"Why not just watch porn?"

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

I don't care about tits in anime, really, but don't defend it like it's some great display of artistic integrity.

Who's doing that?

Shia-Neko-Chan is, or at least definitely seems to be. Sorry to call you out man, but I'm with this one.

I could make a longer post, but I find that I really don't have to.

All that needs to be said is that it's fine if you don't like ecchi, but to imply that works with it included are less sincere or the artists who included it have less integrity or created their work simply to make cheap money is wrong, because it could have always been in their original vision for the work they created. They could have always been true to what they wanted to create in the first place.

My point is that just because it was in their original vision doesn't make it good. Art is made to be consumed and thus is only as good or as valuable as the consumer deems it. If an aspect is loved by the creator, but disliked by everyone else, then it is not a good aspect. Now whether or not fan service is a valuable aspect depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which being personal taste, but the artists intention is not one of those factors. Artists can be wrong, even about their own work.

Of course, they have every right to put in whatever they want. They could replace the main character with a talking tampon. And we have every right to tell them how shit their art is and how their vision is dumb.

I didn't say it made it good, even if that really is subjective in the end. o_o

That isn't the point of what I said or have been saying this entire time.

 

[Lieju]

Sexuality in a show means it can't be taken seriously. Gotcha.

This sort of thinking really limits what sorts of art people might create.

It's the same as the FullMetal Alchemist example. With comedy, it can still be taken seriously. Replace the comedy with ecchi and OOOOH NOOOOO WE CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

Why should there be a difference?

There isn't necessarily, but anime (and video-games) don't generally have a good track-record with handling sexuality in a way that's not distracting.

You mentioned Fullmetal alchemist, for example. In it, the comic relief isn't just there to get cheap laughs, it tells us something about the characters, and gives us time to breathe between serious/dramatic stuff.

In quite a lot of anime (especially when it's aimed at kids) the sexuality is handled in a way that does disservice to the characterization, is just there, or is downright uncomfortable. (as it's often about underage girls or rapey)

Both comic relief and sex should be presented in a way that fits. If the comic relief in Fullmetal alchemist would have been characters acting out of character just for the sake of a cheap joke, or randomly farting, that would take away from it.

Personally, I don't mind a series that's clearly just about the cheap titullation, it's far more annoying when it interfers with an otherwise great series. (I'm looking at you, One piece)

 

[Mausthemighty]

Part of the reason I don't like Ecchi, is that the fanservice becomes the main selling point of the series. After all, who needs compelling characters, nice scenery a wonderful crafted story with great plottwists when you can have boob grabbing, pantyshots, nipslips and suggestive scenes? I hate it when that happens. Mind you, I don't mind boobs/nudity when it's functional to the story. I also don't mind nudity at all.

The thing with ecchi is: it's the soft porn equivalent of anime, where the hardcore porn equivalent of anime is hentai.
If I want a good story I watch anime. If I want to see animated porn I'll watch hentai.
Ecchi is redundant; not needed.

It's Coca Cola Zero. Zero Sugar, Zero Taste!

 

[EbonBehelit]

Sexuality in a show means it can't be taken seriously. Gotcha.

This sort of thinking really limits what sorts of art people might create.

It's the same as the FullMetal Alchemist example. With comedy, it can still be taken seriously. Replace the comedy with ecchi and OOOOH NOOOOO WE CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

Why should there be a difference?

The fundamental problem with fan-service/ecchi is that, while objectified and played up for sex appeal, such characters are very rarely actually sexual. It's even rarer for the sex act itself to play even a minor role in the show. It makes the whole thing shallow and meaningless - played solely for show and eyecandy.

Ecchi isn't 'sexuality'. It's essentially a juvenile way of alluding to sex - without the issue of getting censors in a knot by actually having sex in your show.

It's also amusing (to me) that you'd use FMA as an example, considering I pretty much CAN'T take Brotherhood seriously - every time the show sets a decent mood/tone, it breaks it by having characters making ridiculous anime reactions. It's a shame really, because I LOVED the original FMA, but Brotherhood took the wackiness too far.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Sexuality in a show means it can't be taken seriously. Gotcha.

This sort of thinking really limits what sorts of art people might create.

It's the same as the FullMetal Alchemist example. With comedy, it can still be taken seriously. Replace the comedy with ecchi and OOOOH NOOOOO WE CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

Why should there be a difference?

There isn't necessarily, but anime (and video-games) don't generally have a good track-record with handling sexuality in a way that's not distracting.

You mentioned Fullmetal alchemist, for example. In it, the comic relief isn't just there to get cheap laughs, it tells us something about the characters, and gives us time to breathe between serious/dramatic stuff.

In quite a lot of anime (especially when it's aimed at kids) the sexuality is handled in a way that does disservice to the characterization, is just there, or is downright uncomfortable. (as it's often about underage girls or rapey)

Both comic relief and sex should be presented in a way that fits. If the comic relief in Fullmetal alchemist would have been characters acting out of character just for the sake of a cheap joke, or randomly farting, that would take away from it.

Personally, I don't mind a series that's clearly just about the cheap titullation, it's far more annoying when it interfers with an otherwise great series. (I'm looking at you, One piece)

While some of it's there to tell us something about the characters, a lot of the comedy in FMA actually is just there to be comedy (TINY MINISKIRTS!!!!!!!). It's as you said, comic relief. It's there to give a breather. It's certainly not needed in FMA, but it's there to be entertaining. It's no different, really.

I can't think of any anime that were made worse by the inclusion of ecchi. For me anyway, but that just goes back to what I was saying about me being able to just take in the entire experience. I can take in story, ecchi, and everything else at the same time. If an anime is boring, it's boring. If it's fun, it's fun.

 

[MahouSniper]

With the example of Fullmetal Alchemist, imagine if the comedy in the show was instead replaced with Ed just farting on Al, Terrance and Phillip style. That's what the ecchi in HSOTD feels like to me. It feels just as relevant and just as appropriate.

 

[Anomynous 167]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!). Women with nice features isn't porn. Women being seductive/playful isn't porn either. Maybe that is one of the reasons people watch it. To see something they DO like without having to see something they DON'T like?

I've always been under the impression that porn is anything you can masturbate to. If porn means 'naked people' or 'people fucking' then I can honestly say I've never deliberately watched porn before in my life. Aren't I a good boy?

Aye, 3 "Porn" tropes that I have found major turn-offs for me... Nudity? The sight of nipples and pooholes I find utterly disgusting... Lesbians? Not only am I hobophobic, but I prefer to be titalised by those I have a more reaslistic chance of making out with (e.g. Tinkerbell)... Spouses? I find the notion of being sent into a lake of fire for all eternity, as a result of breaking one of the 10 commandments, to be rather unerrotic.

 

[magter3001]

Because some great animes have been stunted by the sheer stupid amount of fan service. My favored example:

High School of the Dead

Now I loved HSD. However, the amount of fan service is so extreme in that show that it just seems like it'd be much easier to cut out the middle man and go to midgetsandgiraffesmakingtenderlove.com (...or a different site >.> <.<)

Frankly, I found it incredibly distracting. While I liked the anime a lot, I just plain feel uncomfortable sharing this particular anime with friends.

I'm not going to tell creators what to do with their shows/games or judge the fans since I'm aware that this is just kind of a trope of anime. However, I think they need to realize that they are isolating a lot of potential viewers (or in my case, causing a fan like myself not trying to get others to give the show a shot).

EDIT: Here is one of the funniest (or saddest pending your view point) of HSD fan-service. Ladies and Gentlemen...I present to you...

Spoiler: Matrix Boobs

...yeah....that just happened. Feel free to take a minute to clean up all the brain from your mind exploding.

The funniest anime piece I've ever seen. Especially when the guy said "Missed". Oh boy, that was lol-atafic.

 

[cyber95]

But nope. According to the Internet, its just that these people apparently know enough to work Youtube or a PS3 but can't figure out how to work Google.

You do realize that to properly utilize Google, and any other search engine for that matter, that you have to use proper spelling, don't you? That immediately disqualifies at least half (rough, generous estimate) of the internet users.

Counterpoint: No you really don't need to know how to spell.

Spoiler: Google always knows what you mean.

 

[Anomynous 167]

With the example of Fullmetal Alchemist, imagine if the comedy in the show was instead replaced with Ed just farting on Al, Terrance and Phillip style. That's what the ecchi in HSOTD feels like to me. It feels just as relevant and just as appropriate.

Considering that the fart jokes were kinda the whole point of Terrance and Phillips, I am imagining that you are implying that it would feel very relivant indeed.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Sexuality in a show means it can't be taken seriously. Gotcha.

This sort of thinking really limits what sorts of art people might create.

It's the same as the FullMetal Alchemist example. With comedy, it can still be taken seriously. Replace the comedy with ecchi and OOOOH NOOOOO WE CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

Why should there be a difference?

The fundamental problem with fan-service/ecchi is that, while objectified and played up for sex appeal, such characters are very rarely actually sexual. It's even rarer for the sex act itself to play even a minor role in the show. It makes the whole thing shallow and meaningless - played solely for show and eyecandy.

Essentially what you're saying is it's just there for entertainment. Just like comedy in an otherwise dramatic show.

The thing is, we're watching to be entertained. We want to be given an experience, so I don't see anything wrong with ecchi or comedy, because I still understand what's going on. I can still just watch the show and have fun. I'm still being delivered an experience.

Ecchi isn't 'sexuality'. It's essentially a juvenile way of alluding to sex - without the issue of getting censors in a knot by actually having sex in your show.

You're seriously saying that if they could just have the characters have sex, they'd do it? You mean like Yosuga no Sora?

They could have the characters have sex if they wanted to. Yosuga no Sora proves that. They just don't because that isn't the artist's intent. Again, you, like other people in this thread, are making assumptions just because of the inclusion of ecchi.

Now I think I heard that what you've explained is what it started out as, but it's turned into a form of entertainment in itself since then.

I'm not sure why you call it juvenile, though. It's clearly there for adults, unless you're one of those guys who thinks that any work that includes fun sexuality (or ecchi since you don't seem to think they're the same thing for some reason) is for children and that you're "above" it. I find that position kind of nonsensical.

It's also amusing (to me) that you'd use FMA as an example, considering I pretty much CAN'T take Brotherhood seriously - every time the show sets a decent mood/tone, it breaks it by having characters making ridiculous anime reactions. It's a shame really, because I LOVED the original FMA, but Brotherhood took the wackiness too far.

Your position is rare, though. So you don't like comedy in FMA, but most people would accept the comedy, which they have in Brotherhood's case, but not ecchi.

Basically if you're the kind of person who treats comedy and ecchi similarly, then my post probably wasn't directed at you. While I don't get why you can't just take in the entire experience, it probably just means you're selective in what you want to watch. You're looking for a specific kind of show.

As long as you're not the kind of person who says "Just go watch porn" and tries to say that ecchi "shouldn't exist" when you could easily watch something else, I can't find anything wrong with your position on it.

With the example of Fullmetal Alchemist, imagine if the comedy in the show was instead replaced with Ed just farting on Al, Terrance and Phillip style. That's what the ecchi in HSOTD feels like to me. It feels just as relevant and just as appropriate.

So essentially what you're saying is that it's extremely appropriate, considering vulgarity and fart jokes were Terrance and Phillip's entire point?

 

[mrverbal]

I think all I need to say here is: Bingo.

http://geekfeminism.org/2011/11/03/quick-hit-sexism-in-games-bingo/

 

[Lieju]

While some of it's there to tell us something about the characters, a lot of the comedy in FMA actually is just there to be comedy (TINY MINISKIRTS!!!!!!!). It's as you said, comic relief. It's there to give a breather. It's certainly not needed in FMA, but it's there to be entertaining. It's no different, really.

I can't think of any anime that were made worse by the inclusion of ecchi. For me anyway, but that just goes back to what I was saying about me being able to just take in the entire experience. I can take in story, ecchi, and everything else at the same time. If an anime is boring, it's boring. If it's fun, it's fun.

The whole 'tiny miniskirts!'-thing, while very silly, still is in-character, and is a part of the womanizing image Mustang works hard to keep up. By doing that and making a joke about it he is masking his true goals and motivations.

But for example in many shonen-series, the female characters can't have cool moments or bad-ass fights, they get fanservice fights where they get molested. That takes away from the experience for me.

What you're saying, basically that either you like something or you don't, which is true, but whether you like something or not depends on a lot of stuff, and you can analyze it.
Just like you can criticize a story for having comic relief that interferes with the story and takes away from the drama.

I'd like to have sexuality in stuff, but it would be nice if it was more smart that just 'here, have some boobs!'.

 

[MahouSniper]

Okay, I didn't think I'd have to clarify this, and I'm also pretty sure you're both being intentionally obtuse, but whatever.

No shit it's appropriate in Terrance and Phillip. Except I'm not talking about Terrance and Phillip, now am I? I'm talking about Fullmetal Alchemist. So do you think Ed randomly farting on people and calling it comedy would be the proper mood in FMA? Or do you think maybe it would feel excessive and take away from the overall experience?

Do you honestly think that style of humor would fit in FMA? Do you think those jokes would be appropriate? Because if you do, you are so woefully bad at media analysis that you're not worth having a discussion with.

Never mind the fact that Terrance and Phillip are made to be intentionally bad as parody. It's not supposed to actually be good comedy. But that also seems to have been lost on you.

 

[wulf3n]

Okay, I didn't think I'd have to clarify this, and I'm also pretty sure you're both being intentionally obtuse, but whatever.

No shit it's appropriate in Terrance and Phillip. Except I'm not talking about Terrance and Phillip, now am I? I'm talking about Fullmetal Alchemist. So do you think Ed randomly farting on people and calling it comedy would be the proper mood in FMA? Or do you think maybe it would feel excessive and take away from the overall experience?

Do you honestly think that style of humor would fit in FMA? Do you think those jokes would be appropriate? Because if you do, you are so woefully bad at media analysis that you're not worth having a discussion with.

Never mind the fact that Terrance and Phillip are made to be intentionally bad as parody. It's not supposed to actually be good comedy. But that also seems to have been lost on you.

I think it's a case of "Relevant" is in the eye of the beholder, though I don't wish to put words in others mouths.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

While some of it's there to tell us something about the characters, a lot of the comedy in FMA actually is just there to be comedy (TINY MINISKIRTS!!!!!!!). It's as you said, comic relief. It's there to give a breather. It's certainly not needed in FMA, but it's there to be entertaining. It's no different, really.

I can't think of any anime that were made worse by the inclusion of ecchi. For me anyway, but that just goes back to what I was saying about me being able to just take in the entire experience. I can take in story, ecchi, and everything else at the same time. If an anime is boring, it's boring. If it's fun, it's fun.

The whole 'tiny miniskirts!'-thing, while very silly, still is in-character, and is a part of the womanizing image Mustang works hard to keep up. By doing that and making a joke about it he is masking his true goals and motivations.

But for example in many shonen-series, the female characters can't have cool moments or bad-ass fights, they get fanservice fights where they get molested. That takes away from the experience for me.

What you're saying, basically that either you like something or you don't, which is true, but whether you like something or not depends on a lot of stuff, and you can analyze it.
Just like you can criticize a story for having comic relief that interferes with the story and takes away from the drama.

I'd like to have sexuality in stuff, but it would be nice if it was more smart that just 'here, have some boobs!'.

The thing about the Tiny Miniskirts joke is that we already knew that about him at the time. It didn't tell us anything new. It was just unneeded as they could have just stayed dramatic and we would have known just as much, but not had the random bit of comedy. But like I said, it was there to be entertaining and entertain is exactly what it did. It wasn't even a deep or thought-provoking joke, but it did it's job just fine. People still take the show seriously, despite things like that.

As for your comment about smarter ecchi, it can be entertaining and I'd like to see it, but I feel like regular ecchi is fine, too.

It kind reminds me of the whole intelligent comedy vs comedy that doesn't actively try to be intelligent (ecchi and comedy really are completely analogous when it comes to their inclusion in art). If they both make you laugh, there isn't any reason to only seek out one of them, but some people want to only watch "intelligent" comedy to make themselves seem smarter than those who don't (You know the kind. "Haw haw, is for the lowest common denominator. and is for intelligent people. Too bad you don't understand it like I do!").

I don't know if you're that type, it just reminded me of that kind of person. It's fine if regular ecchi just doesn't appeal to your tastes. I just hope you're not looking for "smarter ecchi" just because you want it to look better to outside viewers. Isn't that a waste of your time?

Actually, I'm curious. What is smarter ecchi to you? Any examples?

 

[EbonBehelit]

You're seriously saying that if they could just have the characters have sex, they'd do it? You mean like Yosuga no Sora?

They could have the characters have sex if they wanted to. Yosuga no Sora proves that. They just don't because that isn't the artist's intent. Again, you, like other people in this thread, are making assumptions just because of the inclusion of ecchi.

Now I think I heard that what you've explained is what it started out as, but it's turned into a form of entertainment in itself since then.

I'm not sure why you call it juvenile, though. It's clearly there for adults, unless you're one of those guys who thinks that any work that includes fun sexuality (or ecchi since you don't seem to think they're the same thing for some reason) is for children and that you're "above" it. I find that position kind of nonsensical.

Yosuga no Soru, Fate/Stay Night etc, are Adult Visual Novels with an intended adult audience. There's also usually a heavy romance/drama element, so sexuality and sex aren't out of place - even if only alluded to.

I have no problem with shows containing sexual elements if there's a reason for it. The reason I find ecchi juvenile is because - as far as I'm concerned - the target audience for it is teenage boys. Adults don't usually (culture pending) find sex/sexuality to be something to avoid referring to in entertainment - it's one of our greatest urges as people, so leaving it out of serious character drama tends to make such characters feel almost non-human.

I love my Lord of the Rings, but the characters will never be as 'real' as those in A Song of Ice and Fire, for example.

Your position is rare, though. So you don't like comedy in FMA, but most people would accept the comedy, which they have in Brotherhood's case, but not ecchi.

Basically if you're the kind of person who treats comedy and ecchi similarly, then my post probably wasn't directed at you. While I don't get why you can't just take in the entire experience, it probably just means you're selective in what you want to watch. You're looking for a specific kind of show.

As long as you're not the kind of person who says "Just go watch porn" and tries to say that ecchi "shouldn't exist" when you could easily watch something else, I can't find anything wrong with your position on it.

I loved everything about FMA, even the comedy, because it was all extremely well paced and executed. As I said before though, for some reason I can't get into Brotherhood due to how jarring the changes in tone are.

For reference, my favourite anime/manga is One Piece, followed closely by Berserk. Take that as you will.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Yosuga no Soru, Fate/Stay Night etc, are Adult Visual Novels with an intended adult audience. There's also usually a heavy romance/drama element, so sexuality and sex aren't out of place - even if only alluded to.

I have no problem with shows containing sexual elements if there's a reason for it. The reason I find ecchi juvenile is because - as far as I'm concerned - the target audience for it is teenage boys. Adults don't usually (culture pending) find sex/sexuality to be something to avoid referring to in entertainment - it's one of our greatest urges as people, so leaving it out of serious character drama tends to make such characters feel almost non-human.

Ah, but you see, you've got it all wrong. It's not being 'avoided' but explored (or at least attempting to) in more creative ways than simply having a women and a man go at it. It's meant to be a fun and different way to explore sexuality, you see.

Wouldn't it get boring if every single time sexuality were referred to in fiction, it was the same old "I'm going to have sex with her" as the last story?

 

[garjian]

Yesterday, I saw somebody eating an ice cream, and I thought, "Why don't they just eat a daily nutrients pill?".

Different genres exist.
Try to understand that.

 

[INF1NIT3 D00M]

For me, it really comes down to how it's presented. Anime is much like other forms of film, in that there are "highbrow" and "lowbrow" examples, as well as a wide range of middle ground. When sexuality is included because human beings do on occasion indulge in sexual activity, and such activity currently serves the narrative, then I'm fine with it. When someone's holding down schoolgirl A, firing a high caliber rifle between the legs and breasts of schoolgirl B, causing schoolgirl A to emit strange orgasm-like exclamations, I'm not inclined to believe I'm watching high-brow entertainment. Now, having never really seen the show, and being pretty familiar with Zombie-related media, I'm going to assume I'll be told that the real draw of the show is the human interaction between survivors.
To that, I'll ask you "Why not just watch The Walking Dead, if breasts and the like aren't the draw?"
I don't have a problem with High School of the Dead (and similar anime/manga). Just because this particular example is not high-brow art neither means that it's not art, nor that it's bad art. If I were to tell you that it's bad art, that only means as much as you let it. Even me telling you that it's not a high-brow example of the genre is wholly my opinion.

I understand why you watch anime with these elements in them. I understand what it's like to be asked why you don't just watch porn. We don't really get a say in what the artists do with their series,and there's usually something else keeping us watching. I'm right there with you. What I don't get is why the artists bother with these elements, or why they get so much screen time. If the artist wants to draw large-busted women getting eaten by zombies, more power to him. If you want to watch a good zombie drama, I can get behind that. Hell, if you're looking for some zombie-on-schoolgirl action, who am I to judge with MY google history? What baffles me is what drives the artist to take his zombie drama, add tons of large-breasted women, focus every camera angle for maximum cleavage and upskirt action, and then stop short of them all whipping out the goods and having an orgy. What drives them into that gray area? It's not that the anime is distract-ing, it's that the anime feels distract-ed. It's as if the animator was in the middle of drawing a serious character drama, when he's overcome with lust and starts doodling large-busted women all over his paper. Maybe I like peas OR mashed potatoes, and here this guy is mixing it all together and calling it stew. I'm here for some peas; Or, if I'm feeling frisky, some mashed potatoes. When I'm watching stuff like High School of the Dead, I get ticked sometimes because the breasts break up the interesting character drama, and when I'm frisky the character drama drones on and on when I'm just fast-forwarding to the part where everyone gets naked and a bunch of voice actors are paid to "make sex noises, or something".

What really irks me is that the guy in tippy2k2's clip missed a whole crowd of shambling zombies, despite having good enough aim to fire between the legs and breasts of a moving target. He fires like five times, it's both a miracle that he missed his comrade that many times and completely baffling that he didn't even so much as clip a zombie in the shoulder. There's a whole crowd to choose from, and he finds the one tiny patch of open air through which he can miss. Unbelievable, even in the show's own context.