You people are insane....(Yet another rape thread)

[Canadamus Prime]

1: Being the victim of Rape because of your own stupidity does not take responsibility from those who did it.

Of course it doesn't. The perpetrator is still 100% responsible for his/her actions regardless of anything the victim may or may not have done. The idea that the rapist can be excused in any way is mind bogglingly stupid.

2: Being dressed like a slut/Man-whore does not entitle people to Rape.

I'm pretty sure nobody dresses with the intention of getting raped. Even those that dress provocatively for the purpose of getting laid would probably prefer some choice in the matter.

3: Rights for Rapists

They have none, 'nuff said. ...or rather they should have none.

The long and short of it is we now live in a society of excuses. It longer matters whether or not a person is guilty of a crime, it's whether or not they can be held responsible for it, which is absurd. Unless they were under some sort of bizarre mind control they should ALWAYS be held responsible.

 

[senordesol]

So many strawmen in the OP it's unreal.

Okay, I don't think anyone has come out in suppport of rape or rapists. Can we get that off the table?

Okay, good. Now, with regard to 'victim blaming'. If anyone out there has said that girl 'deserved' to get assaulted or raped (it remains unclear which happened, but is hardly the point), they are dead wrong. No one deserves that. Period. Regardless of age, gender, past or current mistakes. I think everyone agrees on that point, and anyone who disagrees is in the micro minority. So let's, just for a moment, entertain the notion that we're all rational, thinking, unmalicious people.

Okay, so while the girl did not deserve to get raped (it pains me that I feel compelled to repeat this), she did not do herself any favors. Seventeen years of age, getting black-out drunk in the midst of horny males (also in altered states) is...well... not advisable, shall we say?

Again, not excusing the actual criminals here, please don't misunderstand, but lets be real here: this party wasn't a wholsome game of pretzel poker gone awry, this was Roman style drunkeness and debauchery. This is NOT a situation where you want to wake up with some questions as to what happened to you.

So do you see what I'm saying here? Just because she was the victim, does not totally absolve her of responsibility for her circumstances. When the lamb lays down with the lion, unless it's a biblical allegory: lamb gets eaten.

If that metaphor went too far for some of you, consider this: Would you wear red in South Compton, California? (Non US: This city is notorious for gang violence) Sure, it's your right to wear whatever color you please, and if you get killed; your killer would be rightly charged with murder, but would you do it anyway? And would anyone really be shocked by what happened to you?

SSDD

 

[chadachada123]

Is that what he said?
I interpreted it more as a woman who makes a rape claim after having sex she regrets is more likely to believed by society then if a man did it. Not that society is actively telling women to claim they were raped.
Though maybe I missed a post some where.

Fucking thank you. Hopefully that will get through to him.

1) Oh so YOU don't need it, but if I suggest you could be wrong, I do? What a laugh. It's not merely a 'basic observation', it's a claim you made based off of jack shit except your own personal experience as far as I can tell.

2) And you haven't shown that society encourages it for women and fails to for men.

3) Well nothing sure sums up your evidence very well. That would be the reason I'm calling bullshit on what you're saying.

You asked me for evidence first, so I was just asking you if you have any of the converse. I'm of the opinion that neither of us could even find this 'evidence' because it's basic fucking observation of social norms around you. If you don't know how society in general treats various social situations then you aren't paying very good attention. Neither of us need evidence, we need only assert that a good chunk of people side with us *EDIT:* around us.

You're acting as if I'm making absolute, undeniable claims and not simple observations. Quit being so fucking pedantic.

 

[Skipper zammo]

snip

Fair enough.
Though I do think there is something to his original point. It's just not very relevant to this rather pointless thread.

 

[auron200004]

1. If you honestly think that your views on rape are controversial of all things, you are clearly hanging out with the wrong crowd.

2. I'm sure others have mentioned your first two strawmans.

3. I like making numbered lists.

4. It may just be because I do hang out with decent people, but your third point doesn't seem to ever come up in any situations I've heard of. And...while rapists (and I'm talking the ones who are legitimate sex offenders, not the guys who "didn't realize she was 17") are despicable human beings, they are guaranteed rights. In other words, they have a right to a trial, with evidence being brought up in that trial. If every single man (or woman) accused of rape automatically was sent to jail, then there would be absolute batshit chaos where people would accuse people they don't particularly like of rape. If a lawsuit is involved, then people would be getting free money. That's why we have a half-decent legal system.

5. You could call me a humanist, I suppose, but I believe that most criminals can be reformed in some way. Honestly, even murderers could be turned into fine members of society (it's too bad that the risk outweighs the reward often enough in their case). I can't remember exactly what country, but somewhere in Europe (probably Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc.) has prison systems entirely meant for reform that have extremely high success rates. Now, repeat offenders are a bit different...

6. I can't think of anything else for this list o' mine, so I'll leave it at that.

7. Ooh! Ooh! I thought of another one. While the people who seem to insist that it is the victim's fault (and there are some, and I'm not naming anybody on here; I'm referring to real life) are wrong, I would say that it is something that the victim must deal with the consequences of in the long run. I am not a woman (or, sadly, a particularly rape-worthy male target), so I can't speak for them. However, I do feel that if a woman dresses scantily, bends over seductively to pick up a stack of $100 dollar bills in the outskirts of East St. Louis in the early hours of the morning, proceeds to complain about how her leg is injured so she can't run, then trips into a particularly dark and secluded alleyway when she knows a lone person is watching, then she might possibly be asking for it. Can't be too sure, though.

 

[Ryan Minns]

I think I just reported two random posts by accident. Mouse was screwing up and I was clicking randomly while it was bugging out :O

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Just a small thing about that whole "dressing provocatively" issue:

I think anyone with even the smallest amount of common sense would agree it's a bad idea to go walking down a strange neighbourhood by yourself wearing a tube top and a miniskirt. If what someone wears has no say in the matter, then it shouldn't sound like such a bad idea to do something like that. Just saying, if you're going to be in a place where something is likely to happen it's just good sense to take some kind of precautions.

Not saying that it's ever the womans fault. But rape is like a forest-fire, you can't always stop it but you can sure try to prevent it. I mean sure, if you feel like you want to get piss-drunk at a frat house to the point where you pass out on the couch/bed then you have every right to do that. But unfortunately, guys are pigs and some will look for any excuse or opportunity to take advantage of you.


ehh...These rape threads always make me uncomfortable. You can never say the right thing.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

3: Rights for Rapists
Look, when this pops up, it is a little bit depressing. When we try and say that people commiting these crimes are some how "Not to blame" or "Accidental" (Pops up more than you'd expect/ want) It's a little ridiculous. These people have commited a serious crime. They are to blame one hundred percent. You cannot accidentally rape someone in the way a murder can happen accidentaly. You cannot be provoked into rape as you can with assault or murder. There is NO possibility of a rapist having done it unintentionally, not meant for it to happen, made a mistake etc. They do it because it is in their nature. Whether this is an excuse or not I cannot comment, but it takes a very sick person to gain sexual thrill over the feeling of a non-consensual partnership. When a crime like this is taken, certain liberties afforded to other criminals and victims of crime should be revoked, due to this simple fact: Rape cannot and happen accidentally.

Actually, as rape is currently legally defined in most areas of the US, it is possible to rape accidentally because rape laws do not include or account for mens rea, but impossible to murder accidentally because without mens rea, the specific intention and knowledge of what one is doing, the crime is classified as "manslaughter". When people talk about "accidental" rape, they are referring to situations in which the rapist is unaware that their victim is unable to provide legal consent and believes themselves to be engaging in consensual sexual activity. This most often happens with the involvement of alcohol, where it can sometimes be very difficult to tell the difference between a person who is a little tipsy and one who is too drunk to know what they're doing, especially as both parties are likely to be significantly impaired (which often raises the question of how we can reasonably determine who raped who, the most common legal solution to this being to say that the man is always the guilty party).

When people talk about what you describe as "rights for rapists" they are generally actually demanding rights for accused rapists. According to FBI reports, it is physically impossible for roughly 25% of the accused to have committed the rape with which they are charges, and the success social justice organizations have had in liberating people wrongly convicted of rape with modern forensic analysis and DNA evidence shows just how high the mis-identification rate can be. There are numerous recorded instances in which a person acquitted of rape in a court of law (contrary to popular belief which tends to mistakenly quote the attrition rate, the conviction rate for rape is actually fairly high, in line with that for murder)has been killed or seriously injured by crazed vigilantes, even in cases where the accusation is publicly admitted to have been falsified. There is no reasonable grounds to deny the legal rights which are the the basis of our criminal justice system to those who have been accused of rape, and a very good argument for extending the same guarantee of anonymity we offer accusers in these cases to the accused until such time as a conviction is obtained.

As for your other points, those positions are now far less common than you seem to believe. There are, however, numerous angry ideologues more than willing to misrepresent the words of their opponents as such.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

3: Rights for Rapists
Look, when this pops up, it is a little bit depressing. When we try and say that people commiting these crimes are some how "Not to blame" or "Accidental" (Pops up more than you'd expect/ want) It's a little ridiculous. These people have commited a serious crime. They are to blame one hundred percent. You cannot accidentally rape someone in the way a murder can happen accidentaly.

You can, some man raped someone while sleepwalking (essentially). He had some rare condition, and if you're wondering yes he was able to prove this in court, and yes he got off.

...Prove it, that seems unbelievable... Not saying your wrong, I'm saying like... Bwuh? SERIOUSLY?

You cannot be provoked into rape as you can with assault or murder.

Why not? It's just another form of attacking someone.

Because unlike assault or murder, you can't get angry and then decide "Rape". It just doesn't happen, and to be honest if you did, you're probably not right in the head.

[qoute]

When a crime like this is taken, certain liberties afforded to other criminals and victims of crime should be revoked, due to this simple fact: Rape cannot and happen accidentally.

Neither can theft. If you accidentally swipe someone's stuff thinking it's yours, it doesn't count as theft.

And you have to be more specific than 'certain rights'? You mean the death penalty or those god awful sex offender registries?

I meant the right to anonymity more than anything else. I heard an argument that releasing the names of rapists is apparently in-defensable, but I think it's actually more a matter for public safety than anything else. Naming and shaming rapists should be the first thing that happens.

 

[Hagi]

WHAT? You mean to tell me that rape is bad?

 

[marche45]

You know,making threads about rape isn't really helping oust the fad.
Everything that can be said,has apparently been said.

This is just hitting the decomposing carcass of a dead horse now.

 

[hazabaza1]

Also, if one's goal of provocative dress is to get raped, is it really rape?

You... you do know what rape is, correct? Just making sure. Or are you being sarcastic? Tell me you're being sarcastic.

Yes, I was being very sarcastic. I always forget it's hard to tell in text.

Ah, alright then.
Proceed, just came in to raise that issue.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Think of this, if something terrible could be prevented, why would you not take every precaution you could take? If I go out to the beach I know I'd get sunburned so I take precautions and bring a hat and sunscreen. If they didn't want rape to ever occur to them then they could have simply covered up or not get drunk, it's very simple precautions that they decided to ignored.

I think the nuance you might be missing is that sunburn is a reasonable expectation. You go out in the sun, and it's reasonable that you might be sunburnt, so taking precautions is a reasonable course of action.

There is never a case, ever, wherein there is a reasonable expectation of rape. If that is the society in which we live, then we need to fix our society, cause that is a fucked up state of affairs.

It doesn't have to be a reasonable expectation in order for it to be something that you should want to work to prevent, I'll toss out the casual example of wearing seatbelts on basically every car ride, even though you don't expect to get in a car accident.

For a more detailed example I'll pull this out. My friend was visiting Paris a couple of weeks ago, and got mugged while at the train station. Nothing really bad happened, but he got very scared and immediately left to go back home to the States.

I myself am going to be visiting Rome in the next few weeks, so as soon as we heard the news the immediate discussion my father and I had was how I might avoid going through a similar experience. So we thought of things like not going to cash machines in vulnerable places, keeping my money hidden at all times, and not carrying valuables around with me, etc.

The idea is that we want to stop rape from happening then that is what we need to do, because I myself cannot control how others act, and so I will work to prevent it from happening to me, the same as with any crime. In the specific case that is getting discussed when she drank so much that she passed out she gave up all control over the situation and removed any chance she had of stopping something bad from happening to her, be it rape, a fire, or just vomiting and choking on it.

I think it is a reasonable goal to want rape to happen less often, and if that is so then rape prevention is not just viable but necessary.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

However, most people who dress revealingly are doing it for... Fuck knows why, But I'm fairly sure they aren't attempting to get raped.

They dress like that to pickup chicks/dudes and get laid, also for attention. I see no other reason since it doesn't protect you from the weather or feel comfortable.

How about to make yourself feel good?
Because you think it looks nice?
Because it follows curret fashion?
Because you might want to look special that night?

Jesus, it's not hard.
I remember it being the general consenus of other women that ladies dress more for other ladies than for dudes.

OT: Forum's creepy obsession with rape aside, no item of clothing gives you the right to put your hands on another person without their permission. End of. Maybe that's the message we should put out more- less `don't go anywhere you could possibly be raped, don't wear this, don't do this`.

This. The message shouldn't be don't do things that you enjoy because somebody might rape you, it should be, don't rape/abuse people. Ever. Don't be that guy/gal.

And wow at the fact that people are claiming you can accidentally rape somebody. Just no. Maybe grope without realising it's unwelcome, but if it isn't clear after that, then either they ARE consenting, or they are passed out.


This forum needs less hot button topics. More spiderman.

Spoiler

 

[Zantos]

I don't think I can say anything on the topic that hasn't already been said here or in the many other threads about this. But two minor points.

1) I have been to a lot of parties involving drugs, alcohol and sex. I know many people who have been to many parties involving drugs, alcohol and sex. And not one of these parties involved anyone being sexually assaulted. Whoever said that at these sort of parties you should be prepared for that is either talking out of their arse or going to the wrong parties. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's not exactly commonplace.

2) Murder can't be accidental. It requires malice, you can't accidentally plan to murder someone then go out and do it. Manslaughter, that can be accidental.

 

[xPixelatedx]

If you put on a colorful sign like Bruce Willis did at the start of Die Hard 3, and walk into a black neighborhood known for violent crimes and gang activity, you don't deserve to die, no... but it's probably going to happen. Everyone knows it's going to happen; you know it's going to happen beforehand to, regardless of how 'politically incorrect' it is to say it.

When it comes to sexual assault, I certainly cannot say all cases are predictable and avoidable, but some could have been avoided, regardless of how flamboyant you think everyone has a right to dress. Walking into places full of individuals with little to no sense of morality (particularly if they are people known for violence), and doing so basically naked, is probably also going to elicit a predictable outcome. No one deserves that, and I don't necessarily think that's the message people were trying to convey. But was it predictable? Should the victim have known better for those particular circumstances? Yes.

 

[Gilhelmi]

snip
And hope to god this fad ends soon...

Sadly, stupidity is not a fad but eternal. Through a study of history, every culture/believe(that includes you atheists), in every corner of the world, has fallen due too the ineptitude of its culture.

The only hope left is that people like you and me, who still posses common sense, can stop the waves of stupidity. The good news is that it has happened in the past, so it can happen again. America was founded on enlightenment. A couple others examples, but you get the point.

Only in our modern era, WITH THE POWER OF THE NET, can we fight the plague of stupid. With the words of truth, with the arguments of reason. Those who think will rise again.

Viva la Revolution

(I know a little crazy, I got excited)

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

1: Being the victim of Rape because of your own stupidity does not take responsibility from those who did it.

2: Being dressed like a slut/Man-whore does not entitle people to Rape.

These most often refer to date-rape charges that are blown out of proportion on all sides. The amount of women who actually file date-rape charges for a drunken mistake isn't as large as people would believe and the amount of people referring to actual rape when this happens is even smaller. Usually the reaction is appropriate to date-rape.

3: Rights for Rapists

It's called prison and every criminal faces it. There's also the sex offenders register and other punishments in place for rapists. Some rights cannot ever be taken though.

 

[TheNamlessGuy]

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[TheNamlessGuy]

DELETED