Witcher 2 Dev Defends Asking €1000 From Pirates

[Mycroft Holmes]

CDPR, who I fully support in the majority of things they do, are claiming to know to a 100% certain degree that these people are guilty of stealing from them. They cannot know, and if they did, they would have to show people how they know this, and not cite some secret agency.

Crazy idea: CD Projekt may have embedded some sort of tracker or reporting file into the Witcher 2.

Basically every game company does this. That's where all the ballparking statistics on how many games are stolen come from. Usually they don't do anything about it because of legal concerns with tracking down people through software installed on their computers. Which is I assume is why Germany is being targeted and not a country like the US, likely their privacy/piracy laws differ from other countries.

It sounds like a pathetic solution and it is but if you can't beat the pirates, why are you wasting money, time and the good will of honest customers? Honest customers look down on heavy handed tactics like this.

I don't know what else to say on this matter.

You're insane. Anyone who bears them good will is going to buy their game. Its not even expensive, I bought it for like 30 bux on steam a few months ago. And as an "honest customer," I think their demands are justified. They would probably have better luck if they simply demanded the retail 60$ price of the game, but what they are doing is by no means heavy handed.

Here's my question:

If none of your pirated the game, why would you care?

Because sometimes people care about things that don't directly affect them.

I care.

It directly affects anyone who plays video games, because the net sum of information about DLC and piracy, is what businesses look at when they are deciding how to release new games.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

DRM in no way stops piracy, it might slow down the pirats by a few hours but its still going to screw over any one who legit bought the game while the pirates get an all round better exspereance

And yeah ^ this. Any software you have ripped and installed on your computer can be modified to work no matter what DRM is in place. Even the most tyrannical DRM(ala Ubisoft) that requires you to be in constant communication with their server is a joke. Within a few days hackers simply made a dummy server you could run off your own computer even with your internet disconnected. Meaning anyone who stole it had no restrictions, and those that bought it legitimately were subjected to being kicked out of the game any time their internet had a hiccup or Ubisoft's servers had problems. Yes that's right, they basically incentiveized stealing their product.

 

[cerealnmuffin]

Sad to see how some pirates claim they pirate games, because they consider them not worth the money. The witcher 2 was an awesome and very long game. It is a shame that pirates are hurting company that delivers a deep experience that far exceeds the typical 4-6 hours gamers have come to expect in this current generation of titles.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

They are squandering the good will they have gained for themselves.

How, pray tell?

I see NOTHING wrong with that. CD Projekt have bent to the will of gamers, offering the game with no DRM for a cheaper price than other AAA games, and the gamers respond by pirating the shit out of it. I don't give a rip if "But some pirates are repeat-downloading"! THERE'S STILL EASILY TWO MILLION SEPARATE ILLEGAL COPIES OUT THERE.

TWO.

MILLION.

AT LEAST.

If anything, I've lost any and all sympathy that pirates had desperately tried to garner from me. They are NOT crusaders out defending the consumer, they're just incredibly greedy over-entitled freeloaders that I'm ashamed to share a species with. I hope and pray that CD Projekt win every. Single. Case. That they've sent out.

This move is similar to what the record companies did, it bring them down a notch or two. What's the point of taking off the DRM if you are just going to turn around and ask for 20 times the price of the game from pirates? The only thing that keeps them above the nastiness of the record companies is that they aren't actually suing, yet.

The reason I didn't support the record companies is because they were asking for millions/billions of dollars. $1300 is not life-ruining, it's a really hard wrist-slap.

This is why I like the move. Record companies are trying to ruin someone's life out of spite, CD Projekt is just imposing a hefty fine for stealing that should be a wake up call.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Except that is completely illegal. Two wrong doesnt make a right.

And?

You'd never be able to prove it, especially not in a court of law. Plus in this case the second wrong is profitable (and completely deserved, honour among thieves and so on), you can get away with most things as long as someone makes money out of it.

 

[Staskala]

This is why I like the move. Record companies are trying to ruin someone's life out of spite, CD Projekt is just imposing a hefty fine for stealing that should be a wake up call.

You can't compare what American record companies do in America to what a Polish company does in Germany.
Over here, the maximum reimbursable sum for first time convictors of minor copyright violation is merely 100?, which would leave 900? for the lawyer writing a letter, far above any reasonable expectation. CD Projekt demands a sum that's above anything that is legally possible.
As such it is apparent that they're just jumping on the C&D train, cranking out the letters hoping (sadly rightfully so) that no one would actually go to court.

Of course, if you don't live in Germany you probably don't know about the Abmahnwelle/C&D wave, its implications, its abuse, how there are entire companies and lawyers who do nothing but tread the internet for even the most minor copyright violation to send a C&D letter and how it goes far beyond "pirates getting just punishment". It's more of a form of extortion, taking advantage of confused individuals, who may or may not even be guilty. Indeed, you don't have to prove anything to send a C&D letter, only if the receiver rejects it goes the case to court. And considering what lawyers cost, how many people do you think go to court over pirating a song or game?
In almost all cases the sum demanded is deemed too high by a court, but since you also have to pay the lawyers you're still much worse off if you try to get justice. That's the issue here, whether or not the pirates deserve it is secondary to this asinine C&D-industry (that's what it has become), how it can basically do whatever the fuck they want and how it by now affects the entire internet in Germany. Seeing CD Projekt go along with that particular practice is more than saddening.
By American standards CD Projekt might seem mild, but by German and especially other-European (where you can't demand anything for C&D letters) standards they've jumped the shark with this.

 

[Frostbite3789]

This move is similar to what the record companies did, it bring them down a notch or two. What's the point of taking off the DRM if you are just going to turn around and ask for 20 times the price of the game from pirates? The only thing that keeps them above the nastiness of the record companies is that they aren't actually suing, yet.

What's the point of trying to build up good will by not having DRM if people are just going to pirate the shit out of your game anyways. They're still a business. You're aware of this, right?

They work for profit.

 

[MrTub]

Except that is completely illegal. Two wrong doesnt make a right.

And?

You'd never be able to prove it, especially not in a court of law. Plus in this case the second wrong is profitable (and completely deserved, honour among thieves and so on), you can get away with most things as long as someone makes money out of it.

Yeah its very hard to prove that a company made a malware installed on a computer and suddenly they got shitload of cash from the owners computer.. Yeah there are no proof at all. And how do you suggest that Witcher 2 devs plant the malware on the computer?

 

[minus_273c]

They are squandering the good will they have gained for themselves.

Err, how does this make sense? They are not going to squandering the goodwill of those who bought it, and I suspect they really don't care if they squander the 'goodwill' of those who pirated it. And exactly what goodwill would those who pirated it have - "Oh, they're good guys, they made it easy for me to pirate"?

 

[SmilingWorlock]

It does not matter if they had DRM or not. Pirating is illegal and that's it. How is this case any different from any other company going against pirates - except CD Projekt went exclusivly againt pirates and not paying customers by enforcing shitty DRM.

 

[Aeshi]

I actually mess up the quoting on the message you quoted, how embarrassing. I look like I am having a fight with myself. I fixed it in both instances.

Your point 1 isn't in context of what is being said here. I figure you are making an argument for DRM, which is fine. I am more than happy to rebut things such as that. I had a room mate one time who hated gay people. He thought it was sick and disgusting and unnatural. I would point out that there are instances of it happening in the animal kingdom, outside Homo Sapien Sapiens (He sure did love science). To which he would respond, some animals eat their young, so should we do that as well? Of course we should not I would say, but that is a red herring and doesn't prove your one attempted factual statement, that it's unnatural.

Your point 2 is quite correct. But they cannot prove what they are saying is true, that these instances are definitively responsible for pirating their game. But, they would need to have a legal investigation started, seize the property of the guilty and prove they indeed had pirated copies of their software in their possession at some point.

The discussion was very much about money. They are charging a fee to these people for having pirated copies of the game, something they cannot prove at this point. You can't just declare a money reward you want to declare. If they can prove that they had pirated copies of the game, they are due the cost of the game and whatever legal consequences for this is outside the scope of what CDPR has anything to do with.

Addendum: I hate getting caught in this corner. I am not defending piracy but I even sound like I am to myself sometimes. I am always defending due process though, and the validity of charges and allegations. In America, we are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty (I know this isn't happening in America, but part of me thinks that is the best thing for any society). CDPR, who I fully support in the majority of things they do, are claiming to know to a 100% certain degree that these people are guilty of stealing from them. They cannot know, and if they did, they would have to show people how they know this, and not cite some secret agency.

My point was that the people who whine that fighting Piracy "is pointless because they'll just find a way round." are suddenly a lot more fond of said fights when it's one that effects them, a bit of hypocrisy you have just demonstrated quite nicely by going "oh but THEIR unwinnable fight against an ever-adapting foe is completely different (because I benefit from that one) honest."

 

[Coldster]

I don't think anyone likes pirates except other pirates. Its not like they do anything good for the industry anyways. Good on CD Projekt though, since they are trying to be selfless.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Here's my question:

If none of your pirated the game, why would you care?

Because sometimes people care about things that don't directly affect them.

I care.

It directly affects anyone who plays video games, because the net sum of information about DLC and piracy, is what businesses look at when they are deciding how to release new games.[/quote]

Compared to getting a letter in the mail demanding 1300 euros, that's actually pretty damn indirect.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Yeah its very hard to prove that a company made a malware installed on a computer and suddenly they got shitload of cash from the owners computer.. Yeah there are no proof at all. And how do you suggest that Witcher 2 devs plant the malware on the computer?

Malware is very easy to get hold of and reverse engineer, planting it is very easy, you write it into a complete 'pre-gold' build which you leave sitting around for either hackers or a thief to steal, which they will, because every release of the last five years or so has been stolen and leaked before release. Planting it is a job for one person to do in an afternoon.

To get it onto the computers, millions will download and install it blithely ignoring whatever malware warnings come up, then they will act surprised when bad stuff happens.

As for legal repurcusions, either claim the stolen build was not for public consumption (which it wasn't) or that the thief who set it loose online created the malware, which would be impossible to disprove as the retail version won't have it.

Regarding the money, who says it has to go directly to CD projekt? The same way movie studios never seem to make a penny on anything, all the money needs to do is disappear to some previously unheard of holding company in Bolivia (or another small unregulated country of choice) that has no provable link to CD Projekt and isn't keen on international co-operation.


Works for plenty torrent creators now, don't see why it shouldn't be made to work in favour of the good guys for once.

Then leave it alone a few years, quietly siphon the money into whatever the next project is as funding from a private investor, give it out as a pay rise.

 

[Fleischer]

Game developers should stop whinning and complaining until they let customers that legitmately are not happy with the product return it. Until then, all I have to say to them is ''Fuck you''. I didn't like Witcher 2 but I gave it a shot because of all the hub-bub about it at the time, after pulling this kind of shit, they have lost all hope for a second chance from me.

I disagree strongly. If you buy a DVD, bring it home and open it up, then most stores won't allow you to return it. In the same way, a computer game should not be returnable due to how easy it is to copy/pirate the media once you open the packaging.

My suggestion to you: read reviews, watch playthroughs/video demos and ask for feedback from people who play the game.

If you don't want to "waste money" by the risk of buying a game you might not like, then don't play computer games. There are plenty of other hobbies available.

 

[Fleischer]

Malware is very easy to get hold of and reverse engineer, planting it is very easy, you write it into a complete 'pre-gold' build which you leave sitting around for either hackers or a thief to steal, which they will, because every release of the last five years or so has been stolen and leaked before release. Planting it is a job for one person to do in an afternoon.

To get it onto the computers, millions will download and install it blithely ignoring whatever malware warnings come up, then they will act surprised when bad stuff happens.

Your scenario smells of entrapment.

 

[DEAD34345]

They are squandering the good will they have gained for themselves.

Good will from who? The pirates? I'm sure they're all choked up about that.

Good will from pirates is exactly what game companies should be going for, actually. I've known more than a few pirates in my time, but every one of them also spent the vast majority of their spending money on video-games. I'm not making any argument regarding the morality of their piracy, but in my experience the vast majority of gamers are pirates, and yet they still buy tons of games.

I'm under the impression that "Gamers" (the paying kind) and "Pirates" are almost entirely the same demographic, so it would be in gaming companies' best interests to have good-will from them.

 

[Something Amyss]

then when they realised that they were losing literally MILLIONS of dollars,

Which they're not. I know, I know, the cool kids are all kicking logic to the curb, putting on their derp hats, and saying "but piracy is stealing!" and "1 pirated copy=1 lost sale," but if they jumped off a bridge, would you?

They may feel they would have got more money, but the likelihood is really low.

On the topic, it really looked like CD Projekt was going to take the high road. There goes that.

Also kind of tangential to the topic, I love how people keep running with the "Witcher 2 was pirated 4.5 million times" story without looking at how the estimate was arrived at, which is total nonsense.

I also love how Mike links to the Escpaist article that actually quotes Iwin saying this is not a "bad ratio," then proposes the question of "but what are you gonna do when over 80% of the people 'stole' your game?"

Ignore where the numbers came from , report number as fact, then ask what the alternative is. All the while, Iwin himself was saying it wasn't a bad ratio, but CD Projekt then starts in here. And that "not bad" ratio is used to justify it.

Seems pretty dishonest here.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Your scenario smells of entrapment.

Not really, entrapment requires some kind of encouragement to steal or provision of equipment, the theft is a statistical certainty already and the security would be identical to normal.
Except that the target's booby trapped of course.

Think of it as like banks putting paint bombs and tear gas in their security vans, if nobody commits a crime there will be no issue, but if someone does go to the effort of defeating your security the stolen items are detrimental to them regardless.

 

[Phlakes]

The only good will they've squandered is that of the pirates. Which I don't think matters very much to them.