"Why not just watch porn?"

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Wouldn't it get boring if every single time sexuality were referred to in fiction, it was the same old "I'm going to have sex with her" as the last story?

Indeed. They should totally BEGIN with "I'm going to have sex with her" and have the rest of the story dealing with the aftermath

sooooo... Having a kid? XD

Wait, isn't that basically "Son of the mask" or "Baby Blues"? XD

 

[xplosive59]

It is rare that I see an anime with any fan service, that is probably just my choices but I don't feel as though this is a massive problem in anime as a whole. The worst thing is when people say "I have only seen High School of The Dead and I have come to the conclusion that all anime is porn" which I have heard multiple times.

 

[Piorn]

People like to hate what they see at first glance, not what it's actually about.
That's why HL2 greyed the blood in germany, but kept the shooting people in the face, and and somehow that was less violent.
Or how Dead Space wasn't cut at all, because it doesn't "look like humans".
And every child over the age of 4 knows what word is behind the censor beeps anyways.

It's just people attacking things in the most superficial way possible.

 

[KeyMaster45]

Because some great animes have been stunted by the sheer stupid amount of fan service. My favored example:

High School of the Dead

Now I loved HSD. However, the amount of fan service is so extreme in that show that it just seems like it'd be much easier to cut out the middle man and go to midgetsandgiraffesmakingtenderlove.com (...or a different site >.> <.<)

Frankly, I found it incredibly distracting. While I liked the anime a lot, I just plain feel uncomfortable sharing this anime with friends.

I'm not going to tell creators what to do with their shows/games or judge the fans since I'm aware that this is just kind of a trope of anime. However, I think they need to realize that they are isolating a lot of potential viewers (or in my case, causing a fan like myself not trying to get others to give the show a shot).

Perfect example. I didn't mind some of the more funny bits they did (to the point where it bordered on parody), but a lot of it just came off as... creepy...

There were more than a few scenes from that anime that had me rolling my eyes thinking, "Get on with it!"

It's worth pointing out that the creator of high school of the dead is a well-known hentai manga author/artist, or so my friend informed me so many years ago, and that HS of the Dead was them seeing how far they could push the fan service envelop. Point being, that it is not an anime meant to be taken seriously in any capacity, and really is borderline softcore porn with heavy amounts of gore thrown in because reasons; hence scenes like the matrix boobs.

In this particular instance the duck barking like a dog is in fact doing so just to mess with us, and not because it wishes it was a dog.

 

[Lieju]

Even still, though. The joke was still unneeded, as are a lot of the jokes in that series. That was the point I was trying to make.

How do you define 'unneeded'?
It wasn't totally divorced from rest of the series, and it was part of the overall-tone. You could remove one fight-scene and the series could still work, so does it mean fight-scenes were 'unneeded'?

Now, if Mustang had no characterization otherwise, and nothing to do with the story, and was in just for that one joke, it would be far different.

That does sound nice, but I think it might be rare because it's a difference in culture.

It would probably happen in cartoons more often if other countries were more willing to include ecchi in their cartoons.

Or if sex and sexualisation was handled in a more mature way. Cultural differences don't mean freedom from criticism.

There's also the problem of lumping together sex and sexual violence.
Every time someone criticises depiction of rape in something they get a ton of comments accusing them of being some kind of prude. When in fact prudishness is the reason why rape is so often handled so badly in media.

Depicting rape is somehow more acceptable than consensual sex in countries lke US. (And because depicting women having sexual freedom is just creepy, apparently.)

 

[rob_simple]

You realize HOTD would not exist were it not for the tits? People can't sit there and say it would be better without them because it wouldn't EXIST without them. So no, it could not be better.

Um, I don't know about the anime, but I remember the manga being perfectly fine without constant tits; there's plenty there to keep me titillated, otherwise. (Do you see what I did there?)

OT: I didn't really understand the OP, but from what I can gather he/she is upset that we're saying it's perverted to put boobs and crotch shots in anime --or any form of media-- when it doesn't need to be there?

I'll be honest, I can think of probably a ten or twenty examples off the top of my head of games or animes that I've been put off of by the unnecessary forcing of fan service on the player/viewer. If it is put in the show/game purely to arouse, then, yeah, you should just watch porn; I don't need that stuff in my other media unless it's in context, which it almost never is.

As a very mild example, I just finished playing Prototype 2, and there was one scene where Heller is talking to a woman and she takes this ridiculous pose to access a laptop, just so the camera can linger on her arse. It was utterly ridiculous, unnecessary, out of context considering the fucking bleak tone of the game and just made me think, 'this is why people still dismiss video games as adolescent fantasy for teenage boys.'

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Even still, though. The joke was still unneeded, as are a lot of the jokes in that series. That was the point I was trying to make.

How do you define 'unneeded'?
It wasn't totally divorced from rest of the series, and it was part of the overall-tone. You could remove one fight-scene and the series could still work, so does it mean fight-scenes were 'unneeded'?

Now, if Mustang had no characterization otherwise, and nothing to do with the story, and was in just for that one joke, it would be far different.

Unneeded as in it didn't tell us anything more about his character that we didn't already know. He didn't grow as a result. His character wasn't developed any further. The story wasn't brought forward at all. The joke was solely there to entertain. That doesn't make it a bad thing. It contributed to the overall experience of watching FMA, yes, but everything that a show has to offer does that.

you couldn't remove any fight scene in the same way you could remove that joke.

That does sound nice, but I think it might be rare because it's a difference in culture.

It would probably happen in cartoons more often if other countries were more willing to include ecchi in their cartoons.

Or if sex and sexualisation was handled in a more mature way. Cultural differences don't mean freedom from criticism.

Never said it did. Just saying, if some other country were to include sexuality, it would probably be done in a style more appealing to you.

Japan's entertainment industry does what its viewership likes.

 

[Bocaj2000]

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in.

Is that not for the creators to decide?

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings

And that's an issue why?

1: Read "Death of the Author".

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole. If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Trying to limit art to only ever be one way is not helping art and is actually making it less diverse. I don't care for a world where art only ever follows one person's set of rules.

I didn't give you a "set of rules". I just said if something is out of place it detracts from the whole. That's not a "rule", that's an observation.

Edit:

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

"Why does Fullmetal Alchemist need the comedy parts?"

"Because it's funny and entertaining"

"then go to a comedy club"

----

"Why do the characters in this show have such creative clothing?"

"because it's nice to look at"

"Then go to a fashion show.

----

"Why does this video game have to have a story?"

"Because the story's thought provoking and adds context to what the characters are doing."

"Then go watch a movie."

---

"Why is the main character so good looking?"

"Because it makes it aesthetically pleasing."

"Then go read a fashion model magazine"

---

Where's the difference?

Aside from your video game argument, there is no difference. In every case, the second person responds with a vague reason that has better alternatives. If the ONLY reason you have something in your work is "because it's pretty" then you don't know what you're doing as an artist.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!).

According to the internet, they are. At least if it is a plastic bust of a woman in a bikini, and it's bloody. Also just existing is apparently "Suggestive", because being upright and straight and in no pose what so ever is now enough to be suggestive; especially if there is blood involved. Never have I been so offended then when others took offense to a zombie novelty item because "It was supposed to be sexy". That's fucking sick...

People are weird, and the internet terrifies me sometimes.

The point is, I think these specific labels you are trying to assign to things are actually moot, because people see what they want to see at the end of the day... if it fits their agenda.

 

[Bocaj2000]

1: Read "Death of the Author".

One day, perhaps. For the purposes of continuing this discussion, I'll work with the description on Wikipedia.

I don't believe it relates to the issue at hand.

You may not like the inclusion of said aspect but as the creation of the Author it's their place to include it.

It's their place to include it? Yes... they make it. And it's my place to critique their decisions. As someone who critiques professional and peer work alike, someone whose in an academic setting to pick apart works to see what enables the piece and what detracts from it on a daily basis, I don't think that my opinion is inane.

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole.

Who's to say what belongs in a scene? to quote wikipedia

"To give a text an Author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text."

By arguing your interpretation as the only interpretation you are going against the very thing "Death of the Author" is trying say.

... you misunderstood the wiki page. The point was that the author's interpretation doesn't matter. The point was that our interpretation is the only thing that matters when discussing an author's work. In other words, my opinion is more valid than the author's intentions. You can think whatever you want as well, but the author's intentions are irrelevent.

If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Why does every piece of media need to be "art" or at least your definition of art?

Nothing has to be art, but they will always be critiqued as such. That's how the world of critique works.

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

Like you said it contributes to the experience. It is not the sole aspect of the experience one is their to experience.

Is that really such a hard concept to comprehend?

What experience? If you add something just because "it's pretty" and no other reason, then you don't know what you're doing as an artist. If you don't want me to dismiss you, then expand on "Because it's nice to look at."

 

[Strain42]

For me it depends on the anime in question. For instance, I hate the "harem" genre, stuff like Love Hina.

Now I have watched Love Hina, and I even used to read the manga when I was a kid. But as I got older and looked at it in hindsight...

It's boring. The story of that series isn't better than your average porn. It's basically a porn without sex in it. So I basically DO have to ask myself "Why not just watch a series that's just as good as this, but has sex in it?"

Now I admit that some series are quite good as far as the writing and characters go, and they just so happen to contain a lot of over the top sexual fanservice (For instance, I enjoyed the recent Witchblade anime, despite the heavy fanservice)

If the series is really good, just features fanservice, that's fine, whatever. I understand why you'd wanna watch that over porn.

But the vast majority of fanservicey anime that I've seen (Love Hina, Chobits, Divergence Eve, Sekirei,...um...that one with the guy who is like a wizard's grandkids so like 3 girls want his child...starts with an M)...I'd rather just watch porn. At least then I know why I'm watching it. I don't have to fool myself into thinking I'm actually enjoying the story or characters because I like the titillation it provides.

Obviously it's different for everyone, but that's how it is for me.

 

[Benrawr]

Why are all anime boobs so insistent on being made of pudding?

 

[Danny Ocean]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!). Women with nice features isn't porn. Women being seductive/playful isn't porn either.

Yes it is.

It's called 'Softcore' as opposed to 'hardcore' pornography.

See: Lads' Mags.

 

[Hagi]

Why are all anime boobs so insistent on being made of pudding?

OT: Don't really have much issue with the fanservice in Anime. Sometimes, alright quite often, it's silly yeah. But it's bearable.

Now those run-of-the-mill characters I don't even know how to describe since that would imply they have enough personality to warrant a description? Those make shows utterly and completely unwatchable. And sadly those seem vastly more common than fanservice.

 

[Paragon Fury]

There are a couple of things I've picked out to respond to, since there is a lot here.

1: Why would people watch "ecchi" instead of real porn? I can think of a few reasons;
- They like the women/men in anime/video games better than the ones you find in porn?
- They don't like the dirtiness and nastiness typically associated with and in porn?
- Its just easier to find and like "ecchi" than it is porn?

2: I'm taking issue more with the ignoring of the difference between what their suggesting and what actually IS. That and maybe the high chance of hypocrisy involved - I wonder how many of these people blasting anime/video games have the SI summer issue or Maxium just lying around (or the female equivalent of those things).

3: Some of you are missing the point; the question for "fanservice" isn't "Why put it in?" but rather "Why not?". Writers and artists know its and easy way to boost sales/viewing and if doesn't really detract or cause harm to the story, why not put it in? Its not like they don't know their audiences after all.

 

[KOMega]

EDIT: Here is one of the funniest (or saddest pending your view point) of HSD fan-service. Ladies and Gentlemen...I present to you...

Spoiler: Matrix Boobs

...yeah....that just happened. Feel free to take a minute to clean up all the brain from your mind exploding.

I find it hilarious. I see nothing wrong in making fun of boobs and physics.

If a piece of fiction is to be taken seriously it shouldn't have sexual content unless it is relevant to the plot, themes or characters in some way. If it's just fan-service without context it has no substance and thus, no point. The same applies to violence, or really anything that happens just for the sake of happening.

I think the reason people don't just watch porn is partially because of context. I mean the biggest amount of context in porn is "A man and a women walk into a bar. They fuck."
I don't normally watch harems or ecchi or much of any of that. But I imagine some form of context is provided, even if it's paper thin.

This, like almost every issue, is actually made of many small things, and not just one thing.

Part of it is that:

They think sexuality is a bad or unacceptable or indecent thing that should never be expressed in entertainment and thus, should only be displayed in its most hamfisted and inelegant form, solely for the utility of allowing people to easily get themselves off every once in a while.

In short, they have no imagination, at least when it comes to erotica. I've found that it's unfortunately not worth trying to argue with people who say that.

For some people it seems they either want no sexuality, or all of it (to the point of straight out sex) and people can't seem to grasp the in-between. I would like to think humans are a little more complex (just a little) so that anything that is remotely sexualized isn't there just to beat off to.

There is a video interview of the World Champion Masturbater World Champion Masturbater. Yes that is a thing. The world is weird. Anyways. you Can find the video on youtube yourself. Nothing NSFW in there imo, but just in case. Go find it yourself.

Somewhere in there he starts talking about hentai/animated porn in there (and I know the difference between that and ecchi, but hear me out.)
Somewhere in there he does say that he enjoys the animated porn more because it's a lot cleaner. To be fair, actual sex is kinda dirty. And not in the good way.

Also: I am not saying every person who watches ecchi/hentai believe or think all this. There are many reasons for each individual.

 

[verdant monkai]

Because some great animes have been stunted by the sheer stupid amount of fan service. My favored example:

High School of the Dead

Spoiler: Matrix Boobs

I love the anime too and that scene always gets me, I think its supposed to be comedic thought right? Its supposed to be ludicrous and dumb that the boobs only get skimmed rather than shot through.

To be honest you sort of know what your getting yourself into if its an anime called high school of the dead. The highschool part means a lot of very Japanese and pervy stuff will happen. I dont think fanservice ruins HOTD I'd say HOTD is a piece of fanservice.

Fanservice and all that really doesn't bother me in fact sometimes I like it, other times I find it funny. Then again its obviously not for everyone, and I am after all the amorphous sack of meat and tentacles that its supposed to appeal to.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

I can tell you why people say that.

They think sexuality is a bad or unacceptable or indecent thing that should never be expressed in entertainment and thus, should only be displayed in its most hamfisted and inelegant form, solely for the utility of allowing people to easily get themselves off every once in a while.

In short, they have no imagination, at least when it comes to erotica. I've found that it's unfortunately not worth trying to argue with people who say that.

It's a good thing you just decided you know what people who don't think the exact same thing as you think, packaged with a personal attack to boot. Posts like this are why the Internet is well known as humanity's last bastion for reasoned and civil discussion.

Not really. You should probably re-read what I said because there was nothing about "people who don't think the exact same as I do" in there. Saying that shows that I enjoy should not exist and that I should just go watch porn instead is not worth arguing. Is there much other reason for suggesting something like that when you could easily just not watch? It's called tolerance and letting people enjoy what's fun for them. Also, there was no personal attack, but nice try there.

Personally, I think sexuality is great. I love to see it expressed. I have no time for fan-service and out-of-context T&A because I'm a savvy consumer with a brain, and I don't appreciate being exclusively marketed to via my penis.

When I see out-of-context fan-service, what I hear in my head is the producers of the show saying, "You! Yeah you! Give us your money! Give it to us now! Buy more of our product! Buy our posters, figurines, manga, and of course more episodes of our show! Because we showed you some badly animated, anatomically-incorrect tits! What, you say you want an interesting story? You want relatable characters! Fuck that! You're a penis with a wallet attached! You'll buy the lowest schlock we have on offer because we put a pair of melons on camera. You want an exciting game with fun mechanics and a compelling challenge curve? No, we're giving you a rehash of a side-scrolling beat-em-up from the late 80's that wasn't even that good to begin with, and you'll buy it because we stuck ginormous bazongas in it for no good reason. Now dance, monkey, dance!"

This entire thing is because you're making a huge assumption, just like some of the people who comment on my art. I draw ecchi all the time, but people assume I'm doing it just to get pageviews, for instance. The truth is, I'm doing it despite less pageviews because it's fun for me and the artists who inspired me were ecchi artists.

The thing is, sometimes it really is just a case of the artists' original intent was to include the ecchi, because it's fun for them to include in their works. Baseless assumptions that assume they only include ecchi for the money are just that. Baseless. It's conjecture that makes you feel exploited as a consumer.

People should really stop thinking of companies as "HAR HAR OUT TA GETCHER MONEEEEY!" all the time. It's not as much of a case of us vs. them as people seem to think.

 

[The Lugz]

Women in bikinis is not porn (imagine the economies that would destroyed if it was!). Women with nice features isn't porn. Women being seductive/playful isn't porn either. Maybe that is one of the reasons people watch it. To see something they DO like without having to see something they DON'T like?

Umm, according to Webster's pornography is "Writings, pictures ect..intended primarily to arouse sexual desire."
So yeah, women in bikinis, women with nice features, women being playfully seductive can actually all be considered porn, though from the definition it would seem that the intent of the creator is actually the primary consideration.
I'm with you about there being people who just don't like what most people consider porn now...don't want to watch other people going at it...but I love to watch bellydancers, which according to the definition....

it's interesting actually how 'porn' developed the first recorded porn that i've herd of were paintings and carvings ( small handsized statues ) that you could touch and look at almost like a 'fetish' artefact ( which could be where the concept of fetish came from, the obsession with a sex toy or whatever object. )

basically my definition of porn is watching something that arouses you, whatever that may be. because as we all know ( or should by now ) everyone is different and with such things, the proper definition is in the eye of the beholder.
the problem is, how can you rate or control something that has no strict definition? it's basically the government, churches and other establishments that invented the labels and judge you by what you do..
so.. extremely edgy political subject and totally controversial hmm.. maby i should quit while im ahead here.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

If a piece of fiction is to be taken seriously it shouldn't have sexual content unless it is relevant to the plot, themes or characters in some way. If it's just fan-service without context it has no substance and thus, no point. The same applies to violence, or really anything that happens just for the sake of happening.

There are exceptions of course. Some genres are known for their gratuitous amounts of sex/violence/etc., but that doesn't mean they are immune to criticism.

I don't mind that some people like seeing tons of fan service in anime, but I personally don't want to deal with it if I can avoid it. There are plenty of animes out there that handle sexuality in a mature and relevant way... they're just rare it seems >.>

A porn thread and your name is fappy, oh crap, must resist joke!

I'd say there are very few shows where the sexual content isn't at least relevant to the characters. High School of the Dead is an example of that. While a lot of shows might not handle sexuality in a mature way, and that applies to all tv shows, not just anime.

To the OP: I can understand when it comes to the more blatant fanservice, like the obligatory beach episode or something, but a character who teases or generally acts seductive isn't a bad thing or even remotely related to porn in all likelihood.