Why Randomly Generated Content Sucks

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Why Randomly Generated Content Sucks

How Diablo 3 went off the randomly generated reservation.

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[Kargathia]

What might be interesting here is that the whole thing with "let a bunch of writers all write a chapter" has already been done - it was a big prank on the whole romantic book genre, and it sold like hot cookies. The prediction of it making zero sense was rather accurate though.

 

[Hitchmeister]

The key lies in a reasonable expectation of what randomly generated levels can do. In a game where many subsequent replays are expected, random generation of levels can make each replay slightly less repetitive than a game where everything is exactly the same. Can it make a completely new game every time you play it? Not even close.

 

[Voltano]

I think where "The Binding of Isaac" does better with its random-map generator versus "Diablo III" is the survival element. I think a random-map generator would work great for a survival/horror based game like "Silent Hill" or "Resident Evil" as these rely heavily on managing resources like health or infection. In fact, a lot of Roguelike games like "Nethack" encourage players to manage these resources while exploring the randomly-generated dungeon, which can lead to some tense moments in deciding on whether you should drink that unidentified potion when you are attacked by mind flayers. Its similar to a player desperate for a positive effect when they take a pill while fighting Satan with one heart left.

Basically "The Binding of Isaac" has a variety of resources for the player to micro-manage, but "Diablo III" removes this. This is one of the reasons why I didn't like "Diablo II" so much compared to "Diablo I" as it removed the spell-system--something that is necessary for survival yet only acquired by exploring a random dungeon--for for the skill-tree, where your "spells" are lined up in order and only acquired after grinding for X hours. Now "Diablo III" removes the ability of distributing points to your ability scores, which means there is less resources for the player to manage. The only thing the player gets in these games is "fancy" or "fancier" pants (as Yahtzee put it), which merely add bonuses to an level 17 Monk avatar that is no different, aside from gear, to another level 17 Monk.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Well, some of the mindless automatic biases people think you have would be against:

AAA Titles
Nintendo
Japanese RPGs
First Person Shooters
Games with a multiplayer focus
Modern games in general
Games with quicktime events
Tolkienesque Fantasy
Long cutscenes

Did i forget anything?

 

[Emiscary]

There's definitely a market for a "Lord of the Flies" style survival game, but I doubt it'll ever get made. (Barring an indie dev stumbling on the idea and running with it.)

 

[Invadergray]

A word in Diablo's defense, the whole "randomly generated textures and architecture" thing does come into play during the optional dungeons namely that which dungeons with which architecture are available changes from game to game. Also certain lore is randomly generated to give players new insight into the world on other playthroughs. I know that's not enough to excuse everything else, but there it is.

Well, some of the mindless automatic biases people think you have would be against:

AAA Titles
Nintendo
Japanese RPGs
First Person Shooters
Games with a multiplayer focus
Modern games in general
Games with quicktime events
Tolkienesque Fantasy
Long cutscenes

Did i forget anything?

You forgot Motion Controls

 

[TheDutch3Z]

Can someone link me to the article where Yahtzee mentioned/talked about The Binding of Isaac?


Upd:Nevermind found it

 

[Kahunaburger]

It's not the same thing as procedural generation, which is the thing that Spore's character animation ran on. Random levels in this case is taking a collection of pre-built rooms and randomly arranging how they're all slotted together. This does not create an infinite supply of dungeons, it's a constant rearrangement of just the one dungeon, an incredibly monotone dungeon with no intelligent direction whatsoever. And you wouldn't even know you were in a randomly generated dungeon until a second playthrough if maybe, maybe you remembered going down a hallway differently last time. At which point you will most likely think "Well, that explains why it's so samey", rather than "Well, this makes it all worth it."

+1

People need to stop judging procedural generation based on half-assed Diablo-style map generation.

I think where "The Binding of Isaac" does better with its random-map generator versus "Diablo III" is the survival element. I think a random-map generator would work great for a survival/horror based game like "Silent Hill" or "Resident Evil" as these rely heavily on managing resources like health or infection. In fact, a lot of Roguelike games like "Nethack" encourage players to manage these resources while exploring the randomly-generated dungeon, which can lead to some tense moments in deciding on whether you should drink that unidentified potion when you are attacked by mind flayers. Its similar to a player desperate for a positive effect when they take a pill while fighting Satan with one heart left.

Also this. Procedural generation works best in very specific game design contexts, and the whole resource/risk management roguelike paradigm is a great example of one of those design contexts. Geography and placement of exploitable resources, a la Minecraft and Alpha Centauri, is another one. Basically random variation in map content only matters if that random variation means something interesting in terms of how the game is played.

 

[Falseprophet]

What might be interesting here is that the whole thing with "let a bunch of writers all write a chapter" has already been done - it was a big prank on the whole romantic book genre, and it sold like hot cookies. The prediction of it making zero sense was rather accurate though.

If you mean Atlanta Nights [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Nights], that was actually done to expose a vanity press scam masquerading as a traditional publisher.

 

[lord.jeff]

Well, some of the mindless automatic biases people think you have would be against:

AAA Titles
Nintendo
Japanese RPGs
First Person Shooters
Games with a multiplayer focus
Modern games in general
Games with quicktime events
Tolkienesque Fantasy
Long cutscenes

Did i forget anything?

He hates sequels too, written a few extra punctuations just to bash the them but everyone has bias, Yahtzee just likes overstating his and passing it off as fact.


I agree that random generation suck for the most part but it has worked in Disgaea, it had pre-made story levels but randomly generated extra stages that was great to help make the grinding in that game more bearable.

 

[GoldenShadow]

Try Dwarf Fortress. Randomly generated and simulated world. Randomly generated and simulated dwarves living in it. Everything is randomly generated. Its almost just like your hypothetical example.

 

[Mahoshonen]

Another example of where randomly generated content works is the original X-Com. You could play the game several different ways, and each time you landed at a wreck or on a terror mission your experience is going to be different. So it didn't really matter that every city has the same gas station-what mattered was who's side was going to take the most loses when it explodes.

 

[Ickabod]

This article made me think of the differences between randomly generated and procedurally generated levels. Yahtzee has the right idea in my opinion, the entire story telling mechanic in games doesn't have to be tied to the methods of traditional story telling, it can be more organic, elevating the bar to a level unseen in ALL media. Games don't need to tell a story anymore, they just need set pieces that can be activated by the actions of the player to trigger events. Now if only the industry would figure out how to do it.

Minecraft + Procedural storytelling = Greatest Game Ever!

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Let's see Yahtzee's known biases:
JRPGs
Online Multiplayer (I personally agree with that one)
Quicktime events
Motion Controls
and now Randomly Generated Levels/Dungeons

Am I forgetting anything.

 

[CD-R]

Well, some of the mindless automatic biases people think you have would be against:

AAA Titles
Nintendo
Japanese RPGs
First Person Shooters
Games with a multiplayer focus
Modern games in general
Games with quicktime events
Tolkienesque Fantasy
Long cutscenes

Did i forget anything?

He hates sequels too, written a few extra punctuations just to bash the them but everyone has bias, Yahtzee just likes overstating his and passing it off as fact.


I agree that random generation suck for the most part but it has worked in Disgaea, it had pre-made story levels but randomly generated extra stages that was great to help make the grinding in that game more bearable.

Real Time Strategy games. Maybe strategy games in general since he wrote that whole rant about Warhammer 40k. Management sims too. Games that do that X-Ray kill cam thing. Games that are hard.

 

[Sabrestar]

The novel idea is incredibly fascinating. I'd love to see that happen.

 

[CBanana]

Well, some of the mindless automatic biases people think you have would be against:

AAA Titles
Nintendo
Japanese RPGs
First Person Shooters
Games with a multiplayer focus
Modern games in general
Games with quicktime events
Tolkienesque Fantasy
Long cutscenes

Did i forget anything?

I'll add:

PC Games
Macho games
Gore-fest games
Racing games
Games with Pepsi in them
First person Platforming
Sonic

Mind you, this post is a bit tongue in cheek.

 

[Xenominim]

If Diablo 3 allowed mods it would be interesting to see someone do a Binding of Isaac style mod for it where you play a more generic character and somehow acquire randomized skills as you play. Force you to find ways to mix and match talents from the various classes with a cap on how many you eventually discover so you can't just get everything eventually.