Young South Korean Men Revolt Against Feminism in South Korea

Trunkage

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I quite often walk a colleague home, so that might make it a bit more clear. But I've also heard numerous other colleagues and friends describe instances i haven't personally witnessed, just when we've been discussing it.

Either way, we're not generally talking about totally uninvolved strangers. Men who do this shit at pubs and clubs are usually in small groups, their mates who won't get involved but also won't say a thing to stop it.

That's less the case with random instances on the street, admittedly. But the opportunities are there, sometimes, and are rarely taken. A lot of men prefer to just pretend it doesn't happen or its overblown.
We have work policy that if you are closing with another staff member, you need to make sure they got to their car before you leave.

It's on street parking so it could be half a km away but I may drive up to them to check this box
 

McElroy

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It is extremely different in fundamental ways. I'm not risking my life and limb against my will by paying taxes.
I understand that in some cases, small nations with belligerent neighbors, such as Finland, may want every adult man to have at least some military training. But that, to my mind, seems to be more from tradition than any realistic assessment of how well conscripts perform against professional armies.
My preference is zero conscription. But if a nation refuses to get rid of it, then it shouldn't exempt people based on their sex.
The traditional aspect of it seems to keep the wheel turning, so to speak, because it makes military service such a norm. They've done the assessments, but of course they aren't separated from spending. It's not uncommon to think our conscription is just a men-only tax (can't work too much during service). Now, they have tested unisex conscription and it doesn't change anything in military service itself, but they obviously haven't forced it upon them.

If it fulfills the military purpose better (and that includes being economic enough to hold up in a democracy), then we should move towards a smaller professional army. Sexes aren't the same, and that seems to lead somewhat towards women having shorter careers because of family matters compared to men, so expanding conscription is just crap for the quest for equality. Family matters are optional, yes, but similarly a man with hyper career drive can avoid service easily. On the other hand the young men that do everything to avoid service usually aren't the most productive bunch, but y'know it's not like it's impossible.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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"Came up to talk to me" isn't the end of it. You're selectively editing it. We're talking about propositioning people, touching strangers, inviting themselves around. Not just approaching and starting an innocent conversation.
Again some see even approaching as bad enough.

It's really hard to figure out what you're actually talking about. What "horror stories" are you talking about? And it seems to me that your sole interest is using these examples to distract/counter the instances I've already brought up. What's the relevance?
I'm guessing you mean examples you said you'd heard from others in response not to me but Trunkage I think it was earlier in this topic?

Which again dunno how well they work when you don't know the nature of those involved in doing it a lot of the time.


Where was this?
A Yates's pub I would give you a specific venue name but I'm not too keen of releasing the name of a town I live near lol.

If this happened in your usual average club or pub, it was a totally unacceptable incident. But I find it more than a little suspicious that you've solely brought it up in order to argue against feminists.
I mean I have no objections to her shooting her shot, it was a bit weird but in the end it's just another something I look back and laugh about. Don't ask never get and all that. No harm in asking and I think she realised by my stunned and confused reaction it was a no from me.
 

gorfias

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Odd this came up today. Not sure what is bringing up all of this stuff in South Korea right now.

 

Terminal Blue

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"Came up to talk to me" isn't the end of it. You're selectively editing it. We're talking about propositioning people, touching strangers, inviting themselves around. Not just approaching and starting an innocent conversation.
Even then, don't.

When someone starts talking to me in the street. Unless they're clearly asking for directions, my first reaction is "is this a prelude to a hatecrime or a sexual assault?"

Because historically, a solid 1/3rd of the time, it has been one of those.

If you've never had a bad experience with someone approaching you in the street, you might not necessarily think about how it comes across to someone who has.

If you see someone alone in a bar or other social venue, by all means go and talk to them. You might still get a bad reaction, but the chance is a lot lower because it's the right situation. Don't go and randomly start talking to people in the street, because a lot of people have not had good experiences with that, and if so, they probably just want to get you to go away as quickly as possible.

And the worst thing is, most people who go up and start talking to people on the street know that. They know that it's going to make someone anxious and put them on the defensive. Their goal is to put that person under enough pressure that they will agree to something or give up personal information just to get you to leave. It's the same strategy behind aggressive begging. It's incredibly shitty though, don't do it.
 

Silvanus

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I'm guessing you mean examples you said you'd heard from others in response not to me but Trunkage I think it was earlier in this topic?

Which again dunno how well they work when you don't know the nature of those involved in doing it a lot of the time.
The instances of aggressive or creepy, forward behaviour that over half of my female friends and colleagues have experienced in neutral, unassuming places like streets and pubs.

And yeah, I find it a little iffy that you bring up stuff like the CNN producers or Cuomo seemingly solely to complain about feminists. It sounds like that's your sole interest when you bring this stuff up, so I find it hard to believe you have any genuine concern for the people involved.

A Yates's pub I would give you a specific venue name but I'm not too keen of releasing the name of a town I live near lol.

I mean I have no objections to her shooting her shot, it was a bit weird but in the end it's just another something I look back and laugh about. Don't ask never get and all that. No harm in asking and I think she realised by my stunned and confused reaction it was a no from me.
Fair enough. That entire instance sounds creepy and way out of line.

It sounds a thousand miles away from the experiences of any men I've ever spoken to.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The instances of aggressive or creepy, forward behaviour that over half of my female friends and colleagues have experienced in neutral, unassuming places like streets and pubs.

And yeah, I find it a little iffy that you bring up stuff like the CNN producers or Cuomo seemingly solely to complain about feminists. It sounds like that's your sole interest when you bring this stuff up, so I find it hard to believe you have any genuine concern for the people involved.
I did bring it up in the woke or anti-woke world thread at one point but that moves pretty fast.

As for 'creepy behaviour' well it happens both ways to an extent and there's an old sort of expression (Old in internet terms)

"What's the difference between a creepy stalker and a romantic secret admirer? You like it"
Which is more a comment on some of the stuff in romance films etc than much else but it can somewhat hold true IRL too

Fair enough. That entire instance sounds creepy and way out of line.

It sounds a thousand miles away from the experiences of any men I've ever spoken to.
I'm sure you'll find a fair few guys have tales like this but don't talk about them that often or talk about them in different contexts. I have a surprising number of such stories for a guy who looks like the lovechild of Peter Kay and David Mitchell
 

Silvanus

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I did bring it up in the woke or anti-woke world thread at one point but that moves pretty fast.

As for 'creepy behaviour' well it happens both ways to an extent and there's an old sort of expression (Old in internet terms)

"What's the difference between a creepy stalker and a romantic secret admirer? You like it"
Which is more a comment on some of the stuff in romance films etc than much else but it can somewhat hold true IRL too
Eurgh.

No, phrases like that are used to excuse shitty behaviour, and to blame women for their own lack of boundaries. A "romantic secret admirer" doesn't cat-call, follow women home, constantly talk to them after they've already said they're not interested.

I'm sure you'll find a fair few guys have tales like this but don't talk about them that often or talk about them in different contexts. I have a surprising number of such stories for a guy who looks like the lovechild of Peter Kay and David Mitchell
I simply do not believe that you're frequently getting propositioned for fetish sex by women in neutral settings. I do not think that's happening.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Eurgh.

No, phrases like that are used to excuse shitty behaviour, and to blame women for their own lack of boundaries. A "romantic secret admirer" doesn't cat-call, follow women home, constantly talk to them after they've already said they're not interested.
Yeh that's kind of the point of the phrase to point out how fucked up some stuff seen as modern romance is and to show there very much is an issue with stuff going on and it is often excused or seen as fine because the guy doing it is seen as attractive or something like that and yet this applies to others too going "Oh I'd love it if a guy did that kind of thing for me it's so romantic" when a person may not be interested themselves but now feels bad because they're getting something others would enjoy and maybe don't want to stop it because they feel bad rejected said actions.

Cat calling, I can see the problem and it's not something I'd do but having in the past watched some girls yell to a friend of mine "Hey big boy come over here" it's not exactly a 1 sided thing entirely (Admittedly the girls were Spanish and their English wasn't great but still it happened).

Following women home is creepy in normal context I will admit and again not something I'd do but It could be argued by some in rare cases of guys being lets say overprotective and trying to make sure women got home OK (again highly unlikely but it's an argument that could be made in some rare cases rather than a guy being inherently predatory)


I simply do not believe that you're frequently getting propositioned for fetish sex by women in neutral settings. I do not think that's happening.
Frequently? No
Have had it happen? Yeh twice for fetish sex 5 times for regular sex
As for not believing it, you're not the only one I still don't believe it's happened but I know it did happen and remember it happening
 

Gergar12

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Interesting to say the least.


63% of workers make less than ₩31.05 million (US$26,644.18) annually.
 
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Trunkage

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Interesting to say the least.


63% of workers make less than ₩31.05 million (US$26,644.18) annually.
Yes but womens have the babies so need to be paid less
 
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Terminal Blue

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I mean it's somewhat ironic the "Male Feminist ally" types on twitter tend to be the ones actually harming women
I'm going to add a massive, massive correction here.

They're the ones who get caught.

Except it not sexual harassment it's rape they want to try and teach people not to do, the thing basically any right minded person already knows not to do.
So, this is a huge red flag, because pretty much every rapist would agree with you.

Every rapist has an excuse. They all have a reason for why what they've done is okay, why it doesn't count as rape or why they were justified in doing it. Some of them even believe it. Some of them do it because they're unable to reconcile what they've done with the type of person they think they are. After all, they're not a rapist, they're not a special evil person, so whatever they did can't possibly have been rape. Besides, it didn't look like in the movies, so it wasn't rape. She was into me anyway, so it wasn't rape. We were dating, so it wasn't rape. A huge amount of actual rape prevention work involves confronting and breaking down these kinds of excuses rapists make.

Noone cares about the "terrible people". The "terrible people" are an insignificant minority. The "terrible people" can't account for the sheer overwhelming prevalance of sexual violence and coercion in our society. You will meet hundreds and hundreds of rape victims in the course of your life, but you will probably never meet one who has been a victim of the "terrible people". There are not that many irredeemable, unrepentant monsters out there, there are a lot of ordinary people who are able to make excuses for themselves.

There is something fundamentally, fundamentally wrong with the way our society raises men, particularly when it comes to sex. The simple fact is, most men (to one degree or another) fetishize non-consent. Most men, to one degree or another, see sex as something they have to pressure or persuade women to do, and see that as part of the enjoyment. Most men (with some unfortunate exceptions) are not able to concieve of rape from the perspective of a victim. If you think those men are going to stop thinking that way when put in a position of any power or around anyone vulnerable, then you trust them more than they deserve.

You talk about women needing to take precautions. Do you genuinely not realise that they already do? All the things you've described are things most women (who aren't too young to know better) already do, because most women know that men can't be trusted. What more would you want? Do you think women should avoid any form of emotional intimacy with or vulnerability around men? Should women be minimizing contact with men within their own lives? Should women reject any form of heterosexual romantic relationship as inherently doomed and abusive? Because a lot of women are already getting there..
 

McElroy

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The simple fact is, most men (to one degree or another) fetishize non-consent.
I reckon this comes automatically if one has no access to sex. Like, wanting to have sex with somebody you 100% know doesn't want it with you is already 'one degree or another' towards non-consent, even if it's never acted upon.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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I'm going to add a massive, massive correction here.

They're the ones who get caught.



So, this is a huge red flag, because pretty much every rapist would agree with you.

Every rapist has an excuse. They all have a reason for why what they've done is okay, why it doesn't count as rape or why they were justified in doing it. Some of them even believe it. Some of them do it because they're unable to reconcile what they've done with the type of person they think they are. After all, they're not a rapist, they're not a special evil person, so whatever they did can't possibly have been rape. Besides, it didn't look like in the movies, so it wasn't rape. She was into me anyway, so it wasn't rape. We were dating, so it wasn't rape. A huge amount of actual rape prevention work involves confronting and breaking down these kinds of excuses rapists make.

Noone cares about the "terrible people". The "terrible people" are an insignificant minority. The "terrible people" can't account for the sheer overwhelming prevalance of sexual violence and coercion in our society. You will meet hundreds and hundreds of rape victims in the course of your life, but you will probably never meet one who has been a victim of the "terrible people". There are not that many irredeemable, unrepentant monsters out there, there are a lot of ordinary people who are able to make excuses for themselves.
No it seems most of the ones doing the rape reconcile it by suggesting other men at the problem and that Toxic masculinity attitude is what drove them to feel the need to do it so clearly the issue is other men need to be taught not to rape too because other men are going to be as awful and toxic as them. They're not generally the ones suggesting any sane man knows not to rape. Simply based on precedent of the things some of those I've mentioned have chosen to start supporting. Because in part it literally helps them hide it or makes their victims not want t come forward because they see the person doing all this supposed good and pushing the right points that they don't want to come forward against them.

There is something fundamentally, fundamentally wrong with the way our society raises men, particularly when it comes to sex. The simple fact is, most men (to one degree or another) fetishize non-consent. Most men, to one degree or another, see sex as something they have to pressure or persuade women to do, and see that as part of the enjoyment. Most men (with some unfortunate exceptions) are not able to concieve of rape from the perspective of a victim. If you think those men are going to stop thinking that way when put in a position of any power or around anyone vulnerable, then you trust them more than they deserve.

You talk about women needing to take precautions. Do you genuinely not realise that they already do? All the things you've described are things most women (who aren't too young to know better) already do, because most women know that men can't be trusted. What more would you want? Do you think women should avoid any form of emotional intimacy with or vulnerability around men? Should women be minimizing contact with men within their own lives? Should women reject any form of heterosexual romantic relationship as inherently doomed and abusive? Because a lot of women are already getting there..
Part of that first paragraph sounds exactly like Joss Whedons excuses for his actions. "Oh but societal pressure made me do it".
As for the arguement women do those things, some women do, some. Unfortunately getting un unlicensed cabs still happens so do people getting black out drunk without friends about to make sure they're safe. I've seen girls alone in pub / clubs without friends about in the stage of being drunk where you can see their eyes starting to basically glaze over. It's really unfortunately not as uncommon as you seem to think.
 

Terminal Blue

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No it seems most of the ones doing the rape reconcile it by suggesting other men at the problem and that Toxic masculinity attitude is what drove them to feel the need to do it so clearly the issue is other men need to be taught not to rape too because other men are going to be as awful and toxic as them.
Do you think Joss Whedon is responsible for the majority of rapes?

How does that even work? Is Joss Whedon like some evil version of Santa Claus? Does he fly around the world in his magic sled sexually assaulting people?

Like, we get it, you don't like Joss Whedon. I don't like Joss Whedon. There are very few male celebrities who I like, because sooner or later they all turn out to be creeps.

Let's be real here though. Joss Whedon is not a nice person. He is certainly guilty of sexual harassment, but as far as we know he has never actually raped anyone. Mike Cernovich, right wing provocateur, has actually raped someone. Donald Trump, right wing US president, has raped several women, including some who were children at the time. Those men would absolutely tell you that any sane man knows not to rape. They'd also tell you that they personally never raped anyone, that what they did absolutely doesn't count or that it never happened and their accusers are lying.

If all it takes to characterize "most of the ones doing the rape" is 5 or 6 celebrities being creeps, then no. It absolutely does not seem like most of the ones doing the rape are concerned with toxic masculinity.

Like, I'll be real for a moment. As someone with a research interest in masculinity, the word "toxic masculinity" makes me want to claw my eyes out, and for very similar reasons to the ones you describe. "Toxic" masculinity implies that there is such a thing as non-toxic masculinity. It is a deflection tactic, it's a way of drawing the line between other men who are bad, and some special chosen group of "good" men whose masculinity is benevolent. It's no different, in fact, from what you're doing. You're also trying to pretend that there's some special group of men out there who are conveniently responsible for all of the bad things attributable to men as a whole, thus leaving you and the people you like magically blameless. You've just flipped the targets around.

Sadly though, it doesn't work that way. The problems with men are too widespread to be attributable to special type of toxic masculinity, or a minority of "terrible people." All masculinity is toxic. Abuse is so baked into the fabric of what masculinity is that it cannot simply be removed. There is no type of man who is automatically safe, or who can be trusted not to rape someone or turn into a monster given the opportunity.

We've all encountered dreadful profeminist men who turned out to be creeps. I have encountered far, far more of them than you have. As an academic, I have had people I used to respect and look up to turn out to be abusive or predatory. They are still a tiny, tiny minority of the abusive men I have encountered in my life.

Because in part it literally helps them hide it or makes their victims not want t come forward because they see the person doing all this supposed good and pushing the right points that they don't want to come forward against them.
Again, the handful of male celebrities you don't like and have decided are single-handedly responsible for all the rape in the world are defined by the fact that they got caught. They didn't hide it or get away with it, unlike the countless men who did. Your sample is literally selected on the basis of the fact that they didn't do the thing you are claiming they did.

Almost all men who rape someone will get away with it. The chance of them not getting away with it is so insignificantly small that it may as well not exist, which is why you can assume that anyone who settles in a rape case is 100% guilty. In fact, as sad and awful as it makes me feel, I cannot in good conscious recommend that anyone comes forward to report a rape against them, because it's just a traumatic experience which goes nowhere and will typically leave you far worse off than the person you're accusing. I would say get a friend to beat them up or slash their tyres instead, but you might actually get arrested for that..

As for the arguement women do those things, some women do, some. Unfortunately getting un unlicensed cabs still happens so do people getting black out drunk without friends about to make sure they're safe. I've seen girls alone in pub / clubs without friends about in the stage of being drunk where you can see their eyes starting to basically glaze over. It's really unfortunately not as uncommon as you seem to think.
The fact that we're even talking about this, incidentally, is an example of a rape myth.

Most women are not raped on nights out. They are not raped because they got too drunk or took a minicab. This whole line of thought is just a silly derailment based on a complete misunderstanding of what rape is or why it happens. It's not going to protect anyone, and it's never put forward by anyone with any real interest in protecting anyone. Far more often, it's put forward by men with an interest in camouflaging their own behaviour.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Might mention Roman Polanski, who drugged and raped a kid, never denied it, and yet lots of people (including some who were politically active about rape issues, most likely some of them genuinely) chose to overlook that and work with him. Hell, Brad Pitt worked with Harvey Weinstein despite the latter sexually harassing Angeline Jolie when she was with Brad Pitt, and I doubt he's alone in that.

The guy who can help your career isn't a rapist, not really.

Likewise, there was no doubt that the rapists in Steubenville were guilty, and the people of Steubenville took their side. Ask them a week before it all came out if rapists were bad people, they'd obviously say yet, but when it turns out to be members of their community they like, it's not rape, not really. This case is notable solely because Steubenville is an unusual name, and for no other reason.

Likewise, the politician who is an important figure on your side isn't really a rapist, not really. Sure, he might have technically committed rape, but something something something.
 

Satinavian

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Like, I'll be real for a moment. As someone with a research interest in masculinity, the word "toxic masculinity" makes me want to claw my eyes out, and for very similar reasons to the ones you describe. "Toxic" masculinity implies that there is such a thing as non-toxic masculinity. It is a deflection tactic, it's a way of drawing the line between other men who are bad, and some special chosen group of "good" men whose masculinity is benevolent. It's no different, in fact, from what you're doing. You're also trying to pretend that there's some special group of men out there who are conveniently responsible for all of the bad things attributable to men as a whole, thus leaving you and the people you like magically blameless. You've just flipped the targets around.

Sadly though, it doesn't work that way. The problems with men are too widespread to be attributable to special type of toxic masculinity, or a minority of "terrible people." All masculinity is toxic. Abuse is so baked into the fabric of what masculinity is that it cannot simply be removed. There is no type of man who is automatically safe, or who can be trusted not to rape someone or turn into a monster given the opportunity.
Most men never rape anybody. Rapists are a minority of terrible people.

It is pretty impossible to recognize them which leads to all those precausions against men in general, but that is no reason to start identifying men in general with rapists.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Going back to the state of feminism in Korea, there's an ongoing thing where monsters are doxing and trying to suicide bait a high school girl with deepfake pornography because a letter she was forced to write to military conscripts by the school was insufficiently congratulatory.



Also, some scandal where a gal went clubbing, got drugged, and woke up two hours later missing an ear.