Zero Punctuation: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow

[zeldafan934]

So... the depth of the review amounted to a "poor portal reference" and saying the game is "like this game but..."?

That's honestly all you're going on? Seriously?

I can't be the only one to think that Yahtzee has been picking out his reviews before he even plays the game. To state that you're biased the moment you go into a review shows that you're not going to put the effort into it anyway.

I think Castlevania deserves some more credit here to be honest- at least they tried to do something different. To stamp "Like God of War but.." is a stupid insult- how else can they make a 3-D game related to their franchise? How else can they kill mythological creatures using medieval weaponry- as they have in EVERY GAME they created, WAY before God of War even existed? What defines a "like god of war game", hm? Making a game 3-D and melee based while fighting mythological creatures? I'm sick and tired of hearing people complain about games "ripping off" other games all because they carry over a certain gameplay mechanic in their own way. This game had all sorts of variety in combat methods, including but not limited to the light magic healing you, the dark magic increasing your power, the four different sub weapons which change based on the magic you use, the ability to guard/dodge/parry, the abilities you unlock as you gather new relics (like a double jump attack), the wide variety of various spells and combos you can buy for experience points, and the ability to use grabs and finishing attacks.

As a side note, I'm glad Castlevania did something different with Dracula, at least it gave it a fresh view of where Dracula came from...

 

[sageoftruth]

i think you should stop using the whole "like god of war...but" joke...its getting old.

Still, that was pretty much my first thought when I saw some gameplay from the game's review supplement. Yatzee was stretching it when he used it on Bayonetta, given the game's Devil May Cry roots and lack of meelee weapons that reached across the screen, but this review really did sum up all my thoughts after seeing the Castlevania reveiw supplement.

 

[sageoftruth]

dude what the fuck is you main problem cant you just have fun when playing games wich are the main poitn and after all the piece fucking garbitch of shadow of colossus what nothing more than a patetic waste of time and speace it had nothing interesting to do and you only fight so little this game had more of a better story.

You don't know how this works do you?

Oh, he does all right. He's just trolling (Note the misspellings, poor grammar, poor punctuation, gratuitous use of the F word, and complete absense of punctuation until the end of the sentence). It portrays him as dumb, ignorant, and outspoken, thus inspiring others to argue against him.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

i think you should stop using the whole "like god of war...but" joke...its getting old.

I can't agree with this. If the joke is getting old it just shows you how stagnant the games industry has become in terms of the outright theft of successful formulas and the repackaging of the same damn game for the seventy squillionth time. People keep buying them though, hence the need for the joke.

No, no, no.
That's like saying that the game industry is stagnating just because they still make First Person Shooters, or RTS-Games or games of every other existing genre.
You can't just invent something completly new every time you develop another game.

Mythological monsters. QTEs. Chained whips. Wake up.

Mythological monsters and chained whips were Castlevania originals. You need to wake up.

No, they were mythological originals. That's not the point at all. We're talking about video games. In the context of this medium, God of War originated its particular breed of gameplay -

No, it did not. Action platformer where you're facing down legions of creatures of myth using a whip based weapon? Castlevania did that in 1983. God of War was the first game to take the ideas that Castlevania brought forth years upon years beforehand and successfully bring it into 3D.

Even so, it only perfected it. Lament of Innocence came out two years prior, utilizing similar gameplay. I'm guessing that you've only been playing games for about six years now?

So just ignore the part where I talk about originality of execution?

God of War, as a video game, is an original creation. Nothing that came before it feels the same.

Would you like to try again?

Kiddo, the sooner that you realize that there's nothing new underneath the sun you'll find yourself enjoying things much, much more. You'll also feel this new sensation called "being right." From someone who is right, let me tell you that it's an awesome feeling.

Every game borrows from something. It's what the game does with it that matters.

I played every DMC. I played most every major action game since SNES. Even hit some of the late NES offerings. Kind of rules me out as a kiddo, huh?

God of War was a watershed moment for the genre. Pretending otherwise is incredibly naive.

When you put together an experience that feels so polished, fluid, and natural, you deservedly take the reigns of the genre. That's what happened. Everything that comes after will inevitably be compared to your game.

It makes all the sense in the world to compare third person action games to God of War until something bests God of War. When such a game contains QTEs, highly similar weaponry, and a cast of enemies pulled from history/mythology, said game will be rightfully mocked as a copycat - unless it had somehow done it all better than GoW. LoS did not. Defending the game's "originality" because its ancient 2D predecessors, which play nothing like modern action games, had similar elements seems bizarre and pointless.

Feel free to like LoS. A bunch of people do. Doesn't mean it's not a gigantic GoW ripoff. There's also nothing inherently wrong with that either. Darksiders is one of the most derivative games I've ever played, but I loved it. It was rightfully criticized for its lack of gameplay imagination. When I defend the game, I focus on the good and acknowledge the bad. With LoS, part of the bad is that it's a GoW clone. If the good more than makes up for that, cool.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Two things:

1. I can't fathom how anyone believes this isn't a God of War clone. That term certainly gets thrown around, but it fits this game like a fucking glove. Mythological monsters? Check. QTE finishers? Check. Chained whip weaponry? Fucking check. You'd have to be blind or stupid not to see it. If anything, this is the first time it has genuinely applied.

Presumably you have not heard of Dante's Inferno... the game, not the epic poem, of course. But to show how pointless your line of reasoning is, let's try a little reductio ad absurdum.

I can't fathom how anyone believes [Half-Life] isn't a [Duke Nukem 3D] clone. That term certainly gets thrown around, but it fits this game like a fucking glove. [Aliens]? Check. [Great big bosses]? Check. [Firearm] weaponry? Fucking check. You'd have to be blind or stupid not to see it. If anything, this is the first time it has genuinely applied.

So with very minor edits, your argument "proves" that the original Half-life is a massive rip-off of Duke Nukem 3D, which is, of course, patently absurd.

If all you do is scratch the surface with your analysis and point out a few trivial, superficial similarities, sure, Lords of Shadow looks like God of War. But that's utterly meaningless. The gameplay is extremely different.

In God of War, you slowly acquire moves that more or less replace your previous moves in usefulness until you eventually have a massive repertoire that you boil down to a couple of combos... somehow this doesn't feel repetitive, because the game is just so damn well presented. But the gameplay isn't terribly deep, unfortunately.

In Castlevania, you slowly acquire moves that enhance different playing styles, all of which are necessary to get through the game at a reasonable pace on a reasonable difficulty. Some are good against hordes of enemies, some are good for focusing on slow enemies, others are good for focusing on faster, dodging enemies, others are good for gaining life in light magic mode, others are good for heavy damage in shadow mode, others are good for building fast focus in order to regain magic. I had, at the end of the game, a few moves I wasn't using often, but there were probably 6 or 7 combos or techniques I used regularly and that's not even counting the subweapons, which also have no perfect analogy in God of War.

And that's just gameplay. You called out the "mythological monsters" as a similarity, but it's actually a vast difference. Gothic monsters like vampires and lycanthropes are inspired by a western horror tradition, while Minotaurs and Gorgons come from a more heroic mythological tradition. The literary histories of these monsters could not be more different. And besides, what *should* Gabriel Belmont fight in a Castlevania game? Aliens?

And as a protagonist, Gabriel is nothing like Kratos. He isn't out for revenge, ultimately wants to do the right thing, wrestling with what that is, and genuinely cares about the consequences of his actions.

2. To the people who think he's overusing the "Like God of War, But" stamp: is it possible to miss the point any harder? It's meant to be an indictment of "me too" game design. The more he uses it, the funnier/sadder it gets. If you don't understand this, I'm not sure you're responding to the actual content of his criticism. You're maybe just infatuated with clever imagery or his accent.

No, they think it's lazy. It was only ever really accurate with respect to Dante's Inferno, yet it was applied to a host of games (including Bayonetta of all things). It was only used in the first place as a comedy trope he could come back to repeatedly for humorous effect. For the most part, it has never been an indictment you should take seriously for any given game. It was supposed to be taken in aggregate as a number of developers saturated the action game market.... well, that's all over with now. Castlevania is not arriving in a saturated action game market that has to compete directly with God of War. So it's no longer relevant... and since it's far from fresh, it seems lazy.

Not that the comparison isn't worth making.... it is. But more so you can take the opportunity to contrast the two. They look obviously similar on the surface, so if you're going to call them similar, you're not saying anything interesting. But luckily, you can say something interesting... because under the surface, they're completely different. Even the QTEs.... they seemed more like they were inspired by Lost Odyssey than God of War.

Ever heard of the girlfriend test?

I've got a semi-gaming literate girlfriend. She plays with me from time to time.

She thought Castlevania was God of War.

I play a LOT of third person action games, so it makes sense that she'd confuse them. But this is the first time she was legitimately mistaking one game for another. "Wait, this isn't God of War? I thought you just unlocked a new character or something? But he still uses whips? And you still have those little mini-games where you press the buttons on screen?"

She didn't mistake Darksiders, Bayonetta, or DMC4 for GoW.

Anyways, the point of this little aside? If you're capable of distinguishing in such detail the minor (but likely significant, to the hardcore player anyways) differences between the rapid flashing whips of God of War and Lords of Shadow, you're probably too detail-oriented to decide whether or not the games are overly similar. I mean at that point you're pretty much capable of differentiating anything.

I think I'm gonna be done here. I feel like I'm arguing with an impassioned minority, which is exactly what you tend to find in ZP threads. I think I'll just go with the following: LoS is not a shot-for-shot remake of GoW. If that's enough for you to dismiss the charges of "GoW clone", by all means, enjoy your game.

 

[Misho-]

So... the depth of the review amounted to a "poor portal reference" and saying the game is "like this game but..."?

That's honestly all you're going on? Seriously?

I can't be the only one to think that Yahtzee has been picking out his reviews before he even plays the game. To state that you're biased the moment you go into a review shows that you're not going to put the effort into it anyway.

I think Castlevania deserves some more credit here to be honest- at least they tried to do something different. To stamp "Like God of War but.." is a stupid insult- how else can they make a 3-D game related to their franchise? How else can they kill mythological creatures using medieval weaponry- as they have in EVERY GAME they created, WAY before God of War even existed? What defines a "like god of war game", hm? Making a game 3-D and melee based while fighting mythological creatures? I'm sick and tired of hearing people complain about games "ripping off" other games all because they carry over a certain gameplay mechanic in their own way. This game had all sorts of variety in combat methods, including but not limited to the light magic healing you, the dark magic increasing your power, the four different sub weapons which change based on the magic you use, the ability to guard/dodge/parry, the abilities you unlock as you gather new relics (like a double jump attack), the wide variety of various spells and combos you can buy for experience points, and the ability to use grabs and finishing attacks.

As a side note, I'm glad Castlevania did something different with Dracula, at least it gave it a fresh view of where Dracula came from...

True dat, at least it isn't like all Castlevanias... He bad you kill. And it reminds me more of Vlad Tepes as a tragic story than anything else (remember Bram Stoker story?).

Still Castlevania is pretty much fucked in that regard (your previous point) since it's virtually impossible to make the 3D transition with a Whip (chain in most cases like the past 2D ones) fighting mythological creatures and platforming... Even taking out the QTEs everyone would cry out FOUL!!! GOW CLONE!!!! LOL and for those who played it and complained about the omission of certain monsters like the minotaur and the medusas... Well imagine what would've happen if those were included into the LoS... More GoW clone shit...

In a previous post I said that Yahtzee is pretty unique here in the swamplands of the internet and although I like LoS I was looking forward to see him rape the game with a knobbly stick. But I wish he did a JustCause 2 like thing and say he's using the Stamp ironically or something since EVERY REVIEWER OUT THERE HAS DONE AND SAID THE SAME THING ABOUT THE GAME... (Or the Tomb Raider thing and challenge himself by not mention it during the entire review; Just make the disclaimer as well so everyone knows he is aware of it).

You see, now Yahtzee is as unoriginal (in this review) as the game he's spewing bile about... Ironic. And I hope I get to see a Sequel to this game

Oh and also Gabriel's head looks tiny because of an optical trick, his hands and feet use a much brigther color (White, Silver, Bright Bonze) than his head (dark brown).

 

[IMightBeWyatt]

LoS has a level called "Underground Caves". Aren't they all, really?

 

[Misho-]

LoS has a level called "Underground Caves". Aren't they all, really?

? Like the top of the Castle? Or the mountain fortress Tower? Or the Starting Village??? It must be a pretty big underground place... And the sun must be really powerful to get all the way down there when it does.

Lol I just read the post with much more attention... Damn my piled on to-do-work!
Yeah well all Caves are Underground but Underground Caves has a ring to it

 

[Shinkada]

Actually, Curse of Darkness for PS2 was probably my favourite Castlevania, just ahead of Aria of Sorrow. :|

Lament of Innocence really wasn't /that/ bad either. It wasn't great but it was still enjoyable.

Why would you shrug off every 3D Castlevania just because 64 and... Whatever the sequel to that was called, sucked?

 

[mr_rubino]

The Cake is a Lie is still a great joke to the many people who have heard of Portal but never played or finished it and found that... Big-Time Spoilers Here... there was a cake. One wonders what G and C were going to do with it being that neither has a mouth.

There, now can we stop referencing it everywhere?

 

[uguito-93]

I'm sure he ment Metroid Prime 2, but knowing Yahtzee he probably never played those games and just is going on hearsay.

Considering that Prime 3 is a, for a lack of a better word, prime example as to why his "motion controls are unimmersive" bullshit, yeah I doubt he played the sequels as well.

I still dont get why he always brings up super paper mario and metroid prime 3 when mentioning light/dark systems. the phazon system in prime 3 was used as a risky and temporary offensive boost and super paper mario's system merely involved the changes from 2d to 3d levels.

Yeah that always confused me as well. I guess switching from 2D to 3D counts as dual world gameplay in Yahtzee's little world.

That was an image of Metroid Prime 2, not 3! Metroid Prime 2 had a Light and Dark beam and had a Light world and Dark world. The Light Dark thing is, in my opinion, a very lazy attempt at stretching out the game since after a bit there is really no story development for the vast bulk of the game till the end after beating the final boss.

I don't really know what your talking about with Super Paper Mario having a light/dark system because it doesn't. The world flipping to the side doesn't count as one either. It's just a different perspective used to get past areas and solve puzzles. The Light/Dark world from the game from what I remember would probably have to do with the normal world and the world that those pixel creatures come from and having to switch between them at times.

So, long story short, based on your complaints about Yahtzee's opinions about games you think he's never played, I would doubt that you or the people you quoted every actually played the games either since 1. you confused Metroid Prime 2 for 3 when that's a 'GAMECUBE' game case and 3 is for Wii, and 2. you again confused the Normal/Pixel world with the change viewpoint gameplay aspect. Maybe you should actually bother looking up information on the games you think Yahtzee doesn't know anything about before you go around proclaiming knowledge about those same games when you clearly don't know nothing about them to begin with.

Wow dude okay i admit that i confused 2 games of the same series (and i've played through all metroid games apart from metroid 2). if you had bothered reading the entirety of my original comment you would have seen that my point was WHY super paper mario was included among the others featuring light/dark systems when it's 2D/3D system IS NOT light/dark gameplay aspect. the town of Flopside is just a backwards version of Flipside so i doubt that counts. Seriously if you're gonna go on a full blown rant at least read what you're replying to.

 

[Ericb]

The Cake is a Lie is still a great joke to the many people who have heard of Portal but never played or finished it and found that... Big-Time Spoilers Here... there was a cake. One wonders what G and C were going to do with it being that neither has a mouth.

There, now can we stop referencing it everywhere?

You could set the example, you know. =P

 

[DaltonSezHi]

Left 4 Dead 2 has a Portal reference and that game's awesome.

Yes, but that was made by Valve, so..yeah. It's ok if a company makes a reference to one of their other games. Sometimes. But Valve can get away with it.

 

[CK76]

I've played all 3 GBA and all 3 DS Castlevanias and for me all of them have been fantastic entries in the series.

Why is their a reluctance to make a super high res 2-D equivalent on home consoles? At best the 3D Castlevanias have been serviceable, but none of them approach Super Castlevania IV or Symphony of the Night.

 

[Turbo_ski]

I've played all 3 GBA and all 3 DS Castlevanias and for me all of them have been fantastic entries in the series.

Why is their a reluctance to make a super high res 2-D equivalent on home consoles? At best the 3D Castlevanias have been serviceable, but none of them approach Super Castlevania IV or Symphony of the Night.

Variety is the spice of life my friend. Do you only want 2D castlevanias in lieu of 3D versions when they are in the habit of making both types. Unless we're talking DLC content, it's not practical to make a 2D platiformer for the PS3/360, since barely anyone will pay for a $60 modern version of the SotN model for PS3/360. Keep in mind, most of the mainstream gaming audience for those two consoles judge by appearance and presentation first and gameplay second with the inverse being true for portables.


As for everyone else in this thread. Lords of Shadow doesn't ripoff other franchises, it's clearly a homage to them. Also the GoW ripoff comments are pretty ignorant since GoW was heavily inspired by Castlevania: Lament of Innocence. That is the equivalent of saying Zelda: Twilight Princess is a ripoff of Okami just because both have wolves and Okami came out first but blatantly ignoring that Okami was heavily inspired by Zelda Ocarina of Time.

 

[Lancer873]

And there's the ad for the game right next to the video. Effing lol. I have to say I'm kind of surprised to hear Yahtzee put Aria of Sorrow on the same pedestal as Symphony of the Night. I mean, I definitely think it was a hell (no pun intended) of a great game, but I thought he would think the story was kind of... overly JRPG-ish.
And yeah, I'd be interested to see a really well executed Metroidvania style 3D action-platformer... but I don't think this is that game.
Also: My LittleBigPlanet fanboyism ensured I instantly spotted the sackboy in his Colossus outfit when he popped up. =D

 

[duchaked]

guess what, Yahtzee ...Fable III has a Portal reference!!!

and it's probably worse...have a field day with that one (if you can find it)

 

[wiredk]

Silly reply failed on me to quote, ignore this post

 

[CK76]

I've played all 3 GBA and all 3 DS Castlevanias and for me all of them have been fantastic entries in the series.

Why is their a reluctance to make a super high res 2-D equivalent on home consoles? At best the 3D Castlevanias have been serviceable, but none of them approach Super Castlevania IV or Symphony of the Night.

Variety is the spice of life my friend. Do you only want 2D castlevanias in lieu of 3D versions when they are in the habit of making both types. Unless we're talking DLC content, it's not practical to make a 2D platiformer for the PS3/360, since barely anyone will pay for a $60 modern version of the SotN model for PS3/360. Keep in mind, most of the mainstream gaming audience for those two consoles judge by appearance and presentation first and gameplay second with the inverse being true for portables.

I don't think Lord of Shadows really added variety to video gaming. What I (admittedly selfishly) want is the next step in the Castlevania series I love that since the PS1 era has been a (fantastic) side step for a decade. I'm not bothered by Lord of Shadows, I just also want a beautiful 2D entry (think Blazblue). I'd settle for a 20 dollar PSN version game like Shank at this point.

 

[GroundBreakah572]

Sorry, but I liked the game. If was fun and... seriously, which games does not copy something from a different game? If this would be bad, we would only have... 10 games maybe?

To say that "something is like from a different game" is no agrument that the game is bad.