Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[Bonecrusher]

A great topic runicknight.

Err.. no one will care about my thoughts, but I still want to tell a few things (If someone reads)

Female gamers tend to play singleplayer games. Farmville, Sims, GTA3, Dishonored, Binding Of Isaac vs... But they don't like play multiplayer and competitive games.
However they play multiplayer games, if their boyfriends or brothers want them to play.

I hate Anita's (and similar) feminist ideas. Making games more female supremacy will not help games. Women can roleplay male characters as much as Men roleplay female characters.
However it is still good to see more female main characters - Just don't force them into the game. Oni, new Tomb Raider, Beyond Good & Evil, Portal 1-2 were good games.

Not every female gamers want "calm" games. Many of the females I've met likes to play bloody action games. So we don't have to make fluffy squeshy games just to appeal them. We can still make action games. However some effort to make the player feel empathy towards the characters, can appeal more women. Some romance and dram won't hurt either.

 

[shadowuser10141]

I play on a TF2 server (which is another source game like Gmod TTT) and we have about 3 women who regularly play and talk on the mic. Nobody bats an eyelid.

So either:

A. You're playing on the wrong servers.
or
B. You have a chip on your shoulder. "Woe is me. I get hazed in game because of my voice. Feel sorry for me!"

I have been called tons of names by anonymous 13 year olds. Does that mean I'm going to moan about it on a forum or ask for kickstarter money for a documentary?
No, it's called having a thick skin. I don't care what anyone on the internet thinks of me, neither should you.

Wow, your experience isn't the same as mine so I must be doing something wrong or exaggerating?
Please.

I don't particularly want anybody to feel sorry for me, and I've not said anything about kickstarter so you're projecting pretty hard there.

My skin is hard. I just can't be arsed most times to use things like voice if someone is just going to take offence to me being a woman.
Getting shit cause you fucked something up or someone just took a disliking to you is standard, and I get that too. Dickheads who randomly decide to single you out cause you're female is another thing. I just wanna play normally, and usually remaining unknown is the best way to do that.

And yeah, there are a lot of accepting spaces, but it's certainly not rare to run into the kind of douchebag who has mommy issues.

EDIT: Also, I wasn't even talking strictly about harassment, just constantly being treated like an oddity gets really old. Imagine a majority of people being surprised because you can do something you consider an everyday activity. Imagine how quickly that gets old.

My main point is that I am tired of the myth that this issue exclusively affects women and something about me being a privileged male who doesn't have to deal with this and if only I knew what it was like...blah blah.
I'm not claiming you said this but I hear this a lot on the internet.

You can't fight trolls. Just find a server with a nice community and a decent admin who will punish people for bullying.
There are plenty of them out there. Valve games have mostly good communities.

The kickstarter comment was a reference to a campaign where someone wanted money for a documentary about 13 year olds making sandwich jokes.
Contrast that with someone like me who just ignores trolls.

I just wanna play normally, and usually remaining unknown is the best way to do that.

That's how I play 90% of the time. Generic Steam name, no personal information, keep my head down etc...
Best way to play.

If you are using the mic then you are potentially drawing yourself into an argument with other players.

Protip: Putting something like "gamer gurl" in your gamertag/clan tag is seen as attention whoring by some people and they might troll you because of it.
Not saying you do that, just giving you a heads up.

 

[Dante dynamite]

Huh the thing is that a lot of people are saying that if you make a games with a great protagonist great gameplay and is a blockbuster action title it will attract more women into what is generally considered "core" gaming. I feel its won't do that much except in the long run and I mean generation long. Now hear me out I go to a small international school approx 300 students and 50 nationalities in total its small enough that you get to know everyone to the point of an acquaintance so in my entire school there is a very small number of gamer girls that play games beyond iPhone puzzle games angry birds and the like. Even fewer who play games outside the unisex games like Mario (or at least the cheap Knock-off we have on the school computers) Pokemon, The Sims and harvest moon (I have no problem with that it doesn't make their enjoyment for games any less important than mine) while many guys are interested in gaming especially the big titles. Most girls show no interest in gaming and have no interest in playing games even if it had a great female character and for sure none of them would even touch call of duty and gta they see it all as very pointless and juvenile regardless of who the protagonist is, and its not because the guys have some sort of boys club mentality in fact many of us try to get them into gaming (except for those retarded year 8 boys who are so stupid its like they live in a perpetual state idiot 12 year old boys CoD players (seriously several of them told me they didn't like star wars was because they couldn't follow the story in any sense because it was too complex and they think things like pixar movies are gay)). Regardless of what many think stereotypes do exist and in large numbers a very large majority of girls in my school are into stereotypically girl things like dancing and fashion and guys in my school are generally into stereotypically guy things like video games and sports (though I believe that tastes should be universal and there should be no stereotypes) there is also the popularity of things like twilight among women and Porn magazines for men (sorry couldn't think of anything better).

I honestly believe that we should have something like the romantic comedies of video games types of games that appeal more to women (not those fucking barbie games or anything of the like that only entertains very young girls) i don't know what it is going to be like but i do believe that that will bring in more women into gaming.

Note: not against more good female characters and i understand that even though there are many stereotypical people out there there are also a large amount that don't fit in those stereotypes and those women (especially those in the forum with us I presume) enjoy the mainstream triple A games that most of us guys enjoy and would like more female characters in their games and I think they should I just don't believe that will help the situation greatly in the short run.

P.S when did hating female gamers become a thing i remember when there was always the thing in the gaming community that if any gaming guy met a gaming girl he would try to marry her on the spot? then this fake geek girl thing happened and it seemed to have disappeared in an instant.

 

[Phasmal]

My main point is that I am tired of the myth that this issue exclusively affects women and something about me being a privileged male who doesn't have to deal with this and if only I knew what it was like...blah blah.
I'm not claiming you said this but I hear this a lot on the internet.

Right. You obviously already have a lot of feelings about this issue.
I'm not gonna say that male gamers don't face problems.
I am gonna say, they're often different problems.
I mean, you're unlikely to get someone get all snippy cause they just `cant stand` to lose to a guy. You're unlikely to get unending sexual remarks. Or have someone say to you that you playing games ruins them and that they play games specifically to avoid men.
And here's a study to show that women's voices on average get 3 times more abuse than men's voices or no voices: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php.
Now, why I am I bringing all that up? Is it to make you feel bad?
No.
As you yourself said, who should care what others on the internet think? I don't have any interest in making you feel bad for being male. You feeling bad or not about this changes nothing for me.

You can't fight trolls. Just find a server with a nice community and a decent admin who will punish people for bullying.
There are plenty of them out there. Valve games have mostly good communities.

I think I already mentioned before. I'm pretty good at ducking the worse areas.

The kickstarter comment was a reference to a campaign where someone wanted money for a documentary about 13 year olds making sandwich jokes.
Contrast that with someone like me who just ignores trolls.

Dismissing people who try and push out female gamers as all being `13` is a little dishonest, but as I said, you clearly already have existing opinions on this which I wish you would not put onto me.

That's how I play 90% of the time. Generic Steam name, no personal information, keep my head down etc...
Best way to play.

If you are using the mic then you are potentially drawing yourself into an argument with other players.

I like using mic. It's fun. Excuse me for not thinking my actual voice is reason for argument. I don't use mic outside spaces I consider to be safe unless I'm on a private voice server with my friends.

Protip: Putting something like "gamer gurl" in your gamertag/clan tag is seen as attention whoring by some people and they might troll you because of it.
Not saying you do that, just giving you a heads up.

I have been on the internet for more than five minutes, you know.
And also, it should be noted that I have several people I game with who have `Mr/Sir/Gentlemen/Guy` etc in their username or use their real name which is undoubtedly male. I guess they are all whores, right?

I have no interest really in browbeating you about this. I just think we experience these issues differently.

 

[generals3]

Right. You obviously already have a lot of feelings about this issue.
I'm not gonna say that male gamers don't face problems.
I am gonna say, they're often different problems.
I mean, you're unlikely to get someone get all snippy cause they just `cant stand` to lose to a guy. You're unlikely to get unending sexual remarks. Or have someone say to you that you playing games ruins them and that they play games specifically to avoid men.

Well due to the male prevalence in games it's quite normal men don't get the sexual remarks or things like "i play to specifically avoid men". However the getting snippy is something everyone faces. And that's simply because lots of people can't stand losing. I can't even count the amount of times I was called a cheater, hacker, asshole, fucker and so on in RTS's because I handed my opponent's ass to him. And I would also like to note that some women are using the opposite kind of abuse. Recently on CoD there was a woman who just couldn't resist telling us how much we sucked because she, a woman, had the most kills. She was making fun of us because we, men, were "beaten" by her, a woman.

Now you're right the problems are different but at the same time they are not as much as people may like to think. There are simply a lot of idiotic trolls with anger issues on the net. They'll just hate anyone for any reason and gender just happens to be one of the reasons (but it is not limited to that).

 

[Phasmal]

Well due to the male prevalence in games it's quite normal men don't get the sexual remarks or things like "i play to specifically avoid men". However the getting snippy is something everyone faces. And that's simply because lots of people can't stand losing. I can't even count the amount of times I was called a cheater, hacker, asshole, fucker and so on in RTS's because I handed my opponent's ass to him. And I would also like to note that some women are using the opposite kind of abuse. Recently on CoD there was a woman who just couldn't resist telling us how much we sucked because she, a woman, had the most kills. She was making fun of us because we, men, were "beaten" by her, a woman.

Now you're right the problems are different but at the same time they are not as much as people may like to think. There are simply a lot of idiotic trolls with anger issues on the net. They'll just hate anyone for any reason and gender just happens to be one of the reasons (but it is not limited to that).

Yeah, I've never bragged with the `You got beaten by a girl`, because it kind of implies that.. you shouldn't be beaten by a girl, you know? Like it's something to be ashamed of.

But I was more referring to the experience of someone not wanting to lose to you specifically because you are a girl. I've known some people in my time that I've gamed with who weren't particularly good, so were kind of experienced at losing but got really defensive when it came to losing to me. It's kinda stupid.

I just think people don't really `get` the other side. I still have friends who seem to think it's a non-stop bed of roses and guys giving me things being a female gamer. Uh, no.
Pretty much all my friends are guys, and I game with mostly guys, and I see what they have to put up with, and it's just.. different.

 

[Something Amyss]

I just think people don't really `get` the other side.

only if they lack empathy or reason.

I've never bought into the notion that people can't get the other side. Maybe they don't, but usually only if they're never confronted or they're completely selfish dicks.

That latter part tends to be the case in gaming. We court a userbase of selfish, self-entitled man-children. And I'm sorry to the people who don't fit that or whatever, but yeah, that's kind of the audience in question. This is why we as a communit throw self-righteous fits if a single reviewer doesn't rate our game of choice as high as we'd like. This is why there's a fit at even the suggestion of diversity, because MINE!!!!!!!!!!

We want to be treated like a serious medium, but behave like children.

And it's not just gamers. Geek culture as a whole. Hell, this site has had numerous people state someone was mean to them, and they like to pass it on. A lot of them justifying specifically the exclusion of women, to boot.

And for the record, I do "get" where both sexes are coming from. I just think one side is often dumb and reeks of entitlement. Guys ***** about women as if they're owed companionship and sex quite frequently, especially if they think they're alone in a safe "male space." Women aren't specifically immune to that, but it's not bolstered by cultural dominance nor is it the given standard. We have entire swathes of the language dedicated to the male mentality, things like "the friend zone." Hell, there's practically a cottage industry built around that one term.

Simply put, men, specifically in this context, don't think because they don't have to. Though more broadly put, it tends to happen whenever you're in power or the majority (which generally implies power, but not always).

 

[broca]

I just think people don't really `get` the other side.

only if they lack empathy or reason.

I've never bought into the notion that people can't get the other side. Maybe they don't, but usually only if they're never confronted or they're completely selfish dicks.

That latter part tends to be the case in gaming. We court a userbase of selfish, self-entitled man-children. And I'm sorry to the people who don't fit that or whatever, but yeah, that's kind of the audience in question. This is why we as a communit throw self-righteous fits if a single reviewer doesn't rate our game of choice as high as we'd like. This is why there's a fit at even the suggestion of diversity, because MINE!!!!!!!!!!

We want to be treated like a serious medium, but behave like children.

And it's not just gamers. Geek culture as a whole. Hell, this site has had numerous people state someone was mean to them, and they like to pass it on. A lot of them justifying specifically the exclusion of women, to boot.

And for the record, I do "get" where both sexes are coming from. I just think one side is often dumb and reeks of entitlement. Guys ***** about women as if they're owed companionship and sex quite frequently, especially if they think they're alone in a safe "male space." Women aren't specifically immune to that, but it's not bolstered by cultural dominance nor is it the given standard. We have entire swathes of the language dedicated to the male mentality, things like "the friend zone." Hell, there's practically a cottage industry built around that one term.

Simply put, men, specifically in this context, don't think because they don't have to. Though more broadly put, it tends to happen whenever you're in power or the majority (which generally implies power, but not always).

Sorry, but that's just massive oversimplification plus huge overgeneralization plus some plain insulting stuff. I don't see a reason to argue with you, as that (based on you post) would lead nowhere, just wanted to voice my strong disagreement.

 

[carnex]

-snip-

There is difference between what I said and What you said. Most games have no story or character to speak off. Those are irrelevant when talking about better characters. Just like most books are crap, most movies are crap and most music is crap (even if I love a lot of that crap, it's still crap from any storytelling or artistic crap.) In that manner Call of Duty is crap. It?s very enjoyable crap; it is the pinnacle of crap refined to addiction levels. But it's crap never the less. As are most of the games.

But out of those games who try to have storyline (even CoD does, bwahahahahah) i rarely se good characters, good female characters even more sparsely. Not that I want improved.

Who gives a crap what Mario thinks. He is as flat as a piece of paper 1 molecule thick. But, on the other hand, Nameless One from Planescape Torment has more layers than onion and more sides then icosahedron.

Same as Princess Peach is most stereotypical princess ever that appeared on more than one showing, but Anne from Planescape Torment if love interest, badass, hate interest etc, but what defines her is unique and intriguing personality that is always there influencing everything she does, but you can never exactly pinpoint it.

Different type of games require different type of treatment. And it's not just to attract women, its to improve medium as a whole.

As for rest, I agree with you. As I said, until women become significant portion of the players, it is going to be geared towards men's tastes. And that is just common sense. There are plenty of genres already changed because of female audience, match 3 games is perhaps most obvious one.

@Zachary Amaranth
Don't go there. We are having a civilised discussion. It's never productive since tehre isn't a possible soulution. And, if something is proven, if you start caving in to any unreasonable demands of any group, you are in for a horrible ride. And changing whole medium so that every women could enjoy every game is as unreasonable as they come. Majority of men dont enjoy most of games geared towards men, not to mention games geared towards women. And when we do enjoy games created for female demographics, we don't demand changes, as general rule we either play them, or move on when something becomes unacceptable.

or, if you wish to go there, recognise that it's actually wery small but loud portion of gamers. And you know what more? They are free to say whatever they want, basic human right. And you are free to say whatever you wnat in return. Just don't say it's gamers. It's small, very loud subset that you can't do anything about. As soon as everyone involved understand that's how it is in the world, that world itself doesen't give a rats ass about you or me or her or anyone, the sooner we can ignore them.

Answer never was and never will be destruction/censorship of one thing, but always creation of antipod to that. Or we will end up where holywood was in fifties. Castrated version of itself. And while, out of osterity came new ideas, it actually ruined a hole lot of creativity too, ruining even more when backlash to it came in sixties and seventies.

 

[mecegirl]

What is with the mentality that until women are a large part of the fanbase that they shouldn't be catered to? Especially when the most glaringly obvious solution to the problem (diversity of game type and of protagonists) would not only draw more women, but more men. It would also make the medium more enjoyable for current gamers. There were women, plenty of women in my generation and before who were gamers. But as the medium "matured" those women saw less and less reason to stay in the fanbase. And as new games come out, games that are not always as "gender neutral" as the games that came out when I was younger, games that are not as diverse as the games that came out when I was younger, it gives women younger than me less incentive to enter the fanbase. So the industry not only has to gain new players but rekindle the interest of older ones who saw some of their favorite genres disappear.

Women have little reason to enter a fanbase when there is nothing to draw them in...It's just a self fulfilling prophesy that way. A lame excuse to continue to cater to a single fanbase (one that doesn't even include all men). And that would be fine if it was a single series. Say if women were just not interested in COD or something. But an entire medium? Or even a genre? I'm sitting here seeing the same thing start to happen to video games that has happened to superhero comic books. If the industry keeps on this way it will become so stuck on itself that it will stop appealing to younger men...to little boys, and what do we say then?

 

[generals3]

What is with the mentality that until women are a large part of the fanbase that they shouldn't be catered to?

It's called: business? It's not as much as they shouldn't be catered to but rather "it's normal they aren't catered to (as much)".

And the idea that women have nothing to draw them in is preposterous. There is a brickton of more neutral or women oriented games. It's not all about women in skimpy clothes and burly men. If you think it is you're suffering from tunnel vision.

And the whole self fulfilling prophecy argument is based on ignorance of the data out there. There are studies which show men and women have different tastes in genres (in general) as such certain genres focusing heavily on men is rooted on real preferences. Until women like violence and competitiveness in VG's as much as men these genres will focus on men.

 

[carnex]

I don't know about fanbase of gamers. I don't even know what gaming fanbase is. I know what fanbase oa a single game might be but even that is term looser then sumo wrestler?s belly.

Anyway, I haven't read that anyone wrote what female gamers should be majority in genre before genre shows modification towards them. I, personally, said significant percentage remaining vague since I can?t really say what basis publisher will take. It's just common sense.

I think you are mistaking that there are less girls who play games. I think there are more females than ever. It's just that they actually got games geared to them. Most of them used to play gender neutral games (like early Mario games for example) and some of what is seen as classic male demographics games (fighters, shooters etc). But now female gamers have other games to play. Most females who play games I know wouldn't touch Bayonetta or Great Giana Sisters; Twisted Dream. They prefer driving games, light logic puzzlers, hidden object games, match 3 games etc. My fiancée thinks video games are total waste of time but I hooked her up on Gran Turismo 5 with Logitech Steering Wheel. Now, if you are among minority of female gamers that does like shooters, fighters and similar games, well like most minorities, you have to pick up what you can get. It's not pretty, but big budget games are business and in recent years it went sour for most of them.

Remember how EA had this great creativity spike at the beginning of this generation? Remember how they said that they will cater to every gamer out there with better stories, more diverse and experimental gameplay? Remember Skate, Mirrors Edge, Boom Blox, Spore and other games that were shaking things up? And do you remember how they lost a lot of money when ultra conservative Activision was filling stadiums with 100 dollar bills? After you get lesson like that, it's hard to experiment again.

That said, lower budget games can and do experiment a lot more. And to tell you the truth, I prefer their outings and I am male. But you can't expect big business to keep pushing out experiments and keep losing money. Yes everyone is "pissed off" at EA and Activision. But why would they care when they sell more games than ever before? Big publishers pay attention when their bank accounts tell them to. Unless you can persuade them that creating certain type of content will be beneficial to them, you won't affect them. And I don't wanna preach how that is right thing to be, but I do wanna say, it is what it is. Simple truth.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Kind of jumping in before reading the whole thread (Which I will do) but I wanted to bring up things before I forget them.

One thing I thought of is that I think getting more women into video-games (Making or playing them) is also a question of time. What I mean is that, video-games were mostly aimed at boys in the 80s and 90s, fast forward and a lot of those boys are now men and I assume a lot of them have girlfriends or wives and children now. That kind of change leads to them trying to include these people close to them in their hobby. Spouses will try to encourage each other to try things they like, and this is especially true with children as I know I at least would love to share my love of video-games to my children, when I have some, regardless of their gender. But this kind of thing also requires time for the next generation to even come into existence before it can make change.

I also liked that idea for recommending indie games that have female protagonists or indie games that might appeal to women more at least. Should we all try to share games that follow this? I'll list examples from my own collection of free indie games.

Ib
Mad Father
The Witch's House
Misao
The White Chamber
Knytt Stories
Yume Nikki

Those are the games I have that have female protagonists and don't require a lot of skill in gameplay to be able to play and enjoy. On the side of ones that do though I have...

Bunny Must Die
Iji
Rosenkreuzstilette

And I guess in terms of VN's I only have one real example and it's a kinetic novel.

Juniper's Knot.

Keep in mind that I'm just listing indie games that can be acquired for free.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Please show me where i stated that women in general aren't core gamers or where i made any comment about this assumption (which i didn't make in the first place) excusing exclusion of or hostility towards females.

Just because 45% of all people who play any kind of games on any device for any length of time a week are female doesn't mean that 45% of core gamers a female.

Happy?

Yes, what a horrible world would we live in if females just played the games they are interested in. We should not rest until exactly the same number of females and males play every single core game and if we have to force females to play them (/sarcasm). As i said before, excluding females who want to play core games is bad, but if a female doesn't want to play core games, that's equally ok. How about we try to include the ones who want to play core games and just leave the rest alone?

If I asked you define "core" in this context (i.e. what is a "core game"), I'd put dollars to donuts you'll give a definition roughly analogous to triple-A titles: games by the major developers and publishers, with the biggest budgets, "best" developers, most market exposure, and largest communities and fan bases. To which I'd say, these games are largely developed, produced, and marketed for males. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, there's obviously a market for it, but there has been a clear trend over the last decade or so of triple-A titles as a whole becoming increasingly masculinized -- masculine themes and symbolism dominate, and games have become increasingly explicitly violent and sexualized (that's not to say women can't appreciate violence and gore, or sexualization, but that males as a gender tend to be more accepting of violent and sexually-explicit themes and imagery) -- and thereby exclusive of gamers who would purchase triple-A titles but are disinterested in the narratives, themes, and imagery they espouse (i.e. women).

You're confusing cause and effect. You're claiming females aren't "core" gamers because they don't want to play "core" games. Well, no shit Sherlock -- they're not being tapped as a demographic by triple-A companies in the first place! Has it occurred to you that maybe -- just maybe -- if triple-A companies tapped that demographic, more women would become "core" gamers?

In fact, even the language you're using is exclusionary. To say that there is a "core" of gaming implies that anything outside that is somehow on the periphery, an outgroup, and therefore safely excluded as a demographic.

I think the thing he was trying to get at is that if 45% of female gamers are playing casual games on their phones that don't need as much time devoted to them as the games on the consoles, and a lot of these games don't even follow a main character of any gender anyway, then how is adding more women characters to the console scene going to change that?

What I'm trying to say is, just because you make a character in a game appeal to a certain group, it doesn't mean people from that group are going to play it if that genre isn't something they're interested in to begin with. I'm not someone that's interested in military shooters so even if, say, Call of Duty (Just as an easily recognized example) had an aspie (Which I am) character in it, I still wouldn't be interested in the game because I'm not into military shooters.

I'm not advocating us to not add more and better female characters to games but we also need to be careful that we don't make the same kind of assumptions like "If we change the color to pink then it will appeal to women".

Once again, I'm still reading the whole thread so if this was brought up already then my apologies.

 

[mecegirl]

What is with the mentality that until women are a large part of the fanbase that they shouldn't be catered to?

It's called: business? It's not as much as they shouldn't be catered to but rather "it's normal they aren't catered to (as much)".

And the idea that women have nothing to draw them in is preposterous. There is a brickton of more neutral or women oriented games. It's not all about women in skimpy clothes and burly men. If you think it is you're suffering from tunnel vision.

And the whole self fulfilling prophecy argument is based on ignorance of the data out there. There are studies which show men and women have different tastes in genres (in general) as such certain genres focusing heavily on men is rooted on real preferences. Until women like violence and competitiveness in VG's as much as men these genres will focus on men.

They prefer to call it business but it is not sustainable. Once again, look at what happened to superhero comics. The average reader is male and in their thirties and up. The cartoons and movies make more money than the source material...but oddly enough the cartoons and movies have altered things to make the material work for an extended audience. They can't even get new adult male readers, because unlike the adult readers they currently have, they haven't been reading since they were children. Their numbers only go up when lapsed readers decide to come back and that's a temporary thing. Oh they had their boom, and then they crashed. The comics creators were/are so busy catering to "adult heterosexual males" that they lost a bunch of male readers who like variety, female readers, and worse they didn't nurture younger readers. So now their core fan base are a bunch of older dudes that can't even get their own kids interested in the characters they love(and sometimes don't want to because none of the "good" books are kid friendly). All that despite the misconception that "comics are for kids". That's what happens when an industry focuses all its attention on one demographic, and that's what this industry has to look forward to unless it changes course. We've seen the types of games that "Don't sell well" also not have proper advertizing. Can it get more chicken and egg than that? How can I believe that it all boils down to "business" when the business keeps shooting itself in the foot?


I'm suffering from reality. I said nothing about skimpy clothes in my post so I don't know why you are bringing it up. I have an opinion on skimpy clothing and I'm more than able to bring it up when I feel that it is relevant. The marketing sure as hell isn't gender neutral. The majority of the games featuring heterosexual male protagonists isn't gender neutral either. Unless you have some obscure understanding of what the term gender neutral means. And none of that addresses the problem with diversity of game type. You say that men like certain genres and women like others...Awesome! Except that video games are not a genre but a medium (and even genres have sub genres that lend to diversity). Racing games used to be a big thing and now not so much. Fighting games used to be a big thing and now not so much. "Mascot" platformers, the Mario's, Sonic's, Rachet and Clanks; games that were good at bringing new blood, i.e. children, into the hobby have slagged off (except Mario and the occasional Sonic game that's "never as good as the 2d version") on home bound consoles. Survival horror game franchises are getting more and more action based. As an aside there are a LOT of female Horror fans. I know Romance is stereotypically no.1 when it comes to genres women like, but for whatever reason women really like horror and the paranormal as well. And good on those who decided to grab the puzzle game genre and make bank off of it.

 

[runic knight]

I just think people don't really `get` the other side.

only if they lack empathy or reason.

I've never bought into the notion that people can't get the other side. Maybe they don't, but usually only if they're never confronted or they're completely selfish dicks.

That latter part tends to be the case in gaming. We court a userbase of selfish, self-entitled man-children. And I'm sorry to the people who don't fit that or whatever, but yeah, that's kind of the audience in question. This is why we as a communit throw self-righteous fits if a single reviewer doesn't rate our game of choice as high as we'd like. This is why there's a fit at even the suggestion of diversity, because MINE!!!!!!!!!!

We want to be treated like a serious medium, but behave like children.

And it's not just gamers. Geek culture as a whole. Hell, this site has had numerous people state someone was mean to them, and they like to pass it on. A lot of them justifying specifically the exclusion of women, to boot.

And for the record, I do "get" where both sexes are coming from. I just think one side is often dumb and reeks of entitlement. Guys ***** about women as if they're owed companionship and sex quite frequently, especially if they think they're alone in a safe "male space." Women aren't specifically immune to that, but it's not bolstered by cultural dominance nor is it the given standard. We have entire swathes of the language dedicated to the male mentality, things like "the friend zone." Hell, there's practically a cottage industry built around that one term.

Simply put, men, specifically in this context, don't think because they don't have to. Though more broadly put, it tends to happen whenever you're in power or the majority (which generally implies power, but not always).

Ok, I took the time to write up that huge intro post and to try to answer most people I can in the thread. Please, please avoid blatant stereotypical bullshit just because you have had issues.

I get it, you are frustrated and put up with a lot of bullshit by stupid people. Trust me, I can relate. But when you reduce what was suppose to be a deeper look and understanding into the whole situation to essentially one side being wrong, then you reveal a bias that has no place in the discussion at all. And you do what the hell I said not to in the first post in attacking and blaming a group when that makes people dig in and fight you solely because of defensive habits. No, I don't care your damn reasons in doing so, you don't get to reduce this to such simple bullshit as "one side is entitled whiny boysclub blablahblah". That shit does nothing to solve anything and actively derails the conversation and defeats the whole damn point of the thread. I made this because I care about gaming itself and believe that the community has it within them to start fixing this, not because I wanted to listen to people air their grievances and blame the other side for shit. And while you are not the first to try to do so, my patience in trying to explain that is running out so you get hit first and the next ones start to be blocked entirely. I believe a block prevents them from posting in threads you make anyways...


Yes, there are certainly terrible, sad people in the gaming community and yes as a mass, we are not seen as the most accepting or understanding. I went over that in the first damn post and here and there throughout the thread. But for crying out loud, I spent forever trying to explain the reasons why that shit is the way it is and is perceived in the first place, and how it can be affected (both positively and negatively), I wont let someone with a chip on their shoulder dismiss it all just because it doesn't fit their persecuted world view or their complaints about friend zoning and the like. I've been calling out people for bullshit about "they need to toughen up", "Grow the fuck up" and "it is only supply and demand", and that shit at least has something relevant or that works towards a solution behind it in games (even if said solution is a stupid one). This started alright but then became a directionless ramble of complaints about cultural issues in general, and as I said before, as gamers we have a pretty damn limited way of affecting the entirety of cultural mentalities.

The problem here is you aren't trying to present this as a case of understanding of why, rather just worthless complaining about the situation. You could go into geek culture's relation to gaming and how they influence each other. You could touch on why there is a growing sense of entitlement in culture itself and how that applies. You could make a case about how anonymity itself affects how people let themselves act and react to changes in a way they never would have before in the name of their fandom. Instead you made a post that paints you as some angry feminist caricature who's only addition to the conversation is sweeping generalizations and perpetuation of petty arguments when the whole damn point of the thread was to stay as far the fuck away from that shit as possible because how worthless it is.

This thread is about understanding, as wholly as we can, the why of the problems and what we can do as members of the gaming community to fix it. Your personal complaints about culture as a whole are noted but wasted here.

 

[runic knight]

What is with the mentality that until women are a large part of the fanbase that they shouldn't be catered to?

It's called: business? It's not as much as they shouldn't be catered to but rather "it's normal they aren't catered to (as much)".

And the idea that women have nothing to draw them in is preposterous. There is a brickton of more neutral or women oriented games. It's not all about women in skimpy clothes and burly men. If you think it is you're suffering from tunnel vision.

And the whole self fulfilling prophecy argument is based on ignorance of the data out there. There are studies which show men and women have different tastes in genres (in general) as such certain genres focusing heavily on men is rooted on real preferences. Until women like violence and competitiveness in VG's as much as men these genres will focus on men.

They prefer to call it business but it is not sustainable. Once again, look at what happened to superhero comics. The average reader is male and in their thirties and up. The cartoons and movies make more money than the source material...but oddly enough the cartoons and movies have altered things to make the material work for an extended audience. They can't even get new adult male readers, because unlike the adult readers they currently have, they haven't been reading since they were children. Their numbers only go up when lapsed readers decide to come back and that's a temporary thing. Oh they had their boom, and then they crashed. The comics creators were/are so busy catering to "adult heterosexual males" that they lost a bunch of male readers who like variety, female readers, and worse they didn't nurture younger readers. So now their core fan base are a bunch of older dudes that can't even get their own kids interested in the characters they love(and sometimes don't want to because none of the "good" books are kid friendly). All that despite the misconception that "comics are for kids". That's what happens when an industry focuses all its attention on one demographic, and that's what this industry has to look forward to unless it changes course. We've seen the types of games that "Don't sell well" also not have proper advertizing. Can it get more chicken and egg than that? How can I believe that it all boils down to "business" when the business keeps shooting itself in the foot?

Good references there. You can really see the parallels in how the games are marketed now compared to before and how the comic industry of the 90's did it before the crash. Furthermore the greedy behaviors and push of collectors items that were worthless, as well as the rapid decline of new readers is what really drove the bubble burst of the 90's, as the items people were going after in the name of collector's items hoping for the next "1st appearance of superman" lead to a deluge of comic creators cashing in with countless events and first appearances and new heros, most of which were rip offs and the same broody, violent "adult" hero, chasing the ideas of Watchmen and the new version of Batman that started the trend. They copied the traits of dark and edgy in hopes that was what attracted new readers, ignoring the good story telling and likeable but still flawed characters. In games, I can only look at the trend of chasing WoW and CoD, overpriced Collector's editions and excessive, broody, violent "adult" games as a lesson not learned from history. There are also strong parallels when it comes to terrible characterizations in general and female participation and portrayals too. The idea of skimpy women in attempts to seem more adult and mature as well as sexualization appeal while gutting characters into soulless and often unlikeably done archtypes

Tying back into women here, it is actually any non-18-35 male demographic that is not being targeted as much, though that is harder to see when you have younger males playing the games anyways. The 12 year old x-box live idea. Thus it allows the system to limp on further when it should have imploded already. Other aspects, such as nintendo's lack of giving a shit about chasing the golden chalice demographic, further helps the industry limp along by introducing new players to the system. Back in the 90's, there was far fewer options for new readers, which helped fuel the burst when they started to drop out in droves.

I'm suffering from reality. I said nothing about skimpy clothes in my post so I don't know why you are bringing it up. I have an opinion on skimpy clothing and I'm more than able to bring it up when I feel that it is relevant. The marketing sure as hell isn't gender neutral. The majority of the games featuring heterosexual male protagonists isn't gender neutral either. Unless you have some obscure understanding of what the term gender neutral means. And none of that addresses the problem with diversity of game type. You say that men like certain genres and women like others...Awesome! Except that video games are not a genre but a medium (and even genres have sub genres that lend to diversity). Racing games used to be a big thing and now not so much. Fighting games used to be a big thing and now not so much. "Mascot" platformers, the Mario's, Sonic's, Rachet and Clanks; games that were good at bringing new blood, i.e. children, into the hobby have slagged off (except Mario and the occasional Sonic game that's "never as good as the 2d version") on home bound consoles. Survival horror game franchises are getting more and more action based. As an aside there are a LOT of female Horror fans. I know Romance is stereotypically no.1 when it comes to genres women like, but for whatever reason women really like horror and the paranormal as well. And good on those who decided to grab the puzzle game genre and make bank off of it.

Good points made.

 

[carnex]

Yes, you are right about comics industry. And that industry is not unique. Whole economy is traped for two centuries in Boom-Bust cycle.

You seem to have a great grasp on problem? But what is solution.

One gaming genre that is almost totaly genre neutral is 1on1 fighting games. Almost every game has good mix of male and female characters drawn both as sexually provocative and totaly neutral and story is irrelevant. There is something for everyone. And while there is toxic element in form of some members of community, but you have that element in any competitive eviroment (and besideindividual baning I don't see any other way of adressing that). Yet there is really small percentage of females playing those games.

I understand that medium is gender neutral, yet the genres often are not.

I wonder what's the gender breakup of sales of recent great gender neutral paltformers like Dust: The Elysian Tail or Great Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams.

 

[broca]

I disagree with the assumed likeness of todays AAA games industry and the superhero comic industy before the crash in the nineties. While todays AAA industry is surely not too healthy, it's also not that ill that a crash is to be expected. In america alone the core games market is absolutely huge (this article cites a study according to which 14% of all americans are core gamers http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/03/06/npd-says-core-gamers-are-numerous-and-older-than-you-think/ ), so even if we leave the international markets aside, i don't see how AAA companies will have a problem finding customers in the future - if anything the number will go up as younger generations, for which core gaming is more and more normal, get older.

The whole "problem" (from the perspective of people who want games to evolve, which probably is minority of core gamers) is that there are enough costumers who buy the same old AAA games for AAA game companies not having to change. We can talk all we want about trying to change AAA games, but as long as the yearly AAA games like CoD sale millions and millions of copies, the AAA companies just don't need to change enough to actually make them change.

 

[shadowuser10141]

Right. You obviously already have a lot of feelings about this issue.
I'm not gonna say that male gamers don't face problems.
I am gonna say, they're often different problems.
I mean, you're unlikely to get someone get all snippy cause they just `cant stand` to lose to a guy. You're unlikely to get unending sexual remarks. Or have someone say to you that you playing games ruins them and that they play games specifically to avoid men.
And here's a study to show that women's voices on average get 3 times more abuse than men's voices or no voices: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php.
Now, why I am I bringing all that up? Is it to make you feel bad?
No.
As you yourself said, who should care what others on the internet think? I don't have any interest in making you feel bad for being male. You feeling bad or not about this changes nothing for me.

It's not a big issue for me. I don't care what people think of me online.
I have already explained this. Find the right server where people won't give you shit for being a girl.
There a plenty of them of them out there. You just need to look harder.

I think I already mentioned before. I'm pretty good at ducking the worse areas.

You are clearly not an expert if you are still having these problems.

Dismissing people who try and push out female gamers as all being `13` is a little dishonest, but as I said, you clearly already have existing opinions on this which I wish you would not put onto me.

This was a documentary about Xbox live.
Just ignore them. The internet is a cesspool for everyone.

I like using mic. It's fun. Excuse me for not thinking my actual voice is reason for argument. I don't use mic outside spaces I consider to be safe unless I'm on a private voice server with my friends.

Anybody's voice can be a reason for argument. Being a girl doesn't make you special.
Again. Find the right server.

I have been on the internet for more than five minutes, you know.
And also, it should be noted that I have several people I game with who have `Mr/Sir/Gentlemen/Guy` etc in their username or use their real name which is undoubtedly male. I guess they are all whores, right?

I'm giving you information not affirmation. Nobody cares if you are a girl/homosexual/transgender whatever. Just play the game.

I have no interest really in browbeating you about this. I just think we experience these issues differently.

That's the problem with any feminist discussion. Everytime we try to advance the conversation, the woman pulls the eject cord and leaves the discussion. We are never going to get anywhere if you keep doing this.
If you won't continue. I'm going to take this as you conceding the argument.