Zero Punctuation: Demon's Souls

Axikal

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axleblaze said:
I get that everything Yahtzee says needs to be taken with an extreme grain of salt because he is paid to brutalize games. The problem is if you look through these comments they're always full of people that don't realize this and actually claim to buy games based on what he says. I mean you yourself responded to someone on this page who started rant about how bad this game was based on Yahtzee's "review". Now this is irritating enough for a large game like Uncharted 2 (which I feel very sorry for anyone that missed out on that one because of what Yahtzee said) but for a game like this that needs all the support it can get, it annoys me that anyone would be deterring people from playing this wonderful game.
You, good sir, are now getting a friend request.

Personally, I'm not very fond of the "hardcore game" genre. I shuddered at Devil May Cry, and came to the realisation that the series just wasn't in my playability scope. I moved on, and accepted that I suck at it. But what gets me is exactly what is getting you. People who use satirists as jumping points for their purchases. UC2 is a fantastic game (albeit short, and a bit shallow in some places), and anyone who didn't buy it, missed out.

Yes, Demon's Souls really could use a larger fanbase, because it stands out as a fantastic IP in the slew of annoying sequels, re-makes, re-imaginings, and half-assed attempts to capitalise on old franchises.

It's attitudes like the nay-sayers on here display that are ruining the potential for good games to succeed on the market. As I was once told: "A satisfied customer will go off and tell 10 people. A dis-satisfied customer will go off and tell 100 people."
 

Celeras

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Dec 17, 2009
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What I learned from this:

Although ZP makes sure to complain about the casualization/dumbing-down of videogames in every fricking video, he is in actuality a gigantic vagina who can not handle a game with a little bit of difficulty.
 

zondervan

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Oct 17, 2008
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3: He's a bloody satirist. Why can't any of you get that? For the love of all that is holy, someone with some common sense please speak up before the droves of trollish imbeciles drown us in their gibbering masses!

The whole, "it's comedy, he's not actually saying anything about the game" argument is something people have been pointing to since ZP started. However, just because something is satire somehow either invalidates or makes it okay for incorrect information to be presented?

I can take what Yahtzee says with a grain of salt, but the fact of the matter is that he is doing weekly reviews where he is giving viewers his opinion on a game, and his opinion will in some way influence the people watching his videos. Just look at the first page of this thread. The review was negative and now people will not buy Demon's Souls based on Yahtzee's review.

Just because he funny somehow makes what he's saying less worthwhile, less worth analyzing? If there is a problem with the review/comedy sketch it is just as much of a problem whether it is satire or not. The "its satire" argument is a complete cop-out whether you agree or you disagree with Yahtzee.
 

rdrouyn

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axleblaze said:
Axikal said:
rdrouyn said:
He did a terrible job of satirizing the game as he missed out on many points of the game that were ripe for satire. Like the fact that you get invaded by black phantoms out of nowhere which causes frustration. Also the fact that the girl that levels you up wants you to "touch the demon inside of her". Again, for anyone that played the game, it seems pretty mailed in.
I've played the game (and happen to love it, mind you), and thought he did a fine job satirising the struggles of the game. What you're talking about is PARODY, not satire. Learn the difference. And don't try to speak for everyone. Only idiots do that.

If you didn't care for the video, fine and well dandy. Not all of his videos are hits, and I personally disagreed with his "views" on Dead Space; but in the end, ZP is meant to be ENTERTAINMENT. They're not full-on reviews of games like the rest of the Escapist site has. If you want in-depth reviews, go read them on the site. ZP is a satirical video series, nothing more. You might as well go to the AVGN for "reviews" of old NES games, if you're that stupid.

I, for one, don't expect Yahtzee to crap out gold every week. I do, however, come here to be entertained. If I wanted a review of a game, I'd go read a bloody review. And I suggest you do the same.

If you're a fan of the series, then how are you not getting the point of it? That's just even more mind-boggling.
I get that everything Yahtzee says needs to be taken with an extreme grain of salt because he is paid to brutalize games. The problem is if you look through these comments they're always full of people that don't realize this and actually claim to buy games based on what he says. I mean you yourself responded to someone on this page who started rant about how bad this game was based on Yahtzee's "review". Now this is irritating enough for a large game like Uncharted 2 (which I feel very sorry for anyone that missed out on that one because of what Yahtzee said) but for a game like this that needs all the support it can get, it annoys me that anyone would be deterring people from playing this wonderful game.
The other thing is I do expect Yahtzee to play the fucking game. It's clear from the review he didn't really play it and he really could have gained some real insites and some legitimate stuff to make fun of if he had actually put more than an hour or two into it. I mean it's clear from the review he didn't even discover things like the multiplayer, leveling up or the other four levels. That's just lazy on his part.
Thanks. Exactly what I was trying to say.
 

Daedalus1942

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That's awesome. I'm one of the people that wrote to him about this game. I wrote a very long and polite e-mail, and I can't believe he actually reviewed a JRPG!
 

Majere613

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Axikal, you Sir, are a prat.
Satire, as you carefully copied from your dictionary, is the use of wit to 'deride vice, folly, etc'
To criticise aspects of a game in a way which is not true, which a lot of those criticisms are not, is not, in any way, satire. It is at best, idiocy.

Seriously, the 'oh it's meant to be funny' defense is simply not good enough. Regardless of whether or not it's intended for comic effect, ZP has an effect on how people perceive games, and I for one am getting sick of seeing some truly well-crafted, innovative games getting badmouthed for things they don't in fact do.

To reiterate a few points- dodging works fine, and is skill-based, ditto blocking. By watching the ghosts of other players and/or touching the bloodstains left when they die, you can see dangers coming. I avoided many nasty fates on the first go simply by seeing a bloodstain and watching the last moments of a predecessor. The message system works brilliantly and is an entirely new idea. Combat is based on skill and tactics, not mere pattern recognition. Whilst you can't pause the game, you can quit back to the title screen at any time and when you reload, you'll be at the last point where you gained Souls, picked up or dropped an item, gained or lost health, or a myriad of other things.

In almost three full playthroughs of the game I encountered a grand total of 0 bugs.

Seriously, DS is easily the best action-RPG I've ever played. It's genuine action, not the 'click mob till it's dead and occasionally press a button' style of Diablo or Titan Quest. It's genuinely satisfying to beat, allows you to approach situations in many different ways and even lets you pick what levels to play next and in what order.

Frankly, there are only two things you can take away from this review: Yes, DS is hard if you don't have the time or patience to learn to play it, and basing any decision on whether a game is worth playing on a ZP review is folly of the highest order.

I understand that ZP is more for fun than for information, but the problem is that it's just not presented that way. Yahtzee writes columns that purport to be informed commentary, and he rates games against each other- after all, if it's all just meant to be comedy game-baiting, why do some games get praised? It's at times like this that I feel ZP needs to decide which way to jump- either just try to be funny and slam everything for the most random reasons that'll raise a laugh, or use wit to raise serious points about what makes a game good or bad. I used to feel that the latter was the case, but the former is looking increasingly common.
 

Axikal

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axleblaze said:
Are you just trolling now? The video was nothing but him pointing out the difficulty in an annoyed manner which seems to be complaining to me.
I'm certainly not here to troll. I've better things to do than that. Like troll the IWF :p

I would have to disagree. After watching the video (a THIRD time), I still can safely say that he comes across as cheeky, rather than dis-satisfied. I will say that I do feel the final comment (the metaphor about the wall) seems very put-off-ey, but all-in-all he simply pointed out the various "newb-traps" from the first level. And really, I was expecting nothing less than that from this video.

Yes, there are other MP elements, like the Black/Blue Souls, but again, Yahtzee's not one for those things. I know, because I also like to read his articles, where he's a little less "bashy", and a little more in-depth. To be fair, I don't think it's fair to criticise him for not playing MORE of DS, considering he only has a week or so to put out a new review.

As someone who has done video editing and recording, what he has to do is time-consuming; and to expect him to play all the way through this game is absolutely ludicrous. With shorter games, like Dead Space (Impossible difficulty is beatable in under 6 hours), it's understandable that he'd be able to play all the way through. But DS requires a LOT of time, and he most certaintly doesn't have that in terms of ZP posts.
 

ResiEvalJohn

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I personally thought this was one of his better reviews recently! I love it when Yahtzee goes into his own personal experiences about what pissed him off while he is playing. It's especially funny because I thought the same thing unconciously but couldn't put it in words the way he does, I was laughing my ass off.
 

rdrouyn

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Dec 16, 2009
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zondervan said:
3: He's a bloody satirist. Why can't any of you get that? For the love of all that is holy, someone with some common sense please speak up before the droves of trollish imbeciles drown us in their gibbering masses!

The whole, "it's comedy, he's not actually saying anything about the game" argument is something people have been pointing to since ZP started. However, just because something is satire somehow either invalidates or makes it okay for incorrect information to be presented?

I can take what Yahtzee says with a grain of salt, but the fact of the matter is that he is doing weekly reviews where he is giving viewers his opinion on a game that will in some way influence them. Just look at the first page of this thread. The review was negative and now people will not buy Demon's Souls based on Yahtzee's review.

Just because he funny somehow makes what he's saying less worthwhile, less worth analyzing? If there is a problem with the review/comedy sketch it is just as much of a problem whether it is satire or not. The "its satire" argument is a complete cop-out whether you agree or you disagree with Yahtzee.
It is a total copout for mailing it in. He's made more insightful reviews of terrible games such as Fable and a great game comes out which I was expecting for him to eviscerate and he doesnt even bother to play it. If he wants to not be a critic he should stop calling himself one.
 

Nomanslander

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I remember when Yahtzee reviewed Stalker: Clear Sky, and mentioned heavily on how hard that game was, plus buggy and somewhat broken.

What I'm wonder is why is it he seemed to have liked that game and not this one if the difficulty level was his major complaint?
 

Axikal

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Oct 21, 2009
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Majere613 said:
Axikal, you Sir, are a prat.
Satire, as you carefully copied from your dictionary, is the use of wit to 'deride vice, folly, etc'
To criticise aspects of a game in a way which is not true, which a lot of those criticisms are not, is not, in any way, satire. It is at best, idiocy.

Seriously, the 'oh it's meant to be funny' defense is simply not good enough. Regardless of whether or not it's intended for comic effect, ZP has an effect on how people perceive games, and I for one am getting sick of seeing some truly well-crafted, innovative games getting badmouthed for things they don't in fact do.

To reiterate a few points- dodging works fine, and is skill-based, ditto blocking. By watching the ghosts of other players and/or touching the bloodstains left when they die, you can see dangers coming. I avoided many nasty fates on the first go simply by seeing a bloodstain and watching the last moments of a predecessor. The message system works brilliantly and is an entirely new idea. Combat is based on skill and tactics, not mere pattern recognition. Whilst you can't pause the game, you can quit back to the title screen at any time and when you reload, you'll be at the last point where you gained Souls, picked up or dropped an item, gained or lost health, or a myriad of other things.

In almost three full playthroughs of the game I encountered a grand total of 0 bugs.

Seriously, DS is easily the best action-RPG I've ever played. It's genuine action, not the 'click mob till it's dead and occasionally press a button' style of Diablo or Titan Quest. It's genuinely satisfying to beat, allows you to approach situations in many different ways and even lets you pick what levels to play next and in what order.

Frankly, there are only two things you can take away from this review: Yes, DS is hard if you don't have the time or patience to learn to play it, and basing any decision on whether a game is worth playing on a ZP review is folly of the highest order.

I understand that ZP is more for fun than for information, but the problem is that it's just not presented that way. Yahtzee writes columns that purport to be informed commentary, and he rates games against each other- after all, if it's all just meant to be comedy game-baiting, why do some games get praised? It's at times like this that I feel ZP needs to decide which way to jump- either just try to be funny and slam everything for the most random reasons that'll raise a laugh, or use wit to raise serious points about what makes a game good or bad. I used to feel that the latter was the case, but the former is looking increasingly common.
I've noticed that he tends to blend the two together in some of his videos. But in the end, people seem to be taking what he says so close to heart, that they're missing the entire point of the series. Hell, if I were to react the way most of the commenters were, I'd flay Yahtzee alive for his Dead Space "review". But, again, I'm not daft enough to see the series as anything more than hyperbole, with traces of honesty. Again, look at the works of the Angry Video Game Nerd, and The Nostalgia Critic. Both review things they love and hate, and do so with excess. That's the brand of comedy they utilise to make their shows stand out.

There's nothing bull in that. It's simply their gimmick. And Yahtzee's is no different.

His articles are a little less satirical, and more in-line with who he really is, and how he really thinks. If more people read those, and stopped looking to Yahtzee for their next "review", maybe the collective intelligence of the community would sky-rocket. Then again, I might just be able to get through the Swamp 1-1 level without dying. Again... (total DS n00b ftl).

I still am not seeing how DS was bad-mouthed to the degree you guys are proclaiming. I found it to simply be a harmless stab at the game; and it honestly made me feel as if he did like the game, but felt like expounding on the sheer inanity of the game's difficulty curve. Hell, I won't fault you guys for feeling differently about it, but people need to stop taking ZP as seriously as they do. There are MANY gaming outlets that put out reviews of games; and anyone using ZP as their main source of information should be immediately tossed to a Storm Beast.

Without any arrows. Or spells. And no way to escape.

And just briefly going back over your comment, you do raise valid points. I do feel that sometimes he takes his shtick to a misguided level, but, I also find a bit of charm in it; and just shrug it off.

So if any of that makes me a prat, I'm down with that.
 

Azaraxzealot

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Axikal said:
Azaraxzealot said:
And whenever an RPG that tries to copy the styles of American and European RPGs (by incorporating strong medieval themes and using a shit-load of european accents or by just simply NOT using turn-based combat and fucking ludicrous stories with characters who have absolutely no depth) is published by a Japanese company... it never goes over well (as far as I've seen).
Demon's Souls is considered an advancement in modern RPGs, and is highly sought after in all three regions. Going so far as to having people in the UK start petitions to bring the game to their demographic. What the hell are YOU smoking?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/demonssoul/review.html
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/demons-souls-review
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/demons-souls-review

et al.

In summary: You're an idiot.
look, people are fucking idiots, Fable 2 got GREAT reviews AND it sold millions of copies, but what makes it any worse than Dragon Age: Origins or this game? KOTOR was also geat, as was Borderlands and Dragon Age: Origins and Dead Rising (not so much, because it had the crappy shooting mechanics and the worst aiming and hit detection system of ANY game i've ever played which is because it was developed by capcom, which doesn't know good hit detection and aiming from a cheeseburger) was hell of fun, and it's obvious from this review by ZP and from all the gameplay that i've seen and played that it has the stench of japanese gameplay (not an insult to the japanese, but to many, not all, of their videogame mechanics). what i mean by this is that the game has terrible and awkward controls, and it has a broken save system that is unfriendly to anyone but the most hardcore of the hardcore. Obviously Yahtzee hated the same things, and I'd be fine with this game if it fucking worked.
 

Axikal

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rdrouyn said:
zondervan said:
Just because he funny somehow makes what he's saying less worthwhile, less worth analyzing? If there is a problem with the review/comedy sketch it is just as much of a problem whether it is satire or not. The "its satire" argument is a complete cop-out whether you agree or you disagree with Yahtzee.
It is a total copout for mailing it in. He's made more insightful reviews of terrible games such as Fable and a great game comes out which I was expecting for him to eviscerate and he doesnt even bother to play it. If he wants to not be a critic he should stop calling himself one.
I'll simply point you to his Wolfenstein "review".
 

rdrouyn

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Dec 16, 2009
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Axikal said:
rdrouyn said:
zondervan said:
Just because he funny somehow makes what he's saying less worthwhile, less worth analyzing? If there is a problem with the review/comedy sketch it is just as much of a problem whether it is satire or not. The "its satire" argument is a complete cop-out whether you agree or you disagree with Yahtzee.
It is a total copout for mailing it in. He's made more insightful reviews of terrible games such as Fable and a great game comes out which I was expecting for him to eviscerate and he doesnt even bother to play it. If he wants to not be a critic he should stop calling himself one.
I'll simply point you to his Wolfenstein "review".
Yeah, I guess I was one of the many that didn't play Wolfenstein. Most of the games that I've played that he has reviewed have been spot on, notably Prototype, Valkyria Chronicles, RE4 and Uncharted.
 

axleblaze

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Axikal said:
axleblaze said:
Are you just trolling now? The video was nothing but him pointing out the difficulty in an annoyed manner which seems to be complaining to me.
I'm certainly not here to troll. I've better things to do than that. Like troll the IWF :p

I would have to disagree. After watching the video (a THIRD time), I still can safely say that he comes across as cheeky, rather than dis-satisfied. I will say that I do feel the final comment (the metaphor about the wall) seems very put-off-ey, but all-in-all he simply pointed out the various "newb-traps" from the first level. And really, I was expecting nothing less than that from this video.

Yes, there are other MP elements, like the Black/Blue Souls, but again, Yahtzee's not one for those things. I know, because I also like to read his articles, where he's a little less "bashy", and a little more in-depth. To be fair, I don't think it's fair to criticise him for not playing MORE of DS, considering he only has a week or so to put out a new review.

As someone who has done video editing and recording, what he has to do is time-consuming; and to expect him to play all the way through this game is absolutely ludicrous. With shorter games, like Dead Space (Impossible difficulty is beatable in under 6 hours), it's understandable that he'd be able to play all the way through. But DS requires a LOT of time, and he most certaintly doesn't have that in terms of ZP posts.
Sorry for calling you a troll :p
Anyways, I think that while he does simply state alot of newb traps he does so in a highly derisive tone indicating that he thinks they're all unreasonable and bad.
But I think it is fair to complain that he didn't play it more. I don't mind that he didn't beat it. What I do mind is it seems he played it for an hour or two TOPs. It's clear he never got out of the first area. I'm pretty sure he didn't fo back to the Nexus after he beat Phallanx in fact which means he never even got exposed to the four other areas, the multiplayer or even leveling up his character. He simply barely played the game at all and then presented a review of it. No matter how satirical the review is, he still didn't play it enough to represent it accurately or fairly which is his fucking job. If your getting paid to play a game you should beat or put about 20 hours in, whichever comes first. "I don't like this game so fuck it" is not acceptable when your being paid to play it.
 

zondervan

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If your getting paid to play a game you should beat or put about 20 hours in, whichever comes first. "I don't like this game so fuck it" is not acceptable when your being paid to play it.
Could not have said it better myself.
 

axleblaze

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Azaraxzealot said:
Axikal said:
Azaraxzealot said:
And whenever an RPG that tries to copy the styles of American and European RPGs (by incorporating strong medieval themes and using a shit-load of european accents or by just simply NOT using turn-based combat and fucking ludicrous stories with characters who have absolutely no depth) is published by a Japanese company... it never goes over well (as far as I've seen).
Demon's Souls is considered an advancement in modern RPGs, and is highly sought after in all three regions. Going so far as to having people in the UK start petitions to bring the game to their demographic. What the hell are YOU smoking?

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/demonssoul/review.html
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/demons-souls-review
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/demons-souls-review

et al.

In summary: You're an idiot.
look, people are fucking idiots, Fable 2 got GREAT reviews AND it sold millions of copies, but what makes it any worse than Dragon Age: Origins or this game? KOTOR was also geat, as was Borderlands and Dragon Age: Origins and Dead Rising (not so much, because it had the crappy shooting mechanics and the worst aiming and hit detection system of ANY game i've ever played which is because it was developed by capcom, which doesn't know good hit detection and aiming from a cheeseburger) was hell of fun, and it's obvious from this review by ZP and from all the gameplay that i've seen and played that it has the stench of japanese gameplay (not an insult to the japanese, but to many, not all, of their videogame mechanics). what i mean by this is that the game has terrible and awkward controls, and it has a broken save system that is unfriendly to anyone but the most hardcore of the hardcore. Obviously Yahtzee hated the same things, and I'd be fine with this game if it fucking worked.
No. your wrong. The controls are great. Have a nice day :)
PS: japenese games have broken controls? Ninja Gaiden? DMC? Zelda? Mario? Really some of the best controlling games ever have been japanese!
 

Lord_Seth

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Jun 19, 2008
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Majere613 said:
Whilst you can't pause the game, you can quit back to the title screen at any time and when you reload, you'll be at the last point where you gained Souls, picked up or dropped an item, gained or lost health, or a myriad of other things.
While you may have made some legitimate points in the rest of your message, I'm sorry, but being unable to pause a game somehow is quite frankly inexcusable.