Yatzhee Mentions Objectivism a Lot

Alex_P

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JMeganSnow said:
This would be a misrepresentation, but not nearly as bad as many I've encountered--it just needs a little clarification.

Ayn Rand was not a fan of the "great man" theory of history, in fact the Objectivist theory of history she created is based on the fact that individuals will *ultimately* act based on their philosophical beliefs and thus that the trends of history can be traced back to the prevailing ideology of the time.

Although Rand's fiction portrays men on a heroic scale, this doesn't mean that Objectivist philosophy despises ordinary or even below-average people. That would be Nietzsche or the numerous variations of Social Darwinism. Objectivism simply states that because each individual exists *for his own sake*, being ordinary or below average doesn't *entitle* you to anything *from other people*. You can ask, but you cannot demand with a gun as your argument.
I definitely shouldn't have said "great man theory of history". It would be simpler and more accurate to just claim that her heroes are hyper-idealized "great men".

JMeganSnow said:
It is the *only* philosophy that repudiates the principle that ANYONE exists as fodder for ANYONE else under ANY circumstances.
Consider a relationship -- lets say an economic relationship -- between two unequal parties. Laws and systems -- even just ones that define basic rights -- allow us to bestow various benefits on one or the other (usually at the other's expense). Assume that we're striving to achieve a balance between their interests, in the sense that we want to be able to say that their dealings are fair and that neither one is exploiting the other. Different political philosophers have different opinions about what best qualifies as that balance and how it is to be achieved. Some other hardcore "free-market" capitalist might argue that Rand's particular idea of rights is missing some fundamental aspect which renders her vision of laissez-faire capitalism inherently exploitative or unfair, for example (in either direction, potentially).

-- Alex
 

mkb07a

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Was this supposed to turn into another philosophy thread? Ah, probably not, but I'll chuck in my change, for what it's worth.

Ayn Rand's "philosophy" is laughable, and Chilango2 hit the nail directly on the head.
Chilango2 said:
Randian Objectivism is full free-market no government regulations capitalism as a religion, more or less. Greed is good. Helping other people is bad. The rich are more moral than the poor because their being rich demonstrates they are useful and productive members of society.

In addition, it has this cult of the self-intersted perfectly rational individual, who should be (and in his heroic form is)free to the 'users' of society.

It's a philosophy that basically argues that economic inequality is perfectly just and the results of the actual merits of the individuals.

It's very popular among certain classes of teenage boys, especially online, and people who mentally never grew up from being teenage boys.

Invariably, they think of themselves as John Galt, genius individualist supermen who achieved their place in life on their own merit and with their own skills.

They, of course, ignore the things that life gives to them through virtue of their race and class.
The emphasis I used in the above quote is my own, and for the first bit in bold, I just have to say that as a person who's far below the poverty line now and was below the poverty line most her life, it's really freaking hard to get to where you need to be to excel like all those amazing, morally wonderful rich people. Man! Someone needs to tell the working class that they've got it wrong and if they just did what rich people do, they'd be fine! Justified economic inequality is a load of rubbish. As for the second bit in bold-

"I got here by myself! I did everything on my own! Wait, you, another pulled-up-by-his-own-bootstraps person, have a company? My company is wrong? Ah! I'll help you with your company by washing windows!"
 

theklng

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SimuLord said:
Ken Korda said:
Hey! I asked a question here! Does nobody want to further my understanding of objectivism?
Objectivism: An insidious, amoral belief system that subverts the soul, the metaphysical, and all that is beautiful in the world as adherents have their minds twisted by "reason" into something approximating Lieutenant Commander Data before he got his emotion chip. Celebration of the unknown, mankind's inborn spirituality, the lively debate of that which cannot be proven, all are subverted to the practice of atheism as a dogmatic religion as insidious as any other form of fundamentalism upon this earth, with similarly totalitarian and terroristic end results. For all its celebration of individual freedom, Objectivism sure does rely an awful lot on demolition of the spirit as all must conform to the new order lest they be ridiculed and ostracized.

Just a disgusting, cultish belief set, really. They've corrupted the word "libertarian" into something nihilistic and evil.
are you kidding me?

objectivism relates to what some say is "rational self interest", but what more is that objectivism tells you that you should not lose out your own integrity for those who will not appreciate you. in no way does objectivism ask you to "do this or become ridiculed", it asks you value yourself as high as you are.

i'm tired of seeing judgments being flung around like poo when people aren't even able to understand the core principles of this philosophy.
 

EzraPound

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i'm tired of seeing judgments being flung around like poo when people aren't even able to understand the core principles of this philosophy.
A surprising number of people in this thread do understand the core principles of the philosophy - the core principles are just retarded.
 

jdnoth

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"They didn't have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using . . . . What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent."

Ayn Rand's objective view on genocide.
 

Ken Korda

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How does objectivism explain the economic crisis? It seems to me the recent downturn has been casued, predominately, by banking organisations operating without regulation and making short term profits at the expense of long term stability. Doesn't objectivism suggest that free market economics is the best method for societal development? Surely the recent failure of the banking system shows that markets do need regulation in order to protect them from themselves?
 

GloatingSwine

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JMeganSnow said:
You can ask, but you cannot demand with a gun as your argument.
As history frequently shows, this falls apart as soon as someone has a gun as their argument.
 

GloatingSwine

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Ken Korda said:
How does objectivism explain the economic crisis? It seems to me the recent downturn has been casued, predominately, by banking organisations operating without regulation and making short term profits at the expense of long term stability. Doesn't objectivism suggest that free market economics is the best method for societal development? Surely the recent failure of the banking system shows that markets do need regulation in order to protect them from themselves?
It doesn't. Objectivism would say that bankers would, of course, prefer a sustainable strategy because that is in their "enlightened self interest", allowing them to reap the benefits of their position for much longer.

Oh. Wait.
 

Ken Korda

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Just to clarify, I'm not into onjectivism, I was just wondering if anyone who did support the theory (ie the OP) could defend this philosophy but so far the defenders of objectivism seem to be staying away from this thread
 

Alex_P

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harhol said:
Not only was Rand one of the most evil people to ever walk the earth, she was a terrible, terrible, terrible writer.
Lets treat this with a sense of proportion.

Rand was definitively not one of the "most evil people to ever walk the earth". No matter what you think of what she said, look at what she actually did: think a lot, write a few books and plays, take a few lovers, lead a little clique of people who agreed with her. What's her great sin, exactly? Stuffing a 50-page speech into the middle of a novel? Putting a few bad ideas in Greenspan's head?

-- Alex
 

JMeganSnow

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Alex_P said:
Consider a relationship -- lets say an economic relationship -- between two unequal parties. Laws and systems -- even just ones that define basic rights -- allow us to bestow various benefits on one or the other (usually at the other's expense).
What does "unequal" mean in this context?

In an Objectivist context, there is only one kind of "unequal" relationship that matters: one that involves the use of physical force. Voluntary relationships and exchanges (those that do not involve physical force) are not "unequal" because all involved parties retain the ability to choose.

There is *no possible way* to achieve "equality" between an honest citizen and a would-be thief, which is what all other systems are basically attempting to do. They are somehow trying to "balance" the justice of two claims, one of which is "I made it and it belongs to me" and the other of which is "I just want it".

Just as you cannot successfully escape the consequences of your actions in the physical realm (you can't shoot yourself in the head and expect nothing to happen), you can't escape the consequences of such acts in the ethical or political realms. Objectivism recognizes this and demands perfect *political* equality of the type originally espoused by the Founding Fathers--the type of equality where if you produce something, *you own it unconditionally*, not with contingencies based on the unknown and unknowable desires of any random passerby.
 

JMeganSnow

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GloatingSwine said:
JMeganSnow said:
You can ask, but you cannot demand with a gun as your argument.
As history frequently shows, this falls apart as soon as someone has a gun as their argument.
This is why rights must be defended *with* force used strictly in retaliation against those who initiate its use. Unilateral pacifism is a stupid strategy, yes. That does not mean that it is therefore intelligent to become a bank robber.
 

GloatingSwine

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JMeganSnow said:
This is why rights must be defended *with* force used strictly in retaliation against those who initiate its use. Unilateral pacifism is a stupid strategy, yes. That does not mean that it is therefore intelligent to become a bank robber.
If you have sufficiently superior force, and can apply it first, then yes, it is intelligent in a Randian society to use force to take whatever you want. With no strong social organisation to stop you, the only thing that matters is to have more force available than your target.

And no, you can't have a strong social organisation without the rest of a strong government. Police forces do not exist in isolation from the rest of the legislative and judicial system, or the taxation, civil service, and other branches of government required to fund, equip, train, and set laws for them to enforce.

Look at Somalia. It has an almost perfect Randian government, an utterly powerless one, and so it is a haven for pirates who take whatever they please from whoever they please, with no-one able to stop them.
 

JMeganSnow

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
A surprising number of people in this thread do understand the core principles of the philosophy - the core principles are just retarded.
No, they do not. The understanding demonstrated in this thread is feeble-minded at best. Let's take the worst fallacies:

"Objectivism says that helping other people is bad."

No, Objectivism says that other people don't have first claim on your life, i.e. that you are not a slave to other people's desires, wishes, whims, and needs. If you wish to help people because you like them or you enjoy spending time with them, that's fantastic. All the Objectivists I know are amazingly benevolent--myself included--because we recognize that all other human beings are, at least, a tremendous *potential* value to us even though particular individuals may fail at the bar.

Compare this with the lovely approaches of other philosophies where men are inherently depraved or congenitally defective and must purchase forgiveness from god or society by "serving" said god or society. Any *personal* ambition, pleasure, joy, love, or interest is a guilty sin to be snatched in the moments you can pry loose from taking care of the "other", and the happier/richer/better off you are, the greater you degree of guilt.

Everyone I know who truly believes that the only excuse for their continued existence is to help other people hates and resents other people as slaves hate and resent their masters--and for the same reason. Either that, or they are a horror-monster beyond all belief: someone who enjoys and is willingly complicit in his own slavery.

"Objectivism is elitist/white supremacist/whatever."

Far from being an accurate description of Objectivism, this is actually a nasty psychological confession on the part of the person making the claim. Ayn Rand's stated purpose in writing was to project the ideal man, someone who embraces and lives up to the heroic possibilities in Man--Man qua Man. Everyone who possesses a human being's unique heritage, a rational faculty, possesses the ability to demonstrate heroism of principle just as the characters in her books. What made John Galt or Howard Roark great was not that they were genius inventors or architects but that they *refused* to compromise their principles for the sake of "getting along with people" or equally idiotic goals.

The psychological confession is that some people are riddled with envy--I say envy, the actual emotion involved is far worse and uglier--and hate anyone or everyone who demonstrates any sort of ability. They don't desire to be good and live up to their potential, they just want to make sure that everyone *else* is *bad*. Their reaction on meeting a hero isn't "awesome!" but "who does he think he is?!"

Why, I ask, is seeking to become the greatest person that you can become a "white" or "elite" or whatever trait? Are you saying only white people care about being good and that you can't expect anything out of anyone else? I'd find such an insinuation insulting, and I certainly know many people of all varieties whose pursuit of excellence far outreaches my own. In fact, Ayn Rand's novels were considered controversial when they came out because she advocated careers for women at a time when women were considered incapable of such ambitions.