That piece of hardware is going to dictate how you use your product,when you use it,it's going to force you to check in like someone on parole,and has a built in camera that can record everything you do and there is no way you can turn it off.
So no this is not exaggerated and the Kinect spying thing is not false,people have a right to be pissed and if you don't like it then leave the thread.
Alright, hold up just a second here. What if, and yes this is a big if, you could actually TURN OFF the Kinect at anytime, making it impossible for Microsoft so spy on you while you're playing CoD? Would that do anything for you?
Because it would undermine the entire reason you're pissed to begin with, wouldn't it?
That's the point you can't turn it off because it's built into the system,if you try to turn the Kinect 2.0 off then you won't be able to use the Xbone.Also I'm not buying it because I'm getting a 3DS this holiday season but I take privacy concerns really seriously and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the Xbone will record a person's every move.
"Yes, you can turn the system completely off," the Microsoft rep said. "This would use no power and turn everything off. We?ll share more details about how it all works later." I believe this powering off involves the aforementioned power button.
You turn off the kinect by turning off the whole console. It's already been confirmed elsewhere that kinect is integral to the xbone and cannot be turned off.
No, I admitted early on that there is valid criticism being brought forward, just like I said that (and still do) there is a lot of invalid criticism as well. What I'm objecting to is the way people are expressing it. I brought up the bullying of people who planned to purchase the next Xbox that has occurred all over the web as an example of this mob-like behavior that I'm objecting to.
I don't actually believe that you wouldn't object against that kind of behavior as well. Besides, implying that there is an existence of such a mob defined by this irrational hatred of Microsoft isn't the same as implying that everyone who, forever reason, dislike the new (such as you) Xbox belongs to that mob. That's a complete and utter straw-man, right there.
fozzy360 said:
Stop bringing up Kinect to discredit your opposition because that isn't the main reason why there's so much brouhaha in the first place.
I brought up Kinect because it was the issue raised by the user I originally replied to. The other two points I recognize would be the 24-hour online verification requirement and their used games policy.
fozzy360 said:
Once again, all you see is what you want to see, and what you want to see is nothing but baseless, vitriolic hate, which is far from the truth.
You turn off the kinect by turning off the whole console. It's already been confirmed elsewhere that kinect is integral to the xbone and cannot be turned off.
"You definitely will have the software capability to turn off all the capabilities of Kinect."
Sounds to be that you can turn it off - just not with a physical switch but on an OS level. Shouldn't make any difference whatsoever for the consumer, though.
It's so very refreshing to see these kind of threads that go against the myopic Internet masses and and comes with an original opinion - or rather - a well-founded and not overly biased and jaundiced opinion.
Okay. So, where to begin. First off, defending something (like 24 hour check-ins) by saying, "It won't effect me though" is quite silly. What happens if the xbones servers go down for more than 24 hours? Remember when playstation network was hacked? Then you'll have a 500 dollar brick that plays no games for a month. What happens if in 8 years, microsoft releases the xbone 2: lots of bone, and decides to shut down the xbone's servers. Then you will no longer be able to play any games on the xbone. And just saying "Well they wouldn't do that" is not a good defense. Microsoft shut down the X1's live system, why wouldn't they do it to the xbone? 24 hour check ins are useless and only restrict the consumer.
Next, saying "the price is basically the same" is completely false. PS4 is 400, xbone is 500. The addition of the kinect changes that in no way. Microsoft has not showed how the kinect will be better than the first one (like actually showing it in motion, except maybe the opening press conference). If Kinect 2: resurrection is as bad as the first one, and the first one was bad, then you'll have payed an extra 100 dollars for something that actively hurts you.
All the other stuff has pretty much been gone over by the others in this thread. kudos to dexter for making a very well thought out, and unquoted by the OP and his defenders I might add, statement that systematically destroyed most of the OP's defenses.
I remember first reading about all of the restrictive, invasive bullshit Microsoft is trying to cram down our throats and thinking to myself, "Well no one can possibly defend this, right?".
Oh, internet. You never cease to amaze/depress me.
You seem like a rather ardent Xbox ?defender??, so I?m sure arguing with you won?t make much sense, but maybe it?ll get some sense into bystanders? so here it goes:
mKeRix said:
1. Used games:
The blockade of selling used games is entirely up to the publisher, so are the fees. What Microsoft has done here is an official way of what already happened before. Remember the Online Passes? That's just like that. Nobody has has to use them. They can. Now, if EA would decide to be a dick and use it - what would happen? They'd do it on every platform. They won't be interested in holding up Sony's image of the messiah console, they want their money. So afaik, it doesn't matter. The possibilities are there on both platforms.
Wrong. Microsoft instated said policy and approached publishers for it, there is nothing ?optional? about it for you as a consumer.
In their very own words: http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license
?Trade-in and resell your disc-based games: Today, some gamers choose to sell their old disc-based games back for cash and credit. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers. Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games.
[?]
In our role as a game publisher, Microsoft Studios will enable you to give your games to friends or trade in your Xbox One games at participating retailers. Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers. Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this.
The ?optional? part doesn?t lie in blocking used games, that is a given. The optional part is if they don?t allow you to sell any of your games at all or publishers will allow to sell games at ?participating retailers? (to their conditions of course).
mKeRix said:
2. Game sharing:
After Sony's admittedly hilarious video about sharing games (which was also perceived as childish by some, but I think these little slaps are fun in a way) people have been saying that you won't be able to share games on the XBone. Well, yes and no. You can still share games, you can give your game to up to 10 of your friends without even having to hand them your disc, they'll just have it on their account and can easily download and play it right away. The only thing here is, you need to have them on your friends list for at least 30 days and you can only give them them every game once. But honestly, I don't think that's too limiting. I wouldn't hand out my games to people that I just met either. And if you know them for a while and they just made a new account, then 30 days isn't bad either. Apart from that, I've never seen anyone rent a game twice. If you like it after playing it, you usually just buy it.
Wrong. Again, in their very own words: http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license
?Give your games to friends: Xbox One is designed so game publishers can enable you to give your disc-based games to your friends. There are no fees charged as part of these transfers. There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once.
In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends. Loaning or renting games won?t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.
It clearly states that game publishers again can allow you to give your game to a friend (they don?t have to) and each game can only be given once.
They have also stated:
Give your family access to your entire games library anytime, anywhere: Xbox One will enable new forms of access for families. Up to ten members of your family can log in and play from your shared games library on any Xbox One. Just like today, a family member can play your copy of Forza Motorsport at a friend?s house. Only now, they will see not just Forza, but all of your shared games. You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time.
Anything that you stated can?t be read out of this paragraph, it doesn?t say how they want to make sure that these people are indeed your family members, it contains new vocabulary like ?shared games library? that hasn?t been assigned any meaning yet. It doesn?t even say if they can play one of your games while you play another or not e.g. if there is a Login restriction to one person at once.
Renting and Loaning are out altogether.
mKeRix said:
3. 24h offline time:
This is a point I can't say much about. I can think of many reasons why they'd do such a thing, but there's nothing I really want to defend here. For me it's no problem at all, I like my games and consoles (and PC) for the online multiplayer, but I see why it would bother people. On the other hand, I'm sure this is nothing they couldn't change. It happened before, so you can hope. If you know you'll be offline for longer than a day, then definitely don't buy the XBone yet though.
Wrong. If people should have learned anything from the Diablo III and Sim City debacles then that this ?isn?t any problem for me? is a fallacy.
People are also concentrating too much on what can go wrong on *their* side of the connection to try and explain this away, when the problem often lies with the provider.
Microsoft has had several prominent outages of their cloud service for business clients in the past:
http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2013/02/25/windows-azure-cloud-crashed-by-expired-ssl-certificate/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/29/windows_azure_outage/
http://www.searchenginejournal.com/microsofts-cloud-based-office-365-experiences-second-major-outage-in-less-than-a-month/33279/
Also remember the PSN outage that lasted over 3 weeks? With this kind of system in place nobody would have been able to play any of their owned games.
There?s also server maintenance, load issues when a specific game starts (Sim City and Diablo III say hello), hacks/DDOS attacks, routing issues (is your university using some sort of Proxy or do they block specific services?) or any kind of ways people could be negatively impacted by this.
Leaving aside the obvious direct consequences there?s additionally dozen of ?ways? this will indirectly affect everyone gullible enough to buy into this system in ways of eliminating ownership rights as a concept for games, what they are ?allowed? to do with their games by their new master and it will be a major problem with future-proofing. (What happens when the Microsoft servers go down? People can still play ?PC? and console games from the 70s and 80s fine, the ?Xbox One? might have a relatively short time-spam.)
mKeRix said:
4. Evil spying Kinect:
This wrong, just wrong. It has been confirmed that the Kinect can be turned off completely long ago, and you won't be spied. The Kinect itself is also a fairly useful tool, I own a Kinect 1 and there are some fun games for it out there, and it adds functionality by voice commands etc. I know people don't like being forced to get a product, but it's entirely possible that there will be an "Arcade" edition like with the 360, which is cheaper and delivered without Kinect. "Why did Microsoft do this in the first place?" you could ask now. To prevent segmentation. This way everyone has the same setup and games can be designed in that way. Apart from that I believe that if people don't try something new over time, things can't evolve.
Partially Wrong.
Again in Microsoft?s own words: http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/privacy
You are in control of when Kinect sensing is On, Off or Paused: If you don?t want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect. To turn off your Xbox One, just say ?Xbox Off.? When the system is off, it?s only listening for the single voice command -- ?Xbox On,? and you can even turn that feature off too. Some apps and games may require Kinect functionality to operate, so you?ll need to turn it back on for these experiences.
This basically just says that you can pull it from the electrical outlet and then it?s off. While the console is running it has to always be connecting. They haven?t exactly explained what ?Pausing Kinect? does.
There are various other paragraphs that hint to them sharing your data with their partners:
You are in control of what Kinect can see and hear: By design, you will determine how responsive and personalized your Xbox One is to you and your family during setup. The system will navigate you through key privacy options, like automatic or manual sign in, privacy settings, and clear notifications about how data is used. When Xbox One is on and you?re simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded.
You are in control of your personal data: You can play games or enjoy applications that use data, such as videos, photos, facial expressions, heart rate and more, but this data will not leave your Xbox One without your explicit permission.
What does constitute this ?explicit permission?? Signing an EULA containing a privacy section enough?
There are also at least several rather worrying patent applications to say the least.
For instance serving you Advertisements and watching your face for emotions: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/06/kinect-to-watch-your-emotions.html
They also filed a patent for counting the number of people in the room and charging you a per-person rate: http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2012-11/kinect-watching-you-watch-television-so-it-can-charge-you-body
Another patent is for Achievements in regards to watching TV and Advertisements: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-24-microsoft-applies-for-patent-on-tv-achievements
"Television viewing tends to be a passive experience for a viewer, without many opportunities for the viewer to engage or have interactive experiences with the presented content," the application states. "To increase interactive viewing and encourage a user to watch one or more particular items of video content, awards and achievements may be tied to those items of video content."
Two examples given include doling out achievements for watching a single event like the Super Bowl, or for watching an entire series of a single show.
"Additionally, by tying the awards and achievements to particular items of video or advertising content, viewers may be encouraged to increase their viewership of the content, thus increasing advertising opportunities," according to the application.
Microsoft also envisioned using the Kinect motion-sensing camera in tandem with this system. For example, achievements may be tied to viewers performing specific actions while they watch a show. The system can make sure the user is simply in the room while it plays, or it can tell the user to hold up a specific product. The camera would then scan the item held up and reward the user with an achievement.
A Microsoft Exec has also said years ago that they may use it to record objects: http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/kinects-camera-could-record-data-for-advertisers/
Microsoft?s Dennis Durkin said yesterday that Kinect could help the company ?be more targeted about what content choices we present; what advertising we present; how to get better feedback and data; about how many people are in a room when an advertisement is shown; how many people are in a room when a game in being played.? As users can see when playing the games, the camera can differentiate between different players, and this can actually extend to judging how much viewers are interested in any given game. Kinect also can record sound, which makes the job even easier.
Durkin gave an example, saying if people were watching a sporting event, the camera could see what jerseys they were wearing and deduce what team they support. Then advertisers would be able to specifically tailor to them.
I don?t know why this doesn?t seem to bother that many people, it personally would bother me a lot.
mKeRix said:
5. Hardware:
The hardware isn't too different, really. You have about the same specs in both consoles, if I trust some of the other posts I read the XBone is slightly worse, but that's nothing you could notice. Apart from that, Microsoft has the whole cloud computing thing going, and while you might start laughing at me now, this is the future and even Sony knows it.
Wrong. As someone already said, the PS3 seems to be a lot more powerful: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
There were also rumors that Microsoft clocked down the GPU of the console because of problems and they are having problems with ESRAM yields: http://www.gamechup.com/microsoft-has-underclocked-xbox-one-gpu-clocks-having-esram-yield-problems/
In regards to cloud gaming, that is a blatant lie.
I already wrote my piece about it before, so I?ll just copy it here:
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of how normal Multiplayer games work and what in this instance is being referred to as ?cloud?.
To simplify this somewhat let?s take Counter Strike and a bunch of players playing on a server.
There?s a Client and a Server and there are two basic steps that happen at the same time.
The Client does something (like fire his gun) or move around or changes state from standing to crouch or similar. The Client now sends this data as basic updated x/y/z coordinates and values to the Server.
At the same time the Server has received the last batch of updates from all connected Clients the same way and proceeds to send it out to everyone. This also includes if it has registered a weapon hit and how much damage has been done. The latency is effectively only your Ping time to the Server.
Most of the net code is also held rather simple (player character positions and states, hit/no hit and in some rare instances also bullet trajectories and speed or impact points for decals. You will not see many games that try and transfer physics, debris, particles or anything like that to players (even if the final representation is computed Client-side and you see these things), since depending on how many players are involved the amount of data and bandwidth required goes up exponentially. At best you will also see some position coordinates of a certain event having happened there and all the computations for debris and particle stuff usually happens Client-side and doesn?t look exactly the same for every player (which leads to synch issues between players, but they are usually minor and don?t impact gameplay).
What would happen in this ?Cloud? situation as proposed by Microsoft is different though.
First you have a level being rendered locally on your machine/console and let?s say you would want to offload something like physics or lighting to said Server.
What happens here is that first the Client has to send specific data connected to a certain event (in considerably larger amounts than simple positions or state changes) to the Server, for instance meshes for the involved objects (if you want to dent a barrel with an axe it needs the meshes for at least these two objects and the collision point and angle), it would also require material details or similar and possibly lighting data and other stuff like various maps used on the object. This is all being sent to the Server, the Server then has to process all that data, compute the event that just happened and send the results back to the Client and the Client basically has no other choice than to wait till the Server is done with whatever it is doing and sends its results in a similar data-intensive way (like a malformed mesh of said object(s) and whatever map changes might be required etc.) so it can update the rendering on your local machine.
At 60 Frames per second the entire process (both back and forth) would require a latency of 16.6ms at maximum in the totality of this process, even at 30 FPS this is still a stretch with 33.3ms and to be quite frank not really possible.
The process would potentially be even more complicated than ?OnLive?, since in that case you are only sending control commands from your controller directly to the server instead of any game data and it does all the computing based on those commands Server-side, then a lossy/fast encoding process takes place and it sends back the picture to you.
At most Microsoft will offer "pretend tasks/jobs" outsourced to their servers like in the already oft-mentioned Sim City or even Diablo III to make it seem like what they are referring to as the "cloud" is needed, but offering resource, bandwidth and latency-intensive tasks for rendering over it isn't really feasible.
I'm not sure why people need to explain this over and over again though, since the 2nd Post in this very thread has a link to a rather good source explaining most of it: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming
Especially the article at the end is worth reading though: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming
mKeRix said:
6. Features:
The XBone is an entertainment device, and it's being marketed as such. Personally, I'd be happy if my device could do more, not mad as many others. I can use Skype, watch TV, play games, record, upload and stream... I'm happy about features. It works just like a small PC (I know, PC master race bla bla), and I think that this is good that way. I would like to see a unified experience over all devices one day.
Neutral. You are probably referring to their initial reveal conference that focused only on TV TV TV TV SPORTS SPORTS SPORTS. It should be rather clear that this is a gaming console though and people won?t buy hardware for $500 to do what their WDTV Live or Roku can do for under $100 or to use it as an advanced remote. Concentrating on that gives you prudence on where their priorities lie though (which didn?t seem to be gaming that much). They did kind of present a lot (and only) games at E3. So I don?t know if that will be a major issue.
mKeRix said:
7. Controller:
For some reason I also found some people complaining about the controller. I can't really understand that, for me the XBox controller has always been the best one on the market right now. Wasn't able to hold a PS4 controller so far, but the PS3 ones were none I could really play with.
This is only my opinion, but I personally liked the new Controller with the improved Thumbsticks and D-Pad, it?s something I?d like to have for my PC. It?s about the only thing I liked about it though.
mKeRix said:
8. Design:
The simple design (even though it really shouldn't matter) is used so it can fit anywhere in your living room. It's elegant and I like it. Your choice. Although both consoles don't look too different.
I guess that depends on your perspective and taste, but the PS4 has better hardware and seems to be a lot smaller than the Xbone:
mKeRix said:
10. Price:
I know, I know, money doesn't grow on trees. However, the console price is essentially the same for both. What makes up the other 100 dollars are the extra things in the package, like the Kinect, that you'd have to purchase separately for the PS4. And Gold doesn't count as an argument either, Microsoft and Sony both do the paying for multiplayer now. And so far, Microsoft's servers seem more powerful (waiting for statement on Sony's side), and they've been that way in the past as well.
Wrong. One console costs $399, the other $499, there?s no about of whitewashing that is going to change that. A lot of people don?t like or want the Kinect, especially since it has to be always connected for the damn thing to work, see above.
And as I told someone before:
Every single sentence in your long post is saying something in defense of practices that will actively harm and disadvantage you, it is mindboggling how people get into that mindset in the first place.
It wouldn't be so infuriating if I knew that you'd be paid by Microsoft or something, but assuming that isn't the case I really, really don't get it.
What kind of advantages or benefits do you get from any of these policy being inflicted upon you with some of the newest games that you feel the need to defend it is what I'd like to know.
TomWiley said:
It's so very refreshing to see these kind of threads that go against the myopic Internet masses and and comes with an original opinion - or rather - a well-founded and not overly biased and jaundiced opinion.
This current wave of, well, straight out hatred for the Xbox One is an overreaction, but it's still damaging. It's depressing seeing users on various forums being bullied just for admitting to planning to buy an Xbox. The gaming community is like a reactionary mob - one opinion and no original thinking. Right now the mob is trending to hatred of Microsoft, tomorrow it'll be trending to hatred of something else, perhaps even Sony when their next inevitably dick-move has happened.
What's worse is the way the parasitic game "journalism" takes advantage to this and writes headlines such as "How Sony defeated Microsoft - the final blow", designed to appeal to the mob (and get hits).
It?s funny that you are using ?original? opinion. Because opinions can be original a lot, but that doesn?t make them right or correct by any measure. In full knowledge that I?m godwinning ?gas chambers are great? might be an ?original? opinion, I would much deny that it is a right or correct one though.
I've absolutely no idea how this thread continued when each and every argument put forth by the OP was meticulously de-constructed by Dexter, every point (Baring the personal ones; controller and design) has been refuted with either multiple sources or Microsofts own terms. But to further this issue is that it does not matter what anybody including Microsoft say, all that matters is what the terms and conditions say, because that is what you're held to not to what some CEO or PR man promises
Doesn't it all seem a bit restrictive to you? Like if you had a coke machine and a pepsi machine but every time you wanted a coke it made you fill out a form?
Honestly no, I never trade in games this days nor trade with friends and am always online. Chances are I'll go PS4 due the price, but I guess i am exactly the target consumer microsoft had in mind as the limitations mean nothing to me.
OT: I agree with you OP, sadly the kinect is not worth 100 bucks for me atm. If they release some cool hacks and make it worthwhile for the PC i might consider it; god knows the current kinect has some cool applications for your PC.
I remember first reading about all of the restrictive, invasive bullshit Microsoft is trying to cram down our throats and thinking to myself, "Well no one can possibly defend this, right?".
Oh, internet. You never cease to amaze/depress me.
I wouldn't call the OP's opinion retarded, and it was the OP's opinion we discussed, but thanks for exemplifying the needlessly-hostile-mob stereotype I was working with before.
2. Game sharing:
After Sony's admittedly hilarious video about sharing games (which was also perceived as childish by some, but I think these little slaps are fun in a way) people have been saying that you won't be able to share games on the XBone. Well, yes and no. You can still share games, you can give your game to up to 10 of your friends without even having to hand them your disc, they'll just have it on their account and can easily download and play it right away. The only thing here is, you need to have them on your friends list for at least 30 days and you can only give them them every game once. But honestly, I don't think that's too limiting. I wouldn't hand out my games to people that I just met either. And if you know them for a while and they just made a new account, then 30 days isn't bad either. Apart from that, I've never seen anyone rent a game twice. If you like it after playing it, you usually just buy it.
Okay, I'm surprised people are taking this at face value. I'll eat my shoes if there isn't some restriction on this they haven't mentioned or have used PR speak to confuse us about. I mean, that way I would just split games with my friend, say CoD or Fifa which I sink many hours into. If two can play simultaneously we'll just pay £20 each, which would be worse than the pre-owned shit for Microsoft and publishers.
4. Evil spying Kinect:
This wrong, just wrong. It has been confirmed that the Kinect can be turned off completely long ago, and you won't be spied. The Kinect itself is also a fairly useful tool, I own a Kinect 1 and there are some fun games for it out there, and it adds functionality by voice commands etc. I know people don't like being forced to get a product, but it's entirely possible that there will be an "Arcade" edition like with the 360, which is cheaper and delivered without Kinect. "Why did Microsoft do this in the first place?" you could ask now. To prevent segmentation. This way everyone has the same setup and games can be designed in that way. Apart from that I believe that if people don't try something new over time, things can't evolve.
Microsoft have already announced that the Kinect is mandatory. Perhaps they'll back track, but I doubt it. The kinect camera can be turned off, they did say that. The audio recording? Not so much. And hell, all you have to know is that you can say "Xbox On" to turn the damn thing on, and you must realise the microphone is always listening. And year, I doubt microsoft has any plans to record your conversations, but if the NSA and PRISM are liver-reading emails and IM, listening to phonecalls, what makes you believe the Xbone is immune?
You turn off the kinect by turning off the whole console. It's already been confirmed elsewhere that kinect is integral to the xbone and cannot be turned off.
"You definitely will have the software capability to turn off all the capabilities of Kinect."
Sounds to be that you can turn it off - just not with a physical switch but on an OS level. Shouldn't make any difference whatsoever for the consumer, though.
The Xbox One will have region protection plus, if you don't live in a supported country the Xbox will not authenticate your game:
Xbox One games are for activation and distribution only in specified geographic regions. See game package and/or retailer product information, for each game?s specific geographic regions.
www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/pre-order-xbox-one/disclaimer
So yeah, when Hideo Kojima said he can't wait to see how good his game will look on the Xbox One, it will have to be at an unspecified time since as of this time there is no release date set for Japan (and due to this no one in Japan will be able to play the Xbox One.
This sums it up pretty well:
I'm going to respond to #6 here. I don't know if this is a rehash of what someone else said, thread was TLR... ah well.
When you hear the phrase Xbox, what primarily comes to mind? Is it watching Netflix in your underwear? Having an array of television channels at your disposal?
Nope, it's gaming of course. While Microsoft may not be marketing it as such, nonetheless, that doesn't change the strong image. Of course, MS are perfectly within their rights to reinvent, HOWEVER, they also have to accept risk in doing so, ESPECIALLY if that transition is going to be as ham-fisted as it looks. We do not owe them a free-pass, nor do we owe them apologetics until they've sufficiently demonstrate how these changes are beneficial. So far, myself - and many other potential customers - do not see the proposed features USPs in any way, shape, or form, at least, not to the extent of justifying the extra $100 (more if you live outside the US). We already have devices which do the above, and far better to boot. These are no more than convenient extras to us, not selling points.
For being 'innovative' and 'bringing a range of appealing features', does this admonish MS of criticism? Of course not. Does the idea of a device which allows you to watch tv on your tv not sound even slightly ridiculous? Had it continued in a similar vein as 360 and allowed these features to COMPLEMENT the more traditional aspects (as opposed to partake in a dick-slinging contest with), I'm sure it would be getting off far more lightly.
Right now, I just want to try some of what Microsoft is smoking. Probably more fun than sitting at home with a bricked console.
Yeah I've seen the words "FUCK YOU" being used in this very thread to address the Xbox-defenders, so if you disapprove of not giving people shit for prefer one piece of hardware over another, then I can already welcome you to my camp.
EDIT: The Escapist is comparably decent compared to many other sites such as Reddit those, where there's a witch hunt going on.
While I'm all for treating people kindly on the Internet, I don't know if I necessarily want to be in your camp. Does the XB1 have some kind of feature/features that you want and you're buying it because of that? Then yes, you're a-ok with me. Are you defending the XB1 with reasons like "it could be worse" or "its not that bad" and "my opinion is better because less people agree"? Then I'm going to have to say "no". The XB1 doesn't need "defenders". It either has what you want, or it doesn't. If it doesn't have any features you can tote, then you shouldn't be buying it. Its that simple. Anything else and people are just buying for brand loyalty they don't understand.
I disapprove the direction Microsoft wants to take the industry. The idea that I can't own physical copies of a game without some company constantly checking to make sure its my property and I didn't steal it pisses me the fuck off. I don't care if my Internet is stable and can support it, its the principle of things. I shouldn't have to bend over for an entertainment company, they should bend over for me. If people want to support such a device then they need to have good reasons (like that game sharing via the Internet thing)
And yeah, thank god for the escapist's moderation. Its nice that people can't just cock around and have to contribute to discussions rather than waste our time (though my post may be pushing it a little)
You turn off the kinect by turning off the whole console. It's already been confirmed elsewhere that kinect is integral to the xbone and cannot be turned off.
"You definitely will have the software capability to turn off all the capabilities of Kinect."
Sounds to be that you can turn it off - just not with a physical switch but on an OS level. Shouldn't make any difference whatsoever for the consumer, though.
Oh my bad, I included the wrong link with my original post. You must have quoted me before I updated with the right one. But how is it out of context when it directly confirms that you can turn off "all the capabilities of the Kinect"?
When you hear the phrase Xbox, what primarily comes to mind? Is it watching Netflix in your underwear? Having an array of television channels at your disposal?
Agreed.
One of the silliest things about this whole Xbone ordeal: M$ spent over a decade specifically attaching the Xbox brand to gaming, and all of a sudden they want to rebrand it as an "all in one" system instead because they're uncertain if gamers alone will accept it.
I mean, they have to be aware that they've already eliminated a great deal of their existing gaming market just with the Online-Verification fuckery.
"Oh, it's reaching out to a broader audience. Not just gamers."
Except that audience, that market that supposedly craves Smart TVs, DVDs and Blu Ray ALREADY HAVE a plethora of goods and services that satisfy that.
There are three two true next-gen consoles heading into the mainstream market here; TWO.
Compared to the HUNDREDS of DVD/Blu Ray players and Smart TVs out on the market. Why dilute that distinction?
Hey,
after seeing all the hype around the PS4 and (often even unjust) hate against the XBone I felt like I should post this thread. First of, note that while I'll try to go by facts, I can't be completely objective. I'm fully aware that I'll go against popular opinion with this post, but looking at prior experience with the Escapist forums I hope to find at least a few people who are willing to discuss like proper people and without all the hype.
Now, let's get started. I've been checking different sites over the last few days and have talked to quite a bit of people about the new generation. As Yahtzee already said, you don't have to buy any console, but people feel like they do, so that's what causes these problems. That divides sites into either a PS4 fanbase or an XBone fanbase, because others just don't want to join a thread where people are going wild about the other console.
Let me start off that personally, I think both consoles are good. Both are on par when it comes to technical details and so on, they are just aiming to do different things. And let me note that even if the XBone will fail horribly (more than certain it won't, more about that later), that's not the end of Microsoft. That's just the vocal voices of a few on the internet.
Let's address the main points that people have been criticizing over the last few days:
1. Used games:
The blockade of selling used games is entirely up to the publisher, so are the fees. What Microsoft has done here is an official way of what already happened before. Remember the Online Passes? That's just like that. Nobody has has to use them. They can. Now, if EA would decide to be a dick and use it - what would happen? They'd do it on every platform. They won't be interested in holding up Sony's image of the messiah console, they want their money. So afaik, it doesn't matter. The possibilities are there on both platforms.
2. Game sharing:
After Sony's admittedly hilarious video about sharing games (which was also perceived as childish by some, but I think these little slaps are fun in a way) people have been saying that you won't be able to share games on the XBone. Well, yes and no. You can still share games, you can give your game to up to 10 of your friends without even having to hand them your disc, they'll just have it on their account and can easily download and play it right away. The only thing here is, you need to have them on your friends list for at least 30 days and you can only give them them every game once. But honestly, I don't think that's too limiting. I wouldn't hand out my games to people that I just met either. And if you know them for a while and they just made a new account, then 30 days isn't bad either. Apart from that, I've never seen anyone rent a game twice. If you like it after playing it, you usually just buy it.
UPDATE: Mixed this up a little bit, but thankfully [user]9thRequiem[/user] clarified it:
9thRequiem said:
This is two separate things.
One is that up to 10 friends can be in your "Family", and can play your games whenever they like, though each game can only be played by one friend at a time. This is "Sharing" games. I have no idea why this feature isn't widely loved - Share games, with close friends, without needing a disc. If Microsoft went down the Sony route and made a snarky video, maybe things would be clearer.
Separately, there's "Giving" games, which can be done to anyone who's been on your friends list for at least 30 days and can only be done once. After giving someone a game, you no longer have it. This is a much less useful feature, but still beats Steam's game giving.
3. 24h offline time:
This is a point I can't say much about. I can think of many reasons why they'd do such a thing, but there's nothing I really want to defend here. For me it's no problem at all, I like my games and consoles (and PC) for the online multiplayer, but I see why it would bother people. On the other hand, I'm sure this is nothing they couldn't change. It happened before, so you can hope. If you know you'll be offline for longer than a day, then definitely don't buy the XBone yet though.
4. Evil spying Kinect:
This wrong, just wrong. It has been confirmed that the Kinect can be turned off completely long ago, and you won't be spied. The Kinect itself is also a fairly useful tool, I own a Kinect 1 and there are some fun games for it out there, and it adds functionality by voice commands etc. I know people don't like being forced to get a product, but it's entirely possible that there will be an "Arcade" edition like with the 360, which is cheaper and delivered without Kinect. "Why did Microsoft do this in the first place?" you could ask now. To prevent segmentation. This way everyone has the same setup and games can be designed in that way. Apart from that I believe that if people don't try something new over time, things can't evolve.
5. Hardware:
The hardware isn't too different, really. You have about the same specs in both consoles, if I trust some of the other posts I read the XBone is slightly worse, but that's nothing you could notice. Apart from that, Microsoft has the whole cloud computing thing going, and while you might start laughing at me now, this is the future and even Sony knows it.
6. Features:
The XBone is an entertainment device, and it's being marketed as such. Personally, I'd be happy if my device could do more, not mad as many others. I can use Skype, watch TV, play games, record, upload and stream... I'm happy about features. It works just like a small PC (I know, PC master race bla bla), and I think that this is good that way. I would like to see a unified experience over all devices one day.
7. Controller:
For some reason I also found some people complaining about the controller. I can't really understand that, for me the XBox controller has always been the best one on the market right now. Wasn't able to hold a PS4 controller so far, but the PS3 ones were none I could really play with.
8. Design:
The simple design (even though it really shouldn't matter) is used so it can fit anywhere in your living room. It's elegant and I like it. Your choice. Although both consoles don't look too different.
9. Games/Exclusives:
This is anyone's game. If you like the PS4's exclusives, go buy that. If you like the XBone's games (of which there are more announced at the moment), go buy that.
10. Price:
I know, I know, money doesn't grow on trees. However, the console price is essentially the same for both. What makes up the other 100 dollars are the extra things in the package, like the Kinect, that you'd have to purchase separately for the PS4. And Gold doesn't count as an argument either, Microsoft and Sony both do the paying for multiplayer now. And so far, Microsoft's servers seem more powerful (waiting for statement on Sony's side), and they've been that way in the past as well.
Now, as you can see, both consoles are not too different. They are both good. They are selling well, and none of them has any big advnatge. The amount of pre-orders is basically the same for both (according to Amazon). This is still early in the "war", so we can only see how it ends once both are out for a while. The XBone will grab a lot of the casuals, while the PS4 currently is mostly bought by "hardcore gamers" as you could say. It's a choice of target group that can go either way. Apart from that, nothing is set in stone yet, we still have a couple of months to go. So, a plea of mine, if you see any of these ridiculous fan circle jerks, don't join them. You can decide what you want to buy, and you can tell anyone why you'd want to buy it, but we don't need another post about how great one console is. It changes nothing if you say Microsoft is doomed a thousand times, look at SimCity - everyone said they're not going to buy it, but it still sold well. The people on forums don't make up the largest amount of buyers.
Both consoles are good. And please don't forget that no company is an angel, they all don't know you and need to make profit, that's how it works. We've seen that often enough in the past.
Okay, this rounds up all the things I wanted to comment on (if I didn't forget anything). I'm open to discuss anything on this topic with you, if you deliver valid arguments.
As far as controllers and witch hardware is better, that is the last thing we should look at. Controllers both are great and both feel different for different people, smaller hands, bigger hands, overall taste on looks. Hardware while PS4 has better specs will not run DirectX 11 library but instead OpenGL. So we will not see big differences on games, only maybe from the first parties not 3rd.
Now about DRM, used games, lending games etc.
You might not have a problem with their vision of the console or their strategy and that is ok.
But you have to understand the difference between only the publisher been able to use any kind of DRM and the console have implement in DRM.
Say there is an X game on both platforms, without any kind of DRM from the publisher. On Xbox One I cannot take it with me and go to a place without internet connection (summer house - cottage) for 3 days and play the game, while on the PS4 I can.
You don't know me and I don't know you, on the Xbox One I cannot trade you or lend you the game without you paying for a fee (where we still don't know the cost) while on the PS4 I can.
But as you said why should you lend a game to a stranger? You can lend it to a friend (with all Microsoft's restrictions), you are making here one mistake. Yes If you lend it once he or she will be able to beat the game done with it and if they liked it so much they will buy it. But think about this: you have a fighting game, say SoulCalibur, you lend it once, they play it had fun for as long as they had it and returned it back to you, without having interest buying the game, cannot afford it or saving for another title. But 5 months later, your friend wants to gather with some people from work-school thinking now "It would be nice to have SoulCalibur to play with the guys but my friend already gave it to me once"
There is always a reason for someone to lend a game more than once. Another one is you give it, they don't have time you finish it and you asking it back for your own reasons.
Can you imagine if that kind of a policy where applied on hardware?
There's a link here that I'm not sure some people are seeing.
Microsoft has explicitly stated that you will need a broadband connection in order to use an XBox One. I mean, there might be some workaround with a dial-up modem that you could use to make the XBone call Microsoft once a day, but let's get serious: if you don't have round-the-clock Internet access, your console is quickly going to brick itself. Microsoft has said that in essence they aren't interested in the custom of users who don't have that access. And while some people might like to claim otherwise, there are still a significant number of people who don't have a broadband Internet connection- it's too great an expense, it simply isn't available in their area, or it's there but with prohibitive data caps.
Sony has equally explicitly stated that you do not need broadband Internet in order to use the PS4. There will be a non-trivial base of users who choose to use their consoles offline. There will be players who choose to spend their time on single-player experiences, and despite the fervid desires of certain companies, social and multi-player games that allow companies to put out new content in dribs and drabs with the assurance that players will spend most of their time entertaining each other are not all there is to the market.
What follows:
If any company decides to implement a stricter hold on their games- additional fees or barring on resale, banning rentals, locking people out of their games for perceived violations of terms of service- Microsoft has explicitly given them the means to do so, and implicitly suggested that they were okay with them doing so. Everyone who buys an XBox One has given them the go-ahead to use or abuse those "safeties" as they see fit.
There might be isolated pockets of protest if individual companies do decide to implement draconian policies, but that's what they'll remain: isolated pockets. You decided to wear the collar; you're surprised now that they've attached a leash? Every "Oh, it's the way of things, get used to it" argument relies on this perception of inevitability and slow slides rather than an actual recognition of what's at stake or what's lost. When a company like Microsoft can set up a situation like this one, their battle is already three-quarters won.
Conversely, with Sony explicitly enabling people to play offline, every time a company decides to implement a restrictive policy dependent on broadband, they've just left a significant portion of the customers that Sony loudly declared were a-okay out in the cold. There won't be an isolated, ignorable stink about that- there will be a fit from every PS4 owner who's paying attention. "The company that sold me my console told me that things wouldn't be like that, and you broke faith."
Which in my eyes is how it should be, frankly. We need more single-player games requiring network connections like I need syphilis.
The standards and examples that companies set matter. What Microsoft has shown is that it's the publishers, not the buyers of their console, that they view as the parties to be appeased. Sony has shown the opposite. I'll grant there are still unknowns in how Sony's policies will pan out, but the spirit of the law is at least in the right place. Microsoft's policies are wrongheaded from the get-go, and we'd be fools to ignore that.
It just feels like it isn't that easy. It feels like this debate is not longer about what the Xbox has or hasn't got, but rather whether what Microsoft is doing with the Xbox is unethical, or if the console really deserves all the hate.
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R... ah well.
