Why I Wear Princess Leia's Metal Slave Bikini

Scow2

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LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
 

crimson5pheonix

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LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, I think I got another word wrong. I thought "disingenuous" meant "insincere".
Oh, and who actually used that word before you came in?
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.

Of course,

But you definitely did say she was pandering.
Well, she just so happens to be expressing a number of views that all appeal to a certain group of people that she and the site she works for love appealing to, but you're right. It's wrong to make assumptions that people who are paid to write articles want their articles to attract attention from an intended audience.
LifeCharacter said:
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
I feel that my assumption is well founded. But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
 

Liana Kerzner

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Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this. Where's the hashtagtwittertumblrmob that supposedly is responsible for this?

Also, did you expect asking me to prove something I never actually claimed nor could I realistically prove (especially to the standards of certain people who are more than likely to have standards of proof that are suddenly really high) to accomplish something?
 

crimson5pheonix

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LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.
Don't worry about it, it's quite common amongst people desperate to take issue with something despite not having some tangible thing to actually take issue with.

But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
We could also discount her opinion because she supports it with your typical assortment of bad anti-feminist rhetoric that only really convinces people who were already thoroughly entrenched in the idea of some shadow group of morality enforcing counterfeit feminists (wearing police hats!). That's what I'd like to do. Though, I imagine that makes it harder for you to continue this disingenuous thing you're doing where you ignore what people actually say in favor of going on about nonsense. It must be horribly inconvenient for you and I feel just terrible about putting you through such a thing.
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
 

ThatOtherGirl

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LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this. Where's the hashtagtwittertumblrmob that supposedly is responsible for this?
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
 

Liana Kerzner

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crimson5pheonix said:
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
Like I said, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes in our attempts at blindly charging forward at those evil people who think that a woman might be wrong and be using crappy arguments, especially when they're criticizing counterfeit feminists while said crappy arguments are little more than a copy of what anti-feminists would write.

...Well, not "all," really. More like some, with some grammatical workings to make it fit.

Though if you'd like, I could change the description of your recent posts from disingenuous to just blindly ignorant of what other people are actually writing. Those are really the only two options when I write "I think the author's wrong because her arguments are bad" and you come away with this whole thing of yours.

ThatOtherGirl said:
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
And I'm surprised that if it was such a fairly significant wave of pressure that has been much talked about and very well covered, you decided to commit the cardinal sin of telling rather than showing. Because it seems like the latter would be really easy to do.
 

crimson5pheonix

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LifeCharacter said:
Alright, enough being cute.

LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You're right, I jumped to conclusions. I saw your statement that she was pandering with a cookie-cutter argument and took it to mean that you don't think she believes the views that she espouses.
Don't worry about it, it's quite common amongst people desperate to take issue with something despite not having some tangible thing to actually take issue with.

But in any case, this has been a big misunderstanding. Since I have clearly misunderstood feminism, I suppose it's only right that we discount her opinion since we can operate on the assumption that she doesn't believe what she writes. We can do so because she disagrees with certain feminists apparently. My bad.
We could also discount her opinion because she supports it with your typical assortment of bad anti-feminist rhetoric that only really convinces people who were already thoroughly entrenched in the idea of some shadow group of morality enforcing counterfeit feminists (wearing police hats!). That's what I'd like to do. Though, I imagine that makes it harder for you to continue this disingenuous thing you're doing where you ignore what people actually say in favor of going on about nonsense. It must be horribly inconvenient for you and I feel just terrible about putting you through such a thing.

You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored. What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours. You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money. This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong. It is the argument that women should only hold certain opinions, or at least that they can't hold certain other opinions. It is not the argument that advances female empowerment or equality, it's the argument that stratifies women into "right" or "wrong".

If that's not what you meant to say, you should find a different way to say what you mean.

If you want to say you didn't say what I quoted, deal with your own conscience.
 

Scow2

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LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
If you think there's no pressure from the public, you must be socially deaf. Also - can you prove you're not just as disingenuous in stating your opinion as you feel she is in hers?
Show me the sort of public pressure that could get a massive corporation to do something. Preferably something that is recent and can actually be linked to this.
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.

So... I guess we are showing by having this conversation in the first place.

Something I have a problem with in discussions of feminism (and this is an "External baggage" thing, not wholly related to this particular conversation) is when avoiding sexually-objectifying women moves from that to shaming and suppressing the female form. This came up in the Stormtrooper commander's armor. Stormtrooper men wear boobplate armor that reflects the underlying anatomy. Why don't stormtrooper women? This is a common thing in discussion of sci-fi/fantasy armors. (It doesn't help that some idiots think women have dicks over their ribcage instead of chests)
 

Liana Kerzner

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My take.

sexuality is part of life and being human.

Showing sexuality or a sexual aspect is showing an aspect of well humanity.

To try and deny that sexuality and sex is natural seems very odd to me and almost puritanical like some abstinence pushing religious group with the whole "Sex is bad, no sex before marriage"

If you're over sensitive or easily offended best skip this video illustrating the kind of people I mean.

I mean if people were going to try and take umbrage at something I'd have honestly thought it would have been the symbolism of her white outfit at the start due to it's common link to the idea of purity and virginity and how sacred such things are to some, which for the longest time such ideas actually restricted Women's sexual agency.

I mean if you want to talk about symbolism it's Leia in the slave outfit that kills planetary mob boss Jabba the Hutt in almost a symbolic act of proving she still had power and agency of her own meanwhile in the white outfit she's captured and Damseled.
 

Callate

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(Checks watch)...So, everybody convinced that their opposites are irredeemable in their ignorance, malicious in their intent, cemented in their closed-mindedness, and that they were fully justified in their preconceptions again?

I mean, if you really feel that a metal bikini is the fulcrum on which so much rides that it's necessary to become incandescently ballistic about it, being either the final straw before the world slides into either feminist tyranny or the universal acceptance of female slavery, far be it from me to stand in your way.

But if those ideas seem, perhaps, the tiniest bit hyperbolic, maybe you could grant those who disagree with you the slightest shred of humanity, perhaps even try to find some common ground? Make actual progress? Expand some horizons?

Look, I'm not claiming to be above this kind of thing, or that I've never gotten overly heated in an argument that wasn't worth the trouble. But to see this kind of spite and sneering, just outside the boundaries of the terms of use, over and over again, doesn't convince me of the peerless enlightenment and unassailable goodness of anyone participating. It just makes me tired.
 

ThatOtherGirl

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LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Well one thing I certainly feel horrible about is that, apparently in addition to not knowing the definitions of certain words, I was also incorrect about you even using those words in your posts that I quoted you using them in.

I suppose that means that I'm not actually reading you using "disingenuous" in this post that I'm quoting?

Does that also mean that I'm not seeing you saying (paraphrase) "we should discount the opinions of people who strenuously disagree with certain feminists"?
Like I said, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes in our attempts at blindly charging forward at those evil people who think that a woman might be wrong and be using crappy arguments, especially when they're criticizing counterfeit feminists while said crappy arguments are little more than a copy of what anti-feminists would write.

...Well, not "all," really. More like some, with some grammatical workings to make it fit.

Though if you'd like, I could change the description of your recent posts from disingenuous to just blindly ignorant of what other people are actually writing. Those are really the only two options when I write "I think the author's wrong because her arguments are bad" and you come away with this whole thing of yours.

ThatOtherGirl said:
There has been a fairly significant wave of pressure coming from parents over the past year and a half on the slave Leia issue. It's been much talked about and very well covered, I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, seeing how much you seem to care about feminism.
And I'm surprised that if it was such a fairly significant wave of pressure that has been much talked about and very well covered, you decided to commit the cardinal sin of telling rather than showing. Because it seems like the latter would be really easy to do.
A cardinal sin? Wow, that's a bit over dramatic. I have no interest in forum sparing with you. Just thought you might want to know your ignorance of the issue was showing. You could just google it. I mean, if it was really something you were interested in beyond simply winning the argument at hand you would end up doing that anyway.
 

Scow2

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I'm not sure how anything she said could be construed as Anti-feminist, aside from a snipe at people who seek to use "feminism' to deprive women of control over their own lives and bodies.
 

Liana Kerzner

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crimson5pheonix said:
You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored.
I wasn't aware pandering and disengenuous were now horrible charges that one must never level at anyone ever lest they wish to insist that they don't hold any of the opinions they're actually stating. Though let's be clear, she is very much pandering to the crowd of people who cheer every time someone criticizes the "morality police" and "censorship" and let's just say that I hope that she was being disingenuous when she used those arguments, because being sincere in there use is much worse. And I guess I said her opinion can be discounted, though I'm not sure why discounting (or ignoring) someone's opinion when it's supported poorly is bad.

What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours.
Oh no, I very much believe people can legitimately hold a view counter to mine. I don't believe that all these people in the world who disagree with me are just being incredibly dishonest as part of a conspiracy to combat monotony. That said, some of their arguments are more than capable of being what could, I guess, be called illegitimate.

You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money.
And what do we infer this from, exactly? Because I accused a single woman of pandering to an audience through the use of particular words and rhetoric that do just that?

This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
I wasn't aware that pointing out that her arguments are poor is a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong. I'm not surprised at this point since I don't seem to be the only one ignoring things, though at least I'm not constantly misrepresenting people based upon that.

It is the argument that women should only hold certain opinions, or at least that they can't hold certain other opinions. It is not the argument that advances female empowerment or equality, it's the argument that stratifies women into "right" or "wrong".
That certainly is an argument about that. What wonderful, fanciful fantasies people have.

If that's not what you meant to say, you should find a different way to say what you mean.
Or maybe you could stop inferring wildly to the point where "I'll discount her opinion because it's poorly supported and filled with pandering rhetoric" is turned into "no woman is allowed to have an opinion contrary to mine!"

If you want to say you didn't say what I quoted, deal with your own conscience.
It's surprisingly easy to deal with a clean conscience.
Scow2 said:
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.
And, naturally, it can't possibly be that people at Disney happen to just want this on their own. They must have felt forced to by this pressure of background noise to do it. After all, it's going on all over the place and it'd be incredibly egotistical to assume that everyone in power agreed with your point of view that a 30 year old outfit needs to be constantly made and all female characters need to have big, noticeable boob-shaped armor bits on their chests.

Oh, and also prove it all, since you felt the need to ask me to prove that someone was being disingenuous.

Something I have a problem with in discussions of feminism (and this is an "External baggage" thing, not wholly related to this particular conversation) is when avoiding sexually-objectifying women moves from that to shaming and suppressing the female form. This came up in the Stormtrooper commander's armor. Stormtrooper men wear boobplate armor that reflects the underlying anatomy. Why don't stormtrooper women? This is a common thing in discussion of sci-fi/fantasy armors. (It doesn't help that some idiots think women have dicks over their ribcage instead of chests)
So because the Stormtrooper armor had slight bumps on their chest piece in the original, the female Stormtroopers should have boobs on it, for no other rhyme or reason than because that's the only way it can match the men's? Though, you'll note that the new movies (you know, where this commander you want to be walking around with stupid looking plastic boobs sticking out in front of her actually plays a role) have no bumps [http://www.moviesinfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/daniel-craig-stormtrooper-star-wars-force-awakens.jpg].

ThatOtherGirl said:
A cardinal sin? Wow, that's a bit over dramatic. I have no interest in forum sparing with you. Just thought you might want to know your ignorance of the issue was showing. You could just google it. I mean, if it was really something you were interested in beyond simply winning the argument at hand you would end up doing that anyway.
Hey, if you don't feel like performing the seemingly easy task of linking something from this well-covered year and a half long bit of public pressuring, that's okay. Though I wouldn't consider asking for links to be forum sparring.
 

Scow2

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I'm glad the new armor is consistent, but your dismissal of the female figure as 'stupid' is what I'm talking about.
 

Liana Kerzner

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Scow2 said:
I'm glad the new armor is consistent, but your dismissal of the female figure as 'stupid' is what I'm talking about.
I'm dismissing poorly designed armor that happens to overwhelmingly find its way to female characters. That you want to conflate that with the female figure is your issue. My issue is that it makes no sense from a practical standpoint, seems to be born out of complete ignorance of female anatomy, and is just so completely uninspired and boring at this point.

And that latter bit is the most annoying, because the idiots in charge of designing female armor up to this point have been so obsessed with making sure we're always aware of boobs, and that the female character always has a sexy armor design that they've taken what could have been an interesting design for a unique, stylistic armor and made it more common than armor that actually looks like actual armor. I shouldn't be impressed when I see a female character in something resembling real armor, but I am, and it's the fault of all the people who think that boobs are a necessary component of a female character's appearance no matter what she's actually wearing at the time.
 

crimson5pheonix

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LifeCharacter said:
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, it's okay. I just got feminism wrong. I thought it was about equality and empowerment. I was further confused by other people in the thread disagreeing with her without having to say that she's only pandering and doesn't actually believe what she's saying.
Well considering you think feminism is bowing to the opinions of any woman who uses words as if she were an infallible prophet of truth, I'd say you definitely got feminism wrong. You also seem to be imagining people writing words they haven't actually written, so your confusion makes sense.

LifeCharacter said:
So a family-oriented company deciding to retire a decades old outfit that fetishizes slavery from production apropos of no real pressuring from the public is "censorship" and anyone who dares think that the slave Leia outfit is anything but the most sacrosanct assortment of female-empowering fabric is a "counterfeit feminist"? Combined with an allusion to more serious issues, references to chastity-obsessed morality police, and cries of what about the mens! Someone's got an audience they want to pander to and the poor, cookie-cutter arguments to match!

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
 

Liana Kerzner

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LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
You HAVE said that she's pandering. You HAVE said that she's disingenuous. You HAVE said that her opinion can be ignored.
I wasn't aware pandering and disengenuous were now horrible charges that one must never level at anyone ever lest they wish to insist that they don't hold any of the opinions they're actually stating. Though let's be clear, she is very much pandering to the crowd of people who cheer every time someone criticizes the "morality police" and "censorship" and let's just say that I hope that she was being disingenuous when she used those arguments, because being sincere in there use is much worse. And I guess I said her opinion can be discounted, though I'm not sure why discounting (or ignoring) someone's opinion when it's supported poorly is bad.
So you're saying you know Liana K better than she herself does?

Or do you think it's insane that she doesn't sing in tune to what others have been saying?

Or is it just you're worried that people might start saying that Feminism can be self critical and isn't in fact a unified social class of people and that people might start to look and realise that in fact it never was the case as was seen with the two sides in the feminist porn wars?

Because it's just that, those attitudes being played out again. 2nd wave has somehow come back and now actual 3rd wave are arguing against it again.

Is it such a horrible situation for people not to have unified views to not "Listen and Believe" and take on blind faith to what some proclaimed leaders say just because it's for "The greater good"?

Is it really a terrible situation to believe some-one can both be pro sex and a feminist and maybe sex is a natural thing not some patriarchal monster that some of the more radical peoplep[footnote]https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/[/footnote] out there believe?


LifeCharacter said:
What we can INFER is that you do not believe that people can legitimately hold on to a view counter to yours.
Oh no, I very much believe people can legitimately hold a view counter to mine. I don't believe that all these people in the world who disagree with me are just being incredibly dishonest as part of a conspiracy to combat monotony. That said, some of their arguments are more than capable of being what could, I guess, be called illegitimate.
As are many of those pushing for it. It's funny people worry about the idea of sexualised figures. When I worked on a campsite we had some campers from Italy. Some of the stuff they said with their own kids about prompted some of the English campers to ask them to stop. The point they gave was that honestly it's an entirely different attitude they have to sex as do many other European countries. This was in the UK which is considered far less conservative than the US. In other words it's still a very conservative attitude being displayed by many in the US regarding sex. It's still got this stigma. It's still seen as to an extent Sinful in some areas of the US.

There's plenty of illegitimate arguments about. One of the most illegitimate it seems is that somehow kids are fine to be taught how sex is wrong, evil and sinful but not prepared for later in life and told about the idea of the age of consent and that when they're old enough (meeting the age of consent) they should feel free to make their choice about if they're ready and when they're ready and not feel ashamed of part of nature.


LifeCharacter said:
You do not believe a woman can hold on to this opinion unless it was for money.
And what do we infer this from, exactly? Because I accused a single woman of pandering to an audience through the use of particular words and rhetoric that do just that?

This is what counterfeit feminism is. Your argument is not a constructive one. It's not even an innocent disagreement. It's a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
I wasn't aware that pointing out that her arguments are poor is a destructive contradiction based on the idea that she is inherently wrong.
It is if the idea she's wrong came first and not after you looked over the arguments.


LifeCharacter said:
Scow2 said:
... that's not the sort of pressure we're talking about. It's not some easily-dismissed Internet Outrage Phenomenon that can be linked to through easily-ignored twitter hashtags and similar tizzying stupidity. It's the overall 'background noise' on how women are supposed to be depicted in media, going on all over the place. It's social pressure - such as that of the atmosphere or white noise, not social force, like a hammer. Not that I disagree with Disney's decision to end an unhealthy obsession over the costume.
And, naturally, it can't possibly be that people at Disney happen to just want this on their own. They must have felt forced to by this pressure of background noise to do it. After all, it's going on all over the place and it'd be incredibly egotistical to assume that everyone in power agreed with your point of view that a 30 year old outfit needs to be constantly made and all female characters need to have big, noticeable boob-shaped armor bits on their chests.
So what other 30 year old figure designs are they cancelling?
 

Liana Kerzner

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crimson5pheonix said:
If you didn't think those were horrible charges, why did you try saying that you didn't say them?
Why did I say that I didn't say she doesn't believe what she wrote? Mostly because I didn't. At least, from what I can tell, but you clearly see the truth of existence where I say the words that you ascribe to me.

If you think people can legitimately hold a counter position, why do you immediately assume she doesn't hold her opinion?
I immediately assumed she was pandering, which I guess in your mind that's intent on semantics despite not being very good at it means that I accused her of not really holding that opinion. It's a shame that you can easily pander while holding the opinion you're pandering too. I have no problem believing that Milo Yiannopoulas believes the vile bullshit that streams from his throat even if everything he says is pandering to the scum who read what he writes.

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
Except she was listened to. That's the thing you constantly brush over in your attempts to act as though I've just dismissed her out of hand for disagreeing with me. I listened to her and found her arguments to be terrible and unconvincing. But then I don't actually expect much from you at this point since you've once again decided that not thinking that this one particular woman's argument was shit and that she's pandering (especially through her word choice) to a certain audience means that I think that every woman doesn't believe their own opinion.
 

Liana Kerzner

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The_Kodu said:
So you're saying you know Liana K better than she herself does?
Not really, but just pretend I said yes. I expect people to do it now anyway, so might as well give my permission.

Or do you think it's insane that she doesn't sing in tune to what others have been saying?
I disagree with her position and find the arguments she uses to support her position to be poor, which is naturally read as exactly what you said.

I'm not really interested in your perspective on the workings of feminism and how the feminist wars are upon us because a woman called anyone who dares disagree with her about a fucking slave outfit a counterfeit feminist. But:

youdon'thavetobesexnegativetothinkthatslaveleiaisn'tthegreatestthingever,pullingsomerandombullshitblogandactingasthoughitsrepresentativeofsomethingmorethanthatonepersonispathetic,nooneeverclaimedfeminismwasunifiedandnotself-criticalbutkeeppretendingotherwiseitseemsfun,idon'tcareaboutwhatitalianssaidatyourcampsiteandwhatbeliefsyouwanttoascribetomeaboutsexed.

It is if the idea she's wrong came first and not after you looked over the arguments.
Well good thing I read her article first and then came to the idea that I disagreed with her and that her arguments didn't convince me otherwise. Though we should assume that I'm lying because you know me better than I do and you just know that I didn't actually bother to look over the actual arguments I've been talking about.

So what other 30 year old figure designs are they cancelling?
No idea, don't really care, but feel free to find out on your own.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
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LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
If you didn't think those were horrible charges, why did you try saying that you didn't say them?
Why did I say that I didn't say she doesn't believe what she wrote? Mostly because I didn't. At least, from what I can tell, but you clearly see the truth of existence where I say the words that you ascribe to me.

If you think people can legitimately hold a counter position, why do you immediately assume she doesn't hold her opinion?
I immediately assumed she was pandering, which I guess in your mind that's intent on semantics despite not being very good at it means that I accused her of not really holding that opinion. It's a shame that you can easily pander while holding the opinion you're pandering too. I have no problem believing that Milo Yiannopoulas believes the vile bullshit that streams from his throat even if everything he says is pandering to the scum who read what he writes.
LifeCharacter said:
crimson5pheonix said:
A bunch of people telling a woman that her opinion is bad or wrong or disingenuous. Is this what feminists are going on about?
Yes, as it turns out, feminism is about telling someone with bad, disingenuous arguments that they're wrong when they call anyone with a different opinion of a particular outfit a counterfeit feminist and rely on little more than what amounts to a checklist of anti-feminist rhetoric to support it. That she's a woman just means that we use feminine pronouns when addressing her.
Previous posts aside, I do actually know the meaning of disingenuous. I can read and comprehend your posts. Since you are denying up and down that you've said this, I suggested that you change the way you type.

And do you not see the problem with just assuming somebody shouldn't be listened to because you disagree with them? Do you not see the problem with just assuming a woman doesn't believe their own opinion? Isn't that what modern feminists have been talking about?
Except she was listened to. That's the thing you constantly brush over in your attempts to act as though I've just dismissed her out of hand for disagreeing with me. I listened to her and found her arguments to be terrible and unconvincing. But then I don't actually expect much from you at this point since you've once again decided that not thinking that this one particular woman's argument was shit and that she's pandering (especially through her word choice) to a certain audience means that I think that every woman doesn't believe their own opinion.
That doesn't change that your argument is poor and thinks less of women.