Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls

[Alarien]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first

Well, depending on your character and playstyle that either is or is not impressive. Playing a sorcerer, I simply laughed at them. Playing a melee, focusing on killing Smough first to get the Leo Ring and Ornstein's armor, it was a lot harder.

 

[Blackpapa]

Nice timing, I installed dark souls a week ago and uninstalled it just before coming here. I got to Sen Fortress before giving up.

Dark Souls isn't a good game. It's a difficult and frustrating one. Players looking for difficult and frustrating experiences will, in between cutting themselves, overlook the flaws of this game because of the difficulty.

This game reminds me of marathon running. There's nothing particularly *fun* about struggling with exhaustion, physical pain, arthritis, aching muscles and torn ligaments. Still, people do it and they're fond of it same way DS players are.

The taurus boss I defeated using a cheap exploit by climbing up and down the ladder.

The gargoyles I was unable to beat in a reasonable amount of time so I downloaded a trainer and enabled godmode. I used a couple of cheats to increase endurance - sure, I could've farmed the souls for 3 or 4 days, but I have better things to do.

Ultimately I gave up on the Sen Fortress level once I realized the only emotions the game gives rise to are anger and frustration or scorn and indifference.

I'm handing over my gaming badge. Maybe I can't complete dark souls, but I bet you can't hold your hand over a lighter flame as long as I can.

 

[Sotanaht]

I love to compare this to the Demon's Souls review from a few years back

It really highlights the difference between him actually playing the game and just quitting right off the bat. The games themselves are pretty much identical as far as the reviews are concerned.

Look guys, let's all be really honest with ourselves here. I loved Demon's Souls but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have some VERY significant differences with Dark Souls being the more intuitive and accessible of the two by a very long shot.

1) Progression: Demon's Souls has a weird progression of 5 disconnected worlds. Intuition says go from your starting location in Boletaria, world "1-1" directly into "1-2." I'm sure a lot of us did this, and got facerolled by the dragon, then the archers/knights, the dogs, and then Tower Knight. It was frustrating as hell, and that's where Yahtzee quit. It is not intuitive to complete 1-1 and then know that the smart thing is to go to 2-1, and then maybe 4-1, then maybe try 2-2 or 3-1. It's all a bit of "test the waters" and decide with each location whether you are ready for it. While that's not a BAD thing, per se, it's not intuitive by any means, and can lead to frustration.

2) Difficulty: Demon's Souls was harder. Dark Souls has some really fun, challenging sections, but it is also a lot more progressive in regards to it's difficulty. A lot of the harder enemies you meet early can be completely bypassed. Black Knights, Havel, several of the Baldur Knights, the Berenike Knights, Hellkite; many of these are optional (some more than others) in the early game. However, I remember having to face down a lot of the nastier knights, the Fat Officials, those godawful Illithid/Mindflayer bastards in Latria, without much option to simply bypass. Also, while many of the Dark Souls bosses were challenging, I think the Demon's Souls ones, for the most part, were a bit more so. Flamelurker (until I just rolled around naked shooting him with homing soul arrows) and Maneater are, frankly, harder than anything I faced in Dark Souls. O&S is only really tough because they don't hit or collision detect each other properly. Bed of Chaos isn't hard... it's broken.

3) Punishment: Demon's Souls punishes the player a lot more. Half your health for soul mode? That's way worse than just being "hollowed." Soul level loss to various possible factors? Brutal. Every time you die (can't remember if you had to be in human form or not, I think you did...) you push the world tendency towards black, making the place more difficult? Pretty rough.

4) Obscurity: A lot of the reason that many Dark Souls players were comfortable with the attributes is because they were already fully aware of the way they worked from Demon's Souls. Show of hands, how many people started a Knight in Demon's Souls and then later discovered fastrolling when they took off their armor? I was one of the ones who did this and then realized "well crap, this makes things a lot easier." The Demon's Souls community fed information into the Dark Souls community, making the world of Dark Souls feel less obtuse/obscure, but in Demon's Souls, that information was less immediately available to the populace at large.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Demon's Souls, but I do think that expecting someone to like Demon's Souls purely based on whether they liked Dark Souls is a bit premature. I think there is a high likelihood, but we tend to brush over a lot of the improvements to intuitiveness and accessibility that went into Dark Souls, which Demon's Souls lacked.

As far as the reviews are concerned I said.

In this review, he notes the metroidvania qualities of dark souls, of exploring other areas to find out which ones he is prepared to face. If he can do that in Dark, he can do it in Demon's even more easily. Also try to remember that neither of the reviews were anywhere close to the launch of their respective games, AND he did outside research on dark souls before playing it. All in all, if he had gone into Demon's Souls exactly the same way he did Dark Souls, the review and opinion would be almost identical. Maybe a mention of World Tendancy or soul form health, but that's pretty much it.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

woah, Yahtzee liked it?
it isn't a subtle joke that I didnt quite get? he does like it?

well then, welcome to the party. hope DS2 gets an earlier review.

 

[The Dead Singer]

Yes! Hell yes!

This review pretty much forced me to make an account - So pleasantly surprised by this. Can't wait for the DS2 review now.

 

[Mzuark]

Dark Souls is a Fantastic Game, it's beautiful, immersive, fun(after the first run through) and all around just a sweet experience. It's just that the fanbase is filled to the brim with a bunch of smug, elitist asshats who look down on everyone else just because they dare to like more than just Dark Souls and refuse to acknowledge that the game has a few design flaws here and there. And by the way, there is a difference between lore and widespread fanon speculation. Just because EpicNameBro said something doesn't make it true. Plus, I will admit "Praise the Sun" and "Amazing Chest" ahead were cool and funny at first, but they really lose their charm when they're posted freaking everywhere.

Anyway, I'm happy Yahtzee likes it but our good friend grenge said it best

Before Viewing: *remembers how everyone on the forums wish how they could have the great Arbiter review their beloved Dark Souls.

After Viewing: Well, good for you, demographic above: you got your masturbatory fantasy of someone on the internet telling you that they liked a video game that you so happened to like and gave you the validation you totally needed. Now shut up about it.

 

[TristanBelmont]

I have been waiting for this review for ages and I did not come away disappointed. Can't wait for the sequel, but I'm sad to say I'm probably not gonna get as far as most people do.

 

[ToastyMozart]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try. Ahahahahahaaaaaa. *smug* *smug*

Seriously though it's a real fun game.
I didn't find it or Demon's Souls that obtuse. Some people make it sound like you're dropped in a pitch black environment (heh) and then vaguely implied to go northwest without a compass.
I'm exaggerating but it does feel like they seemed to miss quite a lot of things it seems they shouldn't have.
But I do agree that it wouldn't dramatically hurt the game or anything if it had a little bit more direction at a few points and with some of it's systems.

It definitely is not for everyone, but it definitely is for me.

Did you change your avatar picture just for this post? Nice.

 

[Hebby]

I am still at the fucking

I hate this game. I gave up after the first dragon fight. Well not gave up as such, but gave up the interest in it.
I was playing it as a North Korean would play along with the propaganda of Kim Jong-un.

 

[garjian]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try. Ahahahahahaaaaaa. *smug* *smug*

You made that joke already.

Nice timing, I installed dark souls a week ago and uninstalled it just before coming here. I got to Sen Fortress before giving up.

Dark Souls isn't a good game. It's a difficult and frustrating one. Players looking for difficult and frustrating experiences will, in between cutting themselves, overlook the flaws of this game because of the difficulty.

This game reminds me of marathon running. There's nothing particularly *fun* about struggling with exhaustion, physical pain, arthritis, aching muscles and torn ligaments. Still, people do it and they're fond of it same way DS players are.

The taurus boss I defeated using a cheap exploit by climbing up and down the ladder.

The gargoyles I was unable to beat in a reasonable amount of time so I downloaded a trainer and enabled godmode. I used a couple of cheats to increase endurance - sure, I could've farmed the souls for 3 or 4 days, but I have better things to do.

Ultimately I gave up on the Sen Fortress level once I realized the only emotions the game gives rise to are anger and frustration or scorn and indifference.

I'm handing over my gaming badge. Maybe I can't complete dark souls, but I bet you can't hold your hand over a lighter flame as long as I can.

Dark Souls really isn't that difficult. You'll only find it difficult if you don't take advantage of your surroundings and the mechanics.

To compare your experience to a recent one of mine, I was able to kill the first gargoyle in 5 hits, and the second in 3... both down in under a minute.
This was because I was using a +5 Halberd, and was two-handing it, and I didn't have to grind for a minute (In fact, the game gives you a new area to explore right next to the blacksmith and a method of risk-free boss practice that also gives you souls).
I don't care how skilled you are, that's ridiculously easy..! Yes, it's certainly not my first time... but that's how easy it legitimately can be at that point in the game. No trainers. No obscure, off-the-beaten-path items. No grinding.
Using other builds and other weapons isn't going to be much harder providing you upgrade and you've got the right stats for your weapon, or the right weapon for your stats perhaps.

Also, what you call on exploit for Taurus Demon, I'd say is what they wanted you to do. You were taught in the tutorial to do that, and I'm sure the aim was for you to recall that, be resourceful, and use the environment to your advantage to defeat the boss... Personally, I feel they missed an opportunity to teach you to dodge, but I guess they wanted to be extra nice for the first boss.

Cheating your way past a hurdle only means you learn nothing from it... so you'll never feel the reward of learning how to deal with these situations.
I did a similar thing myself when I learned about the old Dragon Breath glitch, and in the end, I just ended up not learning how to use my weapon and not learning how to dodge, parry or backstab effectively... and no amount of HP or damage will help if you can't get a hit in and don't know how to avoid damage.
I hate to sound like every Dark Souls player ever but, you need to get good. That's where the fun is... getting good.

 

[Grimh]

I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try. Ahahahahahaaaaaa. *smug* *smug*

You made that joke already.

Yes I know, it's right there.
It's the other one that's unoriginal, redundant and painfully unfunny.
This one's just painfully unfunny.

 

[Trollhoffer]

Really? You actually like this game Yahtzee? Well there goes your credibility again.

I've played Demons' Souls despite Yahtzee's review of that and ended up agreeing with him. I refuse to believe that Dark Souls isn't the same case of "let's take I Wanna Be The Guy and make it serious, dark and edgy" in terms of game design.

I really, REALLY don't get the love people have for this series when I've played challenging games that are far better designed.

Unless Dark Souls actually improved on some things but most of what I've heard others say seem to imply it's more of the same.

I don't think you and game designers are using the same definition of "game design".

 

[Blackpapa]

Dark Souls really isn't that difficult. You'll only find it difficult if you don't take advantage of your surroundings and the mechanics.

To compare your experience to a recent one of mine, I was able to kill the first gargoyle in 5 hits, and the second in 3... both down in under a minute.
This was because I was using a +5 Halberd, and was two-handing it, and I didn't have to grind for a minute (In fact, the game gives you a new area to explore right next to the blacksmith and a method of risk-free boss practice that also gives you souls).
I don't care how skilled you are, that's ridiculously easy..! Yes, it's certainly not my first time... but that's how easy it legitimately can be at that point in the game. No trainers. No obscure, off-the-beaten-path items. No grinding.
Using other builds and other weapons isn't going to be much harder providing you upgrade and you've got the right stats for your weapon, or the right weapon for your stats perhaps.

Also, what you call on exploit for Taurus Demon, I'd say is what they wanted you to do. You were taught in the tutorial to do that, and I'm sure the aim was for you to recall that, be resourceful, and use the environment to your advantage to defeat the boss... Personally, I feel they missed an opportunity to teach you to dodge, but I guess they wanted to be extra nice for the first boss.

Cheating your way past a hurdle only means you learn nothing from it... so you'll never feel the reward of learning how to deal with these situations.
I did a similar thing myself when I learned about the old Dragon Breath glitch, and in the end, I just ended up not learning how to use my weapon and not learning how to dodge, parry or backstab effectively... and no amount of HP or damage will help if you can't get a hit in and don't know how to avoid damage.
I hate to sound like every Dark Souls player ever but, you need to get good. That's where the fun is... getting good.

Difficult is a relative term - mechanically the game isn't particularly difficult. It is fairly lenient in terms of how many frames you have to dodge and the enemy's charge animation. Compared to say, Q3 on the highest difficulty setting, moment-to-moment gameplay is challenging, but fair and fun.

It is however frustrating due to long iteration times. If you fail, you lose significant progress. The games forces you to redo content on it's own terms. I am okay with being punished for stupid mistakes, such as dodging into magma. Reclaiming your souls and humanity is a good mechanic when the game allows you do to so on your own terms. Normally, if your tactic isn't working, you run back, heal up, change your weapon and try again. Iteration time 15 seconds.

With bosses however, the whole idea is to learn the timings and movement. That is done by trial and error. There's no option to run away and regroup without having to regrind the content immediately prior to the boss fight. While fighting bosses and failing you are not making any visible progress. Iteration time: 10 minutes

Case in point - Sen's Fortress. Unless you are in the habit of hitting every wall, you will not find the bonfire that allows you to save before the iron golem boss. Which means having to regrind through the extremely frustrating platforming segment every time you fail the boss fight. As you, the player, get more and more frustrated you will want to get to the boss faster and faster. Haste will get you killed, PARTICULARLY so on platforming segments.

Regrinding the content I've already completed isn't a test of my skill - that's a matter of difficulty. Instead it tests my patience, which is a matter of frustration.

Blighttown, for example, while challenging, was fair. While I did die tons to blowdart snipers, FS made them non-respawnable, meaning suicide rushes to take out those annoying enemies was a valid tactic that allowed the player to make progress, even at the cost of death. Certainly not optimal, but I can feel I'm moving forward.

In short, I like the real difficulty, I don't like wasting my time with fake difficulty. Dark Souls could well be a mainstream game without changing any of the combat mechanics or values, just by shortening the iteration times.

 

[Trollhoffer]

snip

In short, I like the real difficulty, I don't like wasting my time with fake difficulty. Dark Souls could well be a mainstream game without changing any of the combat mechanics or values, just by shortening the iteration times.

I think you make a pretty decent point. Kudos for talking about the core mechanics, too. All too often, the things that actually make games what they are are lost in discussion of more superficial details, and we should always be mindful of how the game actually functions from moment to moment -- not just the content.

That being said, shorter iteration times tend to dull the intensity of success and failure. If there aren't meaningful setbacks, then neither success nor failure are meaningful. You're not wrong, mind, but I feel as though there's a more ideal middle point. Some of the hidden bonfires, for instance, don't really need to be hidden. Some could be stand to be closer to boss fights. But the fact that loss is meaningful, and that the game has a pseudo fail state by removing your resources without having a true fail state, means a lot. Iteration times could be shortened during particularly difficult segments without changing the way Dark Souls iteration works in the first place, and not all iteration periods need to be shortened.

One of the flaws in Dark Souls' iteration, I feel, is that it asks for consistent success during some points and snap success during others. Boss battles are a good example of asking for snap success, whereas the general gameplay asks you to succeed at mostly the same things between bonfire A and bonfire B, then asks for something else between bonfire B and bonfire C. I think this is generally a good way to do things, because those bonfires can be psychological markers for the player, and clarify when and where the game expects them to learn something new.

 

[Toxic Sniper]

It's funny seeing all the drones struggle with this video; after they resigned themselves to hating Dark Souls after the Extra Punctuation and the Zero Punctuation review of Demon's Souls, now their idol said he actually likes the game. Cue shock and horror and immediate regrets.

I can't stop thinking about how the world IS designed for bigger people. Anor Londo is the land of the gods and giants.

That's why the halls and doors were so large. Think about how tall the smiths and knights where.

If you check out the staircases in Anor Londo, there are two sets: One for giants, one for humans. Same with the elevators leading to the Chamber of the Princess: One small, one large. Compare to New Londo Ruins, a human undead city: Pretty much every part of it is built for human-sized inhabitants.

 

[Narfo]

I love, LOVE, the "smug expression" guy Yahtzee used to represent the veteran DS players. It looks so accurate and hilarious. I hope he uses it again.

On the note of Dark Souls, I've been on the fence about playing it. Ever since I watched a playthrough of it, seen some videos dedicated to its lore, and researched the HELL out of anything to do with the story, I been in love with it ever since, often describing it as "delightfully bleak." Of course, though, the main holdup for me is the difficulty curve. Yes, yes, I know the difficulty level is the game's selling point, and that it's not so much the difficulty itself but overcoming that difficulty is where the game shines (gameplay wise). It's just that I'm not sure I want to spend money on a game I'm almost positive I would put down after my thirty-eighth death at the hands of the first boss and not pick it up until it's the home for a colony of dust bunnies or ever again.

 

[Broderick]

I love, LOVE, the "smug expression" guy Yahtzee used to represent the veteran DS players. It looks so accurate and hilarious. I hope he uses it again.

On the note of Dark Souls, I've been on the fence about playing it. Ever since I watched a playthrough of it, seen some videos dedicated to its lore, and researched the HELL out of anything to do with the story, I been in love with it ever since, often describing it as "delightfully bleak." Of course, though, the main holdup for me is the difficulty curve. Yes, yes, I know the difficulty level is the game's selling point, and that it's not so much the difficulty itself but overcoming that difficulty is where the game shines (gameplay wise). It's just that I'm not sure I want to spend money on a game I'm almost positive I would put down after my thirty-eighth death at the hands of the first boss and not pick it up until it's the home for a colony of dust bunnies or ever again.

Well you seem rather into everything but the "playing" part of the game heh. I do not blame you though, I only picked up the game after watching an episode or two from one of my favorite let's players. I will tell you, getting used to the games controls and enemy movements will be the biggest challenge wall for you in the beginning. The game flat out doesn't tell you vital things too(like how humanity works). I mean hell, i didn't even know what going human did for you till I got to sen's fortress. Still though, I love the hell out of it.

If you feel you are prone to "rage quitting", you may want to skip this one; it really is quite fun though if you are willing to put up with a few grievances. Just remember, knowing an enemy move-set can mean the difference between life and death. Also, death is just a learning experience. Learn, grow, adapt from death and you will enjoy the game immensely.

 

[ERaptor]

Dark Souls really isn't that difficult. You'll only find it difficult if you don't take advantage of your surroundings and the mechanics.

To compare your experience to a recent one of mine, I was able to kill the first gargoyle in 5 hits, and the second in 3... both down in under a minute.
This was because I was using a +5 Halberd, and was two-handing it, and I didn't have to grind for a minute (In fact, the game gives you a new area to explore right next to the blacksmith and a method of risk-free boss practice that also gives you souls).
I don't care how skilled you are, that's ridiculously easy..! Yes, it's certainly not my first time... but that's how easy it legitimately can be at that point in the game. No trainers. No obscure, off-the-beaten-path items. No grinding.
Using other builds and other weapons isn't going to be much harder providing you upgrade and you've got the right stats for your weapon, or the right weapon for your stats perhaps.

Also, what you call on exploit for Taurus Demon, I'd say is what they wanted you to do. You were taught in the tutorial to do that, and I'm sure the aim was for you to recall that, be resourceful, and use the environment to your advantage to defeat the boss... Personally, I feel they missed an opportunity to teach you to dodge, but I guess they wanted to be extra nice for the first boss.

Cheating your way past a hurdle only means you learn nothing from it... so you'll never feel the reward of learning how to deal with these situations.
I did a similar thing myself when I learned about the old Dragon Breath glitch, and in the end, I just ended up not learning how to use my weapon and not learning how to dodge, parry or backstab effectively... and no amount of HP or damage will help if you can't get a hit in and don't know how to avoid damage.
I hate to sound like every Dark Souls player ever but, you need to get good. That's where the fun is... getting good.

Difficult is a relative term - mechanically the game isn't particularly difficult. It is fairly lenient in terms of how many frames you have to dodge and the enemy's charge animation. Compared to say, Q3 on the highest difficulty setting, moment-to-moment gameplay is challenging, but fair and fun.

It is however frustrating due to long iteration times. If you fail, you lose significant progress. The games forces you to redo content on it's own terms. I am okay with being punished for stupid mistakes, such as dodging into magma. Reclaiming your souls and humanity is a good mechanic when the game allows you do to so on your own terms. Normally, if your tactic isn't working, you run back, heal up, change your weapon and try again. Iteration time 15 seconds.

With bosses however, the whole idea is to learn the timings and movement. That is done by trial and error. There's no option to run away and regroup without having to regrind the content immediately prior to the boss fight. While fighting bosses and failing you are not making any visible progress. Iteration time: 10 minutes

Case in point - Sen's Fortress. Unless you are in the habit of hitting every wall, you will not find the bonfire that allows you to save before the iron golem boss. Which means having to regrind through the extremely frustrating platforming segment every time you fail the boss fight. As you, the player, get more and more frustrated you will want to get to the boss faster and faster. Haste will get you killed, PARTICULARLY so on platforming segments.

Regrinding the content I've already completed isn't a test of my skill - that's a matter of difficulty. Instead it tests my patience, which is a matter of frustration.

Blighttown, for example, while challenging, was fair. While I did die tons to blowdart snipers, FS made them non-respawnable, meaning suicide rushes to take out those annoying enemies was a valid tactic that allowed the player to make progress, even at the cost of death. Certainly not optimal, but I can feel I'm moving forward.

In short, I like the real difficulty, I don't like wasting my time with fake difficulty. Dark Souls could well be a mainstream game without changing any of the combat mechanics or values, just by shortening the iteration times.

That's a very valid point I never even considered. Altough I got lucky in Sen's Fortress and spotted that Bonfire from above, where you can jump down and activate it.

My personal worst offenders of "timewasting" are Sir Artorias and The Brothers Antifun in Anor Londo. Everytime you die you have to walk back to the Boss Area. You can easily run past all of the Enemies and there arent any traps around. There is absolutely NO reason you couldnt have plonked down a Bonfire next to or at least NEAR the Fog-Gates.

In terms of annoying Areas before a Boss, I think the Crystal Caves pissed me off the most. If you die to the Boss in the Area, you have to do the entire invsibile Walkway Section again, where the biggest problem isnt the Enemies being hard, its falling off all the time and having to repeat the section over and over. There are shortcuts, but if you're not using a Walktrough or somebody outright tells you, you have very bad chances of finding them without dying 50 times to trial and error.