Your thoughts on... Nerd/Geek culture of today.

Erttheking

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Are we really pulling the "Geeks were bullied" card? I was bullied when I was in high school. I have an older friend that was bullied in school. We both chose to not continue the vicious cycle. If you were bullied in school and if you're using it as an excuse for how geeks act nowaday...it's over. It's the past. Let it go.
 

Something Amyss

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Phasmal said:
EDIT: I'm clearly missing something here, but when you're having a discussion with women about nerd culture and their relationship to it, I don't think 'have you seen Mean Girls' is a great jumping-off point.
The irony is that he's talking about the way media portrays geek culture influencing the perception, and seems to be operating off a perception informed by media. Cultivation theory shaping an explanation of cultivation theory. Hope that clarifies.

Also, you're only 26? Jesus, people, stop making me feel old.

erttheking said:
Are we really pulling the "Geeks were bullied" card? I was bullied when I was in high school. I have an older friend that was bullied in school. We both chose to not continue the vicious cycle. If you were bullied in school and if you're using it as an excuse for how geeks act nowaday...it's over. It's the past. Let it go.
I've been "bullied" nearly to death. It left me with a very low tolerance for bullies and bullying. And to be honest, I've never really got the other side of that coin. I've never got the mentality that "I was the victim, so let me make someone else the victim." Because that someone else is a human being. It seems like basic empathy to not do things to others that you don't want done to you.

Wrex Brogan said:
...so it's just sheer magical coincidence it's called 'Fake Gamer Girls' rather than 'Fake Geeks' or 'Fake Gamer Guys', yeah? Nothing gendered about that at all.
But it's totally not gendered because anyone can be a fake geek girl. Is it our fault that so many of them happen to be girls?

Or that our constant tests on subjects target predominantly women, thereby greatly skewing any outcome?

Besides, how the fuck do you even be a 'genuine' geek? Pretty sure the... for lack of a better word 'requirements' for being one is 'Did you like this thing? Are you interested in this thing? Yes? Welcome to the club!'. It's about as exclusive as a public toilet, so gatekeeping based on gender and 'genuineness' really makes no sense.
Especially with how broad "geek" and "nerd" are in the first place. It makes a lot of the requirements look rather arbitrary. Because, well, because they are.

Anyway, I quoted you after ert because I suspect a lot of the same stuff is in play. "I was excluded, so now I will exclude" seems to be a common motivator.
 

Phasmal

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Something Amyss said:
Phasmal said:
EDIT: I'm clearly missing something here, but when you're having a discussion with women about nerd culture and their relationship to it, I don't think 'have you seen Mean Girls' is a great jumping-off point.
The irony is that he's talking about the way media portrays geek culture influencing the perception, and seems to be operating off a perception informed by media. Cultivation theory shaping an explanation of cultivation theory. Hope that clarifies.

Also, you're only 26? Jesus, people, stop making me feel old.
Well technically I'm still 25 for another ten days but when it gets this close to my birthday I round up. (Not to mention my grandad keeps saying I'm gonna be turning 27, to the point where I actually started to doubt my own age, but yeah I'm definitely gonna be 26).

And yeah, people get so weird about this whole women thing, we're supposed to see every nerd dude as a fragile person who was bullied while at the same time all women are just this mish-mash of stereotypes that function as a voodoo doll in the shape of every girl who ignored nerd boys in school.

... I'm really wondering what part of Mean Girls exactly I'm supposed to be applying to geek culture.
 

McElroy

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For some time I've been a nerd when compared to the average fella while being a relatable, approachable mainstream dude to the real deep zone nerds. Personally I haven't noticed mistreatment (barring imageboards), and I mean specifically from sour nerds or something like that. I treat newbies as newbies, that's for sure; I don't get excited if someone beats baby's first video game or the like. However, I do express reserved interest. Sometimes people overstep and I think some ridicule is warranted in those cases (like making a #geekgirl post on Facebook, though of course public mockery is never cool).

It doesn't take a mentalist to figure out how people treat video gaming from the way they talk about it (at least face-to-face). I really dislike the typical "geeky" gushing about games and blockbuster films and will do my best to try to turn it down politely for the betterment of humankind. Playing 200 hours of vanilla Skyrim should be met with shame (or just nonchalantly changing the subject if it comes up). Anyway, let the newbies be newbies for a little while, or a long while, it depends.

Whatever defensiveness I have I hide in my elitism. Works for now.

EDIT: The serious vs ironic enjoyment of all these silly things is an interesting point. I avoid most anime and family cartoons on purpose, because the storytelling and presentation seems to be made for people who find it more comfortable to stare at superexpressive faces on characters who hurry to spill their feelings out loud. Even more importantly I recognize I was like that myself when I keenly watched MLP a couple of years ago.
 

Ryan Minns

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It's more open and accepting than it ever has been. I like seeing the younger ones eyes light up whenever they get a chance to to share what they love and how much more likely it is these days for the listener to be genuinely interested. There seems to be a place for everyone and with the internet so available to many it's even easier to find people who share your thoughts and likes.
 

Something Amyss

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Phasmal said:
Well technically I'm still 25 for another ten days but when it gets this close to my birthday I round up. (Not to mention my grandad keeps saying I'm gonna be turning 27, to the point where I actually started to doubt my own age, but yeah I'm definitely gonna be 26).
Oh god, you're almost exactly a decade younger than me. *dies*

And yeah, people get so weird about this whole women thing, we're supposed to see every nerd dude as a fragile person who was bullied while at the same time all women are just this mish-mash of stereotypes that function as a voodoo doll in the shape of every girl who ignored nerd boys in school.
And t the same time, we're faking our way into nerd culture because....

No, I've never really understood that. What benefit is there, especially given the presumed antipathy to said nerd boys?

... I'm really wondering what part of Mean Girls exactly I'm supposed to be applying to geek culture.
Actually, now that I've thought about it, I can see it going a couple of different ways. Both the movie and book brought up are about how cliques shape women (in fact, the movie is based on the book). The fact that a movie and a self-help book are used as examples isn't particularly encouraging here.

But the argument seems to be that there's a culture-wide upbringing difference, which is at odds with the Mean Girls example. It looks like it's using cultural differences between boys and girls to validate suspicion of "the other," in this case, girls who might actually like video games or anime or something.

EDIT: I also meant to mention that in light of the toxicity being discussed, Mean Girls is often brought up as proof that women are worse than men when it comes to bullying. I'm not sure that's the reference here, but it is a thing. So it often comes up in relation to geek culture.
 

Zenja

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Phasmal said:
inmunitas said:
Gethsemani said:
Zenja said:
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks,[snip]
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.[snip]
Yeah, sure, then how come every single girl I know who plays games has had to put up with this bullshit?

I've been told repeatedly I don't look like I play games (what does that look like?). [snip]
First of all, Gethsmani, as I said before, if all the 30 year olds that claim to be big comic fans since Marvel movies got big were buying them in the 90s and 2000s then Marvel wouldnt have risked bankruptcy. Even if that somehow isn't true, reading comics wouldnt have made you the equivalent of a weaboo back then. Big Bang Theory is a show that exploits the negative view of society on Nerd and geek culture only that show gives them high paying jobs instead of having them be broke living with their parents ala [i/]Everybody Loves Raymond[/i]. It makes the "real world" around them have to bow to their social ineptitude for the show to even work.

However, on this site that is centered around nerd and Geek culture, you have some people who want to see the culture die. Society is trying a hostile takeover of the culture, and it is working because you are up against people who are not good at social warfare and have a tendancy to lash out and retreat. I don't see how someone who wants the culture to die is putting anything positive into the community.

"Fake Geek Girls" is a result of people also believing there are "Fake Geek Guys" too. There are fake geeks out there in it for the social aspect. Again read StatusNil's post. Nerd's don't use tend to use the phrase "I am such a nerd/geek" because saying that 'ironically' doesn't seem funny to them. They probably don't see much value in calling other people such either as they get made fun of for the same thing.

Phasmal, you are a girl. Understand there are many in this culture that feel threatened by you because other males and females have mocked them for their awkwardness as a geek or nerd. I am not saying that gives them a free pass, but trying a little amnesty with key users in each community could go a long way. I like you and can tell you aren't socially inept, but you tend to come into threads with a "Z snap" and your head bobbing. It isn't that your arguments don't hold merit, they most certainly do and that isn't me patronizing. However, you tend to forego any empathy for the other side (males who have bad social experience) even though you constantly request empathy for your side (females). I assure you many males in this environment have experienced not only bullying and belittling from other males but from females as well.

The toxicity of this community does indeed have a lot to do with a large influx of people over the last 10 years having zero tolerance for those who were essentially here first. There are many with typically unappealing features like body odor, balding scalps in their 20s, obesity, overbites, underbites, unibrows, etc. I don't say this to their detriment but rather to remind people that this culture was not originally inhabited by a bunch of attractive TV nerds. Nerd/Geek culture is full of insecurities and it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy. The culture holds escapism and even more cleverly things to argue over as a way to feel superior. By being the person that knows the lore of Star Trek or all the current rules to Magic the Gathering at a moments notice lets you do well within that particular social circle and your worth in that social circle isn't based on looks or society status. A sort of prestige is granted to those who devote more time to knowing the finer details of nerdom/geekdom. A prestige only worth pursuing if society is a total mystery to you as the time requirement is fairly high.

I have always been a more socially capable but socially inept geek myself. I understand concepts, I suck at executing them despite trying. Perhaps I have been lead astray by false feedback, perhaps not. It is all trial and error for me and I fall on my face consistently enough to have established some social insecurities of my own. I still believe in the idea though and probably always will. I am a Christian and those beliefs reverberate in sync with these ideals as well. Tolerance and understanding is the target behavior to me and I don't care if the world wants to tell me I am wrong all I see is people creating problems for themselves by not valuing such things. I strive for them constantly and I think they offer a huge merit to society so I will certainly advertise them.

The need to feel superior is a very human one. We like to rank things and we like to be at the top of that ranking. However, it helps if we all understand that these rankings are artificial made entirely by our own mind and that the rest of existence is unconcerned with how we rank things. We too should avoid prescribing to the idea that how humans rank things is the definitive nature of things. Rather we should view the way we rank things as the arbitrary compulsion that it is. Then we can stop having console wars and attacking people for not giving a game an additional .5 in its score. More importantly, we can stop thinking some people are worth more than others. Including the thought that we are more important than others.

As said in Civil War (paraphrasing) "An empire that falls to an enemy can rebuild. An empire that falls to itself is gone forever." Those who come into this culture to abuse it are more dangerous than an outsider casting stones. I like to hold to the thought that they are ignorantly trying to help and accidentally causing damage. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. As such, I am trying to offer what I can to help them see a way that is more helpful than shouting out everyone's faults in a community of insecurities and defense mechanisms.
 

Spider RedNight

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Oct 8, 2011
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I was just thinking about labels and "cultures" recently because I have a handful of friends who are really quick to dismiss anything that could be even remotely considered as negative as "lol well I'm a nerd so". We aren't even talking about serious things, it's arbitrary stuff like naming your dog after an anime character and.... owning a complete series of video games. And it got me to thinking about what stuff like that even means when you're trying to explain how much of a nerd you are to your friend who also named her cat after an anime character and how they're probably just preaching to the choir. Then I thought it was turning intrusive and I got irritated because it seemed like those friends were trying to be a quint-essential one-up-er about how justified they are in doing things like that just because they have a "label" to slap on to dismiss anything and a "culture" to get rid of anything else, like they're exempt from judgement because "no see I have a label and a community I'm part of!"

So I mean, I get it. It's a sanctuary if you need a sanctuary and a group of people you can identify with if you feel enough like a non-person that you can't just enjoy the things you enjoy without needing labels and cultures and crap like that. I personally hate being associated with "fandoms", "geeks" and "gamers" because it's really embarrassing because of members of those groups with their heads so far up their asses that they can see what they ate for lunch that day. Not everyone is like that, true, but as it's been said, there's a very vocal minourity in every group that tries to ruin it for everyone else.

I play games. I wear gamer shirts. I like Batman. I've been bullied (because honestly who's NEVER been bullied). I guess there comes a point where you reach a level of maturity and eventually, you don't give a shit if your likes and interests coincide with someone else from a similar "group". A lot(again, not all) of "geeks" and "nerds" either haven't reached this level yet or they're past the point of reaching that level and they're children who attack someone who doesn't disagree because "nobody understands them" like... Geek culture could be called "Linkin Park song" and it would achieve the same meaning to outsiders who happen to look in at the wrong moment and see something terrible.

That being said, if you're part of that culture, good for you. I like being able to go to the ThinkGeek store at my mall and buy a Portal keychain right next to some dude who wants a Doctor Who shirt or a chick who's gotta have every Pop Vinyl from the Fallout 4 collection. I like being able to engage in awkward small talk (because yeah, personal circumstances dictate that I'm really shitty at social communication but that's not me being a geek) over a shared interest and like others have said on this thread, it really is a better culture in person than it is online with anonymity, which I think is kind of terrible.

It's fun to read about how mad someone is online though and stick an Elcor accent on them. "Barely-concealed rage: How dare you like Captain America over Iron Man, you shit lord" and "hypocritical judgement: Geek culture is stupid and needs to die."

Stuff like that. ... I hope I answered the question - my paragraph narratives don't flow very well.
 

Phasmal

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Cor blimey this is quite a post. I'm gonna snip bits I think weren't for me, but let me know if I removed something important.

Zenja said:
Phasmal, you are a girl. Understand there are many in this culture that feel threatened by you because other males and females have mocked them for their awkwardness as a geek or nerd. I am not saying that gives them a free pass, but trying a little amnesty with key users in each community could go a long way. I like you and can tell you aren't socially inept, but you tend to come into threads with a "Z snap" and your head bobbing. It isn't that your arguments don't hold merit, they most certainly do and that isn't me patronizing. However, you tend to forego any empathy for the other side (males who have bad social experience) even though you constantly request empathy for your side (females). I assure you many males in this environment have experienced not only bullying and belittling from other males but from females as well.
This is.... a common sentiment. (I like the Z-snap thing, though. I admit, I have little subtlety and a weird sense of humour, but I try not to be a jerk- though you should probably be aware, I often come across like that because I'm not very good socially).
But what I'm hearing is kind of... 'Well I know you're doing literally nothing to these people but you are a girl and that's scary so feel sorry for the people who are mean to you'. I didn't bully or belittle anyone. When someone in my raid announces - 'Here's a funny joke: girls playing WoW', I don't think 'Oh precious flower, who wronged you?' I think 'Well fuck you too'. (A tiny example, but still).
I'm not asking for empathy for women and none for men. I'm asking for empathy for those who just want to play games and none for those who try to make it hard for them for no reason.

EDIT: And even if I did have empathy for those dudes, what am I gonna do? I can't 'woman' less.

Zenja said:
The toxicity of this community does indeed have a lot to do with a large influx of people over the last 10 years having zero tolerance for those who were essentially here first. There are many with typically unappealing features like body odor, balding scalps in their 20s, obesity, overbites, underbites, unibrows, etc. I don't say this to their detriment but rather to remind people that this culture was not originally inhabited by a bunch of attractive TV nerds. Nerd/Geek culture is full of insecurities and it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy. The culture holds escapism and even more cleverly things to argue over as a way to feel superior. By being the person that knows the lore of Star Trek or all the current rules to Magic the Gathering at a moments notice lets you do well within that particular social circle and your worth in that social circle isn't based on looks or society status. A sort of prestige is granted to those who devote more time to knowing the finer details of nerdom/geekdom. A prestige only worth pursuing if society is a total mystery to you as the time requirement is fairly high.
Yeah, I think people who know a lot about nerd stuff are totally cool. My boyfriend knows pretty much everything about Dark Souls, always has great tips on TF2 and can identify pretty much every Hearthstone card by the sound it makes when you play it. (The Dark Souls thing is really great for when I need to know where something is but can't be arsed to get up and look at a wiki).

I don't know if I agree that you have to be not very good socially to have all that knowledge though.

Zenja said:
The need to feel superior is a very human one. We like to rank things and we like to be at the top of that ranking. However, it helps if we all understand that these rankings are artificial made entirely by our own mind and that the rest of existence is unconcerned with how we rank things. We too should avoid prescribing to the idea that how humans rank things is the definitive nature of things. Rather we should view the way we rank things as the arbitrary compulsion that it is. Then we can stop having console wars and attacking people for not giving a game an additional .5 in its score. More importantly, we can stop thinking some people are worth more than others. Including the thought that we are more important than others.
Yeah, I agree. People should try not to get mad about those things.

Zenja said:
As said in Civil War (paraphrasing) "An empire that falls to an enemy can rebuild. An empire that falls to itself is gone forever." Those who come into this culture to abuse it are more dangerous than an outsider casting stones. I like to hold to the thought that they are ignorantly trying to help and accidentally causing damage. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. As such, I am trying to offer what I can to help them see a way that is more helpful than shouting out everyone's faults in a community of insecurities and defense mechanisms.
And... you've lost me a little here. I'd say the only people abusing our culture are the ones desperately trying to have nothing change in it. That's just not attainable. We should be happy that more people are coming into it, and want to know about the things we like, who cares if they don't like it the way we do?
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Zenja said:
First of all, Gethsmani, as I said before, if all the 30 year olds that claim to be big comic fans since Marvel movies got big were buying them in the 90s and 2000s then Marvel wouldnt have risked bankruptcy.
that assumes no other factors than straight sales, which ignores a good amount of the issues with the 1990s. It ignores factors like cost, the overall change of venue, the rise of used comic sales, the rise of the direct market, speculation, etc. Marvel's bankruptchy came in part because of the rise of an unsustainable market. Do you think those comics were being bought by nobody?

Big Bang Theory is a show that exploits the negative view of society on Nerd and geek culture only that show gives them high paying jobs instead of having them be broke living with their parents ala Everybody Loves Raymond. It makes the "real world" around them have to bow to their social ineptitude for the show to even work.
You know, it's weird. I know a good number of people who like sports. They love watching shows like The League. Now, your value for "funny" might be different than theirs, but I'm yet to see sports fanatics flip their lids because a show stereotypes them in "negative" ways. BBT is called "Nerd Blackface" while shows that mock the jocks and dudebros are...enjoyed by jocks and dudebros.

However, on this site that is centered around nerd and Geek culture, you have some people who want to see the culture die. Society is trying a hostile takeover of the culture, and it is working because you are up against people who are not good at social warfare and have a tendancy to lash out and retreat. I don't see how someone who wants the culture to die is putting anything positive into the community.
Describing the changing nature of an already mutable and amorpous culture as warfare is a rather black and white outlook, and I'd argue is more the problem. There is almost certainly no point in your life where there wasn't some form of nerd chiq. Christ, things like Star War and Star Trek were pop culture phenomenon. Are you 70 years old? Then there has probably been an influx of nerds and a change of what "nerd" means in your lifetime.

"Fake Geek Girls" is a result of people also believing there are "Fake Geek Guys" too.
Which is why the results on Google are around 15:1.

Nerd's don't use tend to use the phrase "I am such a nerd/geek" because saying that 'ironically' doesn't seem funny to them. They probably don't see much value in calling other people such either as they get made fun of for the same thing.
I use "I am such a geek" because I am self aware and able to laugh at myself in good humour. There are those moments where I totally recognise my excessive, sometimes obsessive fandom, and can laugh at them. And it is okay to laugh at them. I think the "community" would be better off if more people did that.

Phasmal, you are a girl. Understand there are many in this culture that feel threatened by you because other males and females have mocked them for their awkwardness as a geek or nerd.
The problem here is that you are asking for empathy but offering none. They're not the ones being treated like crap because some girl rejected some guy in high school.

And might I add, you have a history of telling me the overreactions in nerd culture aren't due to sexism or issues with women, but here you are telling someone that there are "many" in this culture who are actually threatened by Phasmal. That is a clear and strong issue with women.

The toxicity of this community does indeed have a lot to do with a large influx of people over the last 10 years having zero tolerance for those who were essentially here first.
I know, right? Like, I've been playing video games since I was 4 or 5 years old. I learned to read on my dad's comic book collection, which is probably why I prefer Spider-Man. His collection includes the whole Spectacular run to the mid-80s, when he started buying comics for his kids, instead. I've been reading fantasy since I could read books more complicated than "hop on pop." My parents are so dorky I was actually brought to two different Star Wars revivals, and while I'm too young to remember that, both Star Wars and Star Trek have been major parts of my life for pretty much everything past my breastfeeding stage. I started watching actual anime (not recut stuff like Voltron) at 14, and have been collecting it actively since 16. I was PC gaming back in the age of DOS and I learned to code my own BASIC games in fourth grade. I STOPPED actively playing Magic: the Gathering before a lot of these folks actually started (and I still have cards from as far back as Unlimited stored at my mom's place). I installed the stereo system in my brother's car. Nodbody asks him who put his speakers in, because they assume he's a tech guy. He has never opened a computer case in his life, but he's assumed to be computer savvy. I'm not the oldest geek out there, nor the most accredited, and I'm certainly not the only one, but all I want is the same respect that the boys are demanding. People ten or fifteen years younger than me are not respecting that I was here first. They are demanding I respect that they were here first. I was already getting shit on at school for playing roleplaying games by the time a lot of these guys were born. If they deserve respect, so do I.

it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy.
The irony being that people aren't sticking up for the little guy. They're being the bully, the excluder.

Maybe we're not the ones who need an empathy boost. Maybe there's something culturally wrong with this attitude towards women. Maybe nerds should be the people who most understand what it's like to be shunned and shit on and belittled. I shouldn't have to present as male to be treated like a freaking human being. Or like I have a brain between my ears. Maybe the guys who say it isn't cool shouldn't be shouted down.

You even say there's a problem in the community. Maybe people who acknowledge that should spend les time asking for empathy from the victims and more time addressing the problem.
 

Zenja

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Phasmal said:
This is.... a common sentiment. (I like the Z-snap thing, though. I admit, I have little subtlety and a weird sense of humour, but I try not to be a jerk- though you should probably be aware, I often come across like that because I'm not very good socially).
But what I'm hearing is kind of... 'Well I know you're doing literally nothing to these people but you are a girl and that's scary so feel sorry for the people who are mean to you'. I didn't bully or belittle anyone. When someone in my raid announces - 'Here's a funny joke: girls playing WoW', I don't think 'Oh precious flower, who wronged you?' I think 'Well fuck you too'. (A tiny example, but still).
I'm not asking for empathy for women and none for men. I'm asking for empathy for those who just want to play games and none for those who try to make it hard for them for no reason.
First off, I like you because we share similar social faux pas.

I know, you didn't perpetrate against those perpetrating against you.

I hate to do this because this is about to sound really pretentious or something. But... I think I am an average looking guy. The problem I encounter in real life geek culture spots is that I am not ugly. I would guess I come off as the loud small guy that hangs out with the in-crowd people even though that mostly isnt true. (I have been that guy a couple times for a few months) If I am in those circles I am getting made fun of for being a little geek. In my thrities I have filled out a little, but not much. I have a loud personality I am pretty sure comes off as obnoxious often. I can't tell where so I constantly just pull the reigns back on everything and try to stay low key. However, I like extremes and even staying low key often still comes off as loud and probably earns me a "douche" label. Maybe that is just insecurities, I don't know and quit really caring years ago. The point is I don't have many of the visible inequities many of my geek friends have had over the years and it is hard to relate entirely to their insecurities. For lack of a better term, I don't look like a geek and have been told as much.

Now that said, we have to be the light at the end of the tunnel. Pretentious as hell, isn't it? But seriously, I love so much of Geek culture and find so much of pop culture superficial. By making geek culture a popularity contest we are taking away the inclusive nature that is inherent in it. Before everyone else got here, we all got along because we had to despite all of these flaws that annoyed us even about each other. That guy playing magic across from me has a weird annoying tick and is kind of an asshole about the rules, but hey - its someone who will play magic with me and he has some cool cards and combos. After hanging out for a while you start to rub off on him and he stops being an asshole.

It isn't about commanding respect, its about being someone in the community who can shoulder some of the actual heavy baggage of the community. That is what every community is about. Just like I have to help carry your baggage (you needy girl ;)), you have to help carry mine.


Yeah, I think people who know a lot about nerd stuff are totally cool. My boyfriend knows pretty much everything about Dark Souls, always has great tips on TF2 and can identify pretty much every Hearthstone card by the sound it makes when you play it. (The Dark Souls thing is really great for when I need to know where something is but can't be arsed to get up and look at a wiki).

I don't know if I agree that you have to be not very good socially to have all that knowledge though.
It's not that you have to have poor social skills. But it is just convenient if you do. You will seek the knowledge to prove others wrong if that is one of your social quirks. Or to be the best fan ever, or whatever. As well, having little to no social life gives you a lot of time to invest in such endeavors.

Zenja said:
As said in Civil War (paraphrasing) "An empire that falls to an enemy can rebuild. An empire that falls to itself is gone forever." Those who come into this culture to abuse it are more dangerous than an outsider casting stones. I like to hold to the thought that they are ignorantly trying to help and accidentally causing damage. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. As such, I am trying to offer what I can to help them see a way that is more helpful than shouting out everyone's faults in a community of insecurities and defense mechanisms.
And... you've lost me a little here. I'd say the only people abusing our culture are the ones desperately trying to have nothing change in it. That's just not attainable. We should be happy that more people are coming into it, and want to know about the things we like, who cares if they don't like it the way we do?
The people abusing the culture are those who step inside of it and proceed to attack it as if that gives them justification. Saying that geek culture as a whole is "bigoted, sexist, vile, and toxic" and claiming that you are right because you exist within it is faulty. Why then are you acting as an outsider casting stones within? Why are you not trying to build up instead of trying to tear down the community you supposedly consider yourself a part of? They aren't a part of a community, they are trying to tear it down from within. Claiming to be a part only for validation in their argument, not to actually be a part of.

EDIT: A great example of why I like you.

Phasmal said:
EDIT: And even if I did have empathy for those dudes, what am I gonna do? I can't 'woman' less.


Lt. Commander Data: Is not honesty always the preferred choice?

Captain Picard: Excessive honesty can be disasterous.

A sentiment I myself have a hard time containing. Just try to see if you can help everyone focus on a positive aspect of your perspective and try to leave the negative out if you can. (Note: If you can, sometimes it is really hard but it gets easier over time) Always try to push the positive side of your argument harder than the negative and always assume that anyone who speaks against you, does so with the best intentions.
 

Zenja

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Something Amyss said:
Zenja said:
First of all, Gethsmani, as I said before, if all the 30 year olds that claim to be big comic fans since Marvel movies got big were buying them in the 90s and 2000s then Marvel wouldnt have risked bankruptcy. Even if that somehow isn't true, reading comics wouldnt have made you the equivalent of a weaboo back then.
that assumes no other factors than straight sales, which ignores a good amount of the issues with the 1990s. It ignores factors like cost, the overall change of venue, the rise of used comic sales, the rise of the direct market, speculation, etc. Marvel's bankruptchy came in part because of the rise of an unsustainable market. Do you think those comics were being bought by nobody?

Big Bang Theory is a show that exploits the negative view of society on Nerd and geek culture only that show gives them high paying jobs instead of having them be broke living with their parents ala Everybody Loves Raymond. It makes the "real world" around them have to bow to their social ineptitude for the show to even work.
You know, it's weird. I know a good number of people who like sports. They love watching shows like The League. Now, your value for "funny" might be different than theirs, but I'm yet to see sports fanatics flip their lids because a show stereotypes them in "negative" ways. BBT is called "Nerd Blackface" while shows that mock the jocks and dudebros are...enjoyed by jocks and dudebros.
I like BBT. I was just pointing out a trope it uses. I also think giving them a high paying job in theoretical physics was smart because it allows them to bicker amongst themselves in a way that is irrelevant to the viewer. Also you cut out part of my quote, I put it back in and bolded it. I didn't assume only straight sales, I also drew a parallel to culture. A cultural stigma so large it spawned many TV references to that apsect of our culture.

However, on this site that is centered around nerd and Geek culture, you have some people who want to see the culture die. Society is trying a hostile takeover of the culture, and it is working because you are up against people who are not good at social warfare and have a tendancy to lash out and retreat. I don't see how someone who wants the culture to die is putting anything positive into the community.
Describing the changing nature of an already mutable and amorpous culture as warfare is a rather black and white outlook, and I'd argue is more the problem. There is almost certainly no point in your life where there wasn't some form of nerd chiq. Christ, things like Star War and Star Trek were pop culture phenomenon. Are you 70 years old? Then there has probably been an influx of nerds and a change of what "nerd" means in your lifetime.
Yes but when other joined in before, we celebrated the existance of the 70s movies. We didnt demand Luke Skywalker be made a woman or that Darth Vader be made a black man in the sequel. We were fans of what it was, not what we wanted it to be. We accpeted the culture for what it was, not what we wanted it to be. There is political warfare going on inside this culture today telling people that they arent socially acceptable enough to be considered nerds/geeks. Seriously did anyone read StatusNil's post?

"Fake Geek Girls" is a result of people also believing there are "Fake Geek Guys" too.
Which is why the results on Google are around 15:1.
No that's because the term gamer girl was drug through the mud at the hieght of the whole sexist gaming thing and people refused to hear any other reasoning beyond "sexism". That mentality still exists today believe it or not.

Phasmal, you are a girl. Understand there are many in this culture that feel threatened by you because other males and females have mocked them for their awkwardness as a geek or nerd.
The problem here is that you are asking for empathy but offering none. They're not the ones being treated like crap because some girl rejected some guy in high school.

And might I add, you have a history of telling me the overreactions in nerd culture aren't due to sexism or issues with women, but here you are telling someone that there are "many" in this culture who are actually threatened by Phasmal. That is a clear and strong issue with women.
We have a history of talking about the Ghostbusters movie and that's it. Let's not act like it is some long history. I don't think Ghostbusters reaction is sexism, no. I do think that apprehension toward females in this culture is a mildly understandable reaction in some cases. In every case online as it is so impersonal, you should assume the worst case scenario as it being from someone so outcast that they have zero social skill. As such I am offering the notion to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Also, I am not asking for empathy for myself. I am asking for you to hear me out if you are interested in positive change in the community. That is how I have focused my posts. I have not laid blame at anyone's feet or accused any behavior outside of its potential destructive nature to the community. I have not drawn on sympathy to do so. I will say that offering sympathy for others in no way comes at a cost to you unless one simply enjoys withholding sympathy.

The toxicity of this community does indeed have a lot to do with a large influx of people over the last 10 years having zero tolerance for those who were essentially here first.
I know, right? Like, I've been playing video games since I was 4 or 5 years old. I learned to read on my dad's comic book collection, which is probably why I prefer Spider-Man. His collection includes the whole Spectacular run to the mid-80s, when he started buying comics for his kids, instead. I've been reading fantasy since I could read books more complicated than "hop on pop." My parents are so dorky I was actually brought to two different Star Wars revivals, and while I'm too young to remember that, both Star Wars and Star Trek have been major parts of my life for pretty much everything past my breastfeeding stage. I started watching actual anime (not recut stuff like Voltron) at 14, and have been collecting it actively since 16. I was PC gaming back in the age of DOS and I learned to code my own BASIC games in fourth grade. I STOPPED actively playing Magic: the Gathering before a lot of these folks actually started (and I still have cards from as far back as Unlimited stored at my mom's place). I installed the stereo system in my brother's car. Nodbody asks him who put his speakers in, because they assume he's a tech guy. He has never opened a computer case in his life, but he's assumed to be computer savvy. I'm not the oldest geek out there, nor the most accredited, and I'm certainly not the only one, but all I want is the same respect that the boys are demanding. People ten or fifteen years younger than me are not respecting that I was here first. They are demanding I respect that they were here first. I was already getting shit on at school for playing roleplaying games by the time a lot of these guys were born. If they deserve respect, so do I.
Fair enough. But you will find that demanding respect rarely works. That is precisely why you can't stand them if I am not mistaken.

it is where many go because the theme tends to be sticking up for the little guy.
The irony being that people aren't sticking up for the little guy. They're being the bully, the excluder.

Maybe we're not the ones who need an empathy boost. Maybe there's something culturally wrong with this attitude towards women. Maybe nerds should be the people who most understand what it's like to be shunned and shit on and belittled. I shouldn't have to present as male to be treated like a freaking human being. Or like I have a brain between my ears. Maybe the guys who say it isn't cool shouldn't be shouted down.

You even say there's a problem in the community. Maybe people who acknowledge that should spend les time asking for empathy from the victims and more time addressing the problem.
Maybe they need to be shown that women aren't people who always try to make them feel "unacceptable" by nice women? Maybe everyone could use a dose of empathy and not just one side? Maybe both sides are at fault. Maybe you aren't an innocent victim but yet another casualty of that black and white warfare?
 

Zenja

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StatusNil said:
The "nerd/geek culture" of today... isn't.

See, what the words basically mean is a certain lack of social graces, combined with an intense preoccupation with a number of niche interests. Really we're talking about the higher functioning parts of the autism spectrum. And when it comes to popular culture, this frequently means people who have a real need for structure in their fantasies. That's their comfort zone in a world that frequently appears chaotic and arbitrary. Hence the importance of "canonicity" of story elements, and the inflexibility when it comes to messing with it. "Nerds/geeks" crave consistency instead of "fresh new takes" because they're not good at adapting on the fly. That's why they're those things in the first place. And that's why the relationship between the "core" (longtime, not "just a-phase") fans of things like superhero comics and their producers is inescapably fraught.

Meanwhile, the whole notion of "nerd/geek culture" is that of a socially self-aware playing with "geeky" elements. It's "I'm such a BIG NERD I had a cartoon character tattooed on my ass, LOL!" And such awareness is of course the hallmark of the ironic posture. It's a lower tier of cool for those who didn't make it to impeccably hip: hip-sterism. That's the domain of socialites like "Queen of Geeks, Felicia Day!" "But why is she the Queen? What has she made that was so great?" "Dude, she's like totally hip to what's cool in teh geek scene, so we all must love her! AND she hangs out with Wesley from Star Trek!" "But everybody always hated Wesley..." "Shut up, dudemeister is a GEEK ICON, he can totally laugh about himself!"

And that's the major internal contradiction in this alleged "nerd/geek culture". It's dominated by socially adept hipsters who have learned to ironically embrace "geeky" signifiers, building "fandoms" predicated on sociability. And these hipsters have zero empathy, in fact a burning contempt, for the authentically dysfunctional "nerds" who sincerely cling to their favorite pop culture products for comfort. "Like, how GAUCHE is taking this shit SERIOUSLY, man?" This is in fact much of what this very thread is saying. "Nerd/geek culture is cool, except for all the TOXIC nerds who give it a bad name!"

Well, that "toxicity" is largely a backlash of marginalized (yes) people with limited social skills to what amounts to a highly disrespectful takeover of all their favorite things by fickle trendies. Of course, even the OG "geeks" don't OWN these cultural forms. But if the substance of the new "nerd/geek" culture is to deliberately target the real nerds/geeks by appropriating what they helped build and "subverting its tropes" as a Grand Stand against their supposedly "exclusionary entitlement", it doesn't take a genius Social Scientist to understand why it might appear riven with hostilities great and small. The culturally sensitive thing is to Build Moar, Misappropriate Less. Or simply deign to treat this Lower Class of "dumpster fire" folks with some respect, even if they cramp your style with their uncouth enthusiasms.
Just reposting this to keep it relevant. This sums everything up rather nicely and shows both sides and where they both fall short. I think some may have missed it.

Reading through it again, it is powerful stuff. Brutally honest on both fronts. This environment is loaded with hostility.
 

Johnlives

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Barbas said:
A minefield of emotionally volatile, socially retarded, self-loathing, bullying waifs, pathetically lacking in empathy, who occasionally gravitate close enough to one another to become something like friends before something is said or done that causes unbridgeable enmity between them for the remainder of their lives. The longer you stare, the worse you become.

Let it die. Don't engage with it, don't embrace it; push it away and shun it like a poisoned cup. Find quality people, people with morals and standards, hold them close and make your own community. Much more good will come to you that way.
I'm wondering...what are you doing on this ship? You do know what this website is about, right?

My friends, gawds bless 'em, they all have a certain geek strain in them, but the reason I come to this site every day, or at least every other, is that these strangers on the internet, despite never meeting, nor will we ever, we have a common bond by the things that we love. Yes we can get overly emotional but that's born of a passion that so few other people that we encounter have.



Whilst I've been participating in this geek culture I've seen works of charity based on the fact that people are simply hanging out together and can do some good whilst they are, strangers rallying around to help others when they say they are in trouble and need help. I've met people from across the globe and gained understanding of their different philosophies, things I wouldn't be subject to if it wasn't for our shared passions.



Let it die? I've seen strangers helping strangers enough whilst watching this culture that it deserves a chance. If all you see is a bunch of obtuse shitslingers, maybe it's your association with the culture that should die. Better that than a vibrant, charitable, ever evolving culture.
 

Disco Biscuit

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What "Nerd/Geek Culture"? Show me that it actually exists in a broad sense, not in a constellation of individual and obsessive fandoms, and I'll tell you what I think of it. I know math nerds, and physics nerds, and bio nerds, or comic book nerds, but they're not particularly alike in their "culture".
 

Bat Vader

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Phasmal said:
inmunitas said:
Gethsemani said:
Zenja said:
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
Yeah, sure, then how come every single girl I know who plays games has had to put up with this bullshit?

I've been told repeatedly I don't look like I play games (what does that look like?). When I bought my PS4 the guy automatically assumed it was for my boyfriend.
Hell, my friend who is also female got asked if she was a Fallout fan by the guy behind the counter at the midnight launch of Fallout 4.

I really don't think it's just a coincidence that so many women get this kind of treatment.
That's just stupid people being stupid. Someone asking someone else if they are a fan of Fallout when that person is at a Fallout 4 midnight launch is stupid, plain and simple.
 

Thaluikhain

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Bat Vader said:
Phasmal said:
inmunitas said:
Gethsemani said:
Zenja said:
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
Yeah, sure, then how come every single girl I know who plays games has had to put up with this bullshit?

I've been told repeatedly I don't look like I play games (what does that look like?). When I bought my PS4 the guy automatically assumed it was for my boyfriend.
Hell, my friend who is also female got asked if she was a Fallout fan by the guy behind the counter at the midnight launch of Fallout 4.

I really don't think it's just a coincidence that so many women get this kind of treatment.
That's just stupid people being stupid. Someone asking someone else if they are a fan of Fallout when that person is at a Fallout 4 midnight launch is stupid, plain and simple.
I'd draw you attention to Phasmal's last sentence there. Why is it that women get this more than men if it's just stupidity?

For that matter, if it's just stupidity, how have geek culture avoided the sexism of wider society?