broca said:
Sorry, but that's just massive oversimplification plus huge overgeneralization plus some plain insulting stuff. I don't see a reason to argue with you, as that (based on you post) would lead nowhere, just wanted to voice my strong disagreement.
If you have nothing but strong disagreement, it's best not to bother posting.
If you think it's insulting, mark me and move on. If not, then provide a cogent argument. If you can't, you shouldn't bother telling people how wrong they are.
For the record, if you're talking about a general group you tend to generalise. Nobody is saying each and every member of the male/geek/gaming community is like this. It generalises because it's talking general trends and responses.
Accusing me of generalising is essentially admitting you missed the point.
Speaking of missing things....
runic knight said:
Ok, I took the time to write up that huge intro post and to try to answer most people I can in the thread. Please, please avoid blatant stereotypical bullshit just because you have had issues.
Actually, I don't have issues. Well, I do have issues, but not here. I have a lovely bass voice that doesn't get me negative attention online. My username, Zachary Amaranth (sometimes without the space) doesn't draw negative attention, either. I mean, yes, I get the standard juvenile shits, but dude...
...You just stereotyped me after complaining about stereotyping. You made baseless assumptions while accusing me of the same. Aaaaand....
But when you reduce what was suppose to be a deeper look and understanding into the whole situation to essentially one side being wrong, then you reveal a bias that has no place in the discussion at all.
I'm sorry, I don't buy into false equivalence. It's not a bias, it's an observation. I don't buy into there being equal validity to intelligent design or the theory that global warming is a hoax, either. I see no reason for false contrition to false claims.
If you can look at the arguments presented against women in gaming and tell me that both sides have equally valid points, then you, my friend, are the biased one.
And you do what the hell I said not to in the first post in attacking and blaming a group
It's neither attacking nor "blaming." Please. I spoke of actual examples from this very board which demonstrate an overall trend. The problem with people digging in their heels is intrinsic to the problem of a juvenile mentality: the gaming group as a whole needs to be treated with kid gloves not because people are wholly offensive but because gamers are so readily offended. A fast-forward button is grounds for death and rape threats. Mild tweaks to a gun's reload time is grounds for death threats. Reading off tropes in a dry, droning fashion is grounds for death and rape threats.
These are not offensive, yet the gaming community goes on the offense. These aren't even necessarily gendered issues.
Critical Miss talks about how to have an adult conversation, instant controversy.
No, I don't care your damn reasons in doing so, you don't get to reduce this to such simple bullshit as "one side is entitled whiny boysclub blablahblah". That shit does nothing to solve anything and actively derails the conversation and defeats the whole damn point of the thread.
Pretending that there's equivalence accomplishes nothing. Trying to gently handle a community that will bite even the gentle hand accomplishes nothing. Accusing it of being simple bullshit, incidentally, also solves nothing. The issues I've mentioned are the ones that need to be addressed and resolved.
And you know what? I'm going to get this out of the way right now:
The only one who has really dug their heels in and "fought" me is you. The worst I've gotten otherwise is a generic "you're wrong. You're so wrong I can't even tell you how wrong you are" post. And I preferred that one, because it still had a nicer tone.
The only one so far to make this a "fight" is you, so if you believe this is contrary to the thread's purpose,
then don't do it.
Even Phasmal hasn't replied to me at this point, and she was the one the post was aimed at.
And honestly, maybe that's for the best. It's what you should have done if you sincerely believe ANY of what you're selling. And I'll be nice enough to assume good faith here.
I made this because I care about gaming itself and believe that the community has it within them to start fixing this, not because I wanted to listen to people air their grievances and blame the other side for shit.
See, there's that "us vs them" mentality again. If it's not an issue, why do you keep bringing it up?
I'm going to be quite frank here for a moment. I'm in a pretty damn good position to spot male privilege here, being that I'm granted it constantly. It's hard to step back from yourself an analyse it, I get that. But any pretense that it does not exist is a blatant frickin' lie. Girls in this thread have already been given the advice not to "provoke a reaction" by doing things like using a microphone or in any way identifying themselves as female. Please, explain to me the equivalence. Hell, when I drop the "Zachary" from my name, an artifact of days gone by, people instantly treat me differently, though there is no distinct feminine nature to "Amaranth." I've even found it listed as a boys' name online. Interesting. But that's not the point.
I have seen nothing so far that explains any natural equivalence here. I have seen attempts, but they appear to be pretense. The "well, both sides have some good points, so let's teach creationism alongside evolution in science class" sort of deal.
Please, since you are looking to be "fair and balanced," explain to me the other side.
And while you are not the first to try to do so, my patience in trying to explain that is running out so you get hit first and the next ones start to be blocked entirely. I believe a block prevents them from posting in threads you make anyways...
I'm posting here, so evidently not. I legitimately hope you don't have me on ignore, because it would be a pity for your "proof" that there is equivalence to be lost to me forever.
Also, I'd sincerely like you to know how much you assumed and how ironic it was that you did.
Yes, there are certainly terrible, sad people in the gaming community and yes as a mass, we are not seen as the most accepting or understanding.
You mean exactly my point? If we agree, where's the problem?
I spent forever trying to explain the reasons why that shit is the way it is and is perceived in the first place
And I don't buy it.
I'm sorry, is it the dissent that has us at loggerheads? Is it that I disagree, then?
The problem here is you aren't trying to present this as a case of understanding of why, rather just worthless complaining about the situation.
Actually, I'm pointing out what really needs to be addressed here. That's not complaining. I'd prefer it if you didn't editorialise any further.
You could go into geek culture's relation to gaming and how they influence each other. You could touch on why there is a growing sense of entitlement in culture itself and how that applies. You could make a case about how anonymity itself affects how people let themselves act and react to changes in a way they never would have before in the name of their fandom. Instead you made a post that paints you as some angry feminist caricature who's only addition to the conversation is sweeping generalizations and perpetuation of petty arguments when the whole damn point of the thread was to stay as far the fuck away from that shit as possible because how worthless it is.
In short, I could make a bunch of excuses.
If I am painted as an "angry feminist caricature," it is only by your hand.
To paraphrase Bill Maher, Martin Luther King did not say "I have a dream, but these sheriffs have a point in beating us."
This thread is about understanding
And yet, you approach dissent in the least understanding way possible.
If you were sincere, you could have approached this so much better.
Your personal complaints about culture as a whole are noted but wasted here.
They're wasted, but not because they're in this specific thread. They're wasted because people are still offering apologetics to a group whose standard is to discriminate and harass. You didn't even get my argument right, because you weren't listening. You are part of the problem, and I suspect that's why you're so angry.
Also, they're not my personal complaints. But why start using facts now?
