Niccolò Machiavelli - I just love his pragmitisim. Real advice for real problems being suffered for the time he was in. Some of his stuff we will scoff at today but in his time it was incredibly practical and terribly effective.
I'll admit, I'm more familiar with Dawkins than Dennett, but they are two of the "Four Horseman of New Atheism," New Atheism being, by definition, completely intolerant of religion (sentence 1 on the wikipedia page). If they *merely* tried to educate people about evolution, that would be one thing, and there would be a lot more theistic evolutionists around. They attempt to use evolution as proof against the existence of God, which, as you can imagine, turns people away. Their work reinforces the lie that science inherently rejects metaphysical claims. In reality, such claims cannot be evaluated using the scientific method (not falsifiable).Flatfrog said:OK, not wanting to derail the thread but:Deathmageddon said:Intolerant people like him and Richard Dawkins are the reason some 35-40% (it's somewhere around that number, but don't quote me on it) Americans don't believe in evolution.Flatfrog said:Daniel Dennett.
He gets science and therefore wins.
What is intolerant about Dennett? Have you read anything he has written? Or Dawkins either, for that matter? They write clearly and simply about their subject in the face of a constant barrage of hatred, bile and actual threats. And just to make it clear, this isn't because of *their* attitude, it's purely because they have the temerity to profess a public belief in evolution - if you don't believe me then look at the abuse David Attenborough, the most softly-spoken, kindly man receives from the same people.
Blaming atheists for other people's ignorance is ridiculous. The reason huge numbers of Americans don't believe in evolution is a dedicated and hugely funded misinformation campaign perpetrated by variously ignorant, misguided or plain malign individuals on a massive scale. And frankly, thank Thor that some people have the courage to stand in the face of it.
I'm confused now lol. A claim ceases to be philosophical once you have the ability to prove it, whereas Freud's methodology was scientific.HoneyVision said:Well just because it's not "science", it doesn't mean it's bullshit. He developed the idea of the unconscious, which has no mathematical proof whatsoever, but has been proven through empirical evidence and observation.Deathmageddon said:nonono lol psychologists HATE it when you don't consider their work science.HoneyVision said:Does Sigmund Freud count? Cuz he'd definitely be on my list.
I don't think it's just because they're proud of their beliefs, we Christians tend to like Bill Nye and De'Grasse Tyson enough (though Nye has been pretty irritating lately). It's the fact that folk like Dawkins thinks religion is some awful blight on the human mind that drives us away from them. I (and many others like me) actually really don't mind when atheists defend their own views calmly and rationally, it's when they focus less on supporting their own stance and more on degrading everyone else that we get annoyed. People like that only serve to fan flames and piss everyone off, and before anyone mentions it I know that people of all philosophical outlooks, viewpoints, and faiths do this. Dawkins just caught a lot of flak because of... Well, you gut that part right, a smear campaign. But don't think they didn't pick him for a reason, he was a really easy target.Flatfrog said:OK, not wanting to derail the thread but:Deathmageddon said:Intolerant people like him and Richard Dawkins are the reason some 35-40% (it's somewhere around that number, but don't quote me on it) Americans don't believe in evolution.Flatfrog said:Daniel Dennett.
He gets science and therefore wins.
What is intolerant about Dennett? Have you read anything he has written? Or Dawkins either, for that matter? They write clearly and simply about their subject in the face of a constant barrage of hatred, bile and actual threats. And just to make it clear, this isn't because of *their* attitude, it's purely because they have the temerity to profess a public belief in evolution - if you don't believe me then look at the abuse David Attenborough, the most softly-spoken, kindly man receives from the same people.
Blaming atheists for other people's ignorance is ridiculous. The reason huge numbers of Americans don't believe in evolution is a dedicated and hugely funded misinformation campaign perpetrated by variously ignorant, misguided or plain malign individuals on a massive scale. And frankly, thank Thor that some people have the courage to stand in the face of it.
Deathmageddon said:If they *merely* tried to educate people about evolution, that would be one thing, and there would be a lot more theistic evolutionists around. They attempt to use evolution as proof against the existence of God, which, as you can imagine, turns people away.
Dawkins does not focus more on "degrading" others than supporting his own stance. The man has written eleven books, and only one of them was about atheism/ religion. The others were various scientific books on biology, evolution and genetics, unrelated to the issue of the religious.Yarkaz said:it's when they focus less on supporting their own stance and more on degrading everyone else that we get annoyed.
Ah... you beat me to the punch...Lionsfan said:Definitely Hobbes.
I mean, sometimes you just gotta keep things simple, and you'll be happier
I can at least sympathize with people's negative conception of certain prominent atheists, less so because of the men themselves and more so because of the rabid, atheistic fanaticism surrounding them and their views. If you try and google Tyson or Russel, for instance, then you'll be mercilessly bombarded by arrogant atheists treating these men like some kind of mascot, often times to the point of misrepresentation. The body of their work is instantly buried beneath their claims against religion, when often times such stances are merely a byproduct or a small part of their main body of work. Tyson, if I recall, has tried to distance himself from the atheist community because of his frustration with this phenomenon.Silvanus said:Deathmageddon said:If they *merely* tried to educate people about evolution, that would be one thing, and there would be a lot more theistic evolutionists around. They attempt to use evolution as proof against the existence of God, which, as you can imagine, turns people away.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of his point. It's not that evolution is "proof against the existence of God", and Dawkins has never claimed such.
The point is that the hypothesis of God is made less and less necessary with every verifiable scientific explanation, evolution being one such. There's a big distinction there. It's a rational standpoint.
Dawkins does not focus more on "degrading" others than supporting his own stance. The man has written eleven books, and only one of them was about atheism/ religion. The others were various scientific books on biology, evolution and genetics, unrelated to the issue of the religious.Yarkaz said:it's when they focus less on supporting their own stance and more on degrading everyone else that we get annoyed.
People misrepresent Dawkins and his focus constantly. It gets on my wick. He's far more constructive than he is destructive, but people are always eager to forget the broadness of his scope of work.
Thanks, good explanation. I'll probably pick up a book of his at some point down the road.Flatfrog said:Well, he's best known for two books, Darwin's Dangerous Idea and Consciousness Explained, which are both excellent. In terms of pure philosophy, my favourite work of his is Freedom Evolves, which is an in-depth look at the question of free will and determinism and whether the two can be reconciled (which he believes they can, and argues it very convincingly)axlryder said:Googling Dennett, all I'm seeing is a bunch of videos on atheism. Could you elucidate what other "philosophical" contributions he's made outside of his criticisms of religion? More specifically, what is it that he's said/done which resonates with you personally outside of religious denouncement/criticism?
Many of my friends at university were philosophy students and they were all irritating. You could never have a proper conversation with them because they would pick you up on the smallest logical error. What I like about Dennett is that he never seems to be playing that game. He's great at puncturing preconceived notions of philosophers (particularly the idea of 'philosophical zombies' - things that act just like people but have no conscious experience) but mostly he just makes interesting points clearly, concisely and often wittily.
His most important contribution to philosophy in my opinion is the concept of the various 'stances' you can take towards other things in the universe - as a way of avoiding the question of what something actually is; rather similar to Aristotle's classification of causes. So when faced with an object, you can face it with the physical stance: you can just treat it as a set of atoms obeying physical laws. You can always do this, but it doesn't have much explanatory power. You can also take the design stance - that's when you imagine that the object is 'for' something, and try to explain its properties in that way. Finally, you can take the intentional stance, which is to imagine that the object 'wants' something - it has beliefs and desires. If taking the intentional stance has some predictive power, he argues, then it is useful, whether or not it is actually true.
That's it in a nutshell, anyway. I hugely recommend him. I first encountered his work through the book he co-authored with Douglas Hofstadter, my all-time scientific hero, and I've never read anything by him I didn't like. Even Breaking The Spell, his book on religion, is interesting and an original take on the subject - he dares to ask the question of whether religion might be a good or bad thing independent of its truth.
I think you're misusing the word 'intolerant' here. What Dawkins does (and Hitchens did and Dennett does to a sgnificantly lesser extent) is to *reject* religion, and to refuse to *respect* it. So they reject the notion that someone's faith is inherently immune from challenge or criticism - what's more, they insist that the scientific method is precisely the right tool to use to make those challenges.Deathmageddon said:I'll admit, I'm more familiar with Dawkins than Dennett, but they are two of the "Four Horseman of New Atheism," New Atheism being, by definition, completely intolerant of religion (sentence 1 on the wikipedia page).
I don't think that's really stating it fairly. Dawkins doesn't claim evolution is proof against the existence of God, just that it's proof against creationism, which is one of the principal arguments that people use in favour of the existence of God. He's explicitly said that he has no problem with the 'metaphysical' God - the 'principle of goodness', one might say; an ineffable something that makes life wonderful. It's when religious claims fly in the face of clear evidence that he rejects them - and he just refuses to toe the line that we have to be polite about it. And, like Hitchens, he opposes many of the clear evils of religion, such as sectarian violence and the Catholic church's opposition to condoms.Deathmageddon said:If they *merely* tried to educate people about evolution, that would be one thing, and there would be a lot more theistic evolutionists around. They attempt to use evolution as proof against the existence of God, which, as you can imagine, turns people away. Their work reinforces the lie that science inherently rejects metaphysical claims. In reality, such claims cannot be evaluated using the scientific method (not falsifiable).
Well, public schools (in the US) still only teach evolution by the skin of their teeth in the face of huge opposition and several court battles. As for the misinformation campaign, well, I'm afraid you don't have to look terribly far. Start with the Discovery Institute ($4 million annual budget) and work your way out. Take a look at how Fox News treat Dawkins whenever he's featured, or how they endorse the teaching of creationism (http://mediamatters.org/video/2011/08/19/fox-news-hosts-endorse-teaching-creationism-alo/183811).Deathmageddon said:I'm not blaming atheists in general. I would love to hear more about this "hugely funded misinformation campaign perpetrated by variously ignorant, misguided or plain malign individuals on a massive scale" you THINK exists, because last time I checked, public schools only teach evolution. And I wouldn't be thanking Thora - dude had to dress in drag just to retrieve his little club.
Witty Name Here said:There are a few philosophers I generally like.
St. Thomas Aquinas is one of the bigger ones I support; I really agree with his opinion on the intention behind an action being as important as the action itself, his theory on what constitutes a "just war" is also pretty agreeable in my opinion.
Other then Thomas Aquinas, I can also respect Laozi (assuming he's real, of course). I think that Taoism is a very noble and interesting philosophy, unfortunately it's for a much better man then me. I believe I'm too ambitious to practice it in day to day life, still I can respect it.
Karl Marx is another good one. His insights into what causes economic crashes are astounding, and despite disagreeing with him on the whole "communism" thing, he does present a decent case.
Finally, Leo Tolstoy. I have an incredible amount of respect for the man. His ideas may have required a "community of saints" to live up to, but they were very noble. I'd love to read more of his books some time.
I'm a Christian and a European, so I don't follow too closely these things you mention about misinformation. I assume you are talking about America.Flatfrog said:OK, not wanting to derail the thread but:Deathmageddon said:Intolerant people like him and Richard Dawkins are the reason some 35-40% (it's somewhere around that number, but don't quote me on it) Americans don't believe in evolution.Flatfrog said:Daniel Dennett.
He gets science and therefore wins.
What is intolerant about Dennett? Have you read anything he has written? Or Dawkins either, for that matter? They write clearly and simply about their subject in the face of a constant barrage of hatred, bile and actual threats. And just to make it clear, this isn't because of *their* attitude, it's purely because they have the temerity to profess a public belief in evolution - if you don't believe me then look at the abuse David Attenborough, the most softly-spoken, kindly man receives from the same people.
Blaming atheists for other people's ignorance is ridiculous. The reason huge numbers of Americans don't believe in evolution is a dedicated and hugely funded misinformation campaign perpetrated by variously ignorant, misguided or plain malign individuals on a massive scale. And frankly, thank Thor that some people have the courage to stand in the face of it.
Well, I'm European too, but I do follow these things a fair bit, and I'm a long-time Dawkins fan (I certainly largely credit him with turning me from a disinterested agnostic into a fairly hard-core atheist).Faelix said:I'm a Christian and a European, so I don't follow too closely these things you mention about misinformation. I assume you are talking about America.
...
The thing is, here on his old days, it has become clear to him that he is not going to go down in history as the guy who dismantled religion. This has in my eyes, turned him more and more hostile and aggressive as he surely had his academic sights set on that prize.
Last I heard from him, he was trying to gather the trolls of the internet, and wanted them to unite in attacks and verbal abuse against Christians and mock them. (a link here from the first google result I found http://finkorswim.com/2012/03/29/richard-dawkins-urges-others-to-ridicule-and-show-contempt-for-religion/)
Now, what was it about nice guys finishing first? Is Dawkins not a nice guy, and thus destined to lose by his own words? Or was he wrong right from the start and evil shall prevail in the form of his own doing?
And I think that's a perfectly valid point. He's not calling on people to be trolls. He's just saying 'let's stop being so generous to ridiculous ideas'. And I agree with him. I think very, very few people *really* believe the things they profess to believe. They call it faith, which is just another word for a mental disconnect: believing something that you know to be irrational. I don't need to believe in my table. I can see the damn thing in front of me. I don't need to believe in evolution - the world is full of ample proofs of its existence. So if you profess to believe in something as idiotic as wine turning into blood, then yes, you deserve to be ridiculed for it. And if you *really* believe in it, then isn't that insanity?So when I meet somebody who claims to be religious, my first impulse is: ?I don?t believe you. I don?t believe you until you tell me do you really believe ? for example, if they say they are Catholic ? do you really believe that when a priest blesses a wafer it turns into the body of Christ? Are you seriously telling me you believe that? Are you seriously saying that wine turns into blood?? Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!
Don?t fall for the convention that we?re all too polite to talk about religion. Religion is not off the table. Religion is not off limits.
I´m not sure if the point is really that valid. What is being criticized is not really the core of christian belief. And I know transubstantiation is the official doctrine but you have to see it in its real context - transubstantiation in opposition to the Eucharist as, e.g. a simple commemoration. The transformation is still understood on a symbolic level (which does not mean it has only "symbolic" value in the sense we usually give to the word - I´m talking about symbols perceived as means that allow us to reach the transcendental). Also, the strict insistence on transubstantiation was without doubt part of a "political" struggle during the time of Reformation.Flatfrog said:And I think that's a perfectly valid point. He's not calling on people to be trolls. He's just saying 'let's stop being so generous to ridiculous ideas'. And I agree with him. I think very, very few people *really* believe the things they profess to believe. They call it faith, which is just another word for a mental disconnect: believing something that you know to be irrational. I don't need to believe in my table. I can see the damn thing in front of me. I don't need to believe in evolution - the world is full of ample proofs of its existence. So if you profess to believe in something as idiotic as wine turning into blood, then yes, you deserve to be ridiculed for it. And if you *really* believe in it, then isn't that insanity?
Edit: I just went back and read the whole speech. It really is a corker and I recommend it.
http://ladydifadden.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/transcript-of-richard-dawkins-speech-from-reason-rally-2012/
I am, of course, not trying to pick a fight. I just want to be sure you really fully respect Jesus as an agnostic.Mycroft Holmes said:Jesus Christ.
And hopefully to prevent this from turning into a religious discussion: I am an agnostic. I make no claims that he is or isn't divine. I make no claims that he is or isn't a real person historically rather than just an amalgamation of ideas and stories attributed to a name. For all intents and purposes, barring discovery of time travel, he is a real person historically speaking, and probably the most important Philosopher that has yet lived on this island we call Earth.
One could easily spend hours dissecting the philosophies and ideas attributed to him as well as his profound effect on religion and society. But he's my favorite philosopher for a much more limited reason than that. The birthing of an idea ignored for a long time before it was re-popularized by Count Leo Tolstoy in his Kingdom of God Essays. An idea that I sincerely hope continues to grow in popularity, as it has been, and changes the way we treat our fellow human beings.
Every single non-violent movement every pacifist has stemmed from Jesus' sermon on the mount speech. The idea that the only way to break the cycle of violence is to replace it with one of love. That we should turn the other cheek, to not back down but to not respond in kind to those who would hurt us. The US civil rights movement, the Indian independence movement, the mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, the velvet revolution, the Rosenstrasse protest in the heart of Nazi Berlin; are all heritage from that simple idea.
I think this is a really important point, but isn't it exactly the point he's making? He's asking the question:Jacques Joseph said:I´m not sure if the point is really that valid. What is being criticized is not really the core of christian belief. And I know transubstantiation is the official doctrine but you have to see it in its real context - transubstantiation in opposition to the Eucharist as, e.g. a simple commemoration.
I love your analysis. It's refreshing to see an acknowledgement that nothing can be absolutely certain, at least not from our limited human perception. I used to be an atheist; hell, I was an arrogant one at that. But the more I dived into science, the more I realized that while we can learn, codify, measure, and write run-on sentences, acting like we can ever know or even be certain of it all is pure arrogance. To quote a game that makes few other valid points (and yes that one book they took it from), "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." Or as I think of it, nothing is absolute and everything is possible. Damn, quantum physics hurts my brain. I won't go into what I believe now, but it's the only belief system I could Socratically justify.Jacques Joseph said:Well... Dawkins always seemed pretty agressive to me but then again, I never got really deeply involved with that question (I live in Europe in a country that is very atheistic in general so it always seemed a bit distant to me).
I´m not sure if the point is really that valid. What is being criticized is not really the core of christian belief. And I know transubstantiation is the official doctrine but you have to see it in its real context - transubstantiation in opposition to the Eucharist as, e.g. a simple commemoration. The transformation is still understood on a symbolic level (which does not mean it has only "symbolic" value in the sense we usually give to the word - I´m talking about symbols perceived as means that allow us to reach the transcendental). Also, the strict insistence on transubstantiation was without doubt part of a "political" struggle during the time of Reformation.Flatfrog said:And I think that's a perfectly valid point. He's not calling on people to be trolls. He's just saying 'let's stop being so generous to ridiculous ideas'. And I agree with him. I think very, very few people *really* believe the things they profess to believe. They call it faith, which is just another word for a mental disconnect: believing something that you know to be irrational. I don't need to believe in my table. I can see the damn thing in front of me. I don't need to believe in evolution - the world is full of ample proofs of its existence. So if you profess to believe in something as idiotic as wine turning into blood, then yes, you deserve to be ridiculed for it. And if you *really* believe in it, then isn't that insanity?
Edit: I just went back and read the whole speech. It really is a corker and I recommend it.
http://ladydifadden.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/transcript-of-richard-dawkins-speech-from-reason-rally-2012/
Neither is the real point literal belief in the creation of the world in seven days (allegoric interpretation, anyone?), for that matter. The real point should be belief in the existence of God - I mean, I know that is not the only thing a Christian believes in but again, see the context of the discussion, the opposing view is atheism, i.e. belief in the non-existence of God. That should be what is adressed, some wafer turning into the body of Christ or not has no relation to it whatsoever.
That´s a problem I have with a lot of those "new atheists" in general, they tend to criticize the most narrow-minded a fundamentalist form of religion. That in itself is perfectly OK and I´m the first to agree with them, but then they shouldn´t pretend to be criticizing religion as a whole or the existence of God (or a god?) because these are different matters.
Furthermore, belief is not only mental disconnect but a central part of how we perceive the world. Whatever your world-view, there are always unquestioned presumptions, or in other words, beliefs (I´d recommend reading Quine, which would probably be my favourite philosopher, to answer the OP ). Most of those unquestioned beliefs seem so absolutely obvious that it would be impossible to question them but that doesn´t necessarily make them true or "certain" (see Wittgenstein´s On Certainty, another favourite of mine). I´m not falling into total relativism here (neither are those authors but the argument to demonstrate that would be too long to expose here), just trying to say that it´s not so easy to go from faith to insanity (which, by the way, is also a non-trivial notion, formed mostly by the world-view of society and very easily abusable to oppress and silence the voices you do not like - see Foucault, although I´m not that familiar with him).