To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls), they will attack media critics for wanting to analyze the content of their hobbies (Sarkeesian and anyone who's ever written a post-colonial blog/op ed on gaming/comics/nerd culture), they will hate on developers for not listening to fans and will hate on developers because they listened to fans. They will hate developers for not being innovative enough and they will hate developers for "changing the formula too much". They will rage on about how their hobbies and cultures needs "standards" because otherwise any old pleb with a passing interest might think that they are actually welcome into the hobby. They are so afraid of their hobby changing and new people that aren't exactly like them joining their hobby that they are ready to exercise scorched earth tactics via all manners of harassment, ruining the reputation of the hobby in the process. And then, just to top it all off, they have the hypocrisy to claim that they are unfairly judged because of their hobby.
For a long time I fought hard to be accepted by those people, thinking it'd make me a "real gamer". But in the end, I want to share my hobby with others. I want others to realize what's so great about gaming, sci-fi, fantasy, roleplaying, collectible card games, board games and all these other things that can make my spare time so amazing. So these days I spend less time engaging with the broader community in favor of being a positive voice in the small community I am a part off. I know I am not alone in wanting to make geek culture a more inclusive place, but the vocal minority that is the regressive old guard have the ability to drown out almost all other conversation and they are not worth my time.
This thread shows the same sentiment that led to those Gamers are Dead articles - Geeks are selfish and savage losers with terrible social skills and a history of being bullied. Luckily there is a more enlightened, empathic and progressive elite, who can lead the way to a more civilised geek culture. Any resistance is a sign of bigotry and intolerance, as the geeks should be grateful for the chance to be educated and made better.
It's all just class warfare and people feeling uncomfortable about sharing hobbies with people they feel are inferior.
...the irony here is that the Gamers are Dead articles were about how a specific subset of gamers were ruining the hobby for the rest of us by being elitist, gatekeeping pricks who harassed the hell out of anyone who disagreed with their narrow views.
So... yeah. Fun Fact of the Day.
Anyway, onto bigger fish.
...literally.
StatusNil said:
The "nerd/geek culture" of today... isn't.
See, what the words basically mean is a certain lack of social graces, combined with an intense preoccupation with a number of niche interests. Really we're talking about the higher functioning parts of the autism spectrum. And when it comes to popular culture, this frequently means people who have a real need for structure in their fantasies. That's their comfort zone in a world that frequently appears chaotic and arbitrary. Hence the importance of "canonicity" of story elements, and the inflexibility when it comes to messing with it. "Nerds/geeks" crave consistency instead of "fresh new takes" because they're not good at adapting on the fly. That's why they're those things in the first place. And that's why the relationship between the "core" (longtime, not "just a-phase") fans of things like superhero comics and their producers is inescapably fraught.
Meanwhile, the whole notion of "nerd/geek culture" is that of a socially self-aware playing with "geeky" elements. It's "I'm such a BIG NERD I had a cartoon character tattooed on my ass, LOL!" And such awareness is of course the hallmark of the ironic posture. It's a lower tier of cool for those who didn't make it to impeccably hip: hip-sterism. That's the domain of socialites like "Queen of Geeks, Felicia Day!" "But why is she the Queen? What has she made that was so great?" "Dude, she's like totally hip to what's cool in teh geek scene, so we all must love her! AND she hangs out with Wesley from Star Trek!" "But everybody always hated Wesley..." "Shut up, dudemeister is a GEEK ICON, he can totally laugh about himself!"
And that's the major internal contradiction in this alleged "nerd/geek culture". It's dominated by socially adept hipsters who have learned to ironically embrace "geeky" signifiers, building "fandoms" predicated on sociability. And these hipsters have zero empathy, in fact a burning contempt, for the authentically dysfunctional "nerds" who sincerely cling to their favorite pop culture products for comfort. "Like, how GAUCHE is taking this shit SERIOUSLY, man?" This is in fact much of what this very thread is saying. "Nerd/geek culture is cool, except for all the TOXIC nerds who give it a bad name!"
Well, that "toxicity" is largely a backlash of marginalized (yes) people with limited social skills to what amounts to a highly disrespectful takeover of all their favorite things by fickle trendies. Of course, even the OG "geeks" don't OWN these cultural forms. But if the substance of the new "nerd/geek" culture is to deliberately target the real nerds/geeks by appropriating what they helped build and "subverting its tropes" as a Grand Stand against their supposedly "exclusionary entitlement", it doesn't take a genius Social Scientist to understand why it might appear riven with hostilities great and small. The culturally sensitive thing is to Build Moar, Misappropriate Less. Or simply deign to treat this Lower Class of "dumpster fire" folks with some respect, even if they cramp your style with their uncouth enthusiasms.
...You know, I've never understood the 'geeks are insular/socially inept' thing. Because... fuck man, have you met older geeks? They LOVE being social. Can't get enough of it. 40, 50 year old geeks have been some of the most social people I've ever met, telling me stories of how they organized all these geeky things pre-internet by sending letters or putting up posters outside Star Wars screenings. When the internet hit they talk of how they started forums and websites so they could tell even MORE people about all these cool nerdy things with all these people who hadn't heard about it or weren't born yet. Who'd talk for hours to anyone who'd listen about how awesome all these geeky things were and that 'hey maybe you should totally check these things out they're fucking awesome!'. Who were all so excited to see how new people coming into geekdom would bring new things or look at things differently or create new things. Who just... didn't fit the 'anti-social' identity Geekdom clings to like a rash.
Like... I dunno. It doesn't feel like new geeks are 'appropriating' things. Someone rocking a Force Awakens shirt talking about Captain America ain't no different to someone rocking a New Hope shirt squeeing over the latest comic release. The insular, anti-social identity of geeks has never felt like the identity of 'Geekdom' - just something applied to Geekdom by people who didn't care, and something taken in by people who were anti-social to begin with. Passion is something far more characteristic of Geeks, and that passion often led them to be really fucking social. Hell, Geeks have been doing conventions and meetups for decades, for the sole purpose of getting together and chatting about all this totally cool shit that people are doing. New people getting into Geekdom aren't 'Hipsters' appropriating shit, they're just more geeks keen on the cool shit that is labeled 'Geeky' for whatever reason.
And the kickback against toxicity isn't something new either. There's always been a push against toxic people in the community. Much like how Geekdom is so much bigger now, the pushback is as well. And it's not targeted at the anti-social or insular geeks, it's targeted at the ones who are... well, toxic. Those who gatekeep the community ('Oh, you haven't read ALL of the Captain America comics? The fuck you wearing the shirt for then?' - actual thing someone has said to me), those who harass, those who attack and demand that No, This Is Theirs and Not Yours. It's not Hipsters vs. Anti-Socials, it's Geeks vs. Assholes. Members of a community against those who fuck it up for the rest of us.
I dunno. As said on the first page, it feels like there's this misanthropic identity with Geeks that just doesn't gel with geekdom. Both because of the steady expansion of geekdom, and because geeks just... aren't bad people. Certainly got a fair degree of fuckheads involved (The internet has been both kind and cruel to Geekdom) but burning everything down because of the fuckheads doesn't do much good. Can certainly understand people having the idea of it being a dumpster fire though (and seriously, if you guys have a problem with what Phasmal said, why not... you know, quote her or something? This passive-aggressive approach makes no sense), since close-quarters contact with assholes can spoil the taste of a lot of things.
...Hence my stance of 'Fuck Gatekeepers and harassers right in their shitty faces'.
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
Yeah, sure, then how come every single girl I know who plays games has had to put up with this bullshit?
I've been told repeatedly I don't look like I play games (what does that look like?). When I bought my PS4 the guy automatically assumed it was for my boyfriend.
Hell, my friend who is also female got asked if she was a Fallout fan by the guy behind the counter at the midnight launch of Fallout 4.
I really don't think it's just a coincidence that so many women get this kind of treatment.
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
Yeah, sure, then how come every single girl I know who plays games has had to put up with this bullshit?
I've been told repeatedly I don't look like I play games (what does that look like?). When I bought my PS4 the guy automatically assumed it was for my boyfriend.
Hell, my friend who is also female got asked if she was a Fallout fan by the guy behind the counter at the midnight launch of Fallout 4.
I really don't think it's just a coincidence that so many women get this kind of treatment.
I wouldn't say it's a "coincidence", it's just not something unique to gaming, it's systemic of wider society. You have girls being brought up with the whole "queen bees and wannabes"/"conformity is acceptance" mentality, plus mainstream media's constant portrait of "alternative" cultures as being male dominated to the point people find the concept of a female being interest in it alien.
To step into nerd culture just to berate those who are in it seems really pretentious and no doubt means you are probably a major source of negativity and thereby toxicity in the community.
Is there anyone who does this though? From where I am standing, as a self-proclaimed geek of almost 2 decades, it seems as if the main sources of toxicity are the hardcore geeks, who act as self-proclaimed gatekeepers to keep those they don't consider invested enough in the culture out of it. This vocal minority will dismiss an entire gender as not being geek enough (Fake Gamer Girls)
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
...so it's just sheer magical coincidence it's called 'Fake Gamer Girls' rather than 'Fake Geeks' or 'Fake Gamer Guys', yeah? Nothing gendered about that at all.
Besides, how the fuck do you even be a 'genuine' geek? Pretty sure the... for lack of a better word 'requirements' for being one is 'Did you like this thing? Are you interested in this thing? Yes? Welcome to the club!'. It's about as exclusive as a public toilet, so gatekeeping based on gender and 'genuineness' really makes no sense.
...plus, like, women have been geeks/gamers from the very start, so 'fake gamer girl' is really such a dumb thing to think is real.
Getting a bit off-topic, but that could be argued. It's a culture of honor killing when a foreign does it, and it's a one-off senseless tragedy when it's one of Us, motives and numbers notwithstanding.
I do not so much like a lot of the people it produces.
I love the idea of the underdog as much as the next person, but the reality isn't quite so sympathetic.
Turns out, if you gather up the outcasts, the misfits and the maladjusted and mash them all together the outcome actually isn't all that pretty. You get a whole lot of unhealthy, unhappy, immature, terminally bitter folks of questionable mental condition who never got over being bullied in high school and have chosen to define themselves by their preferences in entertainment media.
Many of them probably ended up the way they are through no fault of their own, but that doesn't make the end result any less unpleasant to be around.
This isn't to say "geek culture" is somehow worse than other cultures. I mean, people fucking die in riots over sport. It just means geek culture has its own brand of awfulness which I refuse to tolerate just because no corpses have shown up with "fake geek girl" etched into their foreheads... yet.
As I'd brought up in the other thread, why make the distinction then? What possible purpose does it serve other than to single out a single demographic as being wholly responsible? Are we not better served by only targeting those who are behaving poorly, rather than broadly accusing an entire, tangentially-associated group? As I'd said, yes there have been instances of sports fans going full mental and rioting over a lost game. But I would never use that as an example for the claim "sports culture is toxic and needs to die". So why do we use instances of bad behavior by some geeks as a rallying cry for the death of 'geek culture' as a whole? To me it feels just as demeaning and exclusionary as 'geeks' are portrayed as behaving.
I guess I just don't understand the hypocritical nature of todays culture/counter-culture mindset.
Err... did you just quote me twice in two threads on the same subject?
I'm happy to discuss/debate this with you, but can we please keep it to one thread? Otherwise I'm going to get awfully confused.
Anyway, so...
I am only talking about the people who are behaving poorly. I said "a lot of the people", not "all of the people" or even "most of the people".
If some geeky fellow out there is happily playing WH40K, reading Batman comics and debating the finer points of Dune or whatever then I have no problem with that guy. More power to him. I'm not talking about that guy.
Hell, if our hypothetical geek is fat and depressed and lonely while playing WH40K and reading Batman comics then, well, that's a shame and it would probably be in his own best interests to make some changes but so long as he isn't taking it out on other people then I still don't have a problem with him.
As for the "rallying cry for the death of geek culture as a whole"... umm... I didn't saying anything along those lines. In fact I said I like a lot of the stuff it produces. I probably count as a part of geek culture myself (depends on how you define it of course, it's a rather nebulous thing after all.)
If cries for the extermination of geek culture are your issue then you're going to have to take it up with someone who is saying that.
"Fake Gamer Girls" isn't the "dismissal of an entire gender", it's just a manifestation of wannabes/try hards/posers/etc.
you see in practically all "alternative" cultures. Basically people with a teenie bopper mentality trying to be "accepted" into a perceived social group (for whatever reason) by conforming and changing themselves in order to "fit in", which are then looked down upon/rejected by which ever group they're try to be accepted in because they don't come across as genuine/"being themselves"/etc.
I am pretty sure that what you are describing is pretty much every teenager (and many adults) ever when they find a new hobby. You realize something is fun or interesting so you start hanging out with the people that do it or feel the same thing and in the process you try to fit into that social group, by adopting stuff like speech symbols ("pwnd", "lol" etc.), manners, attitudes and the like. What you are describing is every socialization process ever and is a perfectly normal occurrence in society as a whole. That some parts of geek culture somehow views this as posing or "faking it" says a lot about those regressive and shitty parts of geekdom.
I'd also like to concur with Phasmal on this. I've been gaming since I was 6 and even now, some 23 years down the line, I am still met with skepticism by other (exclusively male) "geeks". From hearing I am "too beautiful" to be a gamer to being told that girls don't actually play Magic to being told I was a fake gamer girl for wearing a Fallout shirt. It is not a coincidence that we get this treatment, and it is perfectly in line with the casual misogyny in some parts of geek culture.
I wouldn't say it's a "coincidence", it's just not something unique to gaming, it's systemic of wider society. You have girls being brought up with the whole "queen bees and wannabes"/"conformity is acceptance" mentality, plus mainstream media's constant portrait of "alternative" cultures as being male dominated to the point people find the concept of a female being interest in it alien.
Bear in mind, I'm a girl, kinda have been for 26 years nearly now. And I dunno what you're on about with this.
And yeah, mainstream media does portray geekdom as some sausagefest, but mainstream media isn't telling my friends to 'watch out' because I might not really like the things I like, or suggesting that my boyfriend got my achievements for me. Nerd dudes are the ones doing that.
Well, it's a culture I'm a part of, and I find a lot of it extremely compelling. I love the pure breadth of "nerd"-content available, and I love that it's increasing and diversifying and filling niches. I love the attention to detail and the fixation on lore and fictional world-building. I love the preoccupation with the genres (in broad terms) of fantasy and sci-fi. I love the mediums of comics and video games, and that they're being used for better and more imaginative storytelling than ever before. I even love the fixation on Japanese stuff.
However, there are major problems with large swathes of it. Parts of it are too insular, too exclusionary, and have some bizarrely outdated ideas about women. Parts of it; others don't. Parts of it are far too inwardly-looking and aggressive. And parts of it display ridiculous responses to criticism of any part of the culture.
On the whole, still a good culture, and still continues to provide me with great content and great experiences.
I wouldn't say it's a "coincidence", it's just not something unique to gaming, it's systemic of wider society. You have girls being brought up with the whole "queen bees and wannabes"/"conformity is acceptance" mentality, plus mainstream media's constant portrait of "alternative" cultures as being male dominated to the point people find the concept of a female being interest in it alien.
I wouldn't say it's a "coincidence", it's just not something unique to gaming, it's systemic of wider society. You have girls being brought up with the whole "queen bees and wannabes"/"conformity is acceptance" mentality, plus mainstream media's constant portrait of "alternative" cultures as being male dominated to the point people find the concept of a female being interest in it alien.
Haven't heard of the book, have indeed watched 'Mean Girls'. It's a funny film. It's not, however, the bible on women.
We generally don't act like we're all from Stereotopia. I'm still not sure what you're driving at in regards to ladies in geek culture.
EDIT: I'm clearly missing something here, but when you're having a discussion with women about nerd culture and their relationship to it, I don't think 'have you seen Mean Girls' is a great jumping-off point.
Because you started this thread, you deserve a response (and it will be my last post in this thread).
I don't think you mean any ill will and in principle I agree with you. This topic brings out some very questionable opinions that in the light of day should earn them the dismissal they deserve, it is the essence and an extremely useful purpose of free speech (which a privately owned forum such as this one is not required to uphold).
The sad truth is, however, that no one cares and will not take any of it seriously beyond just stating surface opinions unsubstantiated by reason or data (the latter because it almost certainly doesn't exist). I don't want it flagged because I just disagree, I personally want it locked because it's bordering on bigotry and the only outcome I see is that it will encourage people to flame one another. If someone gets offended by this thread being locked and leaves this site entirely because of it, I see it as a net positive that will improve the community here.
Any discussion of "killing the geek/nerd community" is not a light affair, especially considering the ongoing debate climate and the continual assault on us and our hobbies with allegations of the worst kinds of hatred on earth. Don't feed the worst thing that has and is still happening to us.
This is part of why our community is becoming increasingly negative. Read the post above yours, it's possibly the most concise and honest explanation you will ever read.
Well would you look at that, Para. You've unintentionally created another heated shitstorm. What do you have to say for yourself?
Hey, I think I may have accidentally created another shitstorm. Whoops. I do miss healthy debates on here. It didn't get too personal or caused mayham. It was just both sides (or multiple sides) expressing their points of view, listening to teh opposing views and agree to disagree 50% of the time. You know, like those school debates you have with a debate team. Once again, I haven't been to school in nearly 10 years, is that not what you do anymore?
I won't ask to have this thread locked (maybe because last time I did that, I got a warning. Why? I don't fucking know), and maybe things can become a bit more lighter and PG.
This thread shows the same sentiment that led to those Gamers are Dead articles - Geeks are selfish and savage losers with terrible social skills and a history of being bullied. Luckily there is a more enlightened, empathic and progressive elite, who can lead the way to a more civilised geek culture. Any resistance is a sign of bigotry and intolerance, as the geeks should be grateful for the chance to be educated and made better.
It's all just class warfare and people feeling uncomfortable about sharing hobbies with people they feel are inferior.
...the irony here is that the Gamers are Dead articles were about how a specific subset of gamers were ruining the hobby for the rest of us by being elitist, gatekeeping pricks who harassed the hell out of anyone who disagreed with their narrow views.
Well, that's not really ironic, nor is it a fact (or fun). Looking at Leigh Alexander's article which admittedly is probably the most extreme example, she's complaining about memes and in-jokes, consumerism, the way people dress, their social skills, their passion for their hobby and even the way they queue. She's just criticising people who she is embarrassed to be associated with professionally, and using the harassment angle as justification, displaying a clearly elitist attitude. Although that's my opinion, and you obviously have a different one.
The Gamers are Dead articles have been discussed to death, so it was probably a mistake on my part to bring them up.
You know, I just don't buy this argument. I get it, though. I used to be bullied for my weight, before I got in shape, and it definitely hurt. But I have two main problems with this. The first is that, just because you've been bullied in the past, that's not an excuse to take out your frustrations on a completely unrelated person. Do you know what that makes you? A bully. You're no different then the kid who got whipped by his dad at home, and took it out on some dweeb at school. My second issue is that people seem to think that, because they were bullied, they can't be bullies themselves. It's part of this awful victim complex they have. The truth is quite different, and I've seen it. I had a friend in highschool who was perpetually bullied, and he always complained about it. But, then, he would always be an asshole to those around him. Hell, part of the reason some people mistreated him was because of the way he treated others. The irony was lost, until I hit him in the face for mocking another student whose dad had died. I'm sure he thought I was bullying him. We weren't friends after that.
Geek culture was a great place for some very smart and creative people to come together and not feel judged by others. Granted there has always been bickering, but it was typically born of ego and passion. I do not know if there is any place in modern society where some self-righteous prick isn't judging you for something now and trying to say you're wrong.
I haven't seen any of that. And this is part of the problem. I don't think people fit into categories, such as "geek." People are more complex then that. The arbitrary terms we use don't really exist, especially outside highschool. But, even in highschool, I would have disagreed. The other geeks I knew in highschool were neither smart nor creative. The anime fanatics I knew didn't really do much better in class then the football star. Some did worse. They could also be extremely cliquish, and unnaccepting. In my experience geek culture tends to be exclusionary, rude, and sometimes racist, homophobic, and sexist. But this is my first hand experience, so take that as you will. I think people who have been bullied made up the idea that they are smarter and nicer then everybody else in order to cope, but it isn't really true. Some are, but most aren't. In all likelihood the guy giving wedgies will grow out of his behavior, get married, and become manager at a construction sight somewhere.
I wouldn't say it's a "coincidence", it's just not something unique to gaming, it's systemic of wider society. You have girls being brought up with the whole "queen bees and wannabes"/"conformity is acceptance" mentality, plus mainstream media's constant portrait of "alternative" cultures as being male dominated to the point people find the concept of a female being interest in it alien.
Haven't heard of the book, have indeed watched 'Mean Girls'. It's a funny film. It's not, however, the bible on women.
We generally don't act like we're all from Stereotopia. I'm still not sure what you're driving at in regards to ladies in geek culture.
EDIT: I'm clearly missing something here, but when you're having a discussion with women about nerd culture and their relationship to it, I don't think 'have you seen Mean Girls' is a great jumping-off point.
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