Why so much hate for Turn Based Games?

Hobojoe3000

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A Turn Based Game has to have a tactical aspect. If it doesn't, it requires no thought. That's why the Final Fantasy franchise rests on its story: because its game play is boring. If Final Fantasy would allow you to move in combat, then it would be good turn based game, because positioning, range, and terrain would allow you to actually use your brain when you played; but it doesn't, so it's bad. That being said, it's a fine story: it's not a great story, mostly basic hero quests with a few random (usually very random) side quests, but nothing mind blowing. I'm not exactly sure why it's so popular. It's like monopoly in that regard: it absolutely shouldn't be one of the most popular games of all time, but it is.

The point being is that most JRPGs, the most commonly hated turn-based games, have no actual value as a mental exercise, and thus are bad games. (Really bad. No, worse than that.)
 

Iori Branford

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Turn-based games and I go way back, and there will always be a place for them even on the computer. Unfortunately, as things now stand they are held back by:

1) a lot of prominent turn-based fighting systems being slow/clunky/dumbed-down shit, whether they're bogging you down with excessive menus (Disgaea) or they've had almost all tactical complexity ripped out and thrown in the toilet (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and their runty little children).

2) no truly successful attempts to bring turn-taking up to modern standards. With the Infinity engine, Bioware went too far in the RTS direction, and shit just flew by way too fast even with the pause feature. They slowed it down for Neverwinter Nights and onward, but then combatants just stood around and stared at each other, maybe taking a swing every so often if they felt like it. Temple of Elemental Evil had consecutive enemies make their moves all at once, but was hampered by a sluggish interface and an overwhelming boatload of options and commands (not to mention the crushing difficulty).

3) the technological possibility of equivalent real-time games. I can't think of any real-time adaptations I liked, but you know how the masses just have to have their realism.

4) some games just needing more polish. Arcanum looked and played all right, but all its battle sounds were a lot of lame whoosh noises, not a single cut or clang to be heard anywhere.
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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Iori Branford said:
2) no truly successful attempts to bring turn-taking up to modern standards. With the Infinity engine, Bioware went too far in the RTS direction, and shit just flew by way too fast even with the pause feature. They slowed it down for Neverwinter Nights and onward, but then combatants just stood around and stared at each other, maybe taking a swing every so often if they felt like it.
I wouldn't say -no- truly successful attempts, Rome: Total War and Medieval 2 are pretty good examples of the Risk style strategy games, though granted the battlescape combat is Real time. The latest Civilisation and it's expansions are also good, though, the gameplay itself has changed only a little since the first. Another would be Galactic Civilizations 2, basically Civ...IN SPACE!! But, it works very well indeed.


Although, in typing that I think I realise your point, though those examples are pretty good turn based games in their own right, have they really changed that much since their predecessors, and thus, modernised? Is Medieval 2 that much different from Medieval, or hell even that much different from Shogun: Total War? Graphically yes, and there are a few little differences, but is the basic underlying gameplay the same?

As for more action oriented games i.e. Turn Based JRPGs, it seems like these have two kinds, one, whereby you selected a command and the character performs it. (Final Fantasy series etc.) And two, whereby you are mostly free to move your character about and can attack directly (Eternal Sonata) or put in a combination of commands (Legend of Legaia etc.) The Infinity Engine, Aurora and subsequent Electron Engine for Baldur's Gate 2, and Neverwinter Night 1 and 2 respectively also work rather like the second type of JRPG, in that, although turns do take place, (actually less visible in these cases) they play more like an RTS than actual turn based RPGS, like Fallout.

One thing I miss, is the Turn Based Squad Strategy. A new Xcom wouldn't go awry these days methinks :3 Though, we'll always have the originals I guess, so that's a plus ;)
Actually, there are a number of DS titles to that effect...should try and see what those are like...
 

sidhe3141

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OK, here's my mostly unsupported opinion on the subject:

There are two main reasons why we play games: challenge and emotional experience.

Challenge is the big one, the evolutionary reason why playing games is hardwired into the brains of most of Kingdom Animalia. A game provides a safe challenge for honing a skill; a situation where there's no real penalty for failure and no real reward for success. If an animal learns a skill by using it in the real world, it's going to die (and maybe take down the rest of the pack) if it doesn't get it right on the first try; but if it learns it by playing a game (say, the stalk-and-pounce-and-tussle games any kitten plays), there's no penalty for failure. In other words, games are a training simulator for reality. A safe challenge is fun (don't deny it, you lot know you have more fun earning your victories than cheating or otherwise fixing the contest) because pleasure is evolution's way of making sure you keep doing something.

The emotional experience of a game, though, is mostly specific to human beings, and it's similar to why we read fiction. Emotional experience is known by many names among the gaming community: realism, story, and immersion, to name a few. A good emotional experience (note that I'm using "good" in the sense of "well-made" rather than "pleasureable") makes the player feel what the protagonist is feeling. In a good experience, the characters seem real. In a good experience, the player will either love or hate the game, there's no "Meh..." about it.

So, how is this relevant? Different people will like different types of challenges and different types of experiences. Some people love fast-paced games, others like thoughtful games. Some people like Dark Fantasy, others perfer Humor. In other words, it's not just cooks who need to remember "De gustibus non desperandum."

And now, the #*$%ing point. When Chris Crawford [http://www.erasmatazz.com] published "Trust and Betrayal: The Legacy of Siboot" in '87, it was a commercial flop. (For those who don't know, T&B is a game based on social reasoning, with a thoughtful and contemplative atmosphere and realistic characters.) There's no denying that some people liked the game; it was a cult favorite and I'm pretty sure there's still some fansites floating around. So why did it fail? Because its target market wasn't (and still isn't) exactly established. It was a flop because, while it did appeal to some tastes, those tastes were refined/uncommon/wierd and a fair number of gamers in that day were social rejects and much more into the "killkillkill" experience than the "tear-jerker" experience. Moving out of the historical context and into the present day, we are now in a position to understand the abuse heaped upon turn-based games.

Intentionally distorted statistics aside, the vast majority of gamers are teenage males whose tastes have not yet matured and seek cheap thrills and instant gratification. They tend not to like games calling for deep thought and patience. They much perfer games of action. They want the designer to let them vent their hormonal angst and sexual frustration by placing as much blood, butts, buicks, and bucks in the game as can be crammed into the CD.

Now then, a TBG calls for thought (unless you've ground up to the level of being able to kill anything with a flick of your index finger). It calls for patience (at least navigating through menus). As it aims for more sophisticated players,it tends to have a storyline that most people would term "artisticly semi-valid" (no unnessecary graphic violence, pointless nudity, or gratuitous commercial/consumer/material -ism). Is it any wonder that they come under fire from players so often?
 

Kaewt

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Lords of magic lords of the realm, jagged aliance heroes of might and magic 3 shogun total war. Ah the fun i had. Good thing I still has an old pentium 3 laptop my old games willnever be abandoned.
 

Graustein

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Why does everyone associate Turn-based with RPGs like Final Fantasy and Golden Sun?
Personally, when I think Turn-based, I think Civilisation, Fire Emblem and Advance Wars.

Generally speaking, most TB RPGs are pretty samey. They're often little more than the "spam attack X until you win". I used to read a book and play Pokemon at the same time. Which was, to be honest, an enjoyable experience.

I like it when a TB RPG it up, like the Mario RPGs.

But beyond that, the REAL TB games are the strategic and tactical games. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance is an awesome game, and one of my all-time favourites. Same goes for Advance Wars and Civilisation. I understand that most gamers nowadays lack the attention span to enjoy a game like Civ, but I find it much more fulfilling to play Civ and manage an empire. Then again, I'm the kind of person who has Diplomacy parties with my mates.

Turn-based games are not a waste of time, as long as they extend beyond the "stand 3 metres away and take turns to smack each other silly" formula. The non-RPG ones are often an intellectual exercise, something that is unfortunately declining in recent years in favour of how fast your fingers can move. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find a mental challenge more satisfying than one of dexterity and muscle memory.
 

Sennz0r

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PedroSteckecilo said:
Are we all so ADD these days that we cannot handle a little bit of slower pacing and careful deliberation? Am I the only one who misses carefully considering your actions and then making your move ala Pen/Paper Roleplaying, Chess or other RL games?

I mean I understand the boredom aspect, but certain games (Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door, Shadow Hearts, Grandia, Final Fantasy X, Eternal Sonata, The Total War Series, Civilization Series, Fallout) do Turn Based gameplay in an interesting and compelling manner, and certain other games (The Bioware DND Games, KOTOR) allow an excellent comprimise.

Can a non-ADD-actionjunky-FPSfanboy explain this EXTREME aversion to me?
Yes I do like FPS but I don'r regard myself a high-speed beat 'em up junky. What I do like however, is actually being in control of the moves my character does. I have the feeling turn based combat keeps me at a distance, like it's saying "we know how to do the epic manouvres, you just pick one and we'll do the rest. I agree, strategy is nice in a way, but I find sufficient strategy in choosing what kind of apparel I wear to boost my stats or what weapon works best against an enemy, just let me move around during combat, I'm quite capable.
So yes, in my case it's about control and immersion. I did hear some turn based games had a middle ground, where you have to time some button sequences when the character is executing the move you just selected. I can live with that.
 

shatnershaman

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Graustein said:
Why does everyone associate Turn-based with RPGs like Final Fantasy and Golden Sun?
Personally, when I think Turn-based, I think Civilisation, Fire Emblem and Advance Wars.

Generally speaking, most TB RPGs are pretty samey. They're often little more than the "spam attack X until you win". I used to read a book and play Pokemon at the same time. Which was, to be honest, an enjoyable experience.

I like it when a TB RPG it up, like the Mario RPGs.

But beyond that, the REAL TB games are the strategic and tactical games. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance is an awesome game, and one of my all-time favourites. Same goes for Advance Wars and Civilisation. I understand that most gamers nowadays lack the attention span to enjoy a game like Civ, but I find it much more fulfilling to play Civ and manage an empire. Then again, I'm the kind of person who has Diplomacy parties with my mates.

Turn-based games are not a waste of time, as long as they extend beyond the "stand 3 metres away and take turns to smack each other silly" formula. The non-RPG ones are often an intellectual exercise, something that is unfortunately declining in recent years in favour of how fast your fingers can move. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find a mental challenge more satisfying than one of dexterity and muscle memory.
You know there is a turn based strategy game that is more in depth than fire emblem or civ. Its called chess.
 

Graustein

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I know, isn't it awesome?

Although to be honest, my absolute favourite TB games ever would have to be D&D (the old one, not this new bullshit with dwarven druids and halfling paladins and god knows what else) and Diplomacy, which took turn-based games to an unprecedented level that I've yet to see matched. Nothing more satisfying than conquering Austria-Hungary from Turkey and then using my newly expanded empire to seize Moscow. Although neither game is very shiny, since both are pen & paper
 

tobyornottoby

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shatnershaman said:
sidhe3141 said:
Long amazing post
Can you help me on this then? I like COD4 with cheats on and on easy more than hardened with no cheats (I can beat both) so I'm confused.
you're getting your fun out of something else than the 2 main reasons he mentioned ;)

Forget what it was called (and wether I have them right) but there is this model with actually 4 kinds of fun, with challenge and emotional being 2 and the other 2 being social and 'stress release/relaxation'. Maybe your fun comes from the last? Not beating the game, but just having fun playing with it?
 

Lord Gloom

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I don't mind turn based gameplay at all, but I despise its ugly, and all too frequent companion, the random encounter. I loved paper mario, and I loved Chronno Trigger. Both turn based, both with no random encounters. Random encounters CRIPPLE the game. I can't even play the FF series for more than 10 min of gameplay (you know, after you finish the 2 hour intro). It really pisses me off seeing a beautiful game with a potentially great story like Lost Oddssey only to find that it is riddled with random encounters.
 

Zombie_King

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I don't mind turn-based combat, but my one gripe is when a game has so many elements that you need to take five minutes every turn to plan your move. Then it's no longer an RPG/JRPG, but a strategy game. It's like you're playing Chess. I like when I have a slow defined trickle of options that work well together, and aren't very complicated. I do prefer real-time combat, but some games just work with turn-based combat, and some don't. Think about CoD4 in TBC. You shoot, your enemy shoots, repeat. It tends to get a little repetitive, but I can stand mountainous amounts of grind, that's why I (used to) play WoW. So, I'd say I prefer non turn-based games, but if a game is pretty good, I can withstand it.
 

CrazySlyHawk

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Age of Wonders was one of the best TBS games I ever played; still play. An unsung gem!

..Not to mention Civ2. Slow, yet worth the effort!
 

Ultrajoe

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Zombie_King said:
I don't mind turn-based combat, but my one gripe is when a game has so many elements that you need to take five minutes every turn to plan your move. Then it's no longer an RPG/JRPG, but a strategy game. It's like you're playing Chess. I like when I have a slow defined trickle of options that work well together, and aren't very complicated. I do prefer real-time combat, but some games just work with turn-based combat, and some don't. Think about CoD4 in TBC. You shoot, your enemy shoots, repeat. It tends to get a little repetitive, but I can stand mountainous amounts of grind, that's why I (used to) play WoW. So, I'd say I prefer non turn-based games, but if a game is pretty good, I can withstand it.
thats why i love them though, its a pretty form of a puzzle.

Add in something like the FF12 system and you have integrated turn based, hey in FF12 it didn't pull off perfectly, but it was fun and it could only get better from there.
 

TheIceface

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I don't hate turn based games, I actually still play Monopoly and Scrabble from time to time.

The OP seems to have the notion that FPStards (AKA cool people, like me) don't have the attention span. In fact I counter that with a claim that Turntards (I just made that up, badass huh) don't have hand-eye coordination.
 

Laggard

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TheIceface said:
I don't hate turn based games, I actually still play Monopoly and Scrabble from time to time.
I forgot about RISK!

Risk might be the best turn based game I have ever played. Risk on the PC is also faster than the Risk board game. Also, on the PC it is easier to get 5 other opponents to play against you.
 

TheIceface

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Laggard said:
TheIceface said:
I don't hate turn based games, I actually still play Monopoly and Scrabble from time to time.
I forgot about RISK!

Risk might be the best turn based game I have ever played. Risk on the PC is also faster than the Risk board game. Also, on the PC it is easier to get 5 other opponents to play against you.
Alright, but can you flip the board off the table and scream, "Fuck this, and fuck you! I'm going home!". I believe that is essential in ALL turn-based games, especially Risk.
 

Laggard

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TheIceface said:
Laggard said:
TheIceface said:
I don't hate turn based games, I actually still play Monopoly and Scrabble from time to time.
I forgot about RISK!

Risk might be the best turn based game I have ever played. Risk on the PC is also faster than the Risk board game. Also, on the PC it is easier to get 5 other opponents to play against you.
Alright, but can you flip the board off the table and scream, "Fuck this, and fuck you! I'm going home!". I believe that is essential in ALL turn-based games, especially Risk.
Quite True
 

zipideedod

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Go turn based strategy! Real time to hectic. FPS good to blow off steam but falls into the trap of shoot, hide, melee button. Racing I lose part of my soul every time I play one. God games pain in the ass. Fighting games uh yeah i'm paying for a chance to button mash no thank you. Turn based real time I have not seen enough of this wonderful genre. I know I have missed a few genres but my point is clear. Go on see if you can type long enough to disagree with me ADD will stop you halfway.