The internet is beatinful for noone has gender on it, we are not judged by our gender, race or looks, but for what we do and say. and i do not think anyone shoud "hide" on the internet.
Pink Gregory said:
I wonder if anyone who actually sends those 'Ur a girl? Show me ur tits?' messages has actually admitted it to other people.
their probably douches in real life too. internet allows you to act the way you want if no restrictions existed. and if thats the best you can come up with then well thats who you are. if the person acts different in real life then all he does is pretend. and pretending to be somone you are not is never a good thing.
TheKasp said:
Includes parents, mobile gamers, facebook gamers etc of both genders.
And even if: They are still gamers. We are talking about a label with the only entry barrier of "plays games". Everything else is bullshit pulled out of asses to justify elitism.
back when the new research came out in the comments some peopel dug up some mroe extensive research showing that games that we classify as "more hardcore" have significant male domination, whereas games like puzzle gaming have female domination, thus equalizing it in total sum, but not even close to being similar for these games you usually think of when someone says "gamer".
The internet is beatinful for noone has gender on it, we are not judged by our gender, race or looks, but for what we do and say. and i do not think anyone shoud "hide" on the internet.
This isn't true though.
You do have a gender on the internet.
It's male.
Unless you specifically say otherwise, and that is counted as attention seeking.
Well I'm going to call bullshit on you. Your argument to back that up is "I haven't seen one" but not 5 seconds before that you were calling guys out for saying girls don't play games because they haven't seen them.
That's the point isn't it? We observe the world and only through ourselves. I don't believe in "Real Gamer's" because it implies "Fake Gamer's" exist. It's the height of elitism.
Yes there's a flaw in my statement. I failed to convey my point effectively. I'm willing to own that.
As for "White-Knighting" Yes that's me too. Give me a horse and banner I have work to do. I don't like to see people get bullied or taunted for no good reason and will defend them when I can. Why is it wrong to want to encourage people to be themselves and want to support them? The problem for me isn't that there are people who are jumping on the bandwagon, it's that there are people on the wagon deciding they shouldn't be there because they're new or a Woman or not as savvy as them.
I don't hide my gender at all and am happily open about it when it comes up. Playing CoD online can be quite funny, especially if I'm having a good game. Any banter that turns into harassment just gets muted/put on the blocked list. Problem solved :0)
I don't need someone to make it "easier" for me, if it was hard in the beginning then I would have giving up by now. I love gaming and I will always be a gamer and no one can stop me. I also don't like saying I'm a female gamer because gender shouldn't matter when playing a video game.
I apologize if I have caused offense. You don't need help and that's probably the best thing but not everyone is as thick skinned as you. You state that you've always found it easy but there are those who find it very hard and persist. Even in this very thread. And I think they deserve support.
To a lot of people Gender does matter. Stating it shouldn't doesn't make it go away. You only brush over the problem. It's acknowledgement but it's passive and it allows it to continue. I believe that by openly supporting the people who have it harder than us we can enrich their experience and make "Game Culture" a haven for all. It's idealistic but it's what I choose to believe.
Saying female gamers hide due to getting scrutinized, harassed, etc - that part is fine, it's believable. But then saying "we need to support them!" as if they're some kind of weak endangered species that need supporting? That's pretty demeaning to female gamers if you ask me.
If a female gamer hides her gender on purpose, that's her goddamn decision. It's her issue to tackle. Nobody else's. Saying naive shit like "but what's wrong with being nicer to each other?" is moot because this is the internet - people are allowed to be nice, people are allowed to be mean, and you WILL constantly run into endless waves of people from all walks of life and there's nothing you can do about it other than to steel-up and find a solution that works for you.
If you hide your gender because it causes you to get harassed, stalked or discriminated, that's YOUR problem - if your solution is to forever conceal your gender and never use a microphone again, that's 100% fine, it's completely YOUR decision. You are simply contributing to the old "girls don't exist on the internet", "girls don't play proper games", "girls suck at games", etc myths/memes (that are at least based on some level of truth).
But please do not attempt to blame the internet for shunning you into hiding, as if the internet is some kind of single entity lol.
This goes for male gamers too, please don't try to "blame" bad apples on the internet being responsible for making female gamers cower and hide. Females are people too you know, they can speak for themselves, make their own decisions and don't need any special support. Treat them like you would treat everyone else, whether it be with loving praise for playing well or a kick up the ass for not pulling their weight (however you roll').
The first step to accepting female gamers as a normal part of gaming communities is to stop pretending they need help/encouragement or a goddamn red carpet rolled out for them.
I'm certainly not hiding, I just don't see why it is a big deal to be a girl who plays games. I would sooner identify myself as a 'gamer' than a 'girl gamer'. Oh and 'fake gamer girls' definitely do exist, one of my friends bought a Triforce T-shirt and doesn't know that the main character is called Link and not Zelda. She has also not played any Zelda games but still says that Ocarina of Time is one of the best N64 titles if not one of the best RPGs in history.
How kind you are to your friends. My mother buys Magic Cards and would say Ravnica: City of Guilds was her favorite set if pressed for her opinion. She has never played, and in fact doesn't know how to play, a game of Magic. (I think she's faking it to bag herself a younger model...)
OT: I've never had too many problems with my gender where video games are concerned, but I started out mostly playing with others at tournaments. Simply something you can't hide, or at least I can't, in person.
As for online play, most chat is verbal vomit anyways. Spend one day in League solo queue for all the proof ever needed. I use my mic everyday, as I'm typing even, and I haven't run into anything I couldn't handle yet. I deal with most of it with snide humor and reserve the blacklist option for anything that strays into crazy land.
I DO wield my doublex chromosome as a weapon if I'm playing for keeps and my opposition gives me the opportunity . For example, I was at a tourney a while back and after 5 rounds I was at the first table. (Basically within the top 16 out of the 350 or so there.) My husband walked me to my seat and we were discussing the cake I was planning to make to the following day. My opponent over heard and apparently lost his mind, for I can think of no other reason why he decided to explain the mechanics of the game to me for the next 20 minutes. But hey, I'll take his money if he wants to give it to me. I won't if I'm playing for fun. Like how I'll inform a friend if I can see their poker cards, but not the lady sitting next to be in Vegas.
It sucks that girls get harassed when they try to play games and all of that but honestly I don't think there's a need for anyone to go out of their way to point out their gender anyway. It doesn't enhance the experience of gaming any to know you're playing Journey with a man or a woman. So no they shouldn't have to go out of their way to hide they are a girl, but they also don't need to announce it like they are some kind of anomaly and it deserves special mention that they are a girl. Instead just be a gamer if you want to be a gamer, and let the way you play speak for itself.
The reality is that, due to the nature of the internet, females are going to be harassed sooner or... sooner. Almost every female gamer I know hides their gender as best they can, because the unwanted attention simply isn't worth it. And really, nobody needs to know.
I don't give a fuck about what gender the people I'm playing with are. I default to referring to people as 'he/him/his', and what I really don't need is someone piping up going "but im a girl", and starting the shitstorm of unwanted attention and getting off topic by idiots.
No, but for core games to be half and half, casual games must also be half and half, or the data is skewed.
The fact is: You dismiss a number based on the claim that it includes the kind of gamers you don't approve of. But on the other hand you want 'a survey' for the same claim to be applied to the opposite gender. Why? Because of your 'suspection'?
I don't know what you mean by suspection, and I've defined what gamers I'm dismissing, and it has nothing to do with my approval or disapproval. I am not being elitist. You need to understand that before we continue discussing this. If you do reply to this and you in any way accuse me of being elitist or dismissing things without reasons other than personal taste, that will be the end of this conversation. Gaming was more male-dominated than it is now, and that is understood without a survey (or do you think females were always up to 47% of the playerbase?). Therefore the established assumption is that the majority of gamers are male. However mobile and Facebook games have only come to light recently in the history of gaming, and there is no assumption either way. So for you to assert something requires a survey.
But since I looked for more recent numbers: http://blog.flurry.com/?Tag=Casual%20Gaming
The gap between male and female social / mobile game consumers is less than 10% (with 47% of social / mobile gamers being male).
So females are more prevalent in social and mobile gaming by 6%. The survey says that 33% play social games, but that doesn't include mobile gaming and overlaps with other percentage, so I'm not sure how much weighting to give that. At any rate, it's not as weighted as I had thought, so there are probably more female core gamers than I had thought as well. Still not 47%, but a decent amount.
Haha, the first sentence makes me chuckle. 'There is a difference between core and casual and the evidence is the differenece between core and casual!' If I disagree that there is a difference you basically have no evidence.
What is so funny about drawing inferences about users from products? I fail to see how what I wrote becomes such a stupid remark as you have interpreted.
By the way, all your 'arguments' can be applied to Farmville - a game I had to play for quite some time. If I wanted I could even go out of way and point out how all those points can be used to dismiss any popular 'core' game as casual.
Well this will be fun then. How about you tell me with reference to design and mechanics how Dark Souls is casual. I assert that Dark Souls requires adaptibility to an unknown situation as the player progresses, awareness of minute details, an intuitive knowledge of roll and parry timings, an awareness of how stats work with weapons, the details of movesets for weapons, the functions of NPCs, and balancing the risks of spending and saving souls given the ease of death. Or we can do Armored Core if you'd like, but that's not as common (probably easier for me to argue though). And if you could, justify Mafia Wars as a core game. I realise I'm asking a lot, but claiming to be able to justify any game either way is a large claim.
The basic mechanics are based on exp gained, money gained and time needed for many different ressources. How much thought do they need? How much do I need to adapt: It all boils down to my decision. Do I want to level as fast as possible? Then I need to get at first the most money per hour out of it until I get certain ressources on mass which, after careful consideration and calculation push out the best exp/h than any other way you could try to compete with it - so much that the short investment in more money/h is more worth it (I had fucking graphs and calculations for that but I lost them during the years since the challenge was completed).
Do you see what I did there? I took a 'simple' game and made it to math. For maximum I had to adapt with what the game gave me and abuse it. I think I have all your points (aside from marketing) covered. So Farmville is a core game.
But like I did not have to put all that thought into this game, neither do I have to put any thought in any game there is. Thus every game is casual.
Did you just say you can put any amount of effort you want into any game and succeed? Because that's the furthest thing from the truth you've said so far. Unless you count not actually progressing through the game and just screwing around deliberately not learning the mechanics playing, in which case yes, you can also fail a test and still have shown up, doesn't make all tests easy. But I will also challenge you on the effort you put in. What I get from your post in basically you are dealing with 3 quantities and trying to get the maximum benefit possible. Do you consider that challenging your skills, whether at maths or gaming? You're dealing with comparison of ratios. Comparing which is better. It's not like changing a weapon, which has advantages and disadvantages and will affect playstyle. Furthermore, that's not adaptation (so far, maybe you'll elaborate). Does the game change as you play, or did you figure out the best thing to do and do it unhindered for the rest of your time? Lastly, does the game require that you put effort in to that extent, or are you setting yourself a challenge within the forgiving boundaries of a game with no skill required? Minmaxing takes more effort than the lowest required level of play in basically any game.
So there is no difference. There is nothing that differs a core game from a casual one that is consistant. Is there a clear cut definition by which you can say 'Game X is casual, Game Y is core'? I tried to get one and all I got is wishy washy phrases applieable to all kind of games.
I like to point out that in the survey there is no distinction in which gender plays what. 15% play pay to play online games - subscribtion based MMOs. Card games, Puzzle games and board games can be classified as core game by the following points:
"Look at what the basic mechanics are and how much thought or adaptibility they require, look at the structure and mechanics and how they try to have the player act".
So in the end all that makes core games core is 'marketing'... And then I have to ask myself: Why? Why does marketing dictate what gender has to enjoy what?
Oh, if ONLY the survey had said which demographics play what, that would just be miraculous, I could have looked at the survey and trusted what it said. But that isn't the case, as you've pointed out.
There are of course card games, puzzle games and board games that can be classified as core games. Apart from the fact that the distinction between casual and core games isn't exactly my point - I'm actually trying to distinguish between games that generally don't see female players being underestimated as part of the playerbase and treated poorly and games that do, which is what is important to the topic - some are more core than others. It is a scale, on which I have been referring to games squarely on either side of the spectrum and not elaborating about games like SCB, which I would probably consider core as opposed to casual, but which is nonetheless a very simple game.
Marketing is a bit of a second-hand point to be honest, it's basically me assuming there was knowledge behind which demographic a game targeted and that was representative of the general trends of demographics. Basically, they sell purple Lego to girls because girls like purple Lego in general. I'm assuming competence on behalf of the marketers in knowing their demographics.
It would, yeah. As it stands tho I don't get cents for my mother's fornication though, so the best I can do is offer to throw in my lot with the rest of the community and if we get enough, roll in the enforcers.
There's already a word for what you're trying to say. It's "femininity".
OT, while there are many girls who play mainstream games, the number is observably less than guys. MMOs are an exception, as are mobile/casual/facebook type games. But PC/Console games, which do have female players don't have nearly so many as men. This can be proven by absolutely anyone. To see for yourself, pick any online 360/PS3 game, join the multiplayer and count the number of girls vs. number of guys. Any game, any time of day, any country, any platform.
I totally understand why you do that but I do wish that girls would stop hiding the fact that they're playing.
I just can't help but feel that the community will be slower to lose these retarded attitudes if we're hiding behind male avatars.
To be honest, I don't really like hiding, but it's so much easier.
When playing things like WoW or Guild Wars, if I'm in a guild and it uses voice I have no problem with coming on and being myself.
But in games like DOTA2 and TF2, I won't join in on mic talk, even if my friends are.
It changes really, sometimes I'll be chatty, and other days I just can't deal with the shit.
Games with elements where you're forced to work together and with a friendly attitude will generally have more girls vocal.
Games where personal accountability and mistakes are prone to making fucktards speak their mind with no repercussions because of the nature of the game will generally have girls being silent because anyone who does the men will quickly go 'OH SHES A GIRL, THAT'S WHY SHE SUCKS' or something to that effect. And basically find an easy stepping stone to attacking your right to exist because god forbid you screw up in a video game now and then. I'm not implying that men don't recieve vitirol for playing badly either, but usually it won't be 'because he's a man'. It'll be either 'race/accent/religion/young/old/lolurmom' instead.
...It's hysterical really.
MMO's and a few other types of games have an element of maintaining your social standing, if you behave badly, the entire community is going to know you're a dick and not want to help you complete any of the higher goals in the game, RTS, MOBA's, random team games and places where you can fall into anonymity without being tracked without effort has none of that and people use it to be a complete sexist, racist, shit of a person.
And I agree, there are days where I cannot deal with that. Otherwise I'll try... Girls need to be more vocal or this absurd myth of our nonexistence or out right hostility to our presence is never going to go away. Speak ladies, if you do encounter a jerk, mute him (or her, it does happen) faster than you can shoot your next attack, because you don't need to deal with that today! If it's impeding on your team play, your team mates will have to coax an apology out of the asshole or have you just move on to another game/round. You do NOT need to put up with 'the boys club' mentality to the point of emotional disturbance. Get the hell out of there, do not pander or let it continue, the more they get to speak to you, the more they feel they have an audience for it.
back when the new research came out in the comments some peopel dug up some mroe extensive research showing that games that we classify as "more hardcore" have significant male domination, whereas games like puzzle gaming have female domination, thus equalizing it in total sum, but not even close to being similar for these games you usually think of when someone says "gamer".
The problem is more or less to find accurate data from recent years and not 2007, the date where most of the data comes from in those claims (basically most sources I find when searching for 'casual games audience gender'). The thing is: The gaming audience and industry is growing and changing really, really fast. Numbers from 2007 are not accurate today up to a point where I personally consider it wrong to try and apply those in such context.
I found something that suggests that the actual gender gap in mobile / social gaming is less than 10%, linked above in post number 160. Though I won't suggest that it is the most accurate stuff I can find.
Several things were linked in this thread suggesting that the gender gap in the more popular titles (fuck 'hardcore', what a stupid word in this context) differs from game to game with Sims being dominant among females, WoW being nearly 1:1 and CoD 3:1 (men to women).
My point being: The justification of ignoring data in regard of only one gender without support (as in: recent data) while not holding up the same standard to the other gender is stupid. People are asked to provide data for the claim that a significant amount of men plays social / casual games while everyone gobbles up that same claim about the opposite gender.
i agree that we really should conduct more research and get newer data than that. and 2007 is quite old, especially in industry that changes this rapidly. however sadly statistics is a very slow in its essence. mostly due to statistics needing to be very brad in their populating selection, thus being very costly to produce correctly with very little mnetary return. i know for a fact many statistic offices still calcualte stuff for 2013 based on structiure from a research they conducted in 2006. and thats officials were talking about.
I did notice your social gaming gap comment (though after i typed the one your quoting) and i can see how it changed. personally i never gamed on the phone as i saw absolutely no purpose. now that i have to ride in a bus for an hour every day to work, i end up playing on my android from time to time. so theres +1 for male audience
hardcore is a stupid word, however it is the best decription (that others will udnerstand) we got. popular does not fit. Wii-fit is the most popular (units sold) title of all time. and its not in the category peple label "Hardcore". it really is hard to find any reasonable decription for this construct, possibly because it in itself is not a god one to begin with.
Thing is, we have had evidence for the men being dominant in these genres in the past, so the claime who says they are nt should be supporting evidence. im not saying your wrong, but i would like to see why do you claim so, because lets face it there are a lot of people on the internet who talk bull.
Personally, if a girl hides the fact she is a girl (intentionally not using a mic), then she shouldn't be playing online games. This is the Internet - a place where every eight-year old with a microphone and a keyboard can call anyone whatever they wish with usually no repercussions. The Internet is a place where the insecure will point out faults with everyone else just to make themselves feel better. The Internet is a place where the weakest awkward kid in school can act like a body-building tough guy with confidence. The Internet is a place where morons congregate on a regular basis to spew unfounded hate, racist remarks, sexist comments, and all-around idiotic statements, all-the-while thinking they are the biggest and smartest bad ass in history for trying to put everyone down.
This all goes into how I believe if you are going to play a multiplayer game over the Internet, you need to have the spine and the intellectual capacity to just ignore these asinine comments and go about your game. There are instances where this cannot be ignored like joining a pug on L4D2 and being tossed into a group of three guys who act like a female voice is like finding the holy grail. That type of situation is best dealt with by aborting and trying for a better group because if your teammates (in any game) cannot work past the fact your voice resembles a female, then you are destined to lose and generally have a bad time trying to brush off their advances or stupid remarks.
Still, if you are going through the trouble of ditching a mic or you're too afraid to tell people you're a girl just because some prepubescent morons overreact to your voice, then you shouldn't be playing games in my opinion. If you are ashamed of who you are to the point you will go out of your way to avoid letting anyone know you might be a guy or girl, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place. Guys, be proud that you are a gamer (I'm talking to the actual gamers and not the casual kiddies) and don't be afraid to announce it to anyone. Girls, same thing goes for you. If someone has a problem with your gender, then that's THEIR problem and not yours. If they are getting annoying, most games have a mute and/or ignore feature for just that purpose.
Or alternately, games are about entertainment and having fun, and if you can avoid making it a chore and actually focus on the "having fun" part, then why should you care? Frankly, I lost the patience for hearing the same stupid shit that follows me everywhere I go over and over years ago, and I don't have the time to wade through servers until I find the perfect experience anymore. Dumb teenagers just aren't as minutely amusing to me as they once were, so when I buy a game, I'll play it as I please. Thank you very much.
Because this is the internet. You have a lot of a-holes who would use anything "different" to insult others. Making it clear you're a woman will get you the same treatment as announcing you're black, muslim, jewish, gay, whatever. Being different is unfortunately enough of a reason for some to go batshit crazy.
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