You people are insane....(Yet another rape thread)

[Trippy Turtle]

If someone has sex with you when you have clearly stated you don't want it, it is rape.
Its not that hard to understand.
If you willingly agree to sex then it is not rape.
If you were drunk and said yes then you still willingly agreed. Its nobody elses fault you got drunk. A drink driver wouldn't get off.

 

[chadachada123]

If someone has sex with you when you have clearly stated you don't want it, it is rape.
Its not that hard to understand.
If you willingly agree to sex then it is not rape.
If you were drunk and said yes then you still willingly agreed. Its nobody elses fault you got drunk. A drink driver wouldn't get off.

While I personally agree with you, much of the Escapist community would probably disagree with the last part about drunk sex.

I tend to point out the double standard that exists in many places where if a girl is drunk but the guy isn't, he's expected to turn down her requests and even possibly push her off of him. However, if a guy is drunk and the girl isn't, he's a drunk pig and is sexually harassing her, and she's even allowed to have sex with him without him being considered a victim.

 

[Darkmantle]

Snip

I don't need evidence about basic observations of society. My basic observations ARE my evidence, and are not necessarily the same as yours. No evidence is needed.

You don't seem to know what the words basic observation mean. Basic observation would be what you directly observe. You've jumped off of that into extrapolating it which is no longer merely an observation. Is that simple enough to understand?

Oh look, now you're conflating your idiotic bullshit with ALL things about how society views male victims. Newsflash: You were way more specific than that. Why the hell are you backing off of the very specific claim I asked for proof of and going to a more general one? It's fucking dishonest.

You disagree with me about how society feels about males that percieve themselves as victims about drunk-regretful sex. You just said so. You disagree with me about how society treats male victims.

IN ONE INSTANCE. Furthermore, I didn't necessarily even say you were wrong about the males. I was asking you to prove there was a double standard. Which could also mean I don't fucking think you got the part about the females right.

Are you sure you're not trolling? I feel like it's either that or you seriously don't understand burden of proof (and when it's not needed) and how basic humans interact with each other.

More like you don't understand what a basic observation is.

...Wow. For the first time ever on any forum, ever, I am completely at a loss for what to say. I have no response to possibly give.

You are so incredibly wrong that words escape me. I hope you are proud of at least that. I'm still trying to think of things beyond mental illness that could possibly explain this complete breakdown of simple communication.

Perhaps you're foreign, and things like "observation" mean something completely different to you? In either case, we clearly are not talking about the same things, so I shall have to take my leave.

As for as the OP goes, I still insist that double standards exist in the eyes of drunk sex 'victims,' and will continue to fight for equality as opposed to denying that double standards exist and arguing about it.

I contend that they are easy to see in my area based on my human interactions with others.

Just do what I did, stop replying to him. He comes in very aggressive and unreasonable, and makes no effort to have an actual discussion. Even when I agree with him I find his discussion distasteful.

And you know what, we have evidence on this very forum!

here's one! "The woman was hot so it's not statutory rape!"
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.305166-Poll-Female-babysitter-charged-for-having-sex-with-14-year-old-boy#12252158

same deal here
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.339735-Female-babysitters-having-sex-with-teenaged-males#13742619

I was looking for some older threads I was in where people were literally saying that anyone who had sex with a girl while she was drunk was a rapist, regardless if the "perp" was also drunk and they both consented. I argued, wouldn't it be mutual rape then? since neither party could give consent because they were drunk, did they rape each other? The responses I got basically boiled down to "a man can't be raped".

so there's two examples of double standards towards male victims. Enjoy.

 

[Nantucket_v1legacy]

I think it is extremely sad that some people are defending these monsters. Statistics can go to hell. Rape is worse than murder because you live with that horror and it affects your normal everyday life. When you're dead you're dead - you're not haunted and suspicious.

Murder is obviously worse than rape.
A rape victim can still enjoy their favourite foods, listen to their favourite music, spend time with friends and family...

If Murder isn't so bad, because the victim no longer suffers, then you'd think that a Rapist who also kills the victim should get a lighter sentence, for ending the suffering, despite having committed an additional, worse, crime?

And that's saying nothing of the impact on the family.

I just know I would rather die than be raped.

 

[The Tibballs]

Think of this, if something terrible could be prevented, why would you not take every precaution you could take? If I go out to the beach I know I'd get sunburned so I take precautions and bring a hat and sunscreen. If they didn't want rape to ever occur to them then they could have simply covered up or not get drunk, it's very simple precautions that they decided to ignored.
Now about "Being raped due to your own stupidity does not take responsibility from those who did it". You are absolutely right, but does that mean the victim takes no responsibility for their actions? Could any girl theoretically dress up as a slut, get raped then sue for millions just like that? free cash forever? we have to look at each case from both sides not immediately damn the offender.

The way I understand your argument, you're saying that if a victim doesn't take every precaution then it's partly their own fault?? Is that right??
Because to me that's like saying the students killed at the Columbine high school massacre were partly to blame, as school shootings have happened before or that that the Dark Knight Rises killings were the victims fault because they left their homes when other people had been victims of gun crime.

They dress like that to pickup chicks/dudes and get laid, also for attention. I see no other reason since it doesn't protect you from the weather or feel comfortable.

Vying for the attention of the opposite sex/others does not give others the right to take away your right/power to choose with whom you have sex... EVER.

 

[Moderated]

What about statutory rape? You can do that accidentally.

 

[The Tibballs]

Also here are some Pro Tips:

http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/rape-prevention-tips/

 

[chadachada123]

I think it is extremely sad that some people are defending these monsters. Statistics can go to hell. Rape is worse than murder because you live with that horror and it affects your normal everyday life. When you're dead you're dead - you're not haunted and suspicious.

Murder is obviously worse than rape.
A rape victim can still enjoy their favourite foods, listen to their favourite music, spend time with friends and family...

If Murder isn't so bad, because the victim no longer suffers, then you'd think that a Rapist who also kills the victim should get a lighter sentence, for ending the suffering, despite having committed an additional, worse, crime?

And that's saying nothing of the impact on the family.

I just know I would rather die than be raped.

Honestly, I wouldn't be very traumatized by being raped, even forcefully. As long as I'm not additionally tortured (like, say, by getting one of my bones broken), the act of being penetrated against my will doesn't bother me that much at all. I'd much prefer that to death or, say, being swindled out of thousands of dollars.

Only way it could traumatize me is if a family member did it. Luckily, I'm old enough that if one DID try it on me, they'd get the shit beaten out of them.

Just do what I did, stop replying to him. He comes in very aggressive and unreasonable, and makes no effort to have an actual discussion. Even when I agree with him I find his discussion distasteful.

And you know what, we have evidence on this very forum!

here's one! "The woman was hot so it's not statutory rape!"
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.305166-Poll-Female-babysitter-charged-for-having-sex-with-14-year-old-boy#12252158

same deal here
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.339735-Female-babysitters-having-sex-with-teenaged-males#13742619

I was looking for some older threads I was in where people were literally saying that anyone who had sex with a girl while she was drunk was a rapist, regardless if the "perp" was also drunk and they both consented. I argued, wouldn't it be mutual rape then? since neither party could give consent because they were drunk, did they rape each other? The responses I got basically boiled down to "a man can't be raped".

so there's two examples of double standards towards male victims. Enjoy.

Well thank you kindly. Glad (but also saddened) to see I'm not the only one that has been left confused by his positing.

 

[Keoul]

snip

what I'm TRYING to say is that it could have been easily prevented, so WHY wouldn't they want to take every precaution against something as SERIOUS and TRAUMATIC as rape?

I don't recall once saying it was their fault, just that they were negligent and this should be taken into account in the court, after all this could be abused by individuals. I don't recall the case exactly but a sport star was sent to jail after being accused of raping a girl, only years later was SHE proven guilty, if people just gave the guilty verdict to every accused individual every single man in the world would end up in jail.

Now on to your "examples of similar situations"

Because to me that's like the students killed at the Columbine high school massacre were partly to blame, as school shootings have happened before

The killers were not strangers and the students did not intoxicate themselves so they couldn't get away, they took enough precautions and the killing was spontaneous and unavoidable.

the Dark Knight Rises killings were the victims fault because they left their homes when other people had been victims of gun crime.

Again, they left their homes to a presumably safe environment where the killings were spontaneous and unexpected.

There's forced rape then drunken rape where the individual give consent but while drunk, and when sober they realize what they've done and call it rape. Most of my points refer to the SECOND one. The former being unavoidable (unless you count avoiding sleazy areas but I bet everyone does that) the latter occurring due to negligence on the victims part, and as such this should be taken into account when the case is brought to court.

Allow me to reiterate the "purpose" of my posts, I'm trying to address issues that can lead to rape and how it can be prevented, and how both sides MUST be heard for it to be a fair trial.

EDIT: crap I may have been unconsciously referring this to another thread, I've changed some details of this post to get rid of them.

 

[Nantucket_v1legacy]

I think it is extremely sad that some people are defending these monsters. Statistics can go to hell. Rape is worse than murder because you live with that horror and it affects your normal everyday life. When you're dead you're dead - you're not haunted and suspicious.

Murder is obviously worse than rape.
A rape victim can still enjoy their favourite foods, listen to their favourite music, spend time with friends and family...

If Murder isn't so bad, because the victim no longer suffers, then you'd think that a Rapist who also kills the victim should get a lighter sentence, for ending the suffering, despite having committed an additional, worse, crime?

And that's saying nothing of the impact on the family.

I just know I would rather die than be raped.

Honestly, I wouldn't be very traumatized by being raped, even forcefully. As long as I'm not additionally tortured (like, say, by getting one of my bones broken), the act of being penetrated against my will doesn't bother me that much at all. I'd much prefer that to death or, say, being swindled out of thousands of dollars.

Only way it could traumatize me is if a family member did it. Luckily, I'm old enough that if one DID try it on me, they'd get the shit beaten out of them.

I can see what you're saying but for me, sex is one thing you cannot take from me.
I'm one of those people that make the man wait for months until I know we have enough respect and love for each other. Sex is the most intimate you can be with a person - it really is becoming one and exposing all. There is no greater trust.

So for someone to just snatch that feeling, to twist it into their own sick pleasure at your expense makes my stomach churn.

I would much rather die putting up a fight.

 

[chadachada123]

Honestly, I wouldn't be very traumatized by being raped, even forcefully. As long as I'm not additionally tortured (like, say, by getting one of my bones broken), the act of being penetrated against my will doesn't bother me that much at all. I'd much prefer that to death or, say, being swindled out of thousands of dollars.

Only way it could traumatize me is if a family member did it. Luckily, I'm old enough that if one DID try it on me, they'd get the shit beaten out of them.

I can see what you're saying but for me, sex is one thing you cannot take from me.
I'm one of those people that make the man wait for months until I know we have enough respect and love for each other. Sex is the most intimate you can be with a person - it really is becoming one and exposing all. There is no greater trust.

So for someone to just snatch that feeling, to twist it into their own sick pleasure at your expense makes my stomach churn.

I would much rather die putting up a fight.

You've got spunk, kid, I'll give you that. I'm a fighter, too, but am far more possessive of material goods and others than I am of myself. Quite understandable difference of opinion, and something that I guess I'm lucky(?) to have. Hell, I don't even fear death that much either.

 

[Daveman]

So... rape is wrong you say.

Controversial but I like it.

 

[The Tibballs]

what I'm TRYING to say is that it could have been easily prevented, so WHY wouldn't they want to take every precaution against something as SERIOUS and TRAUMATIC as rape?

What like staying home?

I don't recall once saying it was their fault, just that they were negligent and this should be taken into account in the court, after all this could be abused by individuals. I don't recall the case exactly but a sport star was sent to jail after being accused of raping a girl, only years later was SHE proven guilty, if people just gave the guilty verdict to every accused individual every single man in the world would end up in jail.

I'm not saying that someone accused of rape is automatically guilty, but that's why we have a legal system to sort out that side of things.

Again, they left their homes to a presumably safe environment where the killings were spontaneous and unexpected.

"presumably safe environment" like catching a train home from school? or walking to a friends house? or perhaps a party at which you decide to drink??

The "Sexual assault" (which is different from rape by the way) incident however, the girl was intoxicated, at a party full of strangers, wearing revealing clothes. She took no precautions what so ever, just a little less drinking and she would have been sober enough to scream and scare the guys off (or more likely have the 2 guys thrown out by angry party goers).

I'm trying to address issues that can lead to rape and how it can be prevented.

"wearing revealing clothes" aka a rape me sign?

The only precaution she or anyone for that matter should need to take is been a fucking human being.

Also the best way to prevent rape is not to rape people. :/

One more thing 73% of all rape are perpetrated by friends and family & 40% also occur in the victims home.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Ugh, society has forced me into making a thread about rape, through stupid opinions and idiotic conclusions. Without further ado, lets cast the shit out of some aspersions; RE: Victims have themselves to blame and defending rapists.

1: Being the victim of Rape because of your own stupidity does not take responsibility from those who did it.


2: Being dressed like a slut/Man-whore does not entitle people to Rape.

No one thinks this. Only a tiny minority. Please link several cases where this happened to have any validity and to prove you're not setting up straw men.

Ill tackle the OBVIOUS straw man anyway (seriously WHO thinks this) and say you've misinterpreted a common opinion.

The RISK opinion. Now ill be straight with you. Women SHOULD be able to dress in underwear and run through deprived areas screaming "IM SO HOT AND ALONE!" but they cant. No im serious i think in an ideal world a woman should have freedom to do this and behave however she wants. I should also have the freedom to leave my car unlocked and my house windows open without getting robbed. But we don't live in this world. If i leave a window open and im robbed is it my fault? Of course not. In the same way its NEVER a woman's fault. But you have to consider that risk factors can be minimized. Not to try and excuse the rapist but to protect the woman. Its about staying safe. And honestly id rather a woman complained about how shes encouraged to stay with people and not wander off when dressed enticingly than complained about how she was raped.

Its a sad truth. Crimes happen. They SHOULDNT and the perps deserve full wrath of the law but they do. I cant walk the short route home from my girlfriends ever again since i was robbed blind the first time i tried it (she lives in a kinda rough area). I want to. I should be able to. But it isnt safe. And i need to try my best to minimize risk. Like women should. Thieves and rapists suck but they exist and as such we need to try and help people avoid them rather than wish wish wish they never existed to begin with. I hold the view that women should dress however they want but watch how drunk they get and always stay in a group since its safest for them. Rape sucks. But we live in a world where it exists and we cant possibly eliminate it all all the time. So people need to be safe. Im sad when a lone woman is raped because, even though its not her fault, i think sadly about how risk factors could have been avoided to prevent that filth from ever getting near her. Victim blaming and telling the victim to minimize risk are different things. I minimize risk on my car to stop it from being stolen. If its stolen it isnt my fault.

 

[DioWallachia]

Not every rapist is some slavering monster plotting and waiting in the shadows for their next unsuspecting victim. Some of them are just...fucking stupid. Add alcohol into the mix and some end up doing things they never intended to do or even thought they were doing at the time. "Wait, what? I thought she was totally into it..." Hence why it's especially critical for them to know they need to get explicit consent.

Not that this excuses them in any way. Just sayin'.

Never understood how the "i was drunk, it wasnt my fault" could hold in ANY court. He may not be able to think properly while drunk but he DID choose to BE drunk in the first place, he deliverately knew that being drunk will put him in a state that he wont be responsible for his actions and for that he should be punished.

That would be the same as saying "I used that rock in that > direction but after it left my hand, it is not my responsability but it is for the laws of physics and the person that just HAPPENED to be in its way"

 

[StBishop]

Really? cause last I checked she was sexually assaulted, not raped. You do fully realize those are not the same things, right?

That would go a long way to explaining why you have trouble differentiating between how I can say THIS girl has part of the blame to shoulder and still not justifying rape.

This is why I say you have no need to quote me. You dont understand what I am saying, and applying your own context and meaning to it.

This is less a case of apples and oranges than it is a case of Fiji apples vs. Gala apples. No, they aren't the same, but the difference is one of extent, and in the meantime you are still trying to defend the indefensible.

You heard it here first people, battery is now murder and anyone who's been groped has lost their virginity.

 

[Keoul]

What like staying home?

Have a more open mind, they could avoid getting so drunk they pass out, wear less revealing clothes, have parties with closer friends instead of strangers, get a rape whistle, etc

"presumably safe environment" like catching a train home from school? or walking to a friends house? or perhaps a party at which you decide to drink??

The Cinema/Theater was a closed location with patrols(not police, just the guards checking for tickets and people still on phones) and people who aren't focused on everyone around them so I'd say it was fair for people to assume it was safe. Why would your examples not be a safe place? I've only said a party, at a house full of strangers (and some friends) is a unsafe environment especially to get drunk. Note I said drunk not drink.

"wearing revealing clothes" aka a rape me sign?
The only precaution she or anyone for that matter should need to take is been a fucking human being.
Also the best way to prevent rape is not to rape people. :/
One more thing 73% of all rape are perpetrated by friends and family & 40% also occur in the victims home.

Really going to bring that up? I'm beginning to suspect you have very stereotyped views towards my opinions. I've never said wearing revealing clothes was was a "rape me sign" only that it draws attention, often unwanted attention such as those from rapists.
There are plenty of precautions people can take to avoid rape such as rape whistles and those I listed above. Also who is "she"? "they" seems like a more appropriate term unless you were thinking of some rape case while you were writing this.
The bolded sentence you made is just silly, rapists won't stop and think "you know what maybe I can prevent rape by not raping people", the victims themselves have to prevent it you can't expect a murderer to stop murdering halfway can you?
And tell me, what percentage of these victims were underage children who literally have no way or preventing rape?

 

[StBishop]

You heard it here first people, battery is now murder and anyone who's been groped has lost their virginity.

Congratulations for failing at reading comprehension. Well done. Your parents must be proud.

My parents are very proud.