Phasmal said:
Ugh. To be honest I don't know why I bother with this kind of discussion, it always goes down the same.
Tired of feeling voiceless and powerless in what is supposed to be your own community?
More or less why I started getting more vocal. I even got very "comfortable" talking about some uncomfortable things. Granted, the air quotes are because I still sometimes want to throw up or hyperventilate, but if nobody says anything nothing gets changed.
Zenja said:
You don't care about my whole point.
You're right. I only care about the false claim used to invalidate others. But here's the thing. You can be annoyed all you want, you can say you have a problem with what I choose to respond to, but you are not entitled to a response from me, let alone in any format. You may not like that sexism is being brought up, but it's a very real and prominent example of the sort of shit that happens in nerd culture.
By the way, Marvel almost went Bankrupt.
Who denied that?
However, the main point I want to stress is that you actively ignored a part of my point that collaborated with the entire rest of my post.
You still haven't made a case for that.
Phasmal has been great in structuring her responses as responses
I'm not Phasmal, and I'm not going to emulate her because you prefer her organisation.
I am not placing the blame at women.
No, you're not. You're asking that the harassed party share blame in their own harassment. This is victim blaming, the notion that the wounded party had some part in it. What I said was and remains true.
That is why I keep pointing at StatusNil's post.
Repetition will not make your point more correct or more true. Blame sharing is very beneficial to the harrasser, the bully, the one who instigates. And you can continue to say I didn't read his post, but the fact is I'm simply not interested in discussing someone else's post with you. Again, there's this idea that if I'm not agreeing with it, I must have not read it or ignored it. Neither you nor he are entitled to anyone addressing it.
For example I own 4 guitars to Guitar Hero in my closet. I own Guitar Hero Aerosmith and Guitar Hero 3 for PS3. I havent played Rock Band until recently when a friend got it. I did play Guitar Hero World Tour at my brothers house a lot though. I like those games, I wasn't railing on anything. I merely said that they helped push video games into the mainstream and show that games aren't just things for kids. I also own CoD: BlOps, BlOps2, Ghosts, but I got rid of CoD4 regrettably thinking that no one play it once MW2 came out because at that time CoD4's servers were already practically empty. However, there is no denying that CoD took gaming to the mainstream audiences. That doesn't mean I hate it, that means I can recognize its significance in pop culture.
Right, except you didn't do that. You didn't identify them for pop culture value, but used them as shorthand for a problem that you can't really establish exists.
I am merely pointing out that one isolated scenario is not the whole picture.
No, you tried to pass the buck from the harassers. Since this is larger than just me, this new argument isn't even a counter to mine. There's a larger picture. Nerds as bullies, abusers, harassers. The permissiveness towards that group in overall nerd culture. The irony is you're making a case for nerds to be treated the way you don't like. Telling girls to assume zero social skills, show empathy because they've been wronged. These are the exact reason nerds get accused of being manchilren and whatnot. Because we're asked to assume zero social skills, that nerds just can't handle functioning in real society with civilised people and women, and then when that assumption is made, people get offended.
And one of the reasons sexism is so relevant here is that we are automatically othered. When you pictured Phasmal in your mind, you suggested that she was confident and even made a Z-Snap reference based on little information other than that she was a girl.
The solution is to set a standard. If you ask us to treat you like children, or treat you like you don't know how to behave around women, then you have no grounds to complain if we do. This is the way we (because I am part of this group whether they want me or not) are viewed, and you're telling people to assume it. Assume the worst.
If you decide that your part is to throw more hostility into the environment
Which one of us declared we were at war? Remind me, because I think I was the one who said I just wanted to play my games and enjoy my media without people yelling at me because I present with a female username. I think it was you who kept describing a war.
But don't expect me to then believe that THEY are the sole source of the hostility and that you are innocent.
See, this makes it look like you're looking for a reason to justify harassment. You did the same, again, when Phasmal simply recounted a story about something that happened. I forget the exact claim, but you said that she was making a big deal about the event when all she did was recount to you an event that has happened to a friend.
A female username is all it takes to be harassed a good chunk of the time. You don't have to speak, you don't have to even join a game or play for any amount of time. Unless you think my soul is being broadcast through the net, but only when I use a female name, then there is no argument, there is no refuge. Harassment doesn't require two sides to tango.
Also, it does go away when I go with a male username. And the general consensus on this site is that presumed male me is a lot less nice than "me" me. I used to balk at that notion, that I might have changed the way I act, but...I always feel like I'm walking a tightrope. I get it. Your baseline is "male." You don't get how awesome it can be to be perceived as a dude in nerd culture. That's because you don't have the experience of being constantly othered, constantly harassed. So maybe listen to those who do.
Good advice, don't you think?
Sure, it's why I suggested it. The problem is, you're still trying to turn this around on me and it doesn't work. Honestly, I suspect you really feel you're the wronged party, even though you described nerd culture's relationship with women as war, but that's the thing. I'm not at war with anyone but the Lizard people, and they're more hipster than nerd. Also, they're technically avians. But I honestly believe this is being treated as a war. But not by me. And I doubt by much of anyone on my "side." This is how we end up "othered," though.
Not being harassed or violated or treated like crap my people who claim they don't like those behaviours (unless you're cool with being bullied or beaten up, in which case fair enough) is not an unreasonable desire. You want peace and understanding? It's time to reflect on the attitude that this is a war. That nerds are under attack by "the other" to which I always seem to belong.
I am affording you empathy but I am still going to tell you that I disagree with you.
Except you're telling em to assume that when people threaten to rape me, that I should assume they have zero social skills and afford them empathy. You're not saying "well, Amy might have actually been raped in the past and has spent years and years working on the associated PTSD and this might be actually damaging to her."
And I don't get a cookie for ignoring them or laughing it off. I just get more of the same. This is taken as permissiveness.
You're not showing sympathy for me constantly being belittled in terms of my technical or trivial knowledge or the dismissal of me based on a screen name rather than aptitude. You're telling me to consider that I might have wronged these people I've just met, or worse. That I should show them understanding because they've been belittled by women before.
Except I've been harassed before. Constantly. More than enough to want to hide behind an assumed name. That's the problem with this model. It doesn't work once you factor in both sides. Because culturally, we are constantly asked to put up with this crap, and to consider the boys' feelings. In an equal system, you wouldn't be telling me that if I decide to be hostile, then I shouldn't expect you to believe me when I say I didn't have a hand in the harassment. My response after the fact, in fact, should be quite normal. I'm as human as nerd boys are. I have social anxieties and phobias and I'm in therapy for those, too. But you shifted the burden to the point that if I fight back, then I wasn't an innocent victim. Except I don't go on the offense. I'm not the one going onto a server and declaring an entire gender can't play video games, or demanding dick pics, or threatening to rape people I've just met. This is a pretty one-sided phenomenon.
This is not what actual empathy looks like.
DC then created a campaign where fans could vote for Todd's death and they treated it as fan service.
That's only part of the story.
There is a big difference in "You destroyed my main interest in your franchise" ourage and "you need to change your franchise to MY tastes despite current fans" outrage.
I imagine the difference you're thinking of isn't "one's a strawman."
Again, Trek got changed to meet the racist attitudes of its time. Themes Roddenberry wanted in led to boycotts and lost affiliates. Except nobody seems to care that this sort of activism happens all the time. Rationalise it any way you want, but this isn't about changing continuity.
You act like I received such respect. I have always been able to count on 1 hand my friends who shared my interests. Of those, It was usually 1 common interest. I got whatever respect I gave which was, essentially, politeness. When I was rude, it resulted in negative behavior towards me. If you give respect, people tend to give it. Sometimes you have to give it away for a while. Unfortunately, when it comes to online there is always a chance of yet another person quoting you to tell you why you are wrong. This is why I will probably be ending my part in this discussion and backing away slowly. We are now in territory I don't feel this discussion needed to go.
Respect was your word, not mine. Call it what you want. What you're describing is not what I have described. You only had one interest in common with your friends? Try being a dyed-in-the-wool geek and being told to leave because you're not legit enough.
When you were rude, negativity happened to you. What I described, what you ignored, was negativiy for existing. You're preaching things that we've been asked to do and it doesn't work. Rather than listening and empathising, you choose to lecture. You downplay our experiences.
Original geeks don't own it and I don't advocate that.
You were the one who brought up the "here first" idea. You asked us to understand they wanted to be recognised for that. The only reason I responded is because that door should swing both ways. Now you're trying to say you don't advocate it. That's fine. I don't give a crap. What isn't fine is that you wanted us to recognise them for false accomplishments when no such recognition will be afforded us. It's a goalpost shift to make this about how original geeks down own it. Maybe stop saying that we should afford them the respect they crave. And maybe start preaching to them that if they give a little respect, they can get some.
You want empathy for people doing bad things. Start by preaching empathy for the people they do bad things to.
I think you have me mistaken for someone else.
Then someone else on here is named Zenja.
