Xbox One Not Backwards Compatible

[accipitre]

So many people here that don't understand that you can't just run PowerPC code on x86-64 hardware. There's no way in hell they can "just emulate" the 360 on current hardware. Or they would have to heighten the price and include a separate PowerPC chip.

I'm pretty sure the original Xbox and Xbox 360 had this very same difference, yet that didn't stop them from letting me play Halo 2 on my Xbox 360 through emulation software integrated into the machine.

The emulation was easy to get working in that case as the original Xbox was so much more basic in terms of hardware complexity and performance than the 360. The Xbox had a 733MHz x86 Pentium III while the 360 has a 3.2GHz tri-core PowerPC Xenon. Most emulation software requires a CPU to have a much higher clock than the emulated CPU as this makes timing requirements much easier to meet. While we don't have any exact numbers for the Xbone CPU, I would say it would be in the 3.0 to 3.4GHz range. This would make the timing requirements and absolute ***** to meet.

Original Xbox games running on the Xbone should be very easy for Microsoft though. No reason they can't do that.

EDIT: I have just heard some rumours of the Xbone being 1.6GHz which would make sense if they are using one of the laptop AMD APUs.

Erm...

AMD's cheap octocores are not clocked at a high speed. Their outdated architecture worsens the situation. As I said earlier, there are working Xbox 360 emulators on the PC. Clock speed is not the only factor in performance.

Besides. AMD is releasing a $700 octocore clocked at 5ghz in the near future (with room for overclocking, to boot, and cool enough to air-cool). Give it a few years and that sort of thing will probably be rather commonplace.

 

[SpAc3man]

The emulation was easy to get working in that case as the original Xbox was so much more basic in terms of hardware complexity and performance than the 360. The Xbox had a 733MHz x86 Pentium III while the 360 has a 3.2GHz tri-core PowerPC Xenon. Most emulation software requires a CPU to have a much higher clock than the emulated CPU as this makes timing requirements much easier to meet. While we don't have any exact numbers for the Xbone CPU, I would say it would be in the 3.0 to 3.4GHz range. This would make the timing requirements and absolute ***** to meet.

Original Xbox games running on the Xbone should be very easy for Microsoft though. No reason they can't do that.

EDIT: I have just heard some rumours of the Xbone being 1.6GHz which would make sense if they are using one of the laptop AMD APUs.

Erm...

AMD's cheap octocores are not clocked at a high speed. Their outdated architecture worsens the situation. As I said earlier, there are working Xbox 360 emulators on the PC. Clock speed is not the only factor in performance.

Besides. AMD is releasing a $700 octocore clocked at 5ghz in the near future (with room for overclocking, to boot, and cool enough to air-cool). Give it a few years and that sort of thing will probably be rather commonplace.

See my edit. Lower CPU speed means it would be even harder.

I am well aware that clock speed is not the only factor when it comes to performance. I should know seeing as I am designing my own pure hardware game console at university at the moment. However in the case of emulators it is very important in order to match the timing requirements of the emulated hardware. With a high clock speed you have more flexibility when it comes to matching the emulated hardware operations.

A good example of this in real life is the PCSX2 emulator. If we look at the recommended system requirements for the CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo @ 3.2 GHz or better OR i3/i5/i7 @ 2.8 GHz or better.
Already we can see that these requirements are a bit lop-sided. How is it they compare a 3.2 Ghz C2D with a 2.8 GHz i3/i5/i7? The C2D would be destroyed by any of those other CPUs. The reason is the main factor for the emulator is the clock speed. Emulators heavily rely on the clock speed of a CPU in order to meet the timing requirements.

 

[Quazimofo]

7 years of building a game library that won't play at all on the new system...

It's never a deal-breaker, but, dammit, Xbox's are crappy pieces of hardware, and I'd like to keep playing these games more than a few years from now.

Emulation software and game-pads. I couldn't tell you an xbox emulator off the top of my head, nor could I account for the quality, though I CAN tell you that there will be a significant improvement in the xbox emulator "market" very soon in light of recent announcements.

 

[gyroscopeboy]

I'd like to keep playing these games more than a few years from now.

Then keep your 360...

I don't see what all the complaining is about!? If you have 360 games you love then keep your 360 and plug it in when you want to play. It doesn't take long to switch a few cables around and bingo. Sorted.

This is true, however Microsoft just evaporated all their brand loyalty. If the PS4 has better exclusives, I have nothing stopping me from choosing that instead of the Xbone, seeing as I can't use my xbox 360 games on either system.

 

[Strazdas]

So, to put it short, Microsoft just did the exact same mistake SOny did when it invented new architecture with PS3 and then get to suffer for it for 2 console generations. Looks liek SONY is ahead of microsoft by a whole 7 years....

Absolute bullshit. If it's Microsoft anything, it's windows based. My computer can still play x86 games.

actually, it cant. your x64 processor cannot play x86 games or run programs. what it does is emulate a x64 process while using x86 data. There is a reason win64 has actually TWO windows in it, one is for emulating 32x software. its sort of like a native virtual box that you never see.

 

[Snow Fire]

Absolute bullshit. If it's Microsoft anything, it's windows based. My computer can still play x86 games.

The 360 architecture is powerpc based, which is not compatible with the x86 architecture of the Xbox One. Also, x86 is used still, namely x86 64 bit supported from Windows XP((maybe earlier) to Windows 8. No successor to x86 exists, so hopefully this won't happen again for a long time. Sony is also going with x86, so the PS4 will also not be backwards compatible.

actually, it cant. your x64 processor cannot play x86 games or run programs. what it does is emulate a x64 process while using x86 data. There is a reason win64 has actually TWO windows in it, one is for emulating 32x software. its sort of like a native virtual box that you never see.

It should be able to, x64 is just short for x86 64 bit.

 

[wizzy555]

So, to put it short, Microsoft just did the exact same mistake SOny did when it invented new architecture with PS3 and then get to suffer for it for 2 console generations. Looks liek SONY is ahead of microsoft by a whole 7 years....

Absolute bullshit. If it's Microsoft anything, it's windows based. My computer can still play x86 games.

actually, it cant. your x64 processor cannot play x86 games or run programs. what it does is emulate a x64 process while using x86 data. There is a reason win64 has actually TWO windows in it, one is for emulating 32x software. its sort of like a native virtual box that you never see.

That's only half right. The x86_64 processors run 32 and 64 bit code without software emulation (other 64 bit architectures may not be able to). 64 bit windows isn't really 2 windows, it just preserves the 32-bit api in a special area to allow old programs to interface properly.

While this is technically a form of emulation it isn't a "software" emulation that a typical emulator uses. Software emulation is far slower.

 

[Slash2x]

XBone is my new favourite name for this console! Long may it haunt Microsoft!

LMAO that is awesome! I bet those idiots did not even think that would happen. I love the morons that work at Micro$oft



OT.

So yeah I might buy one of these.... In 2020..... For $50....

PC gaming here I GO!

Years from now... "Daddy when did the consoles die?" "well son 2013 when Sony and Micro$oft decided to screw over their existing customers." "Daddy why did they do that? Did they not like them?" " No son they hated the consumer, because they said we were all dishonest morons who would buy what they made no matter what it was" "Daddy were they stupid?" "Yes... yes they were my boy."

Backwards compatibility isn't exactly easy. Even on the PC. And there's been lots of consoles with no backwards compatibility that did fine.

Yeah we as the consumers should definitely feel sorry for the international company having to work so hard to get their old games to play on the new system. I would hate for them to put some thought and work into the new system they are charging so little for.....

I do not think they EVER plan on even TRYING to add 360 games to the system.

My "conversation" with my son was more poking at the fact there has been NOTHING that has excited consumers about this new generation we are being force fed. If there are features that are not ready then they should not release the system yet. I for one am just going to leave the new consoles behind and move to my PC.

Side note anyone else see the drop in Microsoft stock after they announced this turd, and Sony went up about 10%?

 

[Strazdas]

That's only half right. The x86_64 processors run 32 and 64 bit code without software emulation (other 64 bit architectures may not be able to). 64 bit windows isn't really 2 windows, it just preserves the 32-bit api in a special area to allow old programs to interface properly.

While this is technically a form of emulation it isn't a "software" emulation that a typical emulator uses. Software emulation is far slower.

Not all processors are x86_64 though is it. essentialy its a extension to 32 bit IA-32. I am not sure of its popularity among modern CPUs though.

And the name for the evulation is called "Windows on Windows" for a reason. sure its not a full software emulation, that would be a very slow and clunky way of dealing with it, but its emulation and not a simply "i can run 32bit on 64 bit deal.

 

[Xarathox]

Well, I'm absolutely not surprised in the slightest.

At any rate, I decided a while back to not buy into the next generation of consoles. Never bought a PS3, due to both Sony's pre-launch "people are dumb sheep and will buy whatever we sell them" bullshit and not having more than two exclusives on it that I wanted to play. Nintendo hasn't mattered to me since the N64, though I did buy a 'cube for $40 right before the Wii came out so I could try out the MGS1 remake (which sucked ass), so the 360 was my only purchase (three times over because they keep breaking) and I'm at the point where I hate the fucking thing.

In other words; fuck them, fuck everything they stand for and fuck their shoes.

 

[Ukomba]

Looks like another next gen I'm not going to be buying.

 

[Midniqht]

Ya, sure, totally.

Yet my PC can play all 4 Halo's at the same time (I mean like literally at the same time) no problem. I'm not a tech guru, but I think it's common sense that if 2 games that essentially look and function the same way can't be made to work on the same hardware you're doing something wrong, or perhaps you've done something wrong when you made the 2 devices.

Either way I have no sympathy, whatever problems stand in the way of doing this they're just problems Microsoft created for themselves somewhere along the line. Nintendo doesn't seem to have much trouble with it, both the Wii and WiiU were backwards compatible and I'm pretty sure every DS/Gameboy has been backwards compatible at least one generation going all the way back to the gameboy color.

But what you did there is just spin the problem around. You can play all the Halos you want on your PC, but there's a difference. You didn't change your hardware or architecture. Instead, in your case, it was the SOFTWARE that was rewritten to be compatible with the hardware. Not the other way around, if you see what I mean. Nintendo didn't have trouble with it because they're using the same tired architecture still. Beyond the WiiU, there wasn't much hardware innovation between their systems. The problem flows both ways. I get that backwards compatibility is important, but in this day and age with ever-changing hardware, it should never be a deal breaker.

To be fair, using software available for free on the internet I could play virtually any game released during the PS2 era and before on my laptop, and quite possibly during the current generation if my laptop had a bit more juice behind it. Fair enough, I can see that working on a coherent and reliable emulator would eat up time and money, but if people are willing to release them for free, surely Microsoft could afford to do it.

Also, didn't Sony essentially put a PS2 chip into the PS3 to deal with backwards compatibility?

Yes, they did, which is why the PS3 cost so much money when it was first released. The customers had to pay for that cost difference. Microsoft can certainly afford to do the same if they wanted, but it would increase the price of the console on release, which most people won't want to pay extra for. Notice how the price of the PS3 dropped the moment they removed compatibility? It's not just as simple as putting in a chip and expecting people to pony up the cash.

 

[Lightknight]

First off, I would like to thank you for wording your position and opinion very well even though it was clearly contrary to my own. I wish more internet comments were like this!

It certainly helps to avoid a heated argument when you and your "opponent" know that the other is putting genuine thought and time into the discussion. I appreciate your thoughtful response as well.

The thing is, I probably spend most my time playing old games now, as a lot of the newest ones don't really interest me. Oh sure, there are exceptions, that's why I would have considered getting a new console to begin with. Last year I bought Halo 4 and Borderlands 2 for my 360... however, that's all I bought. I am thinking about getting Bioshock Infinite on my 360 as well, but nothing else coming out this year for that console interests me. I do however have quite a large backlog of 360 games that I do enjoy. It seems I liked the 360 much more when it first appeared, and it appeared (to me) the games have more variety in their library.

But overall, I am a BAD person to ask this lol. I bought a PS3 to basically play PS1 games. I held off getting a PS3 for the longest time because I only wanted 1 game for it (MGS4) so I couldn't justify the price. However I then learned every model of PS3 can play PS1 games, and I love my PS1 library (58 games). My PS2 is one of those finicky models that often has trouble reading specific kinds of discs, so I bought the PS3 to basically play MGS4 and all my PS1 games... and I do!
I am currently also buying new PS1 games that I am playing and enjoy right at this very moment. After Seeing game grumps episode where they play Strider 2, I saw I missed an amazing gem and paid $60 (the price of a New 360/PS3 game) for a near mint copy of it on ebay. It was worth every penny.
I am currently using the wiiU's downtime to play my wii games as well, as well as virtual console games which technically count as 'Old Games'. Super Metroid is actually paused on my wiiU game pad right now as I took this opportunity to charge it while I reply to comments online. I've been playing it off and on at my desk today, so I was playing an old game on a new console while you were typing your comment... that answer your question? XD

Ok, then your play style is significantly different than mine.

As a side note, I would recommend the PSP or Vita for your PS1 selection, unless you just want them on the TV. But usually they'll allow installation onto three devices. I recently got Front Mission 3 as well as several Final Fantasy titles for my PSP and it made a long trip to Seattle this year much nicer. My wife also likes to curl up in a recliner and play on the PS Vita in the computer room while I'm playing. It's nice to have a legitimate handheld sometimes, depending on your preferences. Sony's handhelds are excellent at playing those old titles and I've finally gotten to start playing the early Final Fantasy games that I'd missed. Just beware of Sony's memory stick pricing.

This brings up another important topic related to the xbox... Even if I did keep mine in good condition for the next 4 years (and I will) I honestly doubt it will still work. 360's aren't known for that, you know? Even my fat PS3 died at some point and I had to eventually get a slim, much to my reluctance. Long gone are the days of sturdy design like the SNES. These things we have now? Yeah, most of them won't be here down the road. All the more important that we have the ability to play these games.

The 360's 24% failure rate has finally fallen in-line with the ps3 standard of 10%. So it is significantly more reliable depending on which version you got. But yeah, the less than 5% failure rate of the systems of yore (and the Wii) are remarkable and indeed gone like you said. However, I would not see them disappearing in ten years and I believe there will be a market for this generation's hardware emulation unless Sony and Microsoft do a good job of porting games for digital purchases. For that reason, I don't think it's too much of a valid concern though your play style is so centered around backwards compatibility that I can certainly see the hassel in having to replace old systems.

The fat ps3's had a fan issue. You actually have to replace the fan in those if you want to maximize how long you have them. Otherwise the hardware eventually burns to a halt. I'm not saying that was necessarily the problem, but it usually is. Perhaps you even heard the fan struggling. We have an extra PS3 in our house connected to another TV (we basically use it as a roku now). It whirs away and I just haven't gotten around to fixing the fan even though it's a backwards compatible one. When I buy the ps4 the newer ps3 in our living room will replace that one and that one will get a good dusting off and take the ranks in the system shrine should it ever be called up to bat again.

Hmm, I don't think I've ever gotten a system at launch. Maybe half a year afterwards. I thought Sega already taught us that lesson?

Well, I'm sorry to say, but you're simply suffering from intelligence. It might be difficult when all the other kids are camping at the mall for release night, but know that you're not alone and that others too suffer from encephalic activities.

Learning from mistakes, even if those are not your own, is indeed a burden, but if we stick together I'm sure we can make it. nantoka~

One of my favorite sayings goes something like this: The wise man learns from the mistakes of others while the fool has to learn from his own. Not that I'm saying early adopters are fools. Our development cycle practically lives or dies by them. It's just that they're taking a calculated risk and I'm not that much of a gambler. I did once go to a casino for a bachelor party and turned $1 into $215 on the first slot machine I went to. That was it for the evening. One button and out.

 

[Rinshan Kaihou]

Wow, I had no idea just how ignorant people were. Complaining about lack of backwards compatability? How about games that were previously platform exclusive now may not be. Why? Because now both the Xbone and the PS4 use the x86 architecture, meaning that those games are already in native format for the other, and for PC.

Also, what, did you want them to include an entire XBOX 360 motherboard, CPU, and GPU in there too for the sake of backwards compatability? Ok let's add an extra $150 onto the price I 'm sure it will sell like hotcakes. /sarcasm.

Just because it's a microsoft console doesn't MEAN anything. It's still a completely different architecture. The CPU is built completely differently, uses different machine code, different microcode, it's like, comparing an electric motor, and a gasoline engine. They use two completely different methods to achieve a similar result.


This isn't like the PS2, which used the PS1 CPU as it's I/O controller. That wouldn't work here. It's impossible without adding a couple hundred more dollars onto the price. And if they did that, you would all complain about the price.

They are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And to be honest, they took the smart one. One that will at least result in selling more consoles- lower price.

 

[Rinshan Kaihou]

And oh my god, my head hurts.

x64 IS IS IS IS IS IS x86.

IT IS. x64 isn't even a thing really. It's ACTUALLY x86-64, just x64 for short. It is the 64 bit extension of x86 which is orginally 32 bit.


A x86 program will work perfectly on an x86-64 computer. You do it all the time. 90% of windows applications are still 32 bit or x86 based. Generally the OS runs it in a shell, but is completely transparent, and you will never know the difference. It is still at it's basics, the same architecture.

You are talking a whole different thing, to emulate the XBOX 360 on the Xbone. PS2 emulators are pretty system intensive, 360 wouldn't really be possible on most systems. emulators require so much overhead and compute power, that it wouldn't work.

 

[lostlevel]

It seems like these consoles are going to be similar,
I think it might be coming down to who has the best exclusives.

I couldn't care less about watching TV, sharing on fb/twitter, or DVRs.

The lack of backwards compatibility is quite liberating in a way as I felt like I missed out on some of the games on PS3 but thought it was too late in the generation to bother with new hardware. So I guess I get to change teams depending on which one is the most tempting or involves the least BS... so a partial win I guess =]

 

[Lightknight]

Wow, I had no idea just how ignorant people were. Complaining about lack of backwards compatability? How about games that were previously platform exclusive now may not be. Why? Because now both the Xbone and the PS4 use the x86 architecture, meaning that those games are already in native format for the other, and for PC.

I'm glad you get that too. All future consoles if new generations exist will finally be backwards compatible. Digital copies of games purchased for the ps4 should then be playable on the ps8. This is really the ultimate move for people who demand backwards compatibility and it really streamlines development (porting stuff takes work and time).

 

[redmoretrout]

Any word if the Xbone will require a subscription for to play online? That is literally the entire reason I supported the Playstation this generation.