Would you support a cure for homosexuality and transexualism?

[Abomination]

Why is that a negative though? Why in this case does bodily modification become so touchy when other people do it all the time? Just because someone wants to change themselves doesn't mean they're constantly operating in a self loathing depression.

There's a bit of a difference between wanting to improve how you look and feeling the need to completely change how you look to the degree you appear as a different sex.

What body modification are we talking about comparing it to? Haircuts? Painted nails? Piercings? Tattoos? Reconstructive surgery? Liposuction? Plastic surgery? Furry emulation surgery?

The devil's in the details here. We are talking about a procedure that makes people want to, essentially, remove their penises & Adam?s Apple, and grow redundant mammary glands. And they feel they MUST do this to themselves in order to "fix" how they appear.

If something needs fixing then, by definition, something is wrong with it. So yeah, it's a negative.

It's not fixing, it's changing. The body is just a lump of tissue is it really so much more sacred than a person's mind?

People can't just walk in and demand they change their bodies, they're supposed to see counseling to make sure it's a procedure that's beneficial to them.

Trans people aren't sick and in need of surgery to get better. But the possibility to be brought closer to how they would like to be is quite tempting and many choose to go through with it. Why is that an issue for anybody else but them?

In this scenario, and I am using the words of trans people I have met and asked about why they have gone ahead with the costly and invasive procedure, I have been told specifically they want to "fix" their body because it's the "wrong" body.

You're trying to argue semantics here and it simply is not the case. Trans are essentially people who have the wrong sex to their gender. Or the wrong gender to their sex... however you want to cut it. The point is that something is not correct. They're a square peg in a circular hole. Many can deal with this in different ways but the procedure of feeling the NEED to change their body is a sign that something is wrong.

Do not misunderstand this into me saying that trans people are broken or inferior. Do not think I consider a trans person to be a different type of person. I consider being 'tans' an ailment a person can have, not what a person is. I consider it the same as having a heart murmur, different coloured eyes, blonde hair or being an inch taller or shorter than someone else. But people do suffer from being trans and not because of external forces. Some trans people want to look at themselves in a mirror and see how they feel, they want to see a woman (or a man) and not the man (or woman) they have the misfortune of appearing as.

That would be how this hypothetical cure could be applied. It would fix that problem right there.

How is that a bad thing?

 

[squeekenator]

I can't claim to speak for everyone but most dysphoric attacks I've seen have been triggered by other people. I'm aware that there's a general discomfort but I think that that's something to be confronted not to deny and run away from.

But dysphoric incidents are triggered entirely independently of others as well. Even if we accept that those ones are less common, which I don't think is true but let's roll with it, being trans still has a negative impact of your life independently of discrimination, and if you weren't discriminated against, judged, misunderstood, whatever, it would still have an overall negative effect on your life.

 

[xmbts]

Why is that a negative though? Why in this case does bodily modification become so touchy when other people do it all the time? Just because someone wants to change themselves doesn't mean they're constantly operating in a self loathing depression.

If someone does not get their ears pierced, they do not experience psychological suffering and/or discomfort (something I presume pre-op transgendered individuals would experience whether someone was standing there calling them an abomination or not). Let's not kid ourselves; operations of this type are entirely different, in intent and execution, from almost any other kind of bodily modification. It's not wrong in the moral sense, but it is in the functional, "My car is out of gas and won't run" sense.

As Abomination said, if it ain't broken, it doesn't need fixing. So do transgendered folks need corrective surgery or not?

I never said they need it. And it's not fixing, it's changing. Completely different. There are plenty who choose to live without surgery,

And I've found that insecure people, trans or not, tend to become more confident and secure with themselves in a supportive environment.

You say yourself it's not morally wrong, and if it's not morally wrong, quite frankly it's none of anyone else's business is it?

Now this whole line of discussion has trailed from the original purpose of the thread, if you wish to continue it you can PM me.

snip

The problem is that being transgendered is something that distinctly changes a person's life. It's a major part of their life experience and having it reduced to the status of an ailment or an anomaly that can be erased is almost demeaning. Most I know would much rather change their body then their mind.

And something like that could, and very likely would be horribly misused, tolerance and support is better, for everyone, then finding ways to medically homogenize society.

I can't claim to speak for everyone but most dysphoric attacks I've seen have been triggered by other people. I'm aware that there's a general discomfort but I think that that's something to be confronted not to deny and run away from.

But dysphoric incidents are triggered entirely independently of others as well. Even if we accept that those ones are less common, which I don't think is true but let's roll with it, being trans still has a negative impact of your life independently of discrimination, and if you weren't discriminated against, judged, misunderstood, whatever, it would still have an overall negative effect on your life.

Life isn't all about comfort, a big part is handling the difficulties that come your way. I just don't believe that destroying pieces of your identity is the way to go about resolving those issues.

 

[Shadowstar38]

The body is just a lump of tissue is it really so much more sacred than a person's mind?

Generally speaking, if the options are change the chemical composition of the brain or do a massive invasive procedure, I'd at least try the first one out being that it's the safer and easier solution. Patients and doctors alike in most situations would agree with me.

 

[xmbts]

The body is just a lump of tissue is it really so much more sacred than a person's mind?

Generally speaking, if the options are change the chemical composition of the brain or do a massive invasive procedure, I'd at least try the first one out being that it's the safer and easier solution. Patients and doctors alike in most situations would agree with me.

Personally I'd take any alternative to something messing with my brain, my brain like anyone else's has it's ups and downs but it's what makes me who I am. I'd much rather my body look different than be a different person.

 

[Shadowstar38]

The body is just a lump of tissue is it really so much more sacred than a person's mind?

Generally speaking, if the options are change the chemical composition of the brain or do a massive invasive procedure, I'd at least try the first one out being that it's the safer and easier solution. Patients and doctors alike in most situations would agree with me.

Personally I'd take any alternative to something messing with my brain, my brain like anyone else's has it's ups and downs but it's what makes me who I am. I'd much rather my body look different than be a different person.

It wouldn't be changing who you are. Unless your gender or sexual orientation is your one defining characteristic. Then your problem is simply that you're kind of boring =P

If a mental treatment for gender dismorphia(spelling) acted like any other mind altering medication, it wouldn't change your personality. It would just remove the cognitive dissonance.

 

[xmbts]

The body is just a lump of tissue is it really so much more sacred than a person's mind?

Generally speaking, if the options are change the chemical composition of the brain or do a massive invasive procedure, I'd at least try the first one out being that it's the safer and easier solution. Patients and doctors alike in most situations would agree with me.

Personally I'd take any alternative to something messing with my brain, my brain like anyone else's has it's ups and downs but it's what makes me who I am. I'd much rather my body look different than be a different person.

It wouldn't be changing who you are. Unless your gender or sexual orientation is your one defining characteristic. Then your problem is simply that you're kind of boring =P

If a mental treatment for gender dismorphia(spelling) acted like any other mind altering medication, it wouldn't change your personality. It would just remove the cognitive dissonance.

I've taken mind altering medication, the difference was night and day.

It did what it was supposed to but I could barely function socially, barely ate, rarely slept and generally didn't find any enjoyment in anything.

And your gender identity and sexual orientation are small parts of what makes you who you are, but how can you say changing that won't effect anything else? I wouldn't have met any of the people I have through the community, I wouldn't have gotten closer to my family through the process of coming out, I wouldn't have the same opinions I do without the perspective it's granted me.

 

[squeekenator]

Life isn't all about comfort, a big part is handling the difficulties that come your way. I just don't believe that destroying pieces of your identity is the way to go about resolving those issues.

So we've gone from 'being trans has no negative effects on your life except for being discriminated against' to 'yeah, being trans is bad, but you can just fucking deal with it'?

 

[xmbts]

Life isn't all about comfort, a big part is handling the difficulties that come your way. I just don't believe that destroying pieces of your identity is the way to go about resolving those issues.

So we've gone from 'being trans has no negative effects on your life except for being discriminated against' to 'yeah, being trans is bad, but you can just fucking deal with it'?

Nope!

It isn't good or bad, but if it's a part of your life then it's something that you have to learn to cope with, and hopefully find some amount of happiness with. I'm not telling you to suck it up, I know it's much harder for some people then others and you can only go at your own pace, but isn't that more worthwhile than just medicating it away and pretending it never existed?

 

[Abomination]

snip

The problem is that being transgendered is something that distinctly changes a person's life. It's a major part of their life experience and having it reduced to the status of an ailment or an anomaly that can be erased is almost demeaning.

Hold your horses right now. Are you saying I am being demeaning for wanting to treat a trans person just the same as I would treat any other person? I mean, it has to be one or the other here. Either they're just the same as everyone else but are trans or they're trans and that makes them different from everybody else on a significant level.

I find it more offensive to try and treat them like they're "special"... because they're not. They're just people who are trans. They're not trans who are people. And that is a very significant distinction.

Most I know would much rather change their body then their mind.

Gender identity confusion is still in a nebulous phase as being classified as a physical anomaly or a mental anomaly. Jury is still out on this one but from what I've seen it's leaning far more towards being a mental anomaly.

And something like that could, and very likely would be horribly misused, tolerance and support is better, for everyone, then finding ways to medically homogenize society.

Just because something is misused does not mean the option shouldn't be made unavailable for others. Understanding a cure would require first understanding the ailment... and we still don't understand it fully. What causes it, what it means, nature or nurture, choice or chance.

 

[xmbts]

snip

The problem is that being transgendered is something that distinctly changes a person's life. It's a major part of their life experience and having it reduced to the status of an ailment or an anomaly that can be erased is almost demeaning.

Hold your horses right now. Are you saying I am being demeaning for wanting to treat a trans person just the same as I would treat any other person? I mean, it has to be one or the other here. Either they're just the same as everyone else but are trans or they're trans and that makes them different from everybody else on a significant level.

I find it more offensive to try and treat them like they're "special"... because they're not. They're just people who are trans. They're not trans who are people. And that is a very significant distinction.

Most I know would much rather change their body then their mind.

Gender identity confusion is still in a nebulous phase as being classified as a physical anomaly or a mental anomaly. Jury is still out on this one but from what I've seen it's leaning far more towards being a mental anomaly.

And something like that could, and very likely would be horribly misused, tolerance and support is better, for everyone, then finding ways to medically homogenize society.

Just because something is misused does not mean the option shouldn't be made unavailable for others. Understanding a cure would require first understanding the ailment... and we still don't understand it fully. What causes it, what it means, nature or nurture, choice or chance.

People all have their differences, differences which shouldn't be ignored. They don't make anyone more or less deserving of fair treatment but completely ignoring a situation unique from your own, good intentions aside, can often rub others the wrong way. It's about Tact not favoritism.

And even if someone finds the cause or mixture of causes will the average person understand, or even care to understand or will it just be a fancy new way to erase a situation that many people have struggled to take pride in and give recognition to.

 

[squeekenator]

It isn't good or bad, but if it's a part of your life then it's something that you have to learn to cope with, and hopefully find some amount of happiness with. I'm not telling you to suck it up, I know it's much harder for some people then others and you can only go at your own pace, but isn't that more worthwhile than just medicating it away and pretending it never existed?

Would you say the same thing to someone who lost a limb? Tell them that learning to live with it is better than getting a new one?

 

[xmbts]

It isn't good or bad, but if it's a part of your life then it's something that you have to learn to cope with, and hopefully find some amount of happiness with. I'm not telling you to suck it up, I know it's much harder for some people then others and you can only go at your own pace, but isn't that more worthwhile than just medicating it away and pretending it never existed?

Would you say the same thing to someone who lost a limb? Tell them that learning to live with it is better than getting a new one?

I don't believe that to be a similar situation, getting a new limb wouldn't change that person's life in the same ways that some mind altering treatment would. Either way I have no interest in offending you or arguing with you, I simply don't believe that the mind needs to be altered in order for a transgendered person to feel more comfortable with who they are.

Perhaps we should end this discussion before people get upset over it.

 

[Abomination]

People all have their differences, differences which shouldn't be ignored. They don't make anyone more or less deserving of fair treatment but completely ignoring a situation unique from your own, good intentions aside, can often rub others the wrong way. It's about Tact not favoritism.

And even if someone finds the cause or mixture of causes will the average person understand, or even care to understand or will it just be a fancy new way to erase a situation that many people have struggled to take pride in and give recognition to.

If someone takes pride in something they shouldn't require special treatment in relation to it.

Either you treat someone the same as everyone else or treat them differently because they perhaps have a disability or require extra help. If it's the former then being trans is nothing special. If it's the latter then being trans is a negative thing and options for an individual to deal with it is not harmful.

Demanding to be able to eat your cake and have it to in this scenario will do nothing but earn ire from other groups towards the trans camp... something that has unfortunately been happening with some frequency.

 

[xmbts]

People all have their differences, differences which shouldn't be ignored. They don't make anyone more or less deserving of fair treatment but completely ignoring a situation unique from your own, good intentions aside, can often rub others the wrong way. It's about Tact not favoritism.

And even if someone finds the cause or mixture of causes will the average person understand, or even care to understand or will it just be a fancy new way to erase a situation that many people have struggled to take pride in and give recognition to.

If someone takes pride in something they shouldn't require special treatment in relation to it.

Either you treat someone the same as everyone else or treat them differently because they perhaps have a disability or require extra help. If it's the former then being trans is nothing special. If it's the latter then being trans is a negative thing and options for an individual to deal with it is not harmful.

Demanding to be able to eat your cake and have it to in this scenario will do nothing but earn ire from other groups towards the trans camp... something that has unfortunately been happening with some frequency.

It's a group that has it's own unique set of issues, concerns and touchy subjects, I don't think it's fair to gloss over those. It's not special treatment, it's respectfully acknowledging that people are indeed different. These differences shouldn't set them apart from everyone else but likewise shouldn't be ignored for the sake of convenience. Equality takes understanding, not simplification.

 

[squeekenator]

Perhaps we should end this discussion before people get upset over it.

Yeah, that's probably a good idea.

 

[Abomination]

Equality takes understanding, not simplification.

But there's the rub. In order for everyone to understand something it needs to be made simple. Not everone can understand what trans actually is... not every trans person understands what trans actually is. It's a very complicated sitatuion for an individual to be in.

If it's complicated for trans people imagine how difficult it is for your average Jo who has never (knowingly) met a trans person before.

Education is tantamount to understanding and you can't give everyone a full university course in what trans is. You have to simplify it.