Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

Gergar12

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Kind of back on topic, but considering the whole "thousand/tens of thousands of women getting exploited via spy cam" thing, the Nth room "literally hundreds of women and kids getting blackmailed and raped, footage sold to tens of thousands via crypto currency" thing, setting your men's rights protest at the same site as protests against those to complain about problems *not caused by feminism* is...I mean, what the fuck?

Like, military conscription? Sure, either make it equal or, better, get rid of it entirely. But what about the rest? Bar women from jobs to reduce competition, because somehow women don't also need money to live? Stop girls from going to school? How supervillain are we going here?
The argument they are making is that there shouldn't be special female colleges with sought after degrees like law, and pharmacy when there is no male equivalent and two there are waitlists, and test quotas for sought after degrees and colleges, no government programs or affirmative action for jobs because women have a more favorable environment with having more time to study for tests, more women in college in South Korea, etc. Women shoudl basically compete on equal ground with men.

It's the more equity vs equality thing. Which I don't think no society is ready for. To really look at equity you would need to look at the riches of the rich(In South Korea, and the US), and the rich will likley respond in reactionary ways.

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I don't know why they don't just do affimative action but for the poor.
 

Silvanus

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The third wave wanted more women in companies, wanted an equal rights amendment, and affirmative action which all need corporate America's approval. They weren't able to close the wage gap, but got more women in the workplace, and were close to getting ERA. It got more women in government as well, but they weren't all democrats.

Also, I am pretty sure there were marches across the planet due to the women's march. They may have been smaller than the US ones, but it was a pretty big thing in the western world, and in Latin America.
There were marches across the planet, yes. But the vast majority of attendees were in the US, and no surprise there, because it was integrally connected to the inauguration of Trump. The women's march is absolutely not connected to any particular "wave". Attendees had nothing in common except women's rights in general and opposition to Trump.

The gains of pay equality and equality in recruitment require the eventual acquiescence of corporations. But there is no alliance there. Corporations will eventually, begrudgingly adopt measures to address these issues if society at large has already recognised that it needs to address them. This is largely what happened.

And the measures of corporations are not tied at all to any particular "wave".

It's the same thing with the teacher's union, it should be bipartisan, but it became mostly dem-dominated. I agree with the exclusion of anti-abortion people in the women's march, but they should have included liberal Jewish women as well.
The teacher's union is mostly dem-dominated because the Republican Party is viscerally hostile to both unionism and public expenditure. It's inevitable, when one party is antithetical to your position and philosophy.

And Jewish people did attend the women's march... I don't actually know where you're getting this stuff about it being exclusive of Jewish women from.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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I would like to point out that mandatory military service for men and not women isn't "pro-feminist" and actually goes against the basic tenents of feminism, which is equality between men and women.

Saying that Korean men hate feminism because of mandatory military service actually doesn't make any sense, because a society that was pro-feminism would not have sex/gender-based mandatory military service, and would have military service for both men and women (sort of like how the IDF does it).
Hasn't stopped supposedly feminist groups opposing the draft for women in other countries though.
 

Terminal Blue

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Hasn't stopped supposedly feminist groups opposing the draft for women in other countries though.
Imagine supporting a draft.

What kind of a literal bootlicker do you have to be to support the idea of forcing anyone into the army against their will.

But I think if there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that men will tolerate any level of abuse provided its delivered by a man, because being abused by a man allows men to fantasize that they too might be in a position to abuse other men one day.
Oh right, thanks me from yesterday..
 
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Satinavian

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Imagine supporting a draft.

What kind of a literal bootlicker do you have to be to support the idea of forcing anyone into the army against their will.
Now i am glad we don't have the draft now. Because we live in a peaceful time without any remotely realistic short term scenario that would require mass mobilisation. It would be folly to waste some of everyones most productive lifetime just for preparedness. Also i was drafted myself and hated it.

But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help. Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying. If anything it is even more equal because everyone has to do the same time. And yes, i would support women to be drafted as well in any situation that is volatile enough to restart drafting.
 

Cheetodust

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Now i am glad we don't have the draft now. Because we live in a peaceful time without any remotely realistic short term scenario that would require mass mobilisation. It would be folly to waste some of everyones most productive lifetime just for preparedness. Also i was drafted myself and hated it.

But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help. Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying. If anything it is even more equal because everyone has to do the same time. And yes, i would support women to be drafted as well in any situation that is volatile enough to restart drafting.
Absoufuckinglutely not. My government has gone to great lengths to make it impossible for my generation to own a house, have actively fought against any measures that might help, has openly mocked anyone below the living wage by saying 60k a year would be a low salary, has spent the last 2 years having parties that violate covid restrictions then getting the restrictions rewritten. Our deputy PM who will be PM this year is currently under criminal investigation for leaking confidential documents. They openly created a cartel to prevent any other parties gaining power. They have filled high ranking positions with pals and let the salaried
S skyrocket, the head of the HSE, one of the worst healthcare systems in Europe, earns over 400k a year not including expenses. There is no fucking way I'm dying for a country that barely allows me to exist in it.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help. Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying. If anything it is even more equal because everyone has to do the same time. And yes, i would support women to be drafted as well in any situation that is volatile enough to restart drafting.
While exceptions could possibly be made for apocalypse scenarios, a halfway competent and equipped opposing military would make using conscripts an exercise in inflating casualty lists. Modern war just doesn't work that way.

Unfortunately, the only halfway competent way to use conscript *is* the preparedness model, and it sucks ass
 

Gordon_4

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Now i am glad we don't have the draft now. Because we live in a peaceful time without any remotely realistic short term scenario that would require mass mobilisation. It would be folly to waste some of everyones most productive lifetime just for preparedness. Also i was drafted myself and hated it.

But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help. Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying. If anything it is even more equal because everyone has to do the same time. And yes, i would support women to be drafted as well in any situation that is volatile enough to restart drafting.
I don’t run the risk of an IED shredding my legs or an artillery barrage reducing me to salsa when I pay my taxes. I understand the draft is the blood part of the ‘blood and treasure’ of a nation, but considering how little return I’m getting for the treasure I already give……well frankly the fucking Decepticons would need to invade before I considered giving my government a payment of blood.
 

Terminal Blue

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But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help.
A draft isn't instituted by by a society, it's instituted by a state. There's a subtle but very important difference between those two things. Namely, a state is an institution separate from its citizens, a society is made up of those citizens.

Hence, a state is fully capable of using armed force to defend itself against its own citizens. Declaring that a state has an intrinsic right, let alone a duty, to defend itself is an extremely dangerous road.

A state, or for that matter a society, that cannot inspire the desire in its citizens to defend it without coercing them is not worthy of prolonging its own existence.
 
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gorfias

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Dwarvenhobble

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Imagine supporting a draft.

What kind of a literal bootlicker do you have to be to support the idea of forcing anyone into the army against their will.
Except that they don't want the whole draft abolished and aren't fighting to stop men being able to be drafted.
 

CM156

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Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying.
It is extremely different in fundamental ways. I'm not risking my life and limb against my will by paying taxes.
I understand that in some cases, small nations with belligerent neighbors, such as Finland, may want every adult man to have at least some military training. But that, to my mind, seems to be more from tradition than any realistic assessment of how well conscripts perform against professional armies.
My preference is zero conscription. But if a nation refuses to get rid of it, then it shouldn't exempt people based on their sex.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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But in general i do support a draft. It is the duty of a society to defend itself and the duty of the citicens to help. Draft is morally not much different from taxpaying. If anything it is even more equal because everyone has to do the same time. And yes, i would support women to be drafted as well in any situation that is volatile enough to restart drafting.
What about any modern military makes you think it would run better by being filled with a whole bunch of people who don't want to be there? We're no longer in the times where you just threw a rifle into someone's arms and told them to take that hill or you'd shoot them yourself.
 

Terminal Blue

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Except that they don't want the whole draft abolished and aren't fighting to stop men being able to be drafted.
Who is they?

I'm going to be real here, any concern I have for the draft is fundamentally fairly abstract. My country ended conscription nearly 60 years ago. The last time anyone was conscripted here, a woman legally couldn't open a bank account in their own name and spousal rape wasn't recognized as a crime.

I did meet one guy who was conscripted into the IDF and was extremely traumatized by some of the things he saw, but less because he suffered personal injury or threat than because of the things he saw his fellow soldiers do to civilians. See, it turns out that being a civilian in a war zone isn't a safe fun time for the whole family. The Korean war, the reason why South Korea still has conscription, killed several times more civilians than soldiers, and both sides in that war carried out war crimes against the civilian population.

But yeah, I felt very bad for that guy. He was put into a situation he never volunteered for and was damaged for life. But if he couldn't stop the draft, what realistic chance do you think I have?

It wasn't feminists who drafted him, it wasn't feminists who refused to campaign against the draft. Even in Israel, which has an integrated military, it was overwhelmingly men, because men are overrepresented in positions of authority, and especially overrepresented within the military. Men decide that the draft is necessary. How are feminists supposed to "fight to stop men being drafted" against the men responsible (who probably care very little for what feminists think because they're men). It's not like most men are fighting to stop it themselves.

What have you done to fight against men being drafted? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the answer is "nothing", because you don't actually care. Most men don't actually care. Most men, need I say it again, are perfectly willing to endure any level of abuse by other men if it provides them with the slimmest hope of being able to abuse someone else one day. The simple fact is that you've put far more energy into being mad about women supposedly not fighting to stop the draft than you ever have fighting to stop the draft yourself. That's really sad.

You've probably read about the KPop stuff. They're idealizing effeminate, infantalized, men.
So what?

I think some of you went through the cishet brainwashing camp a bit too much. What you're describing is something that exists in "western" culture too, and has for a long time. Glam rock, hair metal, boy bands made up entirely of twinks, post-punk, goth, the new romantics. It exists because the static set of character traits we sometimes refer to as femininity are attractive. Femininity is nice. It's pretty to look at, and it denotes a degree of physical and/or emotional openness and availability that masculinity does not. Being attracted to masculinity takes work, it's work a lot of people (including myself) end up enjoying, but it's a cultivated taste like being into BDSM or Dark Souls.

I can't help but wonder what is different here, because I can't escape the uncomfortable possibility that men in K-pop bands are being read as more effeminate than their white counterparts simply because they're Asian, and that's getting kinda racist..
 
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Trunkage

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Except that they don't want the whole draft abolished and aren't fighting to stop men being able to be drafted.
You're talking about Christian women. Who are generally against feminism and the ERA. They're the women who go around pretending that women need to be protected all the time.
 

Trunkage

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What about any modern military makes you think it would run better by being filled with a whole bunch of people who don't want to be there? We're no longer in the times where you just threw a rifle into someone's arms and told them to take that hill or you'd shoot them yourself.
Some people did not learn the lesson of the Somme
 

Satinavian

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What about any modern military makes you think it would run better by being filled with a whole bunch of people who don't want to be there? We're no longer in the times where you just threw a rifle into someone's arms and told them to take that hill or you'd shoot them yourself.
Not sure.

I would rather say that none of the more powerful countries have had a war threatening their existence since the second world war. It was all just rather limited expeditions that could be (or in some cases would have been) better handled without drafties.

But looking at quite nasty wars between smaller countries, the picture shifts. The Iran-Iraq war e.g. had lots of people who just got a rifle and draftee level education or even less. They played a major role.
And even for the big players, if you actually look at the WWIII plans from the end of the Cold War, those still rely on massive drafted armies and i wouldn't be surprised at all if the current, still secret WWIII plans Nato or China have in their files still do.


I already wrote that i think the current political situation makes draft seem superflous here. Because there is no all out existential war on the horizon, no credible threat to the country itself, nothing remotely warranting full mobilisation.
If it is only limited interventions, well, professional soldiers can handle those well enough.

I can't help but wonder what is different here, because I can't escape the uncomfortable possibility that men in K-pop bands are being read as more effeminate than their white counterparts simply because they're Asian, and that's getting kinda racist..
Not really. K-pop is not big enough outside Asia that people care much about it. Most of those loud complaints against K-pop boys being too feminine seem to specifically come from China where it is now the party line. Either because Xi really doesn't like them or because they are just such a convenient scapegoat.
 
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Agema

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But looking at quite nasty wars between smaller countries, the picture shifts. The Iran-Iraq war e.g. had lots of people who just got a rifle and draftee level education or even less. They played a major role.
As cannon fodder?

Conscripts have always tended to fare poorly against professionals. At best, as the saying goes (often attributed to Stalin, probably wrongly), "Quantity has a quality of its own". Although early relevant quotations (often attributed to Napoleon, definitely wrongly) "Providence usually favours the big battalions against the small". In the case of the latter, and highly relevant, Voltaire pointed out that providence tends to favour the battalion that shoots best.