Why is it only Nintendo's new IPs that "don't count"?

[Hawki]

The people who went to see the movie are not just the same people who kept playing sonic videogames for all these years though. Not most of em anyhow. The movie did well because it was appealing to all the people who stopped playing sonic games too but who once played em back in the day. Also it got a lot of meme publicity which helped it since they redesigned sonic so people were willing to give it a chance as a gesture of support for their approach to fan criticism.

Is there a source for any of this? I mean, I saw the Sonic movie advertised heavily on the covers of children's magazines for instance. I doubt the movie was aiming for the "used to play Sonic" crowd, and I doubt that crowd could account for its financial success. It's akin to the argument that the MCU is meant for Marvel comic fans, when in reality, a large portion of the crowd would be people who'd never read a Marvel comic prior to that.

And while Mania was a fine game (cause it was made by fans and not sega) that doesn't undo all the terrible sonic games which people kept acting as though were good which was what I was referring to.

We're getting on shakey ground if you're going down the route of "people only pretend to like these games."

I've noticed that there was this train of thought that came around the time of Sonic Colours - the idea that there were no good games between S&K and Colours. What was even weirder was that this same argument came up when Generations came out. And again, with Mania, the idea that there was literally no good Sonic games between the Genesis era and the present. And okay, maybe some people genuinely believe that, but I'm curious as to the number of games people who make this argument have actually played.

Same thing with the comics, I'm sure they're fine, still nothing to do with the quality of the games though. You can have a good comic based on a game series that's gone to shit lol.

We were talking about Sonic, the character, not Sonic, the series.

It seems to be consensus that Marvel Comics went to hell in a handbasket, that didn't mean that characters like Spider-Man and the MCU roster didn't stop being popular in of themselves.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Well, are these new IP's capturing the public's interest? Doesn't really seem like it to me. I mean, Splatoon did a good job, but that's the only one I can think of. And isn't it Nintendo's M.O. to only make a new IP if it results in a completely different type of game? Meaning, no new action adventure IP, because that's Zelda's turf, and no new platfromer IP, because they already have Mario. If that's the case it's no surprise they aren't exactly drumming them out.

And it doesn't really seem to be an issue for Nintendo anyway. They're doing fine with the IP's they have, and the only time I see talk about whether or not they have enough new IP's is in threads like this.

I know you don't like most of Sony's recent output, but they ain't fake games. Unless we're talking The Order: 1886 or anything by David Cage/Quantic Dream. I'd sooner take most of Sony's or Nintendo's recent outputs over another Gears or Halo.

Even those aren't fake games. It's a dumb, smug insult.

 

[sXeth]

Out of that whole list, I would say I've kind of half-heard of Astral Chain and ARms, mostly from these forums I think.

That is while having multiple people in my regular game group with Switches, and regularly babysitting a nephew who also a switch, and with a smattering of social media friends that have them as well.


Thats not to say the other two are super great at it either. Knack, Ryse, that other xbox one .that was like... space robot salvage or something. Days Gone, Sunset Overdrive. That stuffs all there but you'd only get the barest fkicker of recognition from half the people who played on that console nevermind outside onlookers.


Its like Hardware Rivals. Hardware Rivals is a sony published twisted metal clone thing. Even playing on PS4, I'd bet no one has heard of or remembers Hardware Rivals other then we got it as one of the free games one month.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Even those aren't fake games. It's a dumb, smug insult.

Disco Elysium is just talking to people and it's better than like 99% of AAA games out there. While I'm not all a fan of David Cage games, there's more impactful player decisions in those "fake" games that a lot of "real" games. At least he tries.

Thats not to say the other two are super great at it either. Knack

 

[Casual Shinji]

Disco Elysium is just talking to people and it's better than like 99% of AAA games out there. While I'm not all a fan of David Cage games, there's more impactful player decisions in those "fake" games that a lot of "real" games. At least he tries.

Hey, I don't really care about David Cage games at all, but a videogame is a videogame and labelling it as a fake game comes across as a schoolyard insult. Just say you don't like it or you hate it. Done. As much as I hate Death Stranding you'll never find me saying it's a fake game, just a game I utterly despise.

 

[Hawki]

Well, are these new IP's capturing the public's interest? Doesn't really seem like it to me. I mean, Splatoon did a good job, but that's the only one I can think of. And isn't it Nintendo's M.O. to only make a new IP if it results in a completely different type of game? Meaning, no new action adventure IP, because that's Zelda's turf, and no new platfromer IP, because they already have Mario.

Except Kirbys' a platformer too, so...

I think you've kind of got a point, in that Nintendo's very much gameplay first, and gameplay in a sense that it has to be new, to an extent. Apparently we haven't got an F-Zero game in ages because they don't have a new idea. And when Star Fox was re-arranged round motion controls, the storyline was rebooted, AGAIN. Like, I get the irritation around annual releases like CoD, but it's not hard to see why some people would be irritated about the other end of the spectrum as well.

 

[BrawlMan]

Even those aren't fake games. It's a dumb, smug insult.

Okay...1886 and whatever David Cage does are still shit. The Order is literally a 6 hour movie with insa-death stealth (something that got ditched around the mid life 7th generation) and super basic cover mechanics when genre was really suffering fatigue. The shooting was not even good, and it's obvious Sony not going to do anything with it at this point. David Cage (the dude couldn't make it to Hollywood because he would be a laughing stock due his writing being that bad) has admitted he has hated game design in general, and claims his games are "cinematic" or whatever shit he's trying to sell. For being story focused games, the stories are all usally bad and not that well thought out. They're just worst version of the point and click games from old. Something many developers have done better than him. Cage himself is more smug and up his own ass than the statement I made. And I wasn't even trying to be smug either. But guess what, that what happens to games that think they can get by on graphics and not much else. If you do not have the gameplay to back it up or be remotely interesting, you going to age worse at a faster rate.

 

[Dreiko]

Is there a source for any of this? I mean, I saw the Sonic movie advertised heavily on the covers of children's magazines for instance. I doubt the movie was aiming for the "used to play Sonic" crowd, and I doubt that crowd could account for its financial success. It's akin to the argument that the MCU is meant for Marvel comic fans, when in reality, a large portion of the crowd would be people who'd never read a Marvel comic prior to that.



We're getting on shakey ground if you're going down the route of "people only pretend to like these games."

I've noticed that there was this train of thought that came around the time of Sonic Colours - the idea that there were no good games between S&K and Colours. What was even weirder was that this same argument came up when Generations came out. And again, with Mania, the idea that there was literally no good Sonic games between the Genesis era and the present. And okay, maybe some people genuinely believe that, but I'm curious as to the number of games people who make this argument have actually played.



We were talking about Sonic, the character, not Sonic, the series.

It seems to be consensus that Marvel Comics went to hell in a handbasket, that didn't mean that characters like Spider-Man and the MCU roster didn't stop being popular in of themselves.

The source is the sale numbers of the games compared to the ticket sale numbers of the movie. The movie was aiming for the "used to play or used to have heard about sonic" crowd, adding into in the meme crowd and the crowd that respects the choice they made in their redesigns.


And no, I didn't say people pretended to like the games. I said that they were delusional in thinking they were any good, similar to how someone is delusional by likening things like Nintendo Labo to Sony IPs and being confused about why those IPs don't get the same respect GoW4 or Horizon do. If you like em more power to ya, have fun lol.


I don't think that there were no good sonic games between genesis and mania, but I do think that the only good games that came out during that time-frame were on GBA and played like those genesis ones. (sonic advance or adventure or something? anyhow, those were fun) Also that one that played like a Jrpg (sonic and the black knight or something?) was decent too. Though I had prolly really low standards at the time I played it lol.

But when you start talking about those 3d ones or Shadow or the one where he turns into a werewolf and you have people try to claim those are just as respectable as other series of the time, yeah, that's what I'm pointing to.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Okay...1886 and whatever David Cage does are still shit. The Order is literally a 6 hour movie with insa-death stealth (something that got ditched around the mid life 7th generation) and super basic cover mechanics when genre was really suffering fatigue. The shooting was not even good, and it's obvious Sony not going to do anything with it at this point. David Cage (the dude couldn't make it to Hollywood because he would be a laughing stock due his writing being that bad) has admitted he has hated game design in general, and claims his games are "cinematic" or whatever shit he's trying to sell. For being story focused games, the stories are all usally bad and not that well thought out. They're just worst version of the point and click games from old. Something many developers have done better than him. Cage himself is more smug and up his own ass than the statement I made. And I wasn't even trying to be smug either. But guess what, that what happens to games that think they can get by on graphics and not much else. If you do not have the gameplay to back it up or be remotely interesting, you going to age worse at a faster rate.

I wasn't really refering to you with that comment, but the person you quoted. Games can be good, mediocre, or shit, but they're still games regardless of whether or not someone dislikes them. The Emoji Movie is no less a movie than There Will Be Blood.

 

[Hawki]

The source is the sale numbers of the games compared to the ticket sale numbers of the movie.

And those numbers are?

I can't find hard numbers on the recent games, but a movie selling more than games isn't out of the ordinary. If anything, it's standard - movies sell more than games because they're cheaper and less niche.

I don't think that there were no good sonic games between genesis and mania, but I do think that the only good games that came out during that time-frame were on GBA and played like those genesis ones. (sonic advance or adventure or something? anyhow, those were fun) Also that one that played like a Jrpg (sonic and the black knight or something?) was decent too. Though I had prolly really low standards at the time I played it lol.

The JRPG one was Sonic Chronicles.

But if you want me to list the "good" Sonic games between the Genesis era and present, I'd go:

-Sonic Adventure
-Sonic Adventure 2
-Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (as a combined game, and with Ep. 2 doing most of the legwork)
-Sonic Generations
-Sonic Rush
-Sonic Rush Adventure
-Sonic Riders
-Sonic Battle

And again, these are the "good" games, not including the "average" ones.

But when you start talking about those 3d ones or Shadow or the one where he turns into a werewolf and you have people try to claim those are just as respectable as other series of the time, yeah, that's what I'm pointing to.

"The 3D ones" is a broad statement. Stuff like Shadow doesn't belong in the same category as, say, Generations. One bad 3D game doesn't make them all bad, and one good 3D game doesn't make them all good. Also, Sonic Unleashed seems to have had a comeback in recent years, with lots of people now claiming it's their favourite, but I haven't played enough of it to say. But no-one's claiming that stuff like Shadow or Sonic 06 are the peak of the 3D series. Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 though? They were big at the time. The whole "Sonic was never good" thing came in long after those games were released. Round about the time when the 3D games were on the upswing again with Sonic Colours.

 

[Dalisclock]

Because the console wars never ended, they've just becomes progressively stupider.

Because adults have never even heard of those games. I can't imagine most people come home from their 12 hour shift and play Nintendo Labo.

Not that that's a criticism. Like I've said before, Nintendo fills an extremely important niche, introducing children to video games at a young age, before they move on to more mature, artistic titles, Like Shadow of the Colossus, or Bloodborne.

Wait, are you trying to say 5 year olds aren't mature enough to play Bloodborne?

Heresy!

 

[BrawlMan]

Wait, are you trying to say 5 year olds aren't mature enough to play Bloodborne?

Heresy!

And yet I've seen some five or six year olds think they're mature enough to play Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, or Gears of War. And a good amount of these parents are dumb enough to buy the stuff for them. I remember when a mother was concerned about the contents of Dark Souls 3, yet she lets her teenage son play Call of Duty all the time. I even told her, if you let your son play those games than he's already seen worse. The kids still picked up Black Ops II because he got scared of Dark Souls 3 difficulty, even though he claimed to play 1 and 2.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It's generally because if you're a Serious Gamer playing Serious Games you become allergic to light-hearted color.
Plus the whole "doesn't have competing IP in same genres" thing. Why split the fan base with a new IP cart racer when Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is putting up Call of Duty Numbers? Mario and Kirby are two platformers with wildly different play styles, can you think of a third type of platformer that fits the Nintey aesthetic? Splatoon 2 was literally the best selling game in Japan for years, etc, etc, etc.
Especially now that they've broken their third party curse and have a slew of exclusive games and more accessible pc ports filling the gaps

That said, I'd love a version of Dragalia Lost on the Switch. Speaking of first party titles

 

[Gordon_4]

And yet I've seen some five or six year olds think they're mature enough to play Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, or Gears of War. And a good amount of these parents are dumb enough to buy the stuff for them. I remember when a mother was concerned about the contents of dark souls 3, yet she lets her teenage son play Call of Duty all the time. I even told her, if you let your son play those games than he's already seen worse. The kids still picked up Black ops II because he got scared of dark souls 3 difficulty, even though he claimed to play 1 and 2.

See this is one reason I loooove the Australian rating system - of not its methodology. Once the R18+ rating was extended to games, all forms of media came under the same scheme; so sure parents may not understand the nuanced content of a game but they understand that certain ratings are not for kids.

Its not perfect since there are always parents who are some combination of just pathologically stupid, slack, unobservant or all three. or there will be older brothers and sisters willing to subvert mum and dad's rule as part of teenage rebellion etc etc.

 

[Aiddon]

Because the console wars never ended, they've just becomes progressively stupider.

And they were never based on logic, they were based on visceral feeling. I mean, geez, there are STILL people seething over Nintendo opening up gaming with the DS and Wii, thus ruining the boy's club mentality the medium had run on for decades.

 

[BrawlMan]

I mean, geez, there are STILL people seething over Nintendo opening up gaming with the DS and Wii, thus ruining the boy's club mentality the medium had run on for decades.

People are still pissed off about that? Jesus, how long they're gonna hold that grudge?! Until their well in to their 60s or 70s? They need to get over themselves.

 

[Hawki]

And they were never based on logic, they were based on visceral feeling. I mean, geez, there are STILL people seething over Nintendo opening up gaming with the DS and Wii, thus ruining the boy's club mentality the medium had run on for decades.

I get the Wii complaint, but what about the DS? I don't recall any outrage over that.

Anyway, I don't dislike the Wii for getting a new audience. I dislike it for its insistence on motion controls.

 

[BrawlMan]

I get the Wii complaint, but what about the DS? I don't recall any outrage over that.

The DS was killing the PSP in America and Europe, so that is where most of the outrage came from. Also, the DS opened a bigger avenue for puzzle games than all of the Gameboy's combined, and women are known to play puzzle games more often than men. So there ya go.

 

[Aiddon]

I get the Wii complaint, but what about the DS? I don't recall any outrage over that.

Anyway, I don't dislike the Wii for getting a new audience. I dislike it for its insistence on motion controls.

No, the DS got TONS of flack from people whining that it was an underpowered system and that the PSP was going to steamroll it. It's utterly embarrassing to see those predictions in hindsight.

As for the Wii, this is the reality: you can't separate one from the other. The reason it expanded to new audiences was precisely because of the motion controls. Because it kept things simple and cheap while the 360 and PS3 were losing hundreds of millions chasing after golden geese. And whining about motion controls has always and WILL always be dumb. It is stupid, elitist, pissbaby thinking that was dumb back then and even dumber now considering how motion control is still around.

 

[Hawki]

No, the DS got TONS of flack from people whining that it was an underpowered system and that the PSP was going to steamroll it. It's utterly embarrassing to see those predictions in hindsight.

The reason it expanded to new audiences was precisely because of the motion controls. Because it kept things simple and cheap while the 360 and PS3 were losing hundreds of millions chasing after golden geese. And whining about motion controls has always and WILL always be dumb. It is stupid, elitist, pissbaby thinking that was dumb back then and even dumber now considering how motion control is still around.

Not sure what timeline we live in where motion controls are "simpler" than a standard controller, and when the Wii's motion controls are so finnicky, but, sure. It's elitist to want a control scheme where I'm not fighting against the game, to pick up my movements.