Your thoughts on... Nerd/Geek culture of today.

[sumanoskae]

Like every form of arbitrary human categorization, I think these terms are more trouble than they're worth. If these ideas are necessary for you to understand yourself or your fellow man, you're simply lacking in confidence and insight; you're either too simple or too impatient to respect the complexities of individuality.

Besides, in the modern era "Geek" culture is practically inseparable from mainstream culture. The biggest show on TV is Game of Thrones; the most successful film franchise in recent years is The Avengers; everybody and their brother plays Zleda and/or Mario.

Fantasy, comic books, video games, none of these things are niche anymore. Granted, there are still a great deal many games, comics, books and films that ARE niche, but the traits that used to qualify something as being "Made for nerds" are no longer a reliable way to gauge popularity.

There's no specific cultural corner for people who consume these things because fucking everybody does.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.

I'm merely suggesting that the "toxic" reputation that you're worried about getting tainted by is something that you yourself are promulgating by your own statements on the subject, which might not be as definitive as you clearly think.

Recognizing toxicity in a subculture is hardly the same as spreading it, anymore than acknowledging racism is still a problem makes racism more of a problem. Denial may make for good appearances, but it doesn't fix anything.

But but but...something something "creating the divide" something something "as bad as, if not worse".

 

[Jux]

But but but...something something "creating the divide" something something "as bad as, if not worse".

Indeed. I would never deny that there are people that ascribe to social justice that are assholes. Or even that people with a good heart do the wrong things to try and further social justice. But as far as I've seen, as someone that hangs in those circles, people are pretty forgiving, and accepting, and willing to help others learn when there is real earnestness.

I just don't see that in gaming, or in the wider sense, nerd culture. I think part of it is aggrieved entitlement, especially among the 'old guard' as it were. For a long time gaming and nerdy stuff weren't 'in' things to do. Now that they are, there is a lot of gatekeeping about who is allowed to like this stuff, and only for x y z reasons. It's fucking childish, like, 'oh, you didn't suffer for your nerdy hobbies like I did, you should show respect to me for 'paving the way'.' Self appointed man baby kings.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think part of it is aggrieved entitlement, especially among the 'old guard' as it were. For a long time gaming and nerdy stuff weren't 'in' things to do. Now that they are, there is a lot of gatekeeping about who is allowed to like this stuff, and only for x y z reasons. It's fucking childish, like, 'oh, you didn't suffer for your nerdy hobbies like I did, you should show respect to me for 'paving the way'.' Self appointed man baby kings.

Possibly, yes, but IMHO, it's just that having taken it doesn't necessarily make someone less likely to dish it out. Any number of people campaign to end persecution against themselves, and fight people trying to stop persecution aimed at others, after all, and this is the same in a lesser way. Excepting when serious prejudices come into it, of course.

 

[StatusNil]

The saying is 'hoisted by ones own petard', which... doesn't really apply here. I haven't had anything blow up in my face fortunately, as the 'social justice community', if such a thing exists, is leagues less toxic than nerd culture.

I'm merely suggesting that the "toxic" reputation that you're worried about getting tainted by is something that you yourself are promulgating by your own statements on the subject, which might not be as definitive as you clearly think.

Recognizing toxicity in a subculture is hardly the same as spreading it, anymore than acknowledging racism is still a problem makes racism more of a problem. Denial may make for good appearances, but it doesn't fix anything.

But but but...something something "creating the divide" something something "as bad as, if not worse".

I get it, this is supposed to be read in a silly parody version of my voice.

Look, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth like that, or at least put some more thought into it than "something something"... "something something". I mean, I do try to make the effort to communicate something other than stock expressions arranged in a meaningless drone. It stings for that to go unrecognized.

Not to mention your Vaudevillian take on me seriously misses the point. The problem is not "creating the divide", it is demanding a unity. That's what's happening, the regimenting of "fandom" into a pseudo-community that takes its cues from the culture industrial-critical complex. That's what the "toxicity" that everyone is lamenting is: people who prefer their own niches dragged out into the Communal Safe Space to play community. And of course the price of maladjustment to the Empire of "Geekdom" is public vilification and ostracism.

Like in many things, the mania for "connectedness" made feasible by the Internet is leading to a centralization of power and a bureaucracy of leaders and followers. And it seems that the central assumption that it is being built on is that a culture must be forced into a "community", and one with rather rigid social controls at that. Which of course is very convenient for the industrial interests looking to make a profit off that "community", provided they coordinate their campaigns with the emerging commissariat, formerly known as "the enthusiast press".

Me, I remember when the fruits of the culture grew a little wilder and freer. Sure, they were products to purchase, but at least you didn't have to move to Stepford Village to be allowed to sample them.

 

[Something Amyss]

I dunno, I disagree with others in the social justice movement all the time, I can't ever remember being labeled any of those things just for disagreeing with someone. Of course, I wasn't being any of those things either, so maybe that had something to do with it. If you want to talk about the problems you see with the social justice movement, dial back the hyperbole first.

I mean, it does happen (I've been branded a transphobe...irony!), but it seems more an issue of addressing specific assholes rather than a systemic issue.

And the fact that so many are defending toxic behaviour shows that is is, in fact, a systemic issue.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

One of the biggest problems I have with geek culture is the fact that people who are part of the culture shit on the more rabid members and make the whole culture look aweful when its a few pinheads combined with the usual internet trolls that go ballistic.

Every subculture has its cunts, but much like Black Lives Matter, Feminism, MRAs, etc, the moderate voices give the public reason to shit on the whole movement/culture by shitting on it themselves or by not calling out erratic behaviour and distancing themselves from them. The latter option lets the media control the narrative and then those who didn't call out the bad portions of the community get up in arms with how they're perceived.

We've gotta stop being so willing to shit on ourselves due to the actions of a loud minority. With this Ghostbusters trailer nonsense, we as a community accepted responsibility for the actions of people who aren't geeks that disliked the trailer when Paul Feig complained. We need to stop doing that. We need to stop saying "yeah geek culture sucks" when articles written by blogs masquerading as news websites call geeks garbage. Its not geek culture's fault that the trailer looked like crap, its the studios.

 

[Something Amyss]

One of the biggest problems I have with geek culture is the fact that people who are part of the culture shit on the more rabid members and make the whole culture look aweful when its a few pinheads combined with the usual internet trolls that go ballistic.

Nobody buys the "third party trolls" line.

Every subculture has its cunts, but much like Black Lives Matter, Feminism, MRAs, etc, the moderate voices give the public reason to shit on the whole movement/culture by shitting on it themselves or by not calling out erratic behaviour and distancing themselves from them. The latter option lets the media control the narrative and then those who didn't call out the bad portions of the community get up in arms with how they're perceived.

Then why don't you spend more time calling out that behaviour? Because right now, you're downplaying it instead. Oh, it's just a few people. Oh, internet trolls. And now the media's being blamed because people who actually do call out shitty behaviour call it out.

Or, you know, there are systemic issues in nerd culture that need to be addressed, and people who do that are called "SJws" or "white knights" by the so-called moderates.

We've gotta stop being so willing to shit on ourselves due to the actions of a loud minority.

Yeah...about that. Here's the thing. I am constantly reminded that there is no "we." I am constantly told I am not a part of this community. I'm not the one doing the distancing or the shitting on here. And it happens while "moderates" say and do nothing. Except come out and defend the trolls and assholes whenever such behaviour does get called out. You call it a minority, but it's everywhere and the only people who want to do anything about it have become fed up with apologetics.

Instead of chastising people for admitting it sucks, maybe make it something actually worth saving. You don't like being associated with assholes? Awesome. Tell them their conduct is not okay. The community could use more positive voices. Except the positive voices are cast out. Let me tell you, it's not fun being an outsider in your own hobbies.

With this Ghostbusters trailer nonsense, we as a community accepted responsibility for the actions of people who aren't geeks that disliked the trailer when Paul Feig complained.

Right, remind me who was freaking out? I didn't see a lot of gearhead news about this. Not a lot of sports publications picked up on it and freaked out. So where were the histrionic reactions coming from? Geeks. A community prone to histrionic overreactions and theatrics.

Its not geek culture's fault that the trailer looked like crap, its the studios.

You're right. It was a bad trailer. That's not geek culture's fault. What is geek culture's fault was the massive hissyfit that followed.

 

[Silvanus]

Every subculture has its cunts, but much like Black Lives Matter, Feminism, MRAs, etc, the moderate voices give the public reason to shit on the whole movement/culture by shitting on it themselves or by not calling out erratic behaviour and distancing themselves from them. The latter option lets the media control the narrative and then those who didn't call out the bad portions of the community get up in arms with how they're perceived.

Wait, I'm confused; at first, you're criticising the moderate voices for condemning the worse elements, but then you're criticising them for not calling out bad behaviour.

Which is it? Should we criticise those elements, or keep shtum?

Letting dickheads be dickheads does not do the community any favours. It merely gives the impression that we don't care, or worse, condone it. We should very much criticise people who act poorly, and it shouldn't matter one jot whether they have the same interests as us. We are not tarnished by association.

 

[Ogoid]

I get it, this is supposed to be read in a silly parody version of my voice.

Look, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth like that, or at least put some more thought into it than "something something"... "something something". I mean, I do try to make the effort to communicate something other than stock expressions arranged in a meaningless drone. It stings for that to go unrecognized.

Not to mention your Vaudevillian take on me seriously misses the point. The problem is not "creating the divide", it is demanding a unity. That's what's happening, the regimenting of "fandom" into a pseudo-community that takes its cues from the culture industrial-critical complex. That's what the "toxicity" that everyone is lamenting is: people who prefer their own niches dragged out into the Communal Safe Space to play community. And of course the price of maladjustment to the Empire of "Geekdom" is public vilification and ostracism.

Like in many things, the mania for "connectedness" made feasible by the Internet is leading to a centralization of power and a bureaucracy of leaders and followers. And it seems that the central assumption that it is being built on is that a culture must be forced into a "community", and one with rather rigid social controls at that. Which of course is very convenient for the industrial interests looking to make a profit off that "community", provided they coordinate their campaigns with the emerging commissariat, formerly known as "the enthusiast press".

Me, I remember when the fruits of the culture grew a little wilder and freer. Sure, they were products to purchase, but at least you didn't have to move to Stepford Village to be allowed to sample them.

Yup, all of this.

I, too, remember those days, when reading comics or books I wanted to read, playing the games I wanted to play and watching the films and series I wanted to watch was entirely up to me, and there didn't necessarily need to be anyone else involved (which was, by and large, why I was into those things to begin with).

Whatever happened to those days?

Ah, yes - nothing at all, as it turns out. I can still do all of those things, and so can other people; and while talking about those things with said other people might, occasionally, be interesting or fun, it's hardly a requirement of any sort when it comes to buying a movie ticket, going into a library, or (if I'm feeling especially misanthropic in any given day) accessing Amazon.com.

Maybe - and this seems to be a rather radical and unusual position on my part, but I stand by it - "Nerd Culture" doesn't have a problem for the sole reason that there is no "Nerd Culture" to speak of. Maybe "The Community" doesn't have a problem because there doesn't exist something as a "Community".

Maybe all there are, are mediums, genres and titles the audience of which are traditionally "nerds". Maybe there are "toxic" people in that audience because there are "toxic people" in any large enough demographic segment, and maybe those people are not a problem with some collective "Community". Maybe those people are those people's problem, and the rest of us doesn't have anything to do with them.

Maybe. Just maybe.

That's what I think.

 

[GrumbleGrump]

As far as I know, it was sort of coopted when being a geek turned into something cool, inevitably ruining it by the mass influx of cunts. As for there is people, there is a constant "χ" concentration for cunts (referred to as [χ]). Since [χ] is set for any given concentration of humans, the great inlfux into geek culture caused a great osmotic event, which caused the phenomena discussed here.

 

[Terminal Marque]

You're not nerds and geeks, you're just people who play games.

 

[Satinavian]

Can we please diferentiate between geek culture in RL and geek culture on the internet?

From my personaly experience, when i go to cons here in germany i see all kinds of people... religion, skin color, looks.. and non of that matters. People are friendly, engaging and welcoming.. no matter if youre a gamer, cosplayer, role player, blizzard fan... not once have i had a single negative experience on any of the cons i went to. (kept for hour long waiting lines infront of the next big AAA EA blockblunder... looking at you battlefront!)

Obviously can't speak for Germany, but I've read a lot of complaints about cons in other areas. Occasionally in regards with racism, but usually sexism, women going being sexually harassed or assaulted is brought up all the time, usually in regards to a lack of action about it.

A couple of years ago, when some US convention got media attention for sexist/racist events, the German media and some feminist organizations took a closer look at German cons. But they could not find anything really worth complaining about. ( Well, the feminists still complained, but pretty much were ignored for listing sexist events like "holding a door")

Maybe the US geek culture really is different. It is possible. German geek culture has always had a sizable number of women. While still male-dominand it is not really seen as male domain. Also German geek culture is slightly left leaning and probably less racist than the average population. As many geek media require foreign language skills, geek culture is also more open to foreign culures/experiences.

When it comes to online geek culture, well... Germans have a reputation of not using social media as much as many other nationalities. And that is certainly true for me, so i really don't know. But while i regularly hear about stupid toxic twitter and facebook stuff in German that is pretty much always about politics. I can't remember anything like a German language Gamergate (Not that i actually know a lot about that one. Nearly missed it by not doing social media and it never being posted about in any German gaming related site i visited)

So yes. i would say, at least from Germany geek culture doesn't look very toxic. I can't even remember a real life fandom argument with actual insults. People just acnowledge the difference and move on. Sometimes you get heated discussion about "what is canon", but those are always inside a fandom and not exclusionary. And even those tend not to be dominated by insults.

Then again, soccer, well, two weeks ago our mayor tried to forbid fans of a team to enter the town because of all the arson from last match between those teams. (It was obviusly turned down instantly by courts) So, yes, we have our own toxic communities for sure.
There are also enough sexism complaints for other convention-like events. Most prominent are automobile exhibitions where advertisers still like to appeal to the perceived manlyness of really powerful and expensive new cars with lots of gadgets.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Every subculture has its cunts, but much like Black Lives Matter, Feminism, MRAs, etc, the moderate voices give the public reason to shit on the whole movement/culture by shitting on it themselves or by not calling out erratic behaviour and distancing themselves from them. The latter option lets the media control the narrative and then those who didn't call out the bad portions of the community get up in arms with how they're perceived.

Wait, I'm confused; at first, you're criticising the moderate voices for condemning the worse elements, but then you're criticising them for not calling out bad behaviour.

Which is it? Should we criticise those elements, or keep shtum?

Letting dickheads be dickheads does not do the community any favours. It merely gives the impression that we don't care, or worse, condone it. We should very much criticise people who act poorly, and it shouldn't matter one jot whether they have the same interests as us. We are not tarnished by association.

I could have worded that better.

What I meant be critiquing moderates for condemning the worst elements is that I hate seeing them parrot headlines from Buzzfeed/Kotaku style articles that are misinformed.

Criticizing the bad elements should be done, but shitting on the whole community in a broad sense like the culture critics do in a Tipper Gore style manner doesn't help at all. It re-enforces the bad image Geeks get and gives faux vindication to those culture critics.

For example, seeing Geeks say "fuck Geek culture" when reports go about a hate campaign to downvote the new Ghostbusters trailer irritates me. That trailer was already the most downvoted trailer in YT history with 600,000+ downvotes, and one article grabs a YT comment that says "lets make it 1 million" calling that a campaign.

Its also fair to blame the bad reporting done by some websites, but as a community we know by now which online publications are using the anti-Geek culture clickbait titles to make money, so using their articles as a base of critique really sets me off because its maliciously untrue at worst and ignorant of the internet's rage culture at best.

I've gone at people who harassed others outside the culture and those who've gone after our culture, at this point I think the people who damage us most are the Geeks among us who shit on us based on false pretenses.

 

[Gengisgame]

Every subculture has its cunts, but much like Black Lives Matter, Feminism, MRAs, etc, the moderate voices give the public reason to shit on the whole movement/culture by shitting on it themselves or by not calling out erratic behaviour and distancing themselves from them. The latter option lets the media control the narrative and then those who didn't call out the bad portions of the community get up in arms with how they're perceived.

Wait, I'm confused; at first, you're criticising the moderate voices for condemning the worse elements, but then you're criticising them for not calling out bad behaviour.

Which is it? Should we criticise those elements, or keep shtum?

Letting dickheads be dickheads does not do the community any favours. It merely gives the impression that we don't care, or worse, condone it. We should very much criticise people who act poorly, and it shouldn't matter one jot whether they have the same interests as us. We are not tarnished by association.

It's a good thing to dissuade a toxic environment but one thing needs to be made very clear.

No one is in anyway responsible for the behaviour of others in nerd culture, it is in no way the same as BLM, Feminism or MRA, it is not a political group or even a group that most members may share the same beliefs in.

On the narrative front you can't do nothing about that, if 20% or 0.0001% of a community misbehaves it's irrelevant, they will take the comments they need and go with that. Unless they provide some decent stats or reasonable proof that the community is responsible then your being played if you blame the community.

All you need to think about is whether a community fosters a certain attitude and unlike certain political groups the worst geek culture really has is tribalism between consoles, childish but still ultimately harmless.

Problems come from other beliefs seeping in, an "I want something" can become an "I'm owed something", "I wish this thing wasn't in the game because I don't like it" can become "this thing shouldn't be the game because it's morally wrong".

 

[Dragonlayer]

Snip

...And? The USA doesn't have widespread honor killings and doesn't force women to wear certain kinds of clothing, but bringing that up doesn't make all the problems the USA does have with sexism any less relevant. It's the Children Starving in Africa argument. There are always worse problems somewhere else, and pointing that out doesn't prove anything.

No. No not really. Gaming culture, which seems to exist primarily online, is something that turns hostile and vapid the second the echo chamber is breached.

And therefore we should perhaps keep our heads, and not indulge in needless hyperbole that transforms some internet dickheads into the purest incarnation of all that is vile and unholy, who lust for our misery. You'll also note that at no point did I argue that the far worse problems of other fandoms absolve us of our own, only that I was expressing a certain amount of disbelief - though perhaps that's the wrong word for it - that so many nerds and geeks on this site openly want nerd/geek culture to rot in hell.

I also disagree with this assertion of yours. To be certain, there are echo chambers a'plenty on the internet: there is no finer way to get a echo chamber going then the anonymous medium of the internet, which by its very nature basically strips all meaningful consequence away from negative actions. But these chambers exist regardless of their political/ideological/interest affiliation, and I disagree with the notion implied by so many here that nerd/geek culture is somehow uniquely abhorrent in this regard. Look at the Escapist for instance: do we have our share of twattery? Definitely! But is this site a rampant cesspool of echo chamber infused toxicity? Look at the threads on the Overwatch beta, where opinions run the gauntlet from "FUCKING GOOD FUN!" to "Man, this sucks" without undue hostility - hell, look at this very thread, where we apparently have a serious disconnection between portions of the community (at least those who bothered to make their opinions visible by commentating), and I'd say we've managed to avoid becoming "hostile" and "vapid". Yeah, threads about sex and race in gaming get heated, but are they worthy of the "absolute worst shit lords imaginable/anti-social pathetic insecure manchildren" moniker?

Now I'm fully aware the Escapist is not representative of nerd/geek culture, and I'm also aware that in my good fortune to be a fairly privileged heterosexual white male, I'm not as "vulnerable" to the worst aspects of it (in the sense that I am far less likely to have to put up with more "targeted" abuse then say, a female or sexual minority person). I understand and accept that therefore, my views are probably a bit coloured. But I ascribe that to the internet as a breeding ground for scum more than any inherent sin of this culture. I know folk 'round these parts don't care much for anecdotal evidence, but every day I see dozens of people wearing pop-culture t-shirts on the way to university, on campus and on the way back. I overhear conversations about anime and games in lessons and on the streets. I can strike up a conversation with complete strangers about whom I know nothing about, purely on the basis that their wearing a Bloodborne shirt and I'm wearing my Bioshock one. I see trailers for new games and comic book based movies every day on mainstream TV, and even if I don't care about the particular subjects being advertised, I think its bloody fantastic that gaming and general nerd/geek stuff has penetrated "normal" culture so effectively, and looks set to only grow bigger in the future. We've come a long way from the days of video-games being the domain of the maladjusted anti-social basement loser, just itching for his very own Columbine, and despite the shit we still have to deal with, from within and without, I for one am glad this culture exists.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Uh, you're calling for no hyperbole in the same sentence that you say that people are calling geek culture unholy. Which they are not. You're sending mixed messages. More like the idea of it. Let's be frank, this is all blown out of proportion. Geek culture? Culture? A culture is a way of life. Are we really saying that our entire lives are dedicated to these things? I just...no. I love gaming, but it isn't a way of freaking life. And the arrogance and dick heads that come with it...oh my.

Yes there are plenty echo chambers on the internet, but like I said before, geek "culture' primarily exists online. Yes other echo chambers exist, but with geek "Culture" they make up the very core of it. Uh, we've avoid managing to become hostile in this thread? A moderator said some less than pleasant things about geek "culture" and got several downright outraged and not exactly friendly replies. And the Overwatch beta thread isn't hotile? Well that's a small miracle, we finally have an Overwatch thread that isn't about censorship and SJWs. That's got to be the first in a year. Yes I'll admit it isn't always hostile, but I have to say it feels like the core of it is. "Absolute worse-" Did I say that?

Yeah the general rule of thumb is that the Escapist is considered one of the better websites out there. Which makes me laugh bitterly. My time on the old Bungie forums turned very unpleasant very fast before I migrated here. Ok I'll make a concession. Meeting up with geeks off the net tends to be a fairly pleasant affair. The problem there is that, while idle conversations can easily happen, unless people make the effort to get to know other geeks better, which they can only reasonably do with a handful of people, the majority of the interaction of geek "culture" happens online. The debates, the arguments, the voting, the crowfunding. And all of that can be very bitter and makes me not want to call myself a geek or a gamer. We've come a long way? Yes we have. And we have a long way to go still.

 

[sageoftruth]

I have some choice words for the people who think geek culture should be "killed", but I won't voice them here, because it will only end in me being perma banned.

To anyone who reads this; If you really, truly, believe that the core of our community deserves to disappear, then you are the reason for the toxicity. The very idea of it serves nothing else than to spread misery and negativity, so by supporting it, you are making things worse. You're not being a better person than anyone else, you are actively being worse.

That is the most diplomatic way I can say it. This thread makes me genuinly miserable and angry and despite my support of free speech and thought, I hope it gets locked. If people really want to discuss this, I recommend they go to NEOgaf, Kotaku or Polygon, they are far more tolerant of this sort of discussion.

I'd encourage people to support their claim or opinion with reason, but I don't think it's possible for this particular topic. It smells like an agenda more than anything else...

Addendum:
I followed my gut instinct and googled "nerd culture should die" and it's just a variation of "gamers are over". It's antagonistic to the extreme and and exceptionally poor discussion to have, supported by the very kind of biased journalism and movements that serve a particular agenda - In short, I'm flagging this thread.

I just took a peek into Neogaf. Not bad. It was just a peek, but I've got my hopes up. So long, Escapist. I'll stop by when the next ZP video comes out.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I'll be completely honest here. I do try to be positive, understanding, etc., towards other people. I'm not a racist, I'm not a misogynistic dinosaur, and if I were to be homophobic, I'd have to start by lynching myself.

All that said, to the people talking about how those who feel that the community is toxic needs to just be positive and fight against it, how? How are we supposed to rise against the "toxic" community? Again, I try to be positive at most times (not all, and most of the times I'm not, I'm in the wrong and taking out personal issues on others), but what do I get for posting my opinion? Indifference if it agrees with others, and multiple quotes telling me I'm wrong for not agreeing with them, often with namecalling. In any case, trying to debate is useless, because like many people online, the ones making claims don't actually want a debate, they want support.

Is it wrong? Not necessarily. There are some things that shouldn't be debatable, like "is bullying wrong?" The problem I have is when the debate is about something totally subjective, like the quality of a game, but there is still only one "right" answer. It gets to the point where I, personally, just start feeling like "Why bother?"

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

You're not nerds and geeks, you're just people who play games.

That probably works better. Then people can drop the stupid baggage that comes with those words and stop pretending the chip on their shoulder is reasonable.