Witcher 2 Dev Defends Asking €1000 From Pirates

[Aeshi]

No offense, but you need to learn to read.

I didn't say they're not doing well, I said the douchebags don't care if the company can't make enough money.

You didn't mean that about CDPR, but you put it into your rebuttal to another post in regards to piracy and CDPR? I wasn't trying to be a dick, but you commented in such a way about a particular topic that made it seem like that is what you are saying. I did read it.

Now, that being said, I'm not looking for a flame war. I do not condone piracy, so we are in complete agreement there. But it has proven time and time again that heavy handed tactics against piracy do not work. By not work, I literally mean that it does not prevent pirates from illegally cracking and distributing games.

And with complete respect, you are making the argument that pirated copies are lost sales. That is a simply not able to be proven.

1) Anti-Virus software doesn't prevent Hackers from just creating a Virus that it can't detect, Medicine doesn't prevent Viruses/Bacteria from just evolving/mutating into something capable of shrugging it off yet everyone seems content to let them push their metaphorical boulder up the hill.

2) It doesn't matter whether they would've bought the game or not, they did not buy the game, they should not have it. Or else the legit buyers are just going to ask "Why should I pay for this when they get it for free?"

 

[Baresark]

I will not understand their arbitrary number for the money they are asking. It defies reason. If there are so many people you definitively know stole the game (a fantasy if you will), how are they within their right to ask for more than a copy of the game.

If the punishment for defrauding CD Projekt is the price of the game, what is there to lose by pirating it and hoping you don't get caught?

Oh yeah, the mark on your criminal record.

Piracy is a risk assessment like any other - even on a simplistic level, the following comparison occurs:

Which is the greater cost:
1) The price of Witcher 2 if I legally purchase it (a probability of 1.00)
2) If I am caught, the fine I will pay for software fraud and the potential loss of income-earning employment opportunities in futuro because a company turned me down due to my criminal record (a probability of X)

Obviously, pirates believe X is small enough to offset the substantial life-long penalty, so much so that it's LESS than $40 (or whatever Witcher 2's price is).

That's a really tiny estimation of X.

CD Projekt is addressing the public and the pirate community's valuation of X. If we get X high enough that Option 1 is cheaper than Option 2, piracy will end.

That explanation works in a world where people do not commit crimes because they fear the penalty of being caught. It has been proven through the prison systems and psychology that people commit crimes with complete disregard to the penalty. It's not just simple risk assessment that prevents me from robbing banks. That is a simplistic explanation of the number.

Though, as an aside, I always said that if I were poor and desolate, living on the streets, I would rob a bank. It's win-win. I succeed, I walk a way with a lot of money. I fail I go to jail where I get excellent health benefits, 3 meals a day and bed to sleep on.

But, this is not a legal thing they are doing, in the respect that it probably wouldn't stand up in a court of law. IP's are no personal identifiers. They would have to prove that these "guilty" parties were indeed the ones who stole the software, and it's easy enough to cover up your tracks, especially when you see them coming. If anything, this hurt their chances of gaining any actual proof that they are guilty of wrong doing.

Addendum: Also, to everyone who said they wouldn't mind paying that $1300 because it's not life shattering, well be sure you are speaking for yourselves. I scrimp and save and work hard to get what I have. I would not be ok if I were to be accused of this by CDPR and had to pay that money. The problem is, they can easily wrongly identify people who are guilty of this. I am not against it if they have a method that is 100% accurate, but they do not, despite their claims of saying they do. That is the problem with all laws as they stand. In regards to that, the funniest bit is DNA evidence. It's relatively easy to mess that up. One particular man spent four years in jail before being found innocent of murder. He had 13 witnesses placing him out of the state at the time and the lab fucked up the DNA evidence, showed that he was guilty with that, and all the other evidence proving his innocence might as well not have existed for the jury. It doesn't help that the defense is not allowed to raise questions of the validity or accuracy of DNA evidence. What a fucked up justice system.
/end tangent!

 

[Abedeus]

Uh. You can demand only 3 times the software's worth on the current market.

$120 per game is at most what they can get.

Not more.

According to the law in Germany?

You figure they've got to AT LEAST get their court costs paid by the offender in addition to that... enforcing your rights in court costs money. Otherwise they'd go bankrupt even by winning every case, and I refuse to believe that a legal system would be set up that way.

I don't know anything about German law, but I know Polish law, and since the developers are from Poland... They must be just full of shit. And I say it as a guy who pre-ordered Witcher 1, and didn't play or preorder sequel (because I haven't finished the first game yet).

No sensible judge would order someone to pay 30 times the value.

 

[Baresark]

You didn't mean that about CDPR, but you put it into your rebuttal to another post in regards to piracy and CDPR? I wasn't trying to be a dick, but you commented in such a way about a particular topic that made it seem like that is what you are saying. I did read it.

Now, that being said, I'm not looking for a flame war. I do not condone piracy, so we are in complete agreement there. But it has proven time and time again that heavy handed tactics against piracy do not work. By not work, I literally mean that it does not prevent pirates from illegally cracking and distributing games.

And with complete respect, you are making the argument that pirated copies are lost sales. That is a simply not able to be proven.

1) Anti-Virus software doesn't prevent Hackers from just creating a Virus that it can't detect, Medicine doesn't prevent Viruses/Bacteria from just evolving/mutating into something capable of shrugging it off yet everyone seems content to let them push their metaphorical boulder up the hill.

2) It doesn't matter whether they would've bought the game or not, they did not buy the game, they should not have it. Or else the legit buyers are just going to ask "Why should I pay for this when they get it for free?"

I actually mess up the quoting on the message you quoted, how embarrassing. I look like I am having a fight with myself. I fixed it in both instances.

Your point 1 isn't in context of what is being said here. I figure you are making an argument for DRM, which is fine. I am more than happy to rebut things such as that. I had a room mate one time who hated gay people. He thought it was sick and disgusting and unnatural. I would point out that there are instances of it happening in the animal kingdom, outside Homo Sapien Sapiens (He sure did love science). To which he would respond, some animals eat their young, so should we do that as well? Of course we should not I would say, but that is a red herring and doesn't prove your one attempted factual statement, that it's unnatural.

Your point 2 is quite correct. But they cannot prove what they are saying is true, that these instances are definitively responsible for pirating their game. But, they would need to have a legal investigation started, seize the property of the guilty and prove they indeed had pirated copies of their software in their possession at some point.

The discussion was very much about money. They are charging a fee to these people for having pirated copies of the game, something they cannot prove at this point. You can't just declare a money reward you want to declare. If they can prove that they had pirated copies of the game, they are due the cost of the game and whatever legal consequences for this is outside the scope of what CDPR has anything to do with.

Addendum: I hate getting caught in this corner. I am not defending piracy but I even sound like I am to myself sometimes. I am always defending due process though, and the validity of charges and allegations. In America, we are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty (I know this isn't happening in America, but part of me thinks that is the best thing for any society). CDPR, who I fully support in the majority of things they do, are claiming to know to a 100% certain degree that these people are guilty of stealing from them. They cannot know, and if they did, they would have to show people how they know this, and not cite some secret agency.

 

[Baresark]

Uh. You can demand only 3 times the software's worth on the current market.

$120 per game is at most what they can get.

Not more.

According to the law in Germany?

You figure they've got to AT LEAST get their court costs paid by the offender in addition to that... enforcing your rights in court costs money. Otherwise they'd go bankrupt even by winning every case, and I refuse to believe that a legal system would be set up that way.

There is no case. They have just sent out letters to these people. No legal actions have been taken. There is not court costs. And it is no doubt that the legal department is responsible for this, but these allegedly guilty parties are not responsible for CDPR lawyers.

 

[Belated]

Not to mention, you're only entitled to your "damages". Even though piracy doesn't actually cause damages, I could conceded to allowing developers to collect the cost of the game from those who are caught, which amounts to about $50 or $60, not a ridiculously bloated $1,300. The legal system is supposed to make you "whole" when you lose money, not make you better off than you were. To ask for three digits, let alone four digits, for a single game, is just terrible. It's bullying, and it's wrong.

But there can be additional punitive fines imposed on the convicted that compensate the state for the time wasted dealing with the pirates. It doesn't have to go to CDPK as long as it goes away from the pirates' livelihood.

Yeah? And those punitive fines are too damn high! The state wouldn't have to deal with this crap anyway if they just took a note from Switzerland. A lot of pirates are lower middle to middle class. In which case, it's a lot more important that that money stay WITH those people than be taken away from them.

 

[adamtm]

CD Project, y u now copyright troll?!!!

Seriously, get a grip guys, theres only so much good will i can grant you before i have to boycott your games....

 

[Aureliano]

Simple fact: pirates also buy games. Pirates very likely buy games in the same proportion to the amount of money they make as other gamers, if not in greater proportion. They simply have a wider range of games to choose from and might be more selective as to which studios or series get their money.

I'm absolutely NOT saying that piracy is justified, but I AM saying that I think game companies are already getting as much money out of pirates as they are going to. And pushing pirates personally out of buying video games by suing them or making it so they cannot even try games they cannot afford which are in genres they might not otherwise purchase games from without that experience, again those people who actually do legitimately purchase some titles, shrinks the available sources of money for the games industry.

I know it's hard, but the same thinking that applies to making an MMO free-to-play to overall make more money than the subscription model needs to be applied to the idea of piracy. Also, the concept of the demo. Either spend the money on making PC demos available again, or realize that some pirates, upon liking a game they pirate, actually BUY that game.

 

[Dastardly]

Furthermore, they are not sueing the people in a court of law (which I guess would be fine but would apparently cost them too much money), but actually personally sending them intimidating letters with the threat of the police and technological mumbo-jumbo at the cost of actually sending the letter to shakedown people even if they are not guilty and it wouldn't be the first time that has happened because people were scared by said letters and implied consequences.

Of course they're sending a letter first. You do realize that $1300 is still way cheaper than having to actually go to court, right? They're not just doing themselves a favor, but they're offering the offenders a chance to settle before it becomes a super-expensive and time-consuming legal battle.

It's called "settling the matter privately." If your neighbor lets his dog shit on your front step, are you going to go to the police first, or are you going to let your neighbor know not to do that or you call the police in the future?

Historically, courts have awarded waaaay more than a thousand bucks. And odds are, CDP would settle with each offender for a lesser amount if that offender made a good-faith attempt to resolve the situation.

But if they opened with a polite little note regarding how they'd be awfully nice if they'd just buy a copy? It would be ignored. What you're asking them to do is ridiculous, it's unreasonable, and it's inconsistent.

Do you want them to try to settle it privately first, thus saving both sides a long, expensive ordeal? Or do you want them to slam the hammer down even harder, going straight to the authorities?

You probably just aren't grasping the issue fully...

To: Kettle
From: Pot
Re: Black (You Are)

 

[fix-the-spade]

I wouldn't send them threats, I'd send them rootkits and malware so I could drain their bank accounts remotely. What are they going to do, sue the company because their stolen software damaged their system?

I'd love to see that in court.

Either that or the legal threats would be coated in Anthrax (the band, not the posion, I'll let you imagine the implications of that statement...).

 

[dyre]

Not really sure how they'd be "100% sure" about that sort of thing, but if they are, demanding compensation isn't such a bad idea. At the very least, it'll scare some of the pirates enough to make them think twice the next time they pirate games. Most pirates are probably just teenagers who can be easily frightened by legal threats.

 

[MrTub]

I wouldn't send them threats, I'd send them rootkits and malware so I could drain their bank accounts remotely. What are they going to do, sue the company because their stolen software damaged their system?

I'd love to see that in court.

Either that or the legal threats would be coated in Anthrax (the band, not the posion, I'll let you imagine the implications of that statement...).

Except that is completely illegal. Two wrong doesnt make a right.

 

[Fleischer]

Oh yeah, the mark on your criminal record

There is no indication that any criminal charges have been filed. These sets of cases, if the Polish or EU court in which the case is held, would be a civil case, if the laws are similar to what the US has.

 

[Fleischer]

Uh. You can demand only 3 times the software's worth on the current market.

$120 per game is at most what they can get.

Not more.

According to the law in Germany?

You figure they've got to AT LEAST get their court costs paid by the offender in addition to that... enforcing your rights in court costs money. Otherwise they'd go bankrupt even by winning every case, and I refuse to believe that a legal system would be set up that way.

There is no case. They have just sent out letters to these people. No legal actions have been taken. There is not court costs. And it is no doubt that the legal department is responsible for this, but these allegedly guilty parties are not responsible for CDPR lawyers.

Lawyers would've written these notes sent out to the suspected pirates. CD Projekt has spent money obtaining information upon the suspected pirates. CD Projekt will want that money back.

To answer Guardian's question, CD Projekt can sue the suspected pirates, and if they win their case, can have the judge force the then found pirates to pay the legal fees of CD Projekt as part of restitution.

 

[Fleischer]

CDPR, who I fully support in the majority of things they do, are claiming to know to a 100% certain degree that these people are guilty of stealing from them. They cannot know, and if they did, they would have to show people how they know this, and not cite some secret agency.

Crazy idea: CD Projekt may have embedded some sort of tracker or reporting file into the Witcher 2.

 

[shaboinkin]

Here's my question:

If none of your pirated the game, why would you care?

 

[tthor]

Uh. You can demand only 3 times the software's worth on the current market.

$120 per game is at most what they can get.

Not more.

that seems a bit more reasonable. If they were demanding that from pirates, i would wholeheartedly support

 

[skywolfblue]

I totally support this, so long as it remains reasonable and not RIAA style where they charge you billions for a single song/game.

Pirates are the ones hurting the industry, pirates are the bad guy. By going after the bad guy and punishing them without using stuff like DRM which ends up hurting legit customers as well is a Win-Win in my book.