Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

Trunkage

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Sounds rather like modern feminism and there whole "It's time for men to step up and make it safe for women to walk the streets alone at night". As though men are meant to be out there like Batman patrolling the night to make sure nothing happens to any woman and suggesting self defence training is viewed as some heinous act because "It's men who attack or rape women in the night it should be men fixing it" as though somehow men are meant to be there to protect women all the time and the people attacking them don't deliberately operate in areas where the footfall is very sparse so they're less likely to be disturbed & stopped.
Wait... do you think females should be fixing the 'rape problem'?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So, you've provided a bunch of examples of semi-notable people who acted like shitheads... and this somehow means to you that we can't call out aggressive or sexist behaviour from our peers? How does that even follow or have any relevance?
No it depends entirely on the behaviour but to understand there's a line between aggressive or sexist behaviour and being human being who aren't super puritanical in relation to sex and sexuality.
I mean it's somewhat ironic the "Male Feminist ally" types on twitter tend to be the ones actually harming women and for all their "Men shouldn't be aggressive and you shouldn't let out any anger of aggression" they're some of the most consistently passive aggressive people there are about.


Please don't, because it's a meaningless mess so far.
No really when it's part of a very observable trend as to where the actual problems are coming from in the modern world.


Ok. But when women talk about men helping to make the streets safe, they're not fucking talking about men just talking to one another, are they?

They're talking about the aggressive, sexist behaviour directed at women. Which is extremely common, and which lots of men currently just ignore/ laugh along with.
Do you mean PUAs or something because I have no clue what you're on about here in terms of shit going on because it's really not normalised most places. Maybe it's in some clubs but none I've ever been to have been like that out of the ones I've been to (Admittedly I've only been to 14 places)
 

Dwarvenhobble

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OK so you found... a YouTuber. I'm not at all surprised that your understanding of this topic comes from random internet people rather than actual analyses.

Suffice it to say that plenty of proper in-depth research has shown it to be generally larger than that.
Pakman is a left wing independent journalist lol. He's literally been doing a show on youtube for years with a teach backing him up.

Plenty of the research bandied round in Gender studies circles has flaws. The general ones work out to normally be:

Equating pay totals not including hours worked
Equating positions that aren't equal as equal. E.G. Warehouse repair technician and till operator
Equating different careers entirely not like for like


Exactly as I said: large corporations are not really allies in any meaningful sense.
and yet people keep forgetting that and fawning over stuff like Fearless Girl and other moves designed just to look good in the public eye and pull headlines and eyes away from bullshit they're doing.
 

Silvanus

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No it depends entirely on the behaviour but to understand there's a line between aggressive or sexist behaviour and being human being who aren't super puritanical in relation to sex and sexuality.
Uh-huh, obviously. And people saying men should make the streets at night safer refer to the former.

Because "not being isn't super puritanical" isn't a danger to anyone at night. In fact, unless you actually approach a woman and talk about it, they're not even going to know what your beliefs about sex are. So it's completely obvious that the phrase refers to aggressive/ sexist behaviour.


I mean it's somewhat ironic the "Male Feminist ally" types on twitter tend to be the ones actually harming women and for all their "Men shouldn't be aggressive and you shouldn't let out any anger of aggression" they're some of the most consistently passive aggressive people there are about.
Yep, lots of them are twats.

Not as if it's exclusive to them. A lot of this behaviour is from drunken "lad" types, or superiority-complex inner city rich knobheads, or from dirty old men hanging around pubs and city centres, from my experience.

Do you mean PUAs or something because I have no clue what you're on about here in terms of shit going on because it's really not normalised most places. Maybe it's in some clubs but none I've ever been to have been like that out of the ones I've been to (Admittedly I've only been to 14 places)
I mean exceptionally common behaviour that women have to put up with constantly. Most women I know from work-- more than half, and I work in the centre of London-- have been catcalled, followed at night, touched inappropriately by strangers, or randomly propositioned by random men three times their age. And I've seen it happen around numerous pubs and clubs.

I would hazard a guess that you have "no clue" because you don't experience it personally yourself, and you wouldn't listen if people who did experience it told you.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Wait... do you think females should be fixing the 'rape problem'?
Well yes. Men aren't going to fix this alone. As I said it's not reasonable to expect all men to be out like Batman watching everywhere just in case a woman decides she wants to go on a night out, get blind drunk them walk home alone through an empty park with little to no lighting up.

Prevention I'd say in this case is far better then a cure (mostly because the only cure is brain chips for all men or literally kill all of us men just to make sure or that crackpot feminist plan of killing 80% of the male population to keep the remaining 20 as breeding stock or something).

Prevention:
Push the idea of looking out for one another in your friend group
Push the idea of not getting blind drunk unless you can really trust the friends you're out with to look after you.
Push the idea of testing to make sure drinks aren't spiked and push for the use of anti spiking stoppers etc
Push having a plan, if you get split up you plan to meet somewhere.
Push the idea of carrying rape alarms and or rape inc
Push the idea of not walking home alone through unlit or dangerous areas
Push the idea of self defence classes so if anyone tries that women can break their attackers arm or at least do some damage to put them off.


Stopping the cycle:
Push the idea of going to the police if something happens (something some feminist groups etc were saying not to do before, see Suey Park), none of this "Oh but he seems like a good guy and helps the progressive cause so much and maybe I shouldn't come forward" stuff either. This helps attackers get put away so they can't keep reoffending.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Uh-huh, obviously. And people saying men should make the streets at night safer refer to the former.

Because "not being isn't super puritanical" isn't a danger to anyone at night. In fact, unless you actually approach a woman and talk about it, they're not even going to know what your beliefs about sex are. So it's completely obvious that the phrase refers to aggressive/ sexist behaviour.
Problem is a fair few feminists seem to regard finding a woman sexy or trying to talk to her without pre-approved consent to be aggressive / sexist. Guys are the ones expected to try and make a move and shoot their shot in the present culture and the only thing that can really be done is make it clear to men to back off if a woman says she's not interested / is in a relationship already..



Yep, lots of them are twats.

Not as if it's exclusive to them. A lot of this behaviour is from drunken "lad" types, or superiority-complex inner city rich knobheads, or from dirty old men hanging around pubs and city centres, from my experience.
Not exclusively but then again. Women + alcohol have had some strange things go down too from what I've seen too and part of the main problem of people actually doing stuff these days seem far more the male feminist ally types working to make women feel safe and drop their guard around than the creepy old guy they see and think is creepy and old and have their guard up round far more.


I mean exceptionally common behaviour that women have to put up with constantly. Most women I know from work-- more than half, and I work in the centre of London-- have been catcalled, followed at night, touched inappropriately by strangers, or randomly propositioned by random men three times their age. And I've seen it happen around numerous pubs and clubs.

I would hazard a guess that you have "no clue" because you don't experience it personally yourself, and you wouldn't listen if people who did experience it told you.
I'm a dude and can tick off women doing many of those things to me, the except being the women three times my age, they propositioned my friend instead lol. I just get propositioned for weird fetish sex by random women it seems.

I've been cat called by women.
I've had my ass and my crotch grabbed by women.
I've been randomly propositioned about 3-5 times for sex 2 of which were for fetish stuff.

I'm not even a looker so yeh I have personally experienced some of it and you know what? I can laugh about it because man those women must have been drunk.
 

Trunkage

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Well yes. Men aren't going to fix this alone. As I said it's not reasonable to expect all men to be out like Batman watching everywhere just in case a woman decides she wants to go on a night out, get blind drunk them walk home alone through an empty park with little to no lighting up.

Prevention I'd say in this case is far better then a cure (mostly because the only cure is brain chips for all men or literally kill all of us men just to make sure or that crackpot feminist plan of killing 80% of the male population to keep the remaining 20 as breeding stock or something).

Prevention:
Push the idea of looking out for one another in your friend group
Push the idea of not getting blind drunk unless you can really trust the friends you're out with to look after you.
Push the idea of testing to make sure drinks aren't spiked and push for the use of anti spiking stoppers etc
Push having a plan, if you get split up you plan to meet somewhere.
Push the idea of carrying rape alarms and or rape inc
Push the idea of not walking home alone through unlit or dangerous areas
Push the idea of self defence classes so if anyone tries that women can break their attackers arm or at least do some damage to put them off.


Stopping the cycle:
Push the idea of going to the police if something happens (something some feminist groups etc were saying not to do before, see Suey Park), none of this "Oh but he seems like a good guy and helps the progressive cause so much and maybe I shouldn't come forward" stuff either. This helps attackers get put away so they can't keep reoffending.
Oh. So you for the Gillette ad now

What a strange turn of events

(It's actually not strange to me. You repeating the Gillette mantra here is exactly how I thought you felt about things. And just is showing how Gillette controversy was manufactured.)

But it's great that that ad taught/reinforce something for you

Also, I believe this was about feminists 'making sure women aren't draft but men are.' Despite feminists taking the army to court of the exact opposite
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Oh. So you for the Gillette ad now

What a strange turn of events

(It's actually not strange to me. You repeating the Gillette mantra here is exactly how I thought you felt about things. And just is showing how Gillette controversy was manufactured.)

But it's great that that ad taught/reinforce something for you

Also, I believe this was about feminists 'making sure women aren't draft but men are.' Despite feminists taking the army to court of the exact opposite
Every now and then you get some conservative politician who tries to point out the hypocrisy of feminists by trying to make the draft in the US equal gender, who the has to vote against his own proposed change because the feminists vote for it.
 
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Cheetodust

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Well yes. Men aren't going to fix this alone. As I said it's not reasonable to expect all men to be out like Batman watching everywhere just in case a woman decides she wants to go on a night out, get blind drunk them walk home alone through an empty park with little to no lighting up.

Prevention I'd say in this case is far better then a cure (mostly because the only cure is brain chips for all men or literally kill all of us men just to make sure or that crackpot feminist plan of killing 80% of the male population to keep the remaining 20 as breeding stock or something).

Prevention:
Push the idea of looking out for one another in your friend group
Push the idea of not getting blind drunk unless you can really trust the friends you're out with to look after you.
Push the idea of testing to make sure drinks aren't spiked and push for the use of anti spiking stoppers etc
Push having a plan, if you get split up you plan to meet somewhere.
Push the idea of carrying rape alarms and or rape inc
Push the idea of not walking home alone through unlit or dangerous areas
Push the idea of self defence classes so if anyone tries that women can break their attackers arm or at least do some damage to put them off.


Stopping the cycle:
Push the idea of going to the police if something happens (something some feminist groups etc were saying not to do before, see Suey Park), none of this "Oh but he seems like a good guy and helps the progressive cause so much and maybe I shouldn't come forward" stuff either. This helps attackers get put away so they can't keep reoffending.
Yeah. You don't know or speak to any women. Pretty clear. Have fun.
 

Fallen Soldier

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War in general sucks. I wish such a concept was easy to grasp for most of our world leaders. If WW3 ever happen then it’s game set match for all of us.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Yeah. You don't know or speak to any women. Pretty clear. Have fun.
Maybe it's more just I've spoken to a range of women over the years and you've only spoken to those in your little echo chamber who agree with your politics 100%?
 

Satinavian

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Ok. But when women talk about men helping to make the streets safe, they're not fucking talking about men just talking to one another, are they?

They're talking about the aggressive, sexist behaviour directed at women. Which is extremely common, and which lots of men currently just ignore/ laugh along with.
I don't think so.

I mean, i can't remember a single instance of sexist behavior i have seen on the street for the last 5 years.

And the reason is probably that when i move through the city, all the other people are just moving obstacles and whatever they say is just background noise. They get as much attention as needed to get me safely to my destination but not a tiny bit more. If something is not directed at me, i likely won't notice it. And i assume, most others on the street act similarly.

Or maybe it is instead that i never visit pubs or clubs. Who knows.


Either way, the ability of uninvolved people to "make the street safer" are vastly overestimated. It needs no willfully ignorance of sexist behavior if it isn't noticed in the first place.
 

Trunkage

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Doubtful.
Well, I wouldn't doubt that there are a bunch of women in Dwarvenhobble's echo chamber that agree with him. Just imagine a 2020 Phyllis Schafly.

It exactly where Dwarvenhobble gets his impression of 'femisism'. It would be funny if this wasn't the exact things they've been saying for 50 years
 
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Silvanus

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I don't think so.

I mean, i can't remember a single instance of sexist behavior i have seen on the street for the last 5 years.

And the reason is probably that when i move through the city, all the other people are just moving obstacles and whatever they say is just background noise. They get as much attention as needed to get me safely to my destination but not a tiny bit more. If something is not directed at me, i likely won't notice it. And i assume, most others on the street act similarly.

Or maybe it is instead that i never visit pubs or clubs. Who knows.


Either way, the ability of uninvolved people to "make the street safer" are vastly overestimated. It needs no willfully ignorance of sexist behavior if it isn't noticed in the first place.
I quite often walk a colleague home, so that might make it a bit more clear. But I've also heard numerous other colleagues and friends describe instances i haven't personally witnessed, just when we've been discussing it.

Either way, we're not generally talking about totally uninvolved strangers. Men who do this shit at pubs and clubs are usually in small groups, their mates who won't get involved but also won't say a thing to stop it.

That's less the case with random instances on the street, admittedly. But the opportunities are there, sometimes, and are rarely taken. A lot of men prefer to just pretend it doesn't happen or its overblown.
 

Silvanus

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Problem is a fair few feminists seem to regard finding a woman sexy or trying to talk to her without pre-approved consent to be aggressive / sexist.
No they don't. Imaginary strawman.

Not exclusively but then again. Women + alcohol have had some strange things go down too from what I've seen too and part of the main problem of people actually doing stuff these days seem far more the male feminist ally types working to make women feel safe and drop their guard around than the creepy old guy they see and think is creepy and old and have their guard up round far more.
It "seems far more" to you because you're exclusively looking for reasons to bash self-described feminists, rather than having any interest in actually learning about women's experiences.


I'm a dude and can tick off women doing many of those things to me, the except being the women three times my age, they propositioned my friend instead lol. I just get propositioned for weird fetish sex by random women it seems.

I've been cat called by women.
I've had my ass and my crotch grabbed by women.
I've been randomly propositioned about 3-5 times for sex 2 of which were for fetish stuff.

I'm not even a looker so yeh I have personally experienced some of it and you know what? I can laugh about it because man those women must have been drunk.
You were randomly propositioned for fetish sex?

What context was this? I simply do not believe that this happened in the street or in an average public spot like a pub.
 

Satinavian

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Men who do this shit at pubs and clubs are usually in small groups, their mates who won't get involved but also won't say a thing to stop it.
Sure, such groups exist.

But what kind of men tend to join such groups ? How big is the overlap with men who really don't like sexism or could be motivated to do something about it ?

I mean, yes, i once had a collegue making inappropriate joles. Twice and never again. And i know some other guy from Roleplaying who made inappropriate jokes but stopped when no one else found those humorous. I would not surprised if he still did it elsewhere, with likeminded people. But i have never been part of such a group and would likely leave anyway.

If the pup and club culture has a sexism problem, only people in clubs and pubs can solve it.
 

Silvanus

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Sure, such groups exist.

But what kind of men tend to join such groups ? How big is the overlap with men who really don't like sexism or could be motivated to do something about it ?

I mean, yes, i once had a collegue making inappropriate joles. Twice and never again. And i know some other guy from Roleplaying who made inappropriate jokes but stopped when no one else found those humorous. I would not surprised if he still did it elsewhere, with likeminded people. But i have never been part of such a group and would likely leave anyway.
Of course there'll be overlap. People don't tend to exist solely within small orbits, groups mix and interact. People have large webs of friendly acquaintances. Hence why I've met and been semi-friendly with numerous people who might act like this, though they wouldn't be in my actual circle of friends.

If the pup and club culture has a sexism problem, only people in clubs and pubs can solve it.
Indeed. Hence encouraging men to make such places safer for women. That's precisely the point of the phrase.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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No they don't. Imaginary strawman.
You've not seen the "Ew a guy came up to talk to me in the street one time, guys shouldn't be allowed to do this without my consent" lot on twitter.


It "seems far more" to you because you're exclusively looking for reasons to bash self-described feminists, rather than having any interest in actually learning about women's experiences.
Or because that is how it keeps happening now.

There's been 2 CNN producers hit recently not including the claims against Cuomo.

As for "Learning about women's experiences" I've heard most of the horror tales etc out there and listening to women's experiences I should point out is very different to just doing whatever certain feminist groups say should be done not least because of how some of it is pure hyperbole or at least I'd hope some of the suggestions are.



You were randomly propositioned for fetish sex?
Yes.
I turned it down when it happened in person as while I won't say what specifically it was for the sake of people eating while reading this I will say it wasn't BDSM (though I have been propositioned online for that on Tinder before)

What context was this? I simply do not believe that this happened in the street or in an average public spot like a pub.
Well the story is even less believable when I tell it.
Years ago now
I was on a night out in town with friends and it was all us guy. We ended up in a pub with a beer garden and fairly nearby was a group of girls. They decided to go and were saying goodbyes etc as they'd presumably only come out for a bit not for a full night drinking. As they were leaving I feel a hand tap me on the shoulder, I turn round slightly to see and this girl (admittedly quite attractive) leans in and whispers in my ear "Hey are you into [fetish play]? if so come with me back to mine" and as I looked she sort of did that weird nervous lip curl / lip biting thing some people do. She then put her hand in mine and when I didn't grab it she let her hand slip out of mine.

IT was a truly weird experience.

I mean it's not quite as weird as the girl who started giving me a handjob somewhat randomly in a student laundrette but that's a tale for another time.
 

Silvanus

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You've not seen the "Ew a guy came up to talk to me in the street one time, guys shouldn't be allowed to do this without my consent" lot on twitter.
"Came up to talk to me" isn't the end of it. You're selectively editing it. We're talking about propositioning people, touching strangers, inviting themselves around. Not just approaching and starting an innocent conversation.

Or because that is how it keeps happening now.

There's been 2 CNN producers hit recently not including the claims against Cuomo.

As for "Learning about women's experiences" I've heard most of the horror tales etc out there and listening to women's experiences I should point out is very different to just doing whatever certain feminist groups say should be done not least because of how some of it is pure hyperbole or at least I'd hope some of the suggestions are.
It's really hard to figure out what you're actually talking about. What "horror stories" are you talking about? And it seems to me that your sole interest is using these examples to distract/counter the instances I've already brought up. What's the relevance?

Yes.
I turned it down when it happened in person as while I won't say what specifically it was for the sake of people eating while reading this I will say it wasn't BDSM (though I have been propositioned online for that on Tinder before)


Well the story is even less believable when I tell it.
Years ago now
I was on a night out in town with friends and it was all us guy. We ended up in a pub with a beer garden and fairly nearby was a group of girls. They decided to go and were saying goodbyes etc as they'd presumably only come out for a bit not for a full night drinking. As they were leaving I feel a hand tap me on the shoulder, I turn round slightly to see and this girl (admittedly quite attractive) leans in and whispers in my ear "Hey are you into [fetish play]? if so come with me back to mine" and as I looked she sort of did that weird nervous lip curl / lip biting thing some people do. She then put her hand in mine and when I didn't grab it she let her hand slip out of mine.

IT was a truly weird experience.

I mean it's not quite as weird as the girl who started giving me a handjob somewhat randomly in a student laundrette but that's a tale for another time.
Where was this?

If this happened in your usual average club or pub, it was a totally unacceptable incident. But I find it more than a little suspicious that you've solely brought it up in order to argue against feminists.