Why the Marvel Movies Should Ditch Peter Parker

[Makabriel]

Too risky, better just get another white guy named Chris.

You gotta problem with white guys named Chris? *flex*

 

[XDSkyFreak]

Could we just get anice character? You know, a well written interesting to watch compeling one? I don't give a single fuck about what race he is, what gender, what name he has (though I will say this to you comic fans: putting someone name anything else than Peter Parker will only make the audience that actually earns marvel money scratch their heads and boo. I tried raising this subject to my non-comic reading friends and their reactions have been "Dude, Parker is Spider-man, I don't give a shit about Miles whatever the hell" ... allthough they were open to a spider-girl), how nerdy or cool he is doesn't matter to me. What matters is that I get a character that I can identify with and understand and whose strugles are compelling to watch. So instead of all this pointless sjw, my character is better than your character bla bla, let's recall that these are not the point. The point is: we want a good spiderman movie with an awesome main character. As long as that happens he can a klendathu alien bug queen for all I care.

And just a side-note: these movies are works that take certain elements from comic books and adapt them to the big screen. Keyword beeing ADAPT, not TRANSPLANT.

captcha: easy as cake - no shit ... common sense can work wonders sometimes.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Just because there is a market for minority characters doesn't mean that they are given the same chance as other characters. Simply making new characters to represent minorities rarely works because while many people would like to see more representation, few people are willing to take a risk by buying new and untested books. And if the readers are unwilling to risk their Money on an untested character with no history, then the Publishers that ultimatelyy have to sign on for this risk Before the readers even get a chance to support it are even worse. Comics are an expensive hobby you know. Hence why new minority characters are generally legacy heroes or related to other characters so that they can borrow some brand recognition while they get started.

Sorry, but this is a bullshit argument. Marvel alone has put out something like 3 or 4 books with female characters head-lining them in the last year alone. If they didn't want to print a full book, then they could do what they do with every other new character - try them out in an existing book and see if fan reaction is good enough to run to print.

The only reason why they gender/race swap existing characters is because every time they do this they are (for now) guaranteed to get free publicity from the press that loves to run stories like this because it always causes thread exactly like this one.

All the fans and readers are basically being played.

Moreover it's the only way to keep sales high. Female Thor sells well. Spider-Women did well. Books without mass internet controversy hype: She Hulk = canceled. Elektra: Canceled. Black Widow = sells like shit. Ms. Marvel, sells better but pretty crappy. Storm, dropped like a rock from middle range sales. Hell, if half they hype over Miles online hit the comic USM would be back selling at #1.

People seem to love diversity, but only so long as it's big, in your face and hyped to the wazoo.

 

[shadowmagus]

I've been saying it since we got the word about Spider-man. I mean, honestly, we are already using a number of "Ultimate" versions of characters (Nick Fury being the most notable), so why not just keep the train rolling?

 

[happyninja42]

I'm totally cool with this, mostly because I've always found "legacy" stories really fun. Of having the name Spider-Man becoming more of a mantle of power, that get's passed on from generation to generation. Giving it more of a mythical nature. Of course this also assumes there is time passing in a generational manner, which Marvel tends to avoid if possible for continuity reasons. Still, I wouldn't care if it was Peter or Miles, as long as he's done well and it fits the story.

Moreover it's the only way to keep sales high. Female Thor sells well. Spider-Women did well. Books without mass internet controversy hype: She Hulk = canceled. Elektra: Canceled. Black Widow = sells like shit. Ms. Marvel, sells better but pretty crappy. Storm, dropped like a rock from middle range sales. Hell, if half they hype over Miles online hit the comic USM would be back selling at #1.

People seem to love diversity, but only so long as it's big, in your face and hyped to the wazoo.

Eh, I dunno, I don't think it's so much because it's "in your face" as it's something new. I fully admit I started reading Female Thor simply because I wanted to see what they're doing with it. However, after having read it, I'm probably not going to stick with it for much longer. The level of mysogynistic obstruction from every character with a penis in the story is sort of overwhelming. I mean I get it from a certain percentage of characters, but the amount of it in just the 4 issues I've read is kind of comical. Yes, it is easy publicity, and generates interest, but this is hardly a thing that is only seen in the politically correct venue. Every time a comic series drums up something "earth shaking" it's to try and revitalize sales. The death of superman, the back breaking of batman, you name it. It's all publicity, it's nothing new, or unique to this type of diversity story.

So I don't really have a problem with them trying out new stories, as long as they are good stories.

 

[Coruptin]

Black Peter Parker and white Miles Morales or GTFO. The simultaneous nerd rage and social activist whining will fuel my sadism and sustain my physical form for at least a couple more decades.


I don't care about the race of the character. Peter Parker is Peter Parker no matter what MCU decides he looks like. It just better be Peter and not Miles in the forefront; at least, not for a little while.

 

[faefrost]

Miles would be a marketing frailer. Parker has brand recognition and enough people know him that the average person would be put off by spider-man being a different character. Always remember, the target market is always people who have never read a comic book. With every other character the movie is the first time the audience has seen this person, this gives the studio a lot of latitude with how they portray the character; this is not the case for Spider-man

Simply race swapping Peter Parker to be a black kid actually works far far better for the vast majority of your desired audience than Miles Morales.

Yeah....but why? Why change his race at all? Marvel has characters from different ethnicities they can use. How are they every supposed to become popular if people never argue for marvel to use them? "Well we could use this character who's already black and we kind of want to push....or oh fuck it, just give Peter Parker a lick of paint".

Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.

As an example compare Spider-Man to another oft debated race swapped character. Johnny Storm in the new FF movie. This is a brain dead move on the producers part. Simply because the original character is very much a racial stereotype to begin with. The Human Torch is a "dude bro". He is that white middle class frat boy type that we all know and have a love hate relationship with. He is in fact a racial caricature. Just one we don't talk about or take much offense at. But swapping his race causes some character issues. No matter how good the actor is. That "dude bro" starts to be perceived as something else. You quickly get to the point where in order to bring the race swapped character to the screen in a way that doesn't feel like a Comedy Central sketch you have to change the character to the point where it is unrecognizable from its original form.

It gets subtle. Some characters race swap more easily then others, provided they are not restricted by being pop culture icons. So just don't change well. Just like Captain America does not race swap well. He is by definition a time lost 1940's whitest white guy in the room. Whereas Iron Man is pretty much a non issue.

Spider-man falls into that same category as Batman. There is nothing in the story specific to race, and nothing about them that caricatures race, but they are so familiar to the general public that to go against public expectations is marketing suicide and cheapens your production. The money is made giving the audience the most genuine experience of the character they are looking for.

 

[HardkorSB]

Yeah... no. How about instead we have Spider Girl and stop pretending that race is the most important factor in choosing a superhero. The political correctness in this article is off the charts.

Won't happen.
Spider-Man is a brand name and just like Batgirl is no Batman, Spider-Girl is no Spider-Man.

Personally, I think that they'll go with a Caucasian Peter Parker.
Both Maguire's and Garfield's performances, while decent, weren't all that accurate.
I think Marvel is going to try and do it right.

 

[happyninja42]

Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.

Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.

 

[vid87]

I imagine it would be difficult in terms of roster packing, but if I were allowed to be an idealist:

 

[Bindal]

Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.

Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.

That argument works for EVERY civilian identity of every superhero, ever. Which makes it pointless.

 

[happyninja42]

Actually you misunderstand me. What I am saying is, purely based on story, structure and resonance Peter Parker / Spider-Man is likely the easiest comic character to race swap. He has a very universal story. The story itself is not dependent on the characters race and actually works well with any. But from a marketing and merchandising standpoint the character is a pop culture icon and Marvel's highest value propert. They are not going to give the movie goers a version of the character they do not recognize and risk derailing their merchandise juggernaut.

Interesting that you say that, since the recognizable part of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man equation is the costumed suit aspect, not the "standard issue white guy". If you just put a typical white guy in a photo, and ask people who he is, nobody would guess it's Peter Parker. But show them the outfit, and it's instant recognition. Which is why I agree that he is very easily swappable, because the iconic aspect of him, has no race/gender/social class tied into it. I don't think it would be much of an issue to have him swapped out really, from a marketing viewpoint, as most of the merchandise (if not all of it), will be the costumed persona anyway. So yeah, swap him out with a different guy/girl all you want. As long as he's the web-slinging friendly neighborhood Spider, defending New York, I think it will be fine.

That argument works for EVERY civilian identity of every superhero, ever. Which makes it pointless.

I disagree, since the entire subject of this thread, is swapping out the race of the superhero in question, and how that would impact the character. The comment I was replying to specifically was about marketability of the new version. And the fact, that there aren't many Peter Parker action figures, but a metric ton of Spiderman action figures, suggests that the iconic aspect has nothing to do with Peter Parker. The companies that make the money off him aren't making that money because he's Peter Parker, they're making it because he's Spiderman. And if the hero, is still doing the same stuff, but under the suit, is a different guy, I doubt it will impact sales of the toys. Spiderman is a blank canvas, neutral in appearance enough, that literally any kid could fantasize about being under the suit, and outwardly still look like Spiderman. What he looks like underneath means nothing to the toy sales. So yes, my argument does have a point thank you.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Wow, great. A whole post about race, again. More social justice crusading. Maybe heroes and movie characters shouldn't be judged by their race, but by their deeds and character. Haven't we moved past this nonsense yet? It's suggested to be good purely because of race and diversity, with "something new" as an afterthought. Rubbish.

OT: I didn't even know there was a different person who was also Spiderman. Saying that, since I know nothing about him I doubt I would go to see a movie for £10+ about a character I didn't know a thing about. Clark Kent is Superman, Bruce Wayne is Batman, Peter Parker is Spiderman, or conversely, Spiderman, at least the one we non-readers know, is Peter Parker.

Spiderman II is still one of, if not the best comic book hero movie in the last decade, if not ever (Superman 2 was incredible too). He doesn't need constant reinvention, rebooting, remaking and retelling. They would be better served just making a good Spiderman movie than constantly reinventing him, even with an all new cast.

I'm not against "something new", but the new should come from a new story, new characters or new heroes entirely. I don't think they needed a new reboot with Garfield, I think Man of Steel was pointless (and rubbish) and even Batman Begins was an unnecessary origin story (tho it did happen to be a good film and ended up as a seperate trilogy entirely). Heck, before Nolan's reboot, we had three Batmans (Batmen?) in one continuity and I thought it was much better. (Routh also took over from Reeves in Superman Returns and the whole "Returns" thing itself was specifically made for continuity).

I'm done with reboots and origin stories (except for Gambit 2016. I'll be living in the cinema until they physically remove me when that one comes out!).

 

[medv4380]

Miles back story is different then Peters?

Peter Guilted by the Death of Uncle Ben because he should have stopped a guy that probably would have killed him had he actually tried. Peter's not bullet proof and too green to have not gotten shot.

Miles Guilted by the Death of Peter Parker because he did nothing to stop the Green Goblin from killing him but would have killed him too had he actually tried. Miles was not experienced enough to join the fight.

Sounds like the same back story with tweeks to the characters involved.

 

[Ukomba]

Yeah... no. How about instead we have Spider Girl and stop pretending that race is the most important factor in choosing a superhero. The political correctness in this article is off the charts.

...Which means gender is the most important factor in choosing a superhero, then?

I really don't get this "Race doesn't matter, leave him white" logic. If you truly think race doesn't matter, then you shouldn't give two fucks either way. If you think he should stay white, race obviously does matter in some way. White is still a race as much as black is, it's not a template for a default human.

As for my own opinion, I'm kind of a comic book outsider looking into the world through movies, and I would love to see Spider-Man cast in a different light. I'm tired of Peter Parker. I don't want to see his story play out a third time on screen, because God knows Marvel isn't going to let their Spider Man come from the universe Sony's been working on. I know his story, it's practically its own trope now. No parents, Uncle Ben gets killed, boo hoo, gotta keep the secret from Aunt May, gotta bang the blonde or the redhead. Give me something new, Marvel.

I'd like to point out that Hdawger didn't express that Spider Girl should be chosen because of her gender, just that she would be a better choice. Then came the objection to the authors objectification of Miles based on the marketability of his skin tone. You injected the gender politics.

 

[F-I-D-O]

If they're going to have a male Spider, then I'd be more interested in seeing Miles over Parker.
The issue with Peter is that anyone doing a good Peter Parker (Toby McGuiere's awkwardness) doesn't translate well to being in the suit, and people doing a good job as Spider-Man (Andrew Garfield) have a bad or unstable Peter.

Miles would immediately differentiate the Marvel Spider-Man from Sony's interpretations, giving less baggage to the character, and allowing for new stories to be told over "We have to redo this exact scene, because the old movie did it." Miles is also from the Ultimates line of comics, so he'd be closer to the existing MCU's source material. That said, Marvel phasing out the Ultimates universe might mean they want to tone down instances of those spin off characters.

Plus, I want to see Donald Glover in a superhero movie. Because who else would pull of Miles?

That said, the exact same bonuses that come from changing who Spider-Man is can be done by getting rid of the character. I'd be more interested in seeing Spider-Gwen or Spider-Girl, as those options would also give another main female character to the Marvel MCU. Hell, I'd deal with Spider-Gwen getting tech from her internship at Oscorp to take down street criminals over ANOTHER version of Uncle Ben's death. Because even if Marvel's "stopped doing origin stories," there's going to be an Uncle Ben (at least in flashback) for Spider Man.

[sub]At this point, Uncle Ben should be Sean Bean just for the "wink and nod" joke.
[sub]Aw man, Donald Glover Miles Morales with a Sean Bean Uncle. Now we're approaching Fox's FF level of diversity. No one would argue about that! [/sub][/sub]

 

[nightmare_gorilla]

Calling the MCU "whitewashed" is inaccurate. sure there's plenty of white heroes but that's because those heroes ARE white, don't give me that "coulda made em black" horse shit people want the same heroes they've been reading about for years and yes that includes race. white washing would be if they added luke cage and black panther as middle aged white guys. white washing suggests a concerned effort to turn characters white or exclude intentionally black characters which is bullshit. i'm excited as balls for black panther to show up, luke cage is like my top 5 favorite comic book heroes of all time and he's getting a tv show. I still wish they'd used michal jai white for him but i'm still excited.

Spiderman specifically IS peter parker, miles morales is the new, hip, trendy spiderman to enjoy reading to give you street cred with all your hipster friends and he's a fine hero but to suggest we need to shoehorn in black characters because that means we're being progressive is dumb. miles morales as far as i've heard is a great spiderman and a pretty good read but you wouldn't suggest they make a kamala khan ms. marvel movie BEFORE we get to see carol danvers would you? miles entire story is informed by the standard set by peter parker meaning without parker he has no starting point, no barometer, he gets to do "as good as I can", instead of being held to the standard set by those who came before him, in short he's a legacy and you can't have a legacy if you cut out the legacy....

 

[Risingblade]

How about we focus on making a good Spider-man instead. Hell we don't even have to see the guy under the suit till civil war.

 

[JimB]

How about instead we have Spider-Girl and stop pretending that race is the most important factor in choosing a superhero.

I do not remember the article saying it is. Would you please be so kind as to quote for me the passage that you think says so?

Diversity is a fine thing, and shouldn't be ignored, but it shouldn't be the reason that decisions like this get made.

Why not?

Somebody call the diversity police! There isn't enough black and/or women people in the Marvel movies! Somebody might be alienated and might come out of the theatre butthurt.

Do you genuinely believe what you are saying is representative of reality, or are you just setting up strawmen to knock down?

I just don't like the idea of Miles basically cannibalizing Peter because he has no interesting stories of his own or any sort of importance other than being Black Spider-Man. Now as an ancillary character? Sure, he works fine I suppose. However, he lacks any meaningful history or character to inherit such a lofty and iconic role as Spider-Man.

Dude, did you need read the thing where his uncle was the Prowler and tried to use him as a weapon against Scorpion? Or that his dad used to be an informant for SHIELD? Or the Venom one where his mother got killed? Or pretty much any of his storylines?

I'm just tired of all these legacy characters that have almost no relation to the heroes they replace.

You seem to be dodging the question. Have you read those stories?

Does Black Spider-Man really have to wear a black costume?

He's only half black, so, does that make it better? If not, then what is the percentage of African genetic heritage a person is allowed to wear before a black costume becomes not objectionable?

Ugh! The only reason people have a hard on for having Miles Morales instead of Peter Parker in the new movie is simply because he's black.

Half black.

It's more of the same politically correct bullshit that got us the train wreck that was Avengers NOW! and this god awful lady Thor book and the upcoming mess of a book that's nothing but female heroes.

I am enjoying the current volume of Thor quite a bit. Would you care to expand on what makes it "god-awful," as well as how you can tell a book that hasn't been published is a mess?

The same people who are going elbow deep to pull reasons out of their ass other than "Because he's black" to justify having Miles Morales in the movie would collectively lose their shit if Marvel decided to go with a white guy to fill a traditionally black role.

If you believe that both of those acts are equivalent, then I do not think you understand the cultural context of blackface in Hollywood and racial casting practices.

There is nothing specifically white about the character [of Peter Parker] in any way that matters.

I can agree with that.

Miles is thirteen. Or was, I think there was a timeskip recently so he may be a few years older, but not much.

One. He's fourteen.

Beyond that, a significant chunk of the character, including his origin, revolves around the death of Peter and living up to that legacy as Spider-Man.

A significant portion of Iron Man's origin revolves around Viet Nam. This is the kind of thing script writers are generally allowed to alter to fit the needs of a movie. I freely admit I don't know how to do so, but then, that is why I do not get paid lots and lots of money to write scripts for Marvel movies.

If you want another character, make another superhero! Honestly, how hard is it?

How many completely original characters do you believe succeed in their own comic books? How many completely original superhero characters do you believe succeed in their own movies?

Peter Parker is the only Spider-Man.

The people who own the rights to publish Spider-Man seem to disagree with you. I believe I will take their word over yours.

Miles Morales was only made for "diversity" reasons.

The story I have heard is that Miles Morales was created because Brian Michael Bendis liked the idea of Donald Glover as Spider-Man and decided to make a book about it. What is your offer of proof to back up your assertion?

Changing Peter Parker into a different race is a horrible idea.

Why? What about Peter Parker ceases to be Peter Parker if he is not Caucasian?

If there is a market, then how about making new characters?

How many completely original characters do you believe succeed in their own comic books? How many completely original superhero characters do you believe succeed in their own movies?

We are too lazy/stupid to create another non-white male character, so let's race-swap the existing one.

What is your offer of proof that this is the reasoning behind the creation of Miles Morales?

Sorry, but this is a bullshit argument. Marvel alone has put out something like three or four books with female characters head-lining them in the last year alone.

How many of them are original characters?

Why Marvel should not: They didn't spend time, money and give concessions to Sony in order to bring a "new character" to the screen. They did it to bring Spider-Man.

I obviously don't know this for a fact because I haven't read the contracts myself, but given that Mile Morales is Spider-Man, I have to assume Sony has the rights to make movies of that character too.

No, you shouldn't treat race representation like a checklist, but that's what adding a character for token reasons is.

I think there is a difference between throwing yet another black sidekick into a white character's story and making a movie about a (half-) black hero who is not defined, and indeed even code-named so we never forget it, by his race. I mean, have you ever counted how many black people were even in the streets during the Chitauri invasion during Marvel's Avengers? How many Asian people? How many Hispanics? If I weren't white, I'd have to feel pretty fucking invisible to the creators of the Marvel Universe.

I really don't get this "Race doesn't matter, leave him white" logic. If you truly think race doesn't matter, then you shouldn't give two fucks either way. If you think he should stay white, race obviously does matter in some way. White is still a race as much as black is, it's not a template for a default human.

You are so much better at this kind of thing than I am.

Maybe heroes and movie characters shouldn't be judged by their race, but by their deeds and character.

I direct you to Lilani's post on the topic. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.870477.21811604]

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Does Black Spider-Man really have to wear a black costume?

He's only half black, so, does that make it better? If not, then what is the percentage of African genetic heritage a person is allowed to wear before a black costume becomes not objectionable?

He's Black Spider-Man to Parker's White Spider-Man, and I find it hilarious that the cartoonists decided to give Black Spider-Man a nominal Black Spider-Suit.