinion of the Legion (it didn't change mine), but I think it gives some insight into why there are people who side with the Legion.
And let's face it. There are sane people when it comes to the Fallout world who feel slavery/dictatorship is a necessary evil (considering limited resources, sheer need to keep masses under control).
I'm not saying the Legion isn't horrible, in fact, I agree with your point on them being a non-option for me (I might complete their quest line for the achievements at some point). But you can't discount an opinion as insane when there are lots of reasons a sane person might side with the Legion (they appear to be the most solid society in the game, whether true or not; they know how to effectively defend their allies as Cass says; without following certain sidequests they simply don't seem as controlling/overpowering as they are; there's even an instant of confusion when a gay soldier in the NCR tells the player if the PC has the Confirmed Bachelor perk that the Legion is okay with gay relationships and without talking to Jimmy the player wouldn't know otherwise).

When all the options are flawed, its easier to make justifications for one side. I applaud Obsidian for doing that.

I think I may be muddling my point. Sorry for that.
All I'm saying is that all the evidence for how truly psychopathic the Legion is is anecdotal (meaning the evidence has less impact on the player) and requires the player finding it. That makes saying that all the people who choose the Legion aren't sane unrealistic as there are people who are just ignorant of the reality of the Legion and people who find justifications for the Legion's actions according to the Fallout world.

If we were to be personally shown every bad thing the legion does (implying that the Legion commits atrocities so frequently that anyone can just witness their whole repertoire of evil deeds by walking around the Mojave for a few weeks), it would make them almost comically villainous, sort of like the Drow in Baldur's Gate 2.

So instead we get to witness the massacre of Nipton, we see the aftermath of the destruction of camp searchlight, we see a bunch of slaves (who are most likely being mistreated atleast occasionally, being slaves and all) and we hear more or less credible accounts of the atrocities the legion has supposedly commited.

However, the most damning evidence for the legion being not "gray", but true "black" (or atleast very dark "anthracite") comes from your encounter with Vulpes Inculta, who flat out tells you that yes, they killed everyone in Nipton with methodical sadism and are damn proud of it, and that they want you to tell everyone about it, because that is exactly how the Legion rolls (and why you should consequently fear them); this also helps give credibility to all the other horror stories you've heard about the Legion so far.

 

[lovest harding]

If we were to be personally shown every bad thing the legion does (implying that the Legion commits atrocities so frequently that anyone can just witness their whole repertoire of evil deeds by walking around the Mojave for a few weeks), it would make them almost comically villainous, sort of like the Drow in Baldur's Gate 2.

So instead we get to witness the massacre of Nipton, we see the aftermath of the destruction of camp searchlight, we see a bunch of slaves (who are most likely being mistreated atleast occasionally, being slaves and all) and we hear more or less credible accounts of the atrocities the legion has supposedly commited.

However, the most damning evidence for the legion being not "gray", but true "black" (or atleast very dark "anthracite") comes from your encounter with Vulpes Inculta, who flat out tells you that yes, they killed everyone in Nipton with methodical sadism and are damn proud of it, and that they want you to tell everyone about it, because that is exactly how the Legion rolls (and why you should consequently fear them); this also helps give credibility to all the other horror stories you've heard about the Legion so far.

I wasn't saying we should see it. Just that it was incredibly easy to miss the anecdotes and that they don't stick in the players mind as well as they could because we don't see it (unlike Nipton where the player witnesses the aftermath of what happened).

But when Vulpes tells the player that the Legion sadistically murdered everyone and that they're proud of that fact, he still gives a reason as to why (and the reason given isn't all that different from the NCR's reasoning to do anything, the Legion feels they have a right to punish those it feels are morally corrupt). Which leads me back to the point I was originally making that there are reasons sane people can find to justify why they would go with Legion other than the NCR and that the choice to pick the Legion (no matter how 'black' they are) can be made with a justifiable reasoning and not just "I want to side with the evil guys."

 

[BodomBeachChild]

While I was not exactly thrilled with what the NCR have become I did my best to aide them. I didn't care for the Legion too much, but I also did my ebst to avoid putting bullets in their heads without cause. My first play through I sided with Yes Man, and didn't enjoy the whole "now everything is in chaos" deal. So, serval mods and play throughs later I just got to a certain point in the plot and said "ENOUGH" and just kept playing because, at least in my best playthrough I have now, neither the NCR or Legion hate me and they can continue shooting each other all day long while I build my own town.

captcha: folsom prison
I do have a lot of Johnny Cash on my Pipboy...

 

[Fasckira]

I was put off the Legion the minute I came across that place where they had crucified everyone and said, "What are you going to do about it?".

Fucking blew the buggers up with dynamite is what I did about it.

If they had been less dickish to me I would have been inclined to listen to them but they were hostile to me from the get-go so stuff 'em. I sided with House because, well, he seemed to know what he was doing. Plus I got a comfy bedroom in his tower.

 

[doomspore98]

While the NCR and the Legion both have their downsides. I believe that the legion is the greater of two evils, sure it keeps it's people safe, but it also crucifies anyone who defies them. I sided with house, because he seemed like the least corrupt, but whenever I was given the option to not kill anyone for house, I didn't (as in: I didn't kill the person). I kept good relationships with the NCR, but when I got to a high enough level, I wiped the legion out, and killed caesar, I still go back to the fort from time to time to snipe everyone again. Also, whenever someone asked me to join the legion, I killed those people too.